BPD wants another baby

[zodi 2010]

My SO wants another baby.  I told her I am not comfortable with how strong our relationship is so we shouldn't have another baby right now.  She hates this.  It makes her feel like I don't really love her.  To me it seems like the only time she wants sex is when she might get pregnant.  We have had sex at other times when pregnancy isn't likely but to me these aren't frequent enough to count.  She counts them and specifically remembers each encounter.  We have been arguing about another baby a lot.  I don't think she meets a lot of my needs sexually because I am a much more sexual person and she struggles with sexual issues due to her past. In order to get her to meet more of my needs I told her I wouldn't impregnate her until she let me take nude photos of her that she wasn't allowed to delete.  She was very upset by this.  Accused me of blackmailing and choosing my sexual needs over the life of our child.  Needless to say she did not cooperate.  She was upset for a long time which caused a lot of issues.  She cut herself and needed stitches.  She seems to have lost all joy from her life.  She told me to get out.  We discussed the situation and I became agreeable to getting pics of her when she is pregnant.  She chooses the pic I get to keep.  It is confusing for me to have her struggle with any sexual thing.  I have read a lot about promiscuous BPD but not too much on the opposite.  She seems almost asexual.  All things sexual are a real challenge for her.  How can I help her become more sexual without harming her?  I feel like I need to be true to my sexual needs as well.  Can anyone give me some I sight on this situation?  Where did I go wrong and what do I do now?  How can we both be happy?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Wrongturn1]

zodi:  I can relate to some of your main points.  Before we got married, my uBPDw was extremely sexual with me.  Then after we got married, and even more after we had kids, she became significantly less sexual, making me wait for weeks at a time on a regular basis.  I don't even have it bad compared to a lot of the stories I've read around here - some members of this forum have not had sex with their SO in YEARS.  On the positive side, my uBPDw tends to be fairly sexual for 4 to 5 days per month, around the time she ovulates and then the day before starting her period.  I had a vasectomy 8 years ago, so no additional kids for us.

As a general rule, BPDs are not good parents.  They may be abusive (emotionally or physically), neglectful, distant, put their kids through the rollercoaster of painting them alternatingly black or white, etc.  The BPD parent may be suicidal, giving no assurance that they will be there in the future for the family. 

Set aside your desire for nude photos.  Is your SO a good parent to her existing child(ren)?  Would it be a responsible act for you to give her another child?  Would that be in the best interests of the child-to-be?  Think of the child  and the child's wellbeing - this should be your primary consideration in deciding whether or not to impregnate your SO.

Now take up your desire for nude photos.  Think about whether that desire is at a reasonable level... .sure, most guys (myself included) would enjoy having a library of nude photos of our SO/spouse (wife in my case).  But for most people, that desire is not so intense that we would consider creating a new life / child as a means to an end to obtain those nude photos.  Does your level of desire for the nude photos seem healthy to you?

Food for thought.

[zodi 2010]

My desire is just fueled by my frustration with her.  I never know what will be a problem and what will be fine.  I need to find middle ground and get her to meet me there.  Sexually and in general.  She has a difficult time with many situations.  She takes everything so personally.  She has told me she would love to be able to laugh things off but hasn't found a way to do that yet.  She is in therapy but spends large chunks of the time arguing with the T.  It's been 8 months and no significant changes or breakthroughs have happened.  She was medicated but gave up on that and stopped taking the meds without consent because she does what she wants not what anyone tells her to do.  The whole thing is frustrating.  She does want to get better but she doesn't want it to be hard on her.  She is waiting for her moment of clarity when it will all make sense to her and she will be able to understand how she should respond and what people's intentions truly are... .thank you for the response it is food for thought and put a different perspective in my mind.

[Wrongturn1]

"She takes everything so personally."  Yes indeed, that's at the core of BPD it seems. 

For someone deciding to stay in a long-term intimate relationship with a person with BPD, the reality seems to be that you have to accept that the sexual dimension of the relationship is unlikely to be normal or healthy on a consistent basis.

[zodi 2010]

I am hopeful therapy will free her sexually.  It is something both of us want.  We also hope therapy improves her internalizing everything.  I'm optimistic that her new T is one that she can work with and start making some positive progress.  Thank you for your thoughts. 

[unicorn2014]

Modi are you married to her?

It sounds to me like you have different needs but since this is the improving board I can't really say too much. May I ask what level of commitment you have in the relationship?

[zodi 2010]

We are married.  I've promised to never leave her is my level of commitment.  Last night I proposed a new deal to her.  I want her to stop hurting herself, then I'll feel comfortable having another child.  She has been in therapy for 8 months and IMO hasn't improved.  She says she is trying and if I believe in her we would get pregnant and she will have improved by the time the baby is born.  I told her she would be overwhelmed by two children even tho I don't know that for sure.  She was crying but I was holding her.  I suppose I'm trying to motivate her to change.  I have told her she's a good mom.  Should I show faith in her and proceed with the pregnancy attempt?

[blackbirdsong]

We are married.  I've promised to never leave her is my level of commitment.  Last night I proposed a new deal to her.  I want her to stop hurting herself, then I'll feel comfortable having another child.  She has been in therapy for 8 months and IMO hasn't improved.  She says she is trying and if I believe in her we would get pregnant and she will have improved by the time the baby is born.  I told her she would be overwhelmed by two children even tho I don't know that for sure.  She was crying but I was holding her.  I suppose I'm trying to motivate her to change.  I have told her she's a good mom.  Should I show faith in her and proceed with the pregnancy attempt?

You don't have a baby with a purpose to change something. You have a baby as an extension of the current stable phase in your life, as an extension of your happiness. At least, this is my perspective, when I would like to have a kid. Pregnancy shouldn't be used as a proof of something (like trust in someone)

What is your view about this? If it is similar to mine, do you think that you are in that phase of your life?

[Sunfl0wer]

How can I help her become more sexual without harming her?  I feel like I need to be true to my sexual needs as well.  Can anyone give me some I sight on this situation?  Where did I go wrong and what do I do now?  How can we both be happy?

Hi zodi,

Fwiw, after reading around here, it seems more common that partners become less sexual after having a child.  

I am not exactly sure I understand your thought process in having a child?  You mean to motivate her to get well?  Hopefully others around here who have been there/done that will chime in.

It is my understanding that any extrinsic motivation for a pwBPD to get well is not lasting.  Little surprise there... .extrinsic motivators are not generally lasting with most of us.

Please do not use a child (or a child that has not yet conceived) to meet the needs of your SO. Many of us children of pwBPD have been used all our lives to meet our parents 'needs'... . Those of us that are here and able to be articulate about it... .many are less fortunate.

While I realize you want your wife to get better... .

Do you think maybe right now that you want it more than she does?

Where are you at with the lessons here?

Do you have some professional support?

You sound like you are in a situation that has potential to be disastrous... .if not already.

[unicorn2014]

We are married.  I've promised to never leave her is my level of commitment.  Last night I proposed a new deal to her.  I want her to stop hurting herself, then I'll feel comfortable having another child.  She has been in therapy for 8 months and IMO hasn't improved.  She says she is trying and if I believe in her we would get pregnant and she will have improved by the time the baby is born.  I told her she would be overwhelmed by two children even tho I don't know that for sure.  She was crying but I was holding her.  I suppose I'm trying to motivate her to change.  I have told her she's a good mom.  Should I show faith in her and proceed with the pregnancy attempt?

No you should not, you married her, you showed faith in her. How old is she and how old is your child? Those would be the facts you would use to determine the size and spacing of your family.

[zodi 2010]

Thanks for all the responses.  It's a lot to consider.  She is in her 30's and the son we have together is 1.  We both want children.  We wanted children before her illness became worse.  I guess I just need her to have better control before we add to our family.  Out son is delightful and she is working on her interactions with him.  She is aware that certain behaviors are harmful and is in therapy to change them.  She doesn't seem to want to stop cutting.  She says she does but she doesn't do any of the DBT skills to help her.  She says she likes it and nothing else gives her the same release.  However, she also says she wants to stop.  She cut deep enough to need stitches and it scared her yet she has continued cutting.  She was mostly stable before we were married.  Then she got a little worse.  After our son was born things really started to get bad.  So we had planned for several babies but due to her behavior I'm struggling to feel like we can handle another one.  Another problem is I feel she only wants sex when she might get pregnant so I feel used.  She says it's not that way and we have been intimate at other times but I just feel like that's all she wants me for.  She really struggles sexually due to childhood trauma.  I know I need to be more sensitive to her unique needs but it's difficult for me.  Thanks for all the advice this is all overwhelming to me.

[unicorn2014]

Hi. I believe self harm would be a reason for social services to step in. I would strongly recommend against having another child at this time. You might have to accept that you are going to have one child. I had to make this decision as well, that was while still committed to staying.

[zodi 2010]

Sunflower

I don't have support.  I've been to see her old counselor twice but haven't been invited to see her new therapist.  I do want another child with her I just need her and our relationship to be in a better place.  She is high functioning.  Has a steady job, takes care of the majority of her responsibilities, maintains family relations even though she believes my family hates her.  She just struggles with intimate concerns and social situations.  She becomes crushed with negative emotions and resorts to self harm.  She also gets a foul mouth and becomes upset over situations I don't think she should but she tells me how it made her feel and responds according to her feelings.  She is very impulsive.  She doesn't see a problem with a lot of her behaviors.  I gang up on her with my opinion and her sisters to make her see that I make sense.  I'm hopeful therapy can help even her out and we can move forward with our family planning.

[zodi 2010]

Her therapists are monitoring the self harm and none have recommended social services.  They have discussed the effect of it on the child and that might help her commit to stopping the behavior.  She's a good mom.  There are some rough spots she is working on but overall she's a good mom. 

[LOTR]

She sounds like she is trying.  That must feel good.  It also sounds like she at least has some self awareness of her behavior.  If you already planned for a baby and it is something you both want, I think you should move forward with your family.  Im a recovered BPD and I dont think it is fair to deny parenthood to someone just because they have a few struggles.  Im sure if you support her and she is getting help everything will work out.  Plus you stated she already has one baby and you called her a good mom.  If she can do well with one y not 2?

[C.Stein]

She was mostly stable before we were married.  Then she got a little worse.  After our son was born things really started to get bad.  So we had planned for several babies but due to her behavior I'm struggling to feel like we can handle another one.

I feel it is a good idea to hesitate here considering what has happened up to this point.  I commend your wife and her efforts to correct the damaging behavior.  That said until there is significant improvement I would continue to hesitate.  If the first child caused her to dysregulate more frequently and more severely I think it is a safe assumption it will get even worse with another child.  Don't go into something like this with the hope it will get better, or having another child will fix the problem ... .it won't.  I feel you need to stabilize the relationship and she needs to find stability within herself as well, not only for your existing child but for any future children.

[LOTR]

What if he is withholding the baby just to manipulate/control her?  He is using the child like a tool.  Im glad you are commending the wife.  In many of these threads the efforts of the pwBPD seem to become lost or undervalued. Is it fair to go back on something that was already agreed upon?  Could this reneging on the agreement be causing her distress issues?  Maybe he started telling her after the baby was born that it would be the only one she would get.  She could have become upset over that especially if she was expecting and wanting more.  How do we know how sever her behavior is?  Maybe it's not that serious.  Has she attempted suicide?  Is she violent?  I don't feel like we have the whole picture.

[Circle]

Zodi,

Ultimately, YOU have to make this decision.

I feel that one baby in a relationship with a BPD person, would be enough! You have enough on your plate don't you? Also, think long term; there are already serious issues that are hindering you from feeling complete; why make your life more difficult than it already is? Lots of people use children as some sort of way of mending their lives. YOU need to decide what YOU think; not what your partner wants.

If you want to avoid having any more children, a vasectomy is a safe and reliable way to make sure that you are in control of reproduction. At the least, wear a condomn and don't ejaculate in her, if you are unsure how you feel about this. It is not selfish to take care of your own interests; it is Survival!

It sounds like you both Love each other a lot; that's great! However, love for each other should not be contingent on outside variables, such as whether or not she has her quantity of children filled.

[LOTR]

That's pretty harsh.  As a pwBPD I don't think ur being fair at all.  She does have a right to have a say in having more children or not.  To just have surgery to deny her seems so outlandish and evil!  She's a person with feelings and concerns you can't just take away her right to have input.  Honest to god what a heartless post, circle.  Self centered and hateful.

[zodi 2010]

I don't think I should just high Jack the reproductive decision.  How would she feel about no longer having  any input?  Im certain she would desreg over it.  No doubt this would seriously harm our relationship.  How will I know when she is in a good enough place to become pregnant?  Does anyone have experience with a pwBPD who went to therapy and actually changed?  Was the change permanent?  Are there signs so I know she is on the right track?  Looking for hope.

[Sunfl0wer]

I did try to find an article that actually helped a couple "decide if they are ready" to have a baby.  I did not go searching for one that sounded negative.  Yet, there is helpful info in this so I thought worthy to share.

6 Terrible Reasons for You to Have A Child

1. To have someone who loves you.

I’ve had a number of women, all of whom had babies very young, make this confession. In most cases they explain that having a baby seemed to offer a respite from the pain of unloving parents or rejecting relationships with lovers or spouses. One woman reflected on the decision she made many decades ago to have a child on her own without the participation of the father who was basically a one-night stand. She called it “the most selfish thing I have ever done.” Another remarked that “children shouldn’t have children,” acknowledging that she had neither the emotional stability nor the maturity to truly mother the child she had. The real problem, of course, is that the burden of supplying love is shifted onto the child who is supposed to be emotional first aid for the parent. That is a recipe for disaster.

2. Because someone expects you to.

It doesn’t matter who that someone is—a parent, a spouse, or societal pressure. Having a child is a decision you need to own on every level because it is an enormous commitment. The work that good parenting requires is far too intense and demanding to be inspired by anyone’s expectations other than your own. People who stumble into parenthood this way usually do so without taking a personal inventory of their own needs or, more importantly, their own abilities to care for and be responsive to someone who utterly depends on them. The children of these parents often report that while their physical needs were taken care of—yes, there was a roof over their heads, clothes on their back, food on the table—their emotional needs were largely ignored.

3. To fit in.

Yes, some women actually admit that they were afraid that others would somehow shun or stigmatize them if they decided not to have a child. Perhaps they would seem “less than” women with children. If we are honest with ourselves about so-called cultural “norms,” we would recognize that this is actually a legitimate worry for many. Still, it isn’t a healthy motivation to commit to parenting. One woman who, in conjunction with her husband, decided not to have children, observed: “I am one of four sisters and the only one without kids. That set me apart, and not in a good way either, especially since I was capable of having them. Both my parents and my siblings saw my choice as ‘proof’ of how selfish and self-involved I was. When my parents died, I received far less than my sisters did and the will even noted that I didn’t need as much since it was just me alone.”

4. To give your life purpose.

While it’s true that raising a child can give your life focus and purpose, it’s a lousy reason to have a child. You are the only person who can define what gives your life meaning. It’s not an obligation that can be fulfilled by another human being, not even one you give birth to. This reason (and the next) can easily become enmeshment—which involves denying the child the room she needs to become herself and totally ignoring her emotional boundaries—or micromanagement. A child’s job isn’t to make your life look better or richer than it actually is.

5. To establish your legacy.

Dynasty, protection of material goods and assets, and a need to leave something behind in the wake of mortality have all, historically, been reasons to have a child. But that doesn’t give them any more emotional or psychological validity. Like those who have children to give their lives purpose, mothers concerned with legacy see children as extensions of themselves and, as reported by many daughters, put enormous pressure on their children to reflect well on them. In this scenario, what the children want—and, for that matter, what they feel and think—are largely ignored. As one daughter told me, “It was hugely important to my mother that I be admired so that she could be admired by others for having raised me. She picked my clothes, my friends, even the college I went to, based on how ‘enviable’ it would seem to her social circle. I became a lawyer because she wanted me to. When I finally realized I hated practicing law, my mother freaked out, especially when I went from this high-paying, prestigious profession to, in her opinion, the lowly work of teaching in public school. She mentions it constantly and belittles me for my choices.” Fathers often have children for the same reasons, as one adult son, one of five children, recounted: “The pressure on all of my father’s sons to succeed was enormous because any slip, anything less than ‘first rate,’ reflected badly on him. It was true on the athletic field, in the classroom, socially, and, when we became adults, in terms of earning power. He didn’t love me for who I was; he only cared about reflected glory. I pledged never to do that to my own children whom I love for who they are.”

In the world of self-help, these parents often earn the label of narcissists. But no matter how you label it, the emotional wounds they inflict on their children are many.

6. To keep your marriage together (or to get someone to marry you in the first place).

Despite all the articles in the popular press, all the studies, and all the cautionary tales presented in novels and movies, people still appear to believe that a baby can heal a relationship already under stress. Of course, nothing could be farther from the truth. And while disagreements over child-rearing aren’t among the top three reasons people divorce—those remain infidelity, drug or alcohol abuse, and money—they are extremely common. Here’s the thing: Just as lovers wrongly believe they’ll simply smooth over disagreements about money, couples tend not to discuss their views about raising children ahead of time. As one man told me: “I wouldn’t say that our fights about our son were the main reason for our divorce but I would say that they were the proverbial straw-that-broke-the-camel’s back. My ex-wife consistently refused to discipline him in childhood and then adolescence and when, in early adulthood, he was unable to take responsibility for his actions, she simply turned a blind eye. I just couldn’t accept that.”

A young woman in her early forties, now the divorced mother of an eight-year-old, reflected: “The tensions in our marriage were already evident but, looking back, I don’t think either of us was really ready to get honest about what was going on. We’d been married seven years and were living more and more parallel lives. We weren’t fighting but we weren’t connecting either and I don’t think we understood it. When our son was born, my focus shifted even more, away from the marriage. It only took a few years for it all to unravel, unfortunately.”

And then, of course, there’s the child for whom the parents “have to” marry. One adult daughter shared the following story:

“Even though my parents stayed married and went on to have three other children, their attitude toward me was always different. I was the one who’d ‘robbed’ my mother of her youth and her college education when she got pregnant junior year. I was the one who put so much pressure on my father when he wasn’t ready to take it on. I am now in my late forties and they still haven’t really ‘forgiven’ me for something I had nothing to do with. Unless, of course, you can be blamed for being born.”

[Circle]

Honest to god what a heartless post, circle.  Self centered and hateful.

I believe that you are the one being judgemental, LOTR. I don't really appreciate being called 'self-centered'. Or, 'hateful'. This is an open forum for people to express their opinions. The o.p. can take or leave whatever they choose. That's the idea, -to be honest-, express your REAL viewpoint, and have people take away what they want, and leave what they don't want.

[zodi 2010]

I don't know her reason for wanting children.  She told me when we met she was interested in starting a family.  She was very blatant and upfront with what she was looking for.  After 3 dates I moved in.  We decided to get married before we had known each other for 2 months.  We were married within 7 months of meeting.  Because we lived together so soon, I really felt we got to know each other well and we connected and wanted the same things in life.  However, I really don't think I ever asked her why she wanted kids... .maybe she doesn't even know.

[LOTR]

Circle

I'm just doing what you said... .giving my honest opinion and you can take or leave what you want from it.  The mentally ill have rights and are ppl too.  A lot of ppl on this forum forget that and discussions get lopsided.  I have BPD and what I took from your post is just what I commented.  How could I live with myself if your words went unchallenged... .I'd feel liked I had agreed with you.  You are allowed to state your opinion just like I'm allowed to state mine.  Don't take it personally I'm not saying you are hateful and self centered... .I'm saying your post is.

[Circle]

Zodi,

I am not replying to your last post. Just entering one more thought of mine into the conversation. Then, I have to log-out and get back to work.

I do think it's suspect that she is really only willing to have sex, when pregnancy is a focal-point. I'm not saying that she isn't worth being with. What I am saying, is that people with BPD, use manipulation as their method. That is a well known FACT on these boards.The more you read, the more you will realize this.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't be with her. It just means, that it's best to come to decisions, because you want to; not because they manipulated you into doing something. So, be careful when you are having sex, unless you KNOW that you want a child for your own reasons also. Sunfl0wer's list looks like it would well be worth reading!

[zodi 2010]

Thanks for all the input even LOTR as I appreciate all viewpoints.  This is an important decision.  I don't believe my wife is capable of manipulation.  She is just trying to meet her needs and wants as best she can.  She is in no way a sexual person.  She can barely initiate sex.  If I don't respond to her within a few minutes she gives up and rolls over so I just can't see this as being manipulative.  She dies try to tell me another baby is a good idea and how our sin deserves to be a big brother... .

All of your posts are well thought out and informative.  I need to find a way to have a deep discussion with my wife about why she wants another baby and how we will know when the time is right.  I know one if her counselors asked her about it and told my wife she didn't have good reasons for wanting another baby.  She was of course horrified to hear this.  We discussed it some and I was able to calm her as we both  spoke badly about the counselor and her "idea" of good reasons.  I'm still on the fence... .I need to have that in-depth conversation with BPDw.  I'll post an update when I can gather more information from her.  Again thanks for all the posts and the variety of opinions shared.  It really has opened my eyes.

[C.Stein]

Zodi,

While you and your wife are the ones who choose to have a child that choice needs to come with the knowledge that you can provide a stable and healthy environment for that child to grow in.  This is a decision you both have to make together and both agree you can provide this without any hesitation. 

It is your responsibility as potential parents to be the voice of any child you might decide to have.  This is the overriding consideration to any want/need of the parents.  In other words having a child and hoping things will be OK is not the responsible thing to do.  Know without a doubt you can provide the necessary and appropriate environment for another child before you go down this road again.

[Wrongturn1]

I agree wholeheartedly with C.Stein here.  While the desires of you and your wife are important considerations in the decision whether to have another child, it is equally important (if not more important) to consider the well-being of the child you would be creating and putting into that situation. 

If your home environment is not a healthy one and if one or both parents is likely to create a chaotic or abusive environment, it would be wrong to knowingly introduce a new baby into that sort of situation in my opinion. 

You and your wife are adults and have the power to choose whether you stay in the relationship / home / environment.  A child does not have a choice.  A child does not have that kind of power and ability for self-protection, so it is your responsibility to consider the well-being of that child who you would be foisting into an unhealthy situation.

[lbjnltx]

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