Data Gathering

[ydrys017]

I'm reading the Splitting book by Bill Eddy, and the advice is to document Everything.  So, a few weeks ago my dBPDw was sending me emails that contained links to articles about 'my' attachment disorders, and I decided to save them in my own email account.  I then went back through the prior year and forwarded several email communique between us and our couples T from our joint email account to my own email account.  Apparently, she saw one in the 'sent' folder of our joint email account, but waited several weeks to communicate her concern.

Last night while out for a bite with our 3 kids, she states that her phone is not working and could she borrow mine to access the joint email account.  I bring up that email account and hand her my phone, within 5 minutes she hands it back and asks about one of the forwarded emails - that she has on the screen!  So, she actually went out of the joint account and into my personal account and found the forwarded emails from several weeks ago in order to confront me - in public - in front of the kids! 

I agreed that I had forwarded all of the T communications, but would not divulge why in that setting - and got everyone ready to leave.  Further discussion that night (after kids were in bed) was an interrogation as to why: I calmly responded that after her statements that she was going to file for divorce, I forwarded the emails in case I need them.  I got the lack of trust accusations, but quickly pointed out that she had intentionally went into my personal email folder - and that if she had suspicions from several weeks ago, all she had to do was ask and I would have given the exact same answer.  The hypocrisy of her actions was not lost on me.

The discussion then went into the typical recycle, and when she began to escalate - I called it, and the discussion ended with intense Biblical demands on me but at least without a total meltdown.

So, my question is: what is the protocol on emails, what is fair game vs private in a joint email account?  Even if some of the communications were between her and our T?  I'm learning a lot from Eddy's book, but don't want to create additional problems in the process.

[david]

You probably have to talk to an attorney to be certain.

I was falsely charged by ex of assault, went to jail for two weeks, and had to take a leave of absence from my job for five years until I could get my record expunged. I am currently in the process of getting my record expunged. The day I got out of jail I purchased a video recorder and an audio recorder and let ex know. My state does not permit recording unless you have a court order. I've been in court several times since then and ex has brought up the fact that I am recording. One judge yelled at me for about ten minutes about it. After he calmed down I asked him if I could ask a question. After a pause he said yes and I asked him how could I protect myself from false allegations from my ex without recording. He yelled some more but never answered my question. I still record.

I would document everything you can and let your attorney tell you what can and can not be used in court.

My recording devices keep my ex at a safe distance and that is good enough for me.

Also, If she accused me again I have a recording. The police can look at it and determine that I did nothing wrong. That would stop me from being arrested and put in jail. I couldn't use it in court but it would keep me from going there.

I usually point the camera at myself since that is not illegal. If I put my video camera on mute I could use that in court. Sounds weird but that is legal.

[ForeverDad]

You probably have to talk to an attorney to be certain... .

I would document everything you can and let your attorney tell you what can and can not be used in court.

My recording devices keep my ex at a safe distance and that is good enough for me.

David makes an excellent point.  What you have, if never used, is probably not anything you would get into trouble over, legally.  After all, the emails came from a joint account.  (Next time, delete any forwarded sensitive emails from the joint Sent folder!  And beware of giving her access to your phone!)

Also, what may not be able to be used directly in court may be acceptable and helpful to evaluators, police, therapists or other professionals who act or work outside the court's testimony and evidence guidelines or policies.

Also, what may not have been accepted in court years ago could be acceptable now.  For example, in the past recordings were often blocked from testimony or evidence.  There are real risks of a person using excepts or framing the other person.  One scenario given is of one spouse calling the other spouse, saying things to get the other angry and then hanging up.  The recorder is turned on when the other calls back and angrily rants back and so it is made to seem there was no reason for the raging.  That is a concern still but there are so many ways to record these days (cell phones, cameras, pencams, etc) that in some cases recordings are accepted and do make a difference.  In my case, I started recording rants, rages and verbal encounters with my angry spouse from 6 months before separation, nearly 11 years ago.  It wasn't until 8 years later that court heard some of the recent ones and made a finding — after all that time — that Mother was 'disparaging' Father in the presence of our child.

the discussion ended with intense Biblical demands on me

Many disordered people are able to distort respected quotes, even from the Bible, to fit their perceptions and viewpoints while simultaneously ignoring the context or proper application.  Understand that and handle accordingly.

I recall my ex, in response to our child's pediatrician recommending her to see a psychologist, proclaiming, "I have the Bible!"   As wonderful as the Bible is, it's not a substitute for doctors or therapists.  Although it does touch on matters of science, medicine, mental health, human social interactions and other subjects, it was written with one primary focus, religion, it does not replace the other professions.  That said, reading the Bible is a good thing, let's hope she doesn't misapply what it says and instead learns something from it.  Though that too is a tall order and probably won't happen.

The problem is not the religion but her.  Those with BPD often use religion to berate others, just read some of the posts over on the Spirituality board and you will see that it really doesn't matter which religion is being mentioned, the person with BPD will either be self righteous, blaming, go overboard or use Scripture to beat everyone else over the head.  That's not how Scripture or religion is to be.

I recall my ex telling our pediatrician, when he recommended she see a counselor shortly before we separated, that she had the Bible and it was all she needed.  Denial all the way - and as a result the marriage failed.  Eventually, too, his practice withdrew all services for our son because she raged once too often at the staff.  It wasn't the Bible or religion at fault, it was her and her mental illness that twisted things around.

I believe that this issue is less about one religion or another and more about how she wields it - in a wise way or an unwise way - in her inconsistent and disordered parenting.

[Thunderstruck]

Maybe you should set up a brand new private personal email account... .One that you do not have automatically saved on your phone. Send all your emails to that account for safe keeping.

It sounds like she might be the type to go into your personal email and delete evidence.

[gary seven]

David:

Short story about data gathering:  START NOW!

Splitting is a must-read--it gives you a direction.  For me it has taken a LONG TIME to really move forward.

I have been struggling with my BPDw  for nearly 8 years. In '08 I got really mad, set up a private checking account and went to a divorce lawyer who told me to document everything.  Me being the Mom and the Dad and working full time, I was so FOG-ged I did not know where to turn. Maybe I should rephrase that: I have sustained continuous emotional trauma for the last eight years due to her BPD and my desire to protect my three little kids. With the help of T and P and rx's, I see much more clearly now. It is my duty to protect the kids.  Shoulda woulda really shoulda listened to that advice.

She got the '08 1099 tax form from the private bank.  The account I had set up was interest bearing. Major Decompensation.  However, when we moved out of state in '10,"to get a fresh start," conveniently we had access to all of our money since it was a national bank.  In '12 we are thrown out of that state (because a trespassing warrant was sworn out against her) and we moved back to the "home" state. As goes with many of these stories, things  were doomed to get worse.

Since moving back I documented everything on my work computer in Excel.  I switched to a private email account.  I took off the diaries from the work servers onto a password-protected thumb drive.  I also took movies and also filmed the office phone on speakerphone when we speak. In my state, only one party needs to consent to recording. I have switched memory cards in my phone 3 times now.

My phone and regular email and computer have new passwords.

I'm going to get divorced.  So this October I got a private PO Box (paid cash), then a checking account--without interest. The check card, however, did not go to my PO box as directed: went to the house.    Don't ask, but I faked my way out of it.

I found a free android app called Phone Leash.  It converts all the texts from my phone (from her, local car washes, etc) and they are sent to my private email.  I can review it anytime.

G7

[Thunderstruck]

I also took movies and also filmed the office phone on speakerphone when we speak. In my state, only one party needs to consent to recording. I have switched memory cards in my phone 3 times now.

In my state both parties need to consent to recording. However, you can record your own half of the conversation. I.e. Film or voice record yourself talking on the phone.

In person (again, in my state) you can record anything in public.

Check your laws for this, but there are still ways to document.

[livednlearned]

If in doubt, err on the side of documenting, imo.

It's easy to lose your head in these cases, and forget what happened, when it happened, how you felt -- the stress can be intense. I'm so grateful I had a record of what happened and could piece it together. I had reams of evidence and was able to pull things together to make my lawyer's strategy really work.

And it did work.

We're free 

[ydrys017]

Thanks all, I appreciate the comments.  I've laid low (not too hard since the ST has been ongoing for ~18mos!) and the topic has not been brought up.  I agree with the logic of 'err on the side of documenting', and 'let the lawyer figure out what is usable.'  Interestingly, I did delete the forwarded emails from the 'sent' folder, but either I missed one or she happened to be reading emails while I was forwarding - more than likely she was doing the exact same thing, deleting 'sent' emails bec/ she is on a negative advocacy campaign with family / friends / church members but doesn't want me to know.  I live in a 2 party consent state, but am prepared to record if necessary.

I did change my password on my personal email account that night just to preserve what I have so far.  I don't really have a lot to document, partially because I've stopped making it worse and the dysreg's have transitioned into the silent treatment.  I strictly enforce my boundaries of 'no relationship texts', and 'conversation is over after 3 interrupts and/or she begins to recycle.'  This brought some peace and stability for me and the kids, but then the divorce threats... .  So, I'm taking more advice from the Splitting book and retaining my own lawyer, and if she files I will immediately assume a High Conflict situation.  Sad, exhausting, and extremely unfulfilling... .

[david]

"She begins to recycle... ." It took me a while but I eventually realized my ex recycles because she has a limited number of behaviors that she follows. Her tactics are limited and once I realized that it was much easier for me to accomplish things for our kids. Her behavior appears illogical but it is because she doesn't have anything else to work with.

We had a court ordered co parenting counselor. It was ordered for at least ten months. After three or four meetings the counselor realized the meetings were going nowhere and actually offered to end it then. I agreed and left. He wrote a letter to the judge explaining the futility.

The final meeting was an argument about our oldest son and his need for a schoolbag. Ex went around in circles and took every side of an argument. Every time I agreed she took the opposite position. I knew she would so I let her do her thing. Once the counselor seen that he realized it was a waste of time. He tried to "reason" with her and she started disagreeing with him.

I only communicate with my ex through email. That was a boundary I made and stuck to it.