First MC session gave me hope that there are good intentions

[formflier]

So, I'm still processing.  But overall a very good, respectful session.

A lot of it was getting to know you kind of stuff.  Very happy with the counselor we have.  PhD level guy.  Been around for long time.

We did a lot of disclosure on our intake forms.  My guess is that several pastors/counselors have talked and compared notes and realized that our situation needed a "senior guy" vice a newbie.

So, no fireworks.

I concentrated on listening and being present vice "defending".  Actually neither of us really accused each other of anything or were defensive. 

Most of the session was spent "getting to know each other" and taking a big picture look at how we got to where we are now.  Very little time was spent on where we are now.

Agreement on why we got married and that first 15 years was stable/happy and we would want those back in a heartbeat.

General agreement that the flood was huge turning point in the way we related.

CPS was big issue for my wife and another turning point.  She believes that I called CPS because our baby walked into the road.  Denied ever spanking in anger, EVER.  She was calm as she talked about this.

I was calm as I explained my point of view that I was uncomfortable with corporal punishment and that she refused to stop.  That in MC I said I would be satisfied with a written agreement to abstain from corporal punishment until all parties were willing to resume and that after she refused, I was not comfortable with the situation and involved CPS.

We left that issue as something to obviously discuss more in the future.

General agreement that things had gotten much better since the TS that we did that summer.  This disagreement about where we are right now, although we didn't get too much into that.

Here is the interesting part.  I owned my PTSD stuff and my part of the dynamic.  My wife agreed that I had that part of it right.

My wife owned that she "made herself crazy" trying to figure out what was going on with me (where was I, who was I with, etc etc) and would "rant" (her word) to try and figure stuff out.  That as she "talked it out" it would sort of make sense to her and she would get to a better place.

Counselor was very direct with her and asked if that was a Biblical response.  She said no.  He asked is she would like to conquer that and turn that over to God.  She said she would. 


If was a bit over an hour.  We went out to dinner after that and discussed politics, some stuff she saw of FB, and didn't talk about counseling at all.

Thoughts?

FF

[KateCat]

Very encouraging beginning, formflier. 

Is your wife already invested with this particular church / congregation / group of people to the degree that she may be able to tolerate the stress that will inevitably enter into this counseling process as it develops?

[Grey Kitty]

  Everything you've said about your wife makes me believe she wants to do the right things, and I'm glad it came out here.

Yay for step one in the right direction!

I hope this gives you more energy to put your best efforts, including what you've learned here into practice.

[Ceruleanblue]

It sounds like it was very promising. I hate those sessions where it's all blame, and nothing gets accomplished. Those are the worst. We have MC tomorrow, and I have a feeling I'm in for one of those, where I get blamed again. It's usually at this point of MC where he starts to try to triangulate the therapist, and I gave him ammo today, after objecting to his son "borrowing" more stuff.

I guess I'll take a page from your book and just not defend. He can rant or say what he wants, but I'll state my truth, and let it lie there.

It does sound as if your wife really wants things to improve, and is willing to do some work.

[formflier]

Very encouraging beginning, formflier.  

Is your wife already invested with this particular church / congregation / group of people to the degree that she may be able to tolerate the stress that will inevitably enter into this counseling process as it develops?

I hope so and I believe so.

Part of this explanation is a grump from me and part shows how invested she is.

When we moved here we had reasonable conversations about finding a church home that we could all be happy with.  We have visited other churches, but have been consistent in going to this one.  So, on some days we go to church twice.  Visit one place and then catch the service at "my wife's place" (or the counseling place, whatever you want to call it).

I continue to be frustrated about finding a solid church (good teaching) with "traditional" service (hymn book and organ) vice "contemporary" (rock and roll concert followed by a sermon).  Hmm, anyone detect formflier's judgmentalism there,    

Anyway, my grump is that she describes to "everyone", the counselor included, that "my wife's church" is "our" church or "our families" church.  I don't argue with her in public about that.  In private I have discussed or made clear that I believe we are still looking.

It's clear my wife wants to be at this place.

Next "milestone" is our first "homework" assignment.  We should get it via email at some point later today and have to turn it in on Monday.  Late Monday afternoon is our regular weekly counseling.

FF

[flourdust]

It sounds like it went about as well as possible. A positive start. The road ahead is likely to be bumpy, but if the majority of your MC experiences are positive for both of you, that would be a good sign.

[formflier]

It sounds like it went about as well as possible. A positive start. The road ahead is likely to be bumpy, but if the majority of your MC experiences are positive for both of you, that would be a good sign.

I look at it like peeling back an onion.

Each of my MC experiences has had positive and negative parts to it.  Offhand I can't think of any that if I went back in time I would not do again.

The "worst" one was when my wife danced around the room, ran out and I stay.  My wife "quit" that MC and never went back.  I stayed and the counselor told me about BPD and SWOE book.  So, I count that as a positive experience because it was the start of me learning tools to deal with the BPDish behavior.

FF

[formflier]

My "focus" this morning was on listening and validation.  My wife is involved with statewide testing at her school.  Pretty stressful stuff because teacher evaluations are tied to results.  Many kids and parents don't care.  My wife is Special Ed teacher, to lots of "troubled" kids in there.

How they tie performance reviews of teachers to a statewide test that is taken by a troubled kid that tells my wife "you can't make me (fill in the blank)" is beyond me.

Another interesting note, she uses validation as a tool with her special ed students, also uses targeted compliments and praise to reinforce positive behavior.

I have, from time to time, tried to pivot that conversation to using those tools at home, nope, pivoting not allowed.

Anyway, don't take any of these comments as me thinking anything is solved/fixed, but I feel good about where I am at the moment (me and self care) and I feel good about first MC.  

FF  

[Cole]

FF,

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Important question I would ask you is, "What is your gut instinct about this counselor?"

We went to one who I disliked from the start (though I could not put my finger on why) and she did more harm than good.

We both felt good about the current one from the beginning and he is really helping us, to the point W admitted last week she is "bat crap crazy" and needs to get her emotions under control.

As long as you both like this one, it is full steam ahead. But don't be afraid to change counselors if either of you has any concerns.   

[formflier]

FF,

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Important question I would ask you is, "What is your gut instinct about this counselor?"

We went to one who I disliked from the start (though I could not put my finger on why) and she did more harm than good.

We both felt good about the current one from the beginning and he is really helping us, to the point W admitted last week she is "bat crap crazy" and needs to get her emotions under control.

As long as you both like this one, it is full steam ahead. But don't be afraid to change counselors if either of you has any concerns.   

I like this one.  I have loosely known him for a long time.  Been to classes he has given, listened to sermons, etc etc.

He has PhD but can talk to you like a dude, (hope that makes sense)

My gut tells me that people in "our circles" have talked and realize that there are problems in our marriage with seriously deep roots and they need someone willing to help us dig those out.

The initial prediction is weekly counseling for 6 months and then assess where we are at.  Expectation of heavy "homework" in between those sessions.

Cole,

Thanks for checking in.  Haven't heard much from you lately (perhaps missed it since I was in my own world for a while).  I hope you have a path forward in your r/s.

In other news, have been invited to in person interview with the company that is my number 1 pick.  They are highly rated by military guys as a good place to work.  Fingers crossed.  I have made it through 3-4 wickets depending on how you count.

FF

[Cole]

You have not missed anything, I have not been on the board much lately. Very busy at work and with family.

Glad you have one you like. A PhD with feet on the ground instead of a head in the clouds sounds like a good combination. I hope you and Mrs. FF have great success!

We are doing well since Mrs. Cole moved back in. She is seeing her Psych for med maintenance, a counselor of her own, going to MC with me, and has become very involved in our church/school. The change has been amazing. She says she woke up one morning, realized she cannot live without me and the kids, and decided it was time to "grow the hell up." So far, so good, but we all know pwBPD can change direction instantly and without reason.

Prayers are with you on the job interviews. I am sure that the stability of a new career will help relieve some of the marital stress.   

[Grey Kitty]

I continue to be frustrated about finding a solid church (good teaching) with "traditional" service (hymn book and organ) vice "contemporary" (rock and roll concert followed by a sermon).  Hmm... .anyone detect formflier's judgmentalism there... .   

Anyway, my grump is that she describes to "everyone", the counselor included, that "my wife's church" is "our" church or "our families" church.  I don't argue with her in public about that.  In private I have discussed or made clear that I believe we are still looking.

FF, This attitude and this fight is only going to make trouble. You and your wife are BOTH doing it wrong here.

Your wife has decided what church she likes, and has concluded that the family is going there and that you are going there, without getting your agreement.

This, of course, is the normal pattern in your marriage.

You want something different that this church (at least partially doesn't have), and think your wife should "discuss" it with you and come to a reasonable agreement with you about how to resolve it.

    <ahem> I think I've said something to you once or twice about negotiating agreements with your wife... .



I think this sets the stage well. Now let me move into a pragmatic suggestion for you here.

1. Accept that you have ZERO influence over what church your wife goes to.

2. Decide if getting your kids to go to a different church is a hill you want to die on or not. (I'm guessing no) Consider the following:

• When you and your wife get in a direct conflict over what the kids do, you have a very poor track record of winning, and even when you did (CPS), it was at a huge cost. Normally the kids follow her instead of you.



• Just guessing here, but I suspect that the kids probably like the rock concert thing at least as well as the hymns and organ thing, so they aren't even on your side... .

3. Notice that YOU still have a choice what church you want to go to to get your spiritual needs met, and your wife doesn't control that at all either.

So... .here's where I'm trying to lead you by the nose... .

Go to the church your wife likes with her and your family. Grit your teeth through a rock concert as much as you have to.  As long as the sermon doesn't bother you every week, this is an acceptable church for the spiritual well-being of your family.

And find a church that has a "proper" hymns and organ service which you like, and attend that service yourself (with anybody who wishes to join you), to take care of your own needs for that thing you aren't getting in the other church.

[empath]

CPS was big issue for my wife and another turning point.  She believes that I called CPS because our baby walked into the road.  Denied ever spanking in anger... .EVER.  She was calm as she talked about this.

I was calm as I explained my point of view that I was uncomfortable with corporal punishment and that she refused to stop.  That in MC I said I would be satisfied with a written agreement to abstain from corporal punishment until all parties were willing to resume and that after she refused, I was not comfortable with the situation and involved CPS.

There is an incident with my husband that has been reported to CPS as well. When I bring it up in different contexts, he has said that he doesn't really remember it, so he can't change what he did if he doesn't know. It was a time when he was very dysregulated and not thinking clearly (obviously), and my interpretation is that he was running on emotion at that point and not higher mental functions. It was frightening to our daughter and to me. He has said that he has a vague memory of it, but it isn't anything like what we describe. This is when the outside confirmation is important because otherwise it just gets into 'he said, she said'.

Since this is a big issue for her, one that she has been stewing about for a while, it seems, do you have outside documentation of the facts? It may be a tumultuous ride if it comes up and you do have 'proof', but the alternative is not based in objective reality.

Anyway, my grump is that she describes to "everyone", the counselor included, that "my wife's church" is "our" church or "our families" church.  I don't argue with her in public about that.  In private I have discussed or made clear that I believe we are still looking.

I've learned that silence means agreement, at least in these types of relationships. I guess my question is how committed are you to worshiping together? I can see that there could be a couple of different values and principles that might be in conflict for you personally.

[formflier]

Worshiping together:  I find it hard to believe that I will "tolerate" a Sunday service long term to worship with my family.

On the other hand, I've not found anything yet that matches what I am interested in.

I have one lead that I am hoping to check out this coming Sunday.

FF

[Cole]

Worshiping together:  I find it hard to believe that I will "tolerate" a Sunday service long term to worship with my family.

FF

Our best friends' Church: Rock out, power point presentation, rock out.

In laws' Church: Plenty of emotion and crying. Tammy Fay Baker had nothing on these folks.   

Our Church: Traditional Catholic, a few masses even still done in latin.

The point is, it would be a very bland world if everyone liked vanilla ice cream. You need to explain to Mrs. FF that her chocolate almond chunk is fine for her, but you really want cookie dough. This is a conversation best held for when she is fairly stable, but still needs to happen. Grey Kitty is on the right track here.     

[empath]

For me personally, I have found that worshiping without my husband gives me space spiritually and socially to grow and to bring my own gifts to the congregation. It also gives me a chance to be in 'normal' relationships that are supportive. We have had a couple of extended periods of time when we weren't together for church which have been very good for me, but my husband had difficult emotions that were provoked by and associated with the situations. He also feels judged by the leadership because he isn't "leading his family well" when I am not worshiping with him.

Currently, we are worshiping separately due to the abuse, and the church's decision to keep him in leadership I don't have the option of attending both churches and wouldn't want to do that.

[Notwendy]

I get that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to churches. I also think it is fine for people to seek out the religion/ form of worship, choice to be part of an organized religion or not, that suits them. That said, I mean individuals. There are children involved.

If one chooses to raise children in an organized religion, than this involves more than fulfilling individual spirituality. Religion provides a framework for families, as a whole.

I am considering the children when I say this. They are already going through a lot of parental divisiveness. Is it this important to add a division over churches at this time? To have the kids go with Mom, or then with Dad.

I agree with GK on the idea of staying together as a family in the church mom chooses for the sake of being together with the children. FF can go anywhere on his own in addition with the kids. But there is something to be said for cohesiveness. I don't know if spitting hairs over the style of the service is worth putting the kids though another division.

[Fian]

Most of the time my parents went to different churches.  My mom chose Lutheran, my dad chose CMA and later Assembly of God.  As kids when we were younger, we went with my mom.  Later I joined my dad, and I think my sister might have chosen a 3rd church.  While I can see advantages to going to the same church, it wasn't the end of the world if different churches are attended, at least from my experience.  There is an advantage in that it gives the children the opportunity to experience different types of churches, and a greater chance that they will find one that speaks to them.

You can also take a parallel from the US as a whole.  I think we are stronger having a variety of churches instead of all attending the same denomination.

[SlyQQ]

Did you have happy stable relationship for 15 years?

[Notwendy]

I don't think it is the kind of church that is an issue, but the underlying conflict.

People of completely different religions have managed to have happy marriages if the relationship is healthy. If there is conflict and difficulty communicating, then that conflict emerges in situations like this.

I think it is fine to want different services. I was mostly thinking about the kids, at this point in time, being subjected to the conflict and the divisions. If the family attends church together, making a point of this right now, at the moment, could add stress. They see mom and dad fighting, and then, mom and dad take them to different churches.

The church issue is solvable by both parents choosing their own church. But the question is does FF want to do this now- after a move, the uprising in arguing, new house, new schools, marriage up in the air- or later when things have settled out and there is some direction for the marriage- either more stable or not.

This is from the kids' point of view, and while adults have the right to choose where to got to church, this is something that involves the kids. 

[formflier]

Did you have happy stable relationship for 15 years?

Yes. 

Both in agreement on that in MC.  No competing memories.  Yes there were "blips" of conflict but they were settled in a normal/healthy way.

Both of us also in agreement that the r/s went off the rails after the flood.

FF

[formflier]

I don't think it is the kind of church that is an issue, but the underlying conflict.

My wife tends to prefer traditional services like I do, but is also "fine" with contemporary.  She was this way before conflict started.

My gut tells me that she is drawn to this church for reasons other than the type of service.

I'd be speculating on those reasons, at this point, so for now will keep watching.

FF

[SlyQQ]

I have wondered if " barefoot an pregenent " ( sincere apologies for the use of this sexist and demeaning term just to illustrate a point easily ) was a way to keep someone with BPD on the rails, also if you were military does that mean you were often absent? (again something that helps maintain a BPD relationship)

The flood may have not have been the crux of the matter,  have been through fire an flood with BPD ex

fire was fine all bravado no problem till the flames 100 feet high shot up ridge next to the house then devolved into crying panic attack, the flloods though no imminent danger was relatively benign an in both cases no long term after affects though now I realize she was always BPD.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think it is the kind of church that is an issue, but the underlying conflict.

My wife tends to prefer traditional services like I do, but is also "fine" with contemporary.  She was this way before conflict started.

My gut tells me that she is drawn to this church for reasons other than the type of service.

I'd be speculating on those reasons... .at this point... .so for now will keep watching.

FF

I'm reading that as some veiled speculations that your wife is drawn to that church for reasons that aren't particularly healthy, and aren't something you want to support.

I've spoken here many times about how it is important to value and listen to your gut feelings at times like this, and I think this applies here as well... .please continue listening to your gut.

Listening to your gut isn't a justification for poor boundaries or enmeshment.

Your wife gets to make her own choice about which church she goes to. She can do it for good reasons, bad reasons, or any mix of the two. Doesn't matter, it is HER choice. You cannot change it, you shouldn't try to change it, and if you think you can or will, you have a recipe for increased conflict with her.

If she was an alcoholic and chose to drink, you would (probably) recognize that you cannot change her mind on that... .even though this would be 100X worse than any church she would choose.

[formflier]

 

Flood:  We were displaced from our home for about 6 months.  Abandonment fears were triggered as I focused over 100% of energy on getting us back on property.  We were grateful to be afforded a place to live with another family.  They had an enormous house and both families fit in there just fine.

The dynamic of that new r/s triggered paranoia in my wife that I wanted the other woman to be my wife instead of her.  The truth was that I wondered how the other guy "stood" having her for a wife and "wished him luck".  In other words zero attraction.

The farm never really was the same after that.  It was our dream and we sunk a silly amount of money into getting it working again.  Sold it via short sale to a government program that turned land back into greenspace to remove properties from the flood zone. 

We were very well off before this property (financially speaking) and after this property we struggle.  That is relative.  We are still solid upper middle class.

I never had the heart to nail down an exact number but the flood washed away somewhere between a quarter to half million dollars from us.

FF

[formflier]

I'm reading that as some veiled speculations that your wife is drawn to that church for reasons that aren't particularly healthy, and aren't something you want to support.

There is a strain in my wife that wants to judge others.  Going to the counseling workshops/training would send her on these quests to find and eliminate sin from the lives of those around her.  Of course, while ignoring anything in her own life.

There is also a strain of women that get together for womens retreats and (IMO) harumph about how bad the men are in their lives and how Godly they are being by showing grace to the men in their lives.  Of course, grace is given out on their terms,

Last:  This place is like being on a winning superbowl team (again, as viewed from certain circles.)

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I thought I'd put in my two cents as I remember moving when I was seven and my parents trying out different churches in our new neighborhood.

Some Sunday schools were very inclusive and I had fun with other kids and felt like I belonged. Others were really off-putting and I was made to feel like an outsider without a clue as to how to fit in.

These experiences added up to a feeling of absolute boredom with church attendance. It was like watching paint dry for me. My feelings of the holiness of life were engaged by being outdoors, enjoying the beauty and wonder of nature.

I remember noticing how adults were overly solicitous and friendly in the confines of the church building on Sunday, yet were completely different if you encountered them in town during the week.

For me as a child, the most important decision about what church to attend was the quality of the youth programs. I wanted to feel included, to have fun activities. Other than that, it didn't really matter.

[Grey Kitty]

FF, I get how your wife has a judgmental side that is downright unhealthy, and you don't appreciate it (whether aimed at you or at others)... .and I can see how a certain community would foster and encourage that, and I completely understand your concern about this.

But good, bad, or indifferent, your wife gets to choose which church she wants to go to, which people she wants to associate with, and you can't tell her otherwise. There may be some biblical justification (I just ran into the word "headship" recently), but I'm not talking theology here. My point is based on two things which will overcome any biblical reason:

1. Proper boundaries--your wife gets to choose her church and friends, you get to choose your church and friends.

2. Reality of your marriage--it doesn't go that way. (History of poor boundaries in is your wife smashing over yours, not the other way 'round!)

[formflier]

1. Proper boundaries--your wife gets to choose her church and friends, you get to choose your church and friends.

2. Reality of your marriage--it doesn't go that way. (History of poor boundaries in is your wife smashing over yours, not the other way 'round!)

The interesting thing is that if she followed the biblical teaching of the place she is drawn to, these things would not be true.  Role of women and the decider about spiritual matters in the home are clearly drawn.

Perhaps she likes to be in situations where the rules say one thing but because she is "special" or whatever she gets to do it another way. 

FF

[TheRealJongoBong]

I'm happy that your 1st session went well. I'd like to point out that your wife is likely to have her "good person" mask on for several sessions because of the novelty of the situation and wanting to impress the T as being stable. At some point she is going to get comfortable with the routine and the "good person" mask will start to slip.  I think it's important to be aware that this could happen so that you won't be blindsided in a therapy session and react inappropriately.

This exact scenario has played out in our MC sessions. Initially we were both on good behavior and my wife was obviously holding onto the good behavior pattern. It took many sessions before she felt comfortable enough to let her real self be seen. I had an idea that this would happen (thanks to everyone here for the education) so the day she came off the rails I was at least semi-prepared. Because of that I didn't react in a defensive manner and let her go - I felt it was very important for the T to see her in full flower.

Our issues and behaviors with respect to our pwBPD's are important for the T to know about and need to be worked through, but they need to be exposed in the proper context. That context to me is our pwBPD acting out as they do in their natural environment. Relax and wait for it, it will happen.