Icky stuff

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi everyone

I know I have talked about this subject somewhat on other threads, but some new things have come up that I could use some help sorting out. I appreciate very much the compationate members here, and the opportunity to talk through a difficult subject in an anonymous setting. I apologize if this subject is triggering to anyone, or TMI.

My mother had very poor boundaries. In every way, but what I am concentrating on here is what I suppose is called emotional incest and innapropriate physical boundaries. My mom would always insist on cuddling in her bed. I always felt smothered, claustrophobic and icky, especially because she would put my legs between her thighs to snuggle extra close. It wasn't sexual exactly, but uncomfortable for me. I addressed before in another thread that my mother cleaned my clitoral area when I was 9 or 10 with a bobby pin which caused sexual stimulation. I know she would have had to be aware that it had an effect on me, because I asked her why my legs were shaking. But this happened many times. She would also call me in to talk when she was in the bath and she would be in the water with her knees up to her chest giving me a gynocological view. This made me uncomfortable, but I felt like there was something wrong with me for feeling that way, because after all we were both girls and she was my mother. There was also a period of time when she gave both us kids and herself enemas every night. All together on the bathroom floor, making us hold the warm water for 30 minutes or more. And I have struggled with this for many years, because I don't think the way it affected me was intended. I think she believed this was good for our health, but the experience was unsettling. Part of what makes this difficult, is in these times I felt loved and cared for. In contrast to the long periods of time that she didn't get out of bed or was having an emotional meltdown.

Anyways, I have shared these things with my therapist. This week I brought up that my daughter was having trouble with my mother forcing my 5 year old granddaughter to hug her. My mom picks her up from school one day a week and takes her home, about a 20 minute drive. She said she has a look of desperation and tries to get away from her, but grandma just wont let her go. I was trying to explain to her that the child has a right to decide who touches her, and when, and it's important to help her set these boundaries and not let my mom overrun them. She said she doesn't want to make grandma mad at her or make her start crying.

I was looking for help in communicating to her about the need for boundries in a more effective way, but instead my T said wait- she picks her up at school? And I said yes, once a week. He says she should not ever be alone with a child. And that based on things I have told him that my mother did to me he would have to make a report to CPS if it continues. I am taken aback- I mean my mother has issues, yes, but is a child at risk on a 20 minute drive? I explain to him that she takes her straight home. He says again that she can not ever be alone with a child. That we don't know how well she controls her impulses, and she could stop somewhere on the way home. He uses words like molester and perpetrator and I tell him I am not comfortable with those words in this situation.

We talk some more and he explains that everyone in the family probably feels something off, but I am the only one with the key that will give my daughter what she needs to act. And that we can't do anything about the past, but we can make sure my grandaughter is safe. I agree with that of course, but then I have to have a conversation with my daughter that I never wanted to. I feel forced by the situation to tell her things that I had never intended to tell her. I have always been especially careful to not overshare since I was subject to so many detailed reports of my mother's childhood abuse. I thought I could keep this to myself, limit contact with my mother and it would be okay. But here we are. And I am really upset.

So I tell her that this is awkward, and I'm sorry, but I am just going to jump right into the middle and she can ask me anything she needs to know. I say that I just got home from my T, and that based on things I have shared with him about my childhood, grandma cannot ever be alone with a minor child or he will need to call CPS. I tell her that he considers these things to fall under the umbrella of incest/molestation, but I feel like they are more a lack of boundries. She says she doesn't need details, but does she need to ask her daughter if grandma touched her innapropriately.

See this is really why I did not like being forced into this conversation. Nothing my mom did makes me think shes going to pull over to the side of the road and fondle my GD. I am so uncomfortable with this- I don't think what she did to me was okay, but a molester? Perpetrator? Now I feel like I am going to get in trouble for telling lies. But all I told my therapist that falls under a semi-sexual nature is what I shared in this post. I didn't exaggerate, I didn't lie. So why does it feel like it's gotten way out of control.

On the plus side, I am very happy that now she is willing to keep grandma from pulling the crap shes been pulling lately. She tells me it's been making her uncomfortable, but she felt so sorry for her that she didn't want to set limits. Now she can. She tells me that my mom tell GD I need to feel loved. And when GD says no or tries to get away she says I am not leaving until you squeeze tight with both arms and fill me all up with love. Double this time because I didn't see you last week. Stuff like that. Then she holds her too long and too close.

Gross, creepy, yes. But molestation?

And I have never told anyone anything even hinting at this subject except my husband and T. And now I had to acknowledge it to my child. This is stirring up a lot of crap in me and I don't know what to do.

I am sorry if this rambles. I'm not even sure what I am looking for here. But any insights would be appreciated.

Thank you

[daughterandmom]

Hi everyone

I know I have talked about this subject somewhat on other threads, but some new things have come up that I could use some help sorting out. I appreciate very much the compationate members here, and the opportunity to talk through a difficult subject in an anonymous setting. I apologize if this subject is triggering to anyone, or TMI.

My mother had very poor boundaries. In every way, but what I am concentrating on here is what I suppose is called emotional incest and innapropriate physical boundaries. My mom would always insist on cuddling in her bed. I always felt smothered, claustrophobic and icky, especially because she would put my legs between her thighs to snuggle extra close. It wasn't sexual exactly, but uncomfortable for me. I addressed before in another thread that my mother cleaned my clitoral area when I was 9 or 10 with a bobby pin which caused sexual stimulation. I know she would have had to be aware that it had an effect on me, because I asked her why my legs were shaking. But this happened many times. She would also call me in to talk when she was in the bath and she would be in the water with her knees up to her chest giving me a gynocological view. This made me uncomfortable, but I felt like there was something wrong with me for feeling that way, because after all we were both girls and she was my mother. There was also a period of time when she gave both us kids and herself enemas every night. All together on the bathroom floor, making us hold the warm water for 30 minutes or more. And I have struggled with this for many years, because I don't think the way it affected me was intended. I think she believed this was good for our health, but the experience was unsettling. Part of what makes this difficult, is in these times I felt loved and cared for. In contrast to the long periods of time that she didn't get out of bed or was having an emotional meltdown.

Anyways, I have shared these things with my therapist. This week I brought up that my daughter was having trouble with my mother forcing my 5 year old granddaughter to hug her. My mom picks her up from school one day a week and takes her home, about a 20 minute drive. She said she has a look of desperation and tries to get away from her, but grandma just wont let her go. I was trying to explain to her that the child has a right to decide who touches her, and when, and it's important to help her set these boundaries and not let my mom overrun them. She said she doesn't want to make grandma mad at her or make her start crying.

I was looking for help in communicating to her about the need for boundries in a more effective way, but instead my T said wait- she picks her up at school? And I said yes, once a week. He says she should not ever be alone with a child. And that based on things I have told him that my mother did to me he would have to make a report to CPS if it continues. I am taken aback- I mean my mother has issues, yes, but is a child at risk on a 20 minute drive? I explain to him that she takes her straight home. He says again that she can not ever be alone with a child. That we don't know how well she controls her impulses, and she could stop somewhere on the way home. He uses words like molester and perpetrator and I tell him I am not comfortable with those words in this situation.

We talk some more and he explains that everyone in the family probably feels something off, but I am the only one with the key that will give my daughter what she needs to act. And that we can't do anything about the past, but we can make sure my grandaughter is safe. I agree with that of course, but then I have to have a conversation with my daughter that I never wanted to. I feel forced by the situation to tell her things that I had never intended to tell her. I have always been especially careful to not overshare since I was subject to so many detailed reports of my mother's childhood abuse. I thought I could keep this to myself, limit contact with my mother and it would be okay. But here we are. And I am really upset.

So I tell her that this is awkward, and I'm sorry, but I am just going to jump right into the middle and she can ask me anything she needs to know. I say that I just got home from my T, and that based on things I have shared with him about my childhood, grandma cannot ever be alone with a minor child or he will need to call CPS. I tell her that he considers these things to fall under the umbrella of incest/molestation, but I feel like they are more a lack of boundries. She says she doesn't need details, but does she need to ask her daughter if grandma touched her innapropriately.

See this is really why I did not like being forced into this conversation. Nothing my mom did makes me think shes going to pull over to the side of the road and fondle my GD. I am so uncomfortable with this- I don't think what she did to me was okay, but a molester? Perpetrator? Now I feel like I am going to get in trouble for telling lies. But all I told my therapist that falls under a semi-sexual nature is what I shared in this post. I didn't exaggerate, I didn't lie. So why does it feel like it's gotten way out of control.

On the plus side, I am very happy that now she is willing to keep grandma from pulling the crap shes been pulling lately. She tells me it's been making her uncomfortable, but she felt so sorry for her that she didn't want to set limits. Now she can. She tells me that my mom tell GD I need to feel loved. And when GD says no or tries to get away she says I am not leaving until you squeeze tight with both arms and fill me all up with love. Double this time because I didn't see you last week. Stuff like that. Then she holds her too long and too close.

Gross, creepy, yes. But molestation?

And I have never told anyone anything even hinting at this subject except my husband and T. And now I had to acknowledge it to my child. This is stirring up a lot of crap in me and I don't know what to do.

I am sorry if this rambles. I'm not even sure what I am looking for here. But any insights would be appreciated.

Thank you

[Kwamina]

Hi daughterandmom,

I know the other threads you talk about and know that you've been through a lot. The way your mother treated you was very inappropriate, in many ways emotionally incestuous and in my opinion sometimes definitely also overtly sexually abusive.

When I read your post I get the sense that you are still finding it very hard to see what your mother did to you as abuse. It made you feel uncomfortable and you now do see that it was inappropriate, but labeling it as abuse you seem to find difficult. I can understand that though because it isn't pleasant or easy classifying one's own mother as abuser and molester. Do you perhaps also feel that a reason you find it hard to view your mother this way is because you perhaps think she wasn't aware just how inappropriate her behavior was?

Your granddaughter is just 5 years old and I do understand the concerns your therapist has. Your granddaughter is too young to protect herself. It is good that your granddaughter learns to set boundaries and that it's ok to have boundaries. Yet since she is so young, protecting herself is not something she can do by herself. She needs help with that and I think you as her grandmother, knowing what you know about your mother, indeed also have a crucial role to play here. This is very hard though. None of this is easy.

Do you perhaps feel like these recent events are forcing you to revisit and reevaluate a part of your life that you would rather keep buried?

[HopeAndCoffee]

What an incredibly difficult situation for all of you - I'm sorry you have to go through this and wish you nothing but strength in dealing with the situation.

I'm still really new here, and I hesitated if I should reply to your post because this is such a sensitive subject. I might be able to provide some extra information that might be beneficial to you, but at the same time I'm aware that as a 'mere' reader of your story as a member of this board, I'm not aware of the situation in it's entirety and am drawing conclusions based on what I've read so far (which is this post).

Reading your story, I get the impression that you are struggling with the question of whether what happened between your mother and yourself during your childhood 'counts' as molestation. I don't know if you and your therapist have ever discussed the 'divide' between overt and covert sexual abuse? If not, perhaps this would be a good subject to tackle during a session, since to me you seemed surprised by his reaction to your mother picking your granddaughter up from school and stating she should never be left alone with a minor.

I'm going into covert sexual abuse a bit below (beneath the line), but I do want to point out that this might be triggering. You might be much more comfortable discussing it with your therapist, and I'd urge you to do that instead of reading on (or if you do decide to read it, perhaps at a time where you can discuss it with him soon).

-------------

As previously stated, sexual abuse can be placed in either the 'overt' and 'covert' category. Of these two, 'overt' is where most people's minds go when they hear the word molestation. Covert sexual abuse, or covert incest, is much less obvious because it does not always involve the genitals - it doesn't even have to be physical.

There will be people who are under the firm impression that in order to call something sexual abuse, there needs to be sexual *intent* - but this is not always the case. A parent who does this may very well view their behavior as a way to express their love. In these situations, less emphasis is placed on the intent of the (in this case) mother, and more of it is placed on the reaction of the child - examples from your own story; you felt uncomfortable, claustrophobic and icky. You felt there was something wrong with *you* for feeling this way because you were both female and she was your mother.

The *most* common example of mother-daughter covert sexual behavior is a preoccupation with a child's bodily functions; they may follow unusual cleansing rituals and administer enemas and/or laxatives - both of which you mentioned in your post. Other examples include, but are not limited to:

- Treating a daughter like a peer or even a lover, instead of as a child

- Not respecting the daughter's right for personal privacy

- Initiating conversations where mature content is discussed

- Intentional nudity (exposing herself and insisting the daughter's presence for it)

- Showing an inappropriate interest (sometimes obsessive) interest in the child's body and its development.

Knowing this, it might be a a bit more clear to you why your therapist reacted the way he did. What happened to you is absolutely considered as abuse by professionals, but it's also perfectly understandable that the line seems very blurry when you are in the middle of it. Please know that not a single part of this is your fault - not the abuse and not you perhaps not viewing or naming it as such.

I hope I did the right thing by responding, and perhaps being of some help.

[Kwamina]

I hope I did the right thing by responding, and perhaps being of some help.

Hi HopeAndCoffee,

I am not going to respond for daughterandmom of course but I just want to say that it is okay you responded here. We also have a thread on this board about emotional incest in which we also explore the difference between overt and covert incest. This is indeed a difficult and sensitive subject. Thanks for sharing your insights with us.

Welcome to the board

[HopeAndCoffee]

I hope I did the right thing by responding, and perhaps being of some help.

Hi HopeAndCoffee,

I am not going to respond for daughterandmom of course but I just want to say that it is okay you responded here. We also have a thread on this board about emotional incest in which we also explore the difference between overt and covert incest. This is indeed a difficult and sensitive subject. Thanks for sharing your insights with us.

Welcome to the board

Thank you! Haven't come across it yet, and I just wasn't sure  Still very much finding my way around this place and don't want to overstep 

[khibomsis]

"my mother forcing my 5 year old granddaughter to hug her." "She said she doesn't want to make grandma mad at her or make her start crying." Daughterandmom, it sounds to me like emotional incest. In the sense that the child  -at 5- is being taught to set the adult's needs before her own. And being discouraged from setting boundaries through emotional blackmail. I am sorry that the situation probably is forcing you to confront lots of things you did not want to deal with.  But glad for your granddaughter's sake that you acted so promptly and with such complete honesty.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Daughterandmom,

I'm glad that you posted and shared with us. You're very brave and being vulnerable to share with us, and please know that there are others who also struggle with some of the things you are dealing with.   It takes a lot of courage to work so hard at healing.

I think you handled this quite well as you spoke with your daughter. You said what you needed to and that took care of things without having to go into great detail with her. 

So I tell her that this is awkward, and I'm sorry, but I am just going to jump right into the middle and she can ask me anything she needs to know. I say that I just got home from my T, and that based on things I have shared with him about my childhood, grandma cannot ever be alone with a minor child or he will need to call CPS. I tell her that he considers these things to fall under the umbrella of incest/molestation, but I feel like they are more a lack of boundries. She says she doesn't need details, but does she need to ask her daughter if grandma touched her innapropriately.

With my own grown children, I too have been rather careful in what I've shared, only as I've needed to. To you and I it may seem more to the normal side or blurred boundaries, but as you and I progress through T, our vision changes and we start to see with greater clarity. I totally agree with HopeAndCoffee and also with Kwamina:

Your granddaughter is just 5 years old and I do understand the concerns your therapist has. Your granddaughter is too young to protect herself. It is good that your granddaughter learns to set boundaries and that it's ok to have boundaries. Yet since she is so young, protecting herself is not something she can do by herself. She needs help with that and I think you as her grandmother, knowing what you know about your mother, indeed also have a crucial role to play here. This is very hard though. None of this is easy.

What happened to you is absolutely considered as abuse by professionals, but it's also perfectly understandable that the line seems very blurry when you are in the middle of it. Please know that not a single part of this is your fault - not the abuse and not you perhaps not viewing or naming it as such.

I can hear that you are shocked at all of this, including what your T brought up, and add to it our tendency as a child to not want to put blame on our pwBPD. Take your time as you process through this. I asked some of my safe friends how they would define abuse when I was trying to decide if I was abused or not. Of course when I first began T, I flatly denied that any form of abuse had taken place. Here are some of the answers I received which may be helpful to you. They helped me to work through many questions I had:

When I tried to figure out if I was 'abused' or not, I asked those with whom I felt safe what their definition of abuse would be. Here are some of the answers I was given:

1. Discipline is correction for the child's benefit. Abuse is discipline for your own benefit or personal gratification/satisfaction.

2. Discipline means to teach. Discipline should not take place with angry teachers.

3. Abuse is an attack to your identity or anything that would damage your identity.

4. Abuse is anything that leaves its mark.

5. Abuse is taking advantage of another person or determining to have ‘control’ of them for one’s own purposes, comfort, satisfaction, or distorted sense of well being.

I am glad that you are protecting your granddaughter. You are breaking the cycle!   


Wools

[daughterandmom]

Hi Everyone

I very much appreciate the input I have received here. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. I really appreciate it, as this has been a difficult subject for me, and the need to reveal it to my daughter has really left me feeling unsettled.

When I read your post I get the sense that you are still finding it very hard to see what your mother did to you as abuse. It made you feel uncomfortable and you now do see that it was inappropriate, but labeling it as abuse you seem to find difficult. I can understand that though because it isn't pleasant or easy classifying one's own mother as abuser and molester. Do you perhaps also feel that a reason you find it hard to view your mother this way is because you perhaps think she wasn't aware just how inappropriate her behavior was?

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Do you perhaps feel like these recent events are forcing you to revisit and reevaluate a part of your life that you would rather keep buried?

Kwamina - I do have trouble believing she knew how inappropriate her behavior was. It seemed more like these were times she was caring for me, like I suppose a mother combing her daughter's hair. The problem was the feelings it caused in me, physical things I realize I couldn't really control, made me feel disturbed and confused. And I was happy to accept the personal attention since I got so little of it.

And yes, I am being forced by the recent events to revisit things I would rather keep buried. I have never mentioned this subject to anyone before I posted about it on this board, more as a side point on the emotional incest thread. The feedback I received from that post caused me to mention it to my therapist. Prior to that I just considered it just another example of my mother being "off". His reaction as well as more feedback on here have caused me to slowly come around to the idea that it was, at least in effect, abusive.

I guess I am still detached from my feelings about it, because I feel like I can talk about it logically and without emotion, but as I sit here writing this I can barely breathe and my stomach is flipping over. Thank you for sticking with me on this- I have really appreciated your clear and thoughtful insights as I have started working through this.

Reading your story, I get the impression that you are struggling with the question of whether what happened between your mother and yourself during your childhood 'counts' as molestation. I don't know if you and your therapist have ever discussed the 'divide' between overt and covert sexual abuse?

The *most* common example of mother-daughter covert sexual behavior is a preoccupation with a child's bodily functions; they may follow unusual cleansing rituals and administer enemas and/or laxatives - both of which you mentioned in your post. Other examples include, but are not limited to:

- Treating a daughter like a peer or even a lover, instead of as a child

- Not respecting the daughter's right for personal privacy

- Initiating conversations where mature content is discussed

- Intentional nudity (exposing herself and insisting the daughter's presence for it)

- Showing an inappropriate interest (sometimes obsessive) interest in the child's body and its development.

HopeAndCoffee -  Welcome!   Thank you so much for your reply! I very much appreciate what you had to offer and I am so glad you went ahead even though you were hesitant. I do realize it's a sensitive subject, not something I can talk about face to face with anyone, so anyone that is willing to participate in the conversation here with me is very helpful. My therapist has told me that the best way to work it through is to talk about it, so here I am

No, I haven't discussed the difference between overt and covert sexual abuse with my therapist. He's trying to get me to accept her behavior as abusive for now, I suppose since I am having such a hard time with the definition. Reading what you wrote- she did all of those things, pretty much all the time. So I see that it fits the criteria, but I am just struggling so much with the lack of intent thing. To me that feels like if you can do something that would cause you to be labeled as an abuser without intent, that's like a half step away from it just being a mistake. I mean without intent- isn't that almost the same as didn't intend to? And picturing telling her that I and others I have told consider her actions to be sexual abuse, I can just imagine the hysterics that would bring on 

You absolutely did the right thing by responding, and you were definitely helpful 

Daughterandmom, it sounds to me like emotional incest. In the sense that the child  -at 5- is being taught to set the adult's needs before her own. And being discouraged from setting boundaries through emotional blackmail. I am sorry that the situation probably is forcing you to confront lots of things you did not want to deal with.  But glad for your granddaughter's sake that you acted so promptly and with such complete honesty.

khibomsis - Thank you for the support- I really appreciate it. It is feeling very difficult, but you are right. The feedback I have received has definitely helped me to clarify that what she is doing is emotional incest and made me sure that I had no choice but to confront it. I really wish that I had this understood better when my children were young and hadn't allowed her to behave this way with them.

Woolspinner2000 - Thank you so much for the encouragement and support! It's tough dealing with FOO issues when we have our own children, isn't it?       I had really hoped to never need to share this with my daughter, and I feel so off now. You are correct that I was shocked by my therapist's response. I guess I am only just starting to be able to accept that her behavior was damaging to me. The idea that she was a danger to my granddaughter, with such limited contact seemed like a really big jump to me.

I read through what you wrote on the definition of abuse, I can clearly see that much of my treatment was abusive. I guess I just have a hard time making the next connection to her being an abuser. When I try to think of that I see the face she gives me where she is so hurt, wounded to the core, and it's all my fault.

Thank you again to everyone who took the time to read this 

[claudiaduffy]

Hi, daughterandmom,

I'm really feeling for you here on the difficulty with naming your mother an abuser. I have had similar difficulties in coming to terms with my own mom's abuse.

It helped me to remember that the fundamental definition of "abuse" is "improper use." One can abuse something with absolutely no foul intent; and removing the abused object or person from the abuse for its protection does not necessarily pass a judgment of foul intent upon the abuser.

This is true even of the situation you're facing. The question of intent is really beside the point; your mother's actions, no matter what the motivation, were an improper use of your sexuality (both physical and emotional.) These actions were habitual and systemic and even if they were motivated by a malformed sense of loving parental duty, there is no way to safely assume that similar motivations would not cause her to improperly use another child's sexuality - especially a child that she felt familial duty towards.

The thing is, you can't really know what went on in your mother's mind. But you actually don't have to, and if you embrace that, it can be incredibly freeing. Because then, you can address her actions on their own merits, while granting her privacy and authority over her own motives (the kind of privacy and authority most pwBPD have difficulty granting to others), without laboring under the burden of deciding or deciphering what she meant by any of it. Working on boundaries and personal healing and even forgiveness became ever so much simpler for me when I stopped letting my mother's intent (for good or for ill) cloud how I remembered and experienced her actions.

[daughterandmom]

Hi claudiaduffy,

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that you had to come to terms with similar feelings 

I think I can work with what you said. If I simply view the situation as needing to protect the object. Maybe like not letting the toddler play with the heirloom doll because she cannot be counted on to show the proper care, even though she doesn't mean to break it. Am I on the right track?

But I get stuck with what should be said to her? My daughters boyfriend told her that she owes my mom no explanation. My therapist basically said the same thing, something like we have discussed it and we wont be needing you to pick up GD from school one day a week anymore. And if she asks why just say that's what we have decided is best for her.

This sounds cruel. I would not like being handled that way. I mean it's not unreasonable to want an explanation is it? But the absolute truth would be hurtful. And making up a soft excuse probably just creates more problem later. I don't know how to handle it. We've always let my mom push into uncomfortable areas because it's not worth the drama.

[claudiaduffy]

Yeah. I know it's hard - I wish there were something to make it easy! But not giving an explanation is not cruel. Cruelty is deliberately causing pain to someone for the sheer purpose of causing pain. That is not what you are doing, regardless of your mom's possible perception of your actions. There is no right of hers that you are violating. There is no rule that says great-grandmothers must be allowed to drive their great-granddaughters home from school. There is no rule that says people are allowed full access to your reasons behind decisions you make. And, in this case, it isn't YOUR child - you are not really the one making the decision. The child's parents are. Your discussions with your therapist may have brought the question to a head, but that doesn't mean that you are causing a bad situation. I'm actually profoundly thankful for the girl's sake that this all came up, because catering to any adult's emotional needs (whether they're BPD or not) in a way that puts a child into emotional (and possibly sexual) danger is just... .wrong.

"No" is a complete answer. And "Mom, I love you, and I am not going to talk about this" is a kind response to questions. Now, if she wants to think of it as cruel, that's her business, and although it stinks, you might have to be ready to just take that. Allowing her to have her own wrong ideas is part of giving her that privacy and authority over her own self.

[khibomsis]

daughterandmom, I am dealing with my own grief at my niece's 15 recent NBPD diagnosis. And like you, I have toyed with  the idea of explaining to my uNBPD mom (who certainly violated my boundaries over and over again) of the part she played in this. I really don't think any good can come from it. BPD is its own world not accessible to our logic. All it would do is involve us in much dysregulation. Be kind to yourself and save yourself some stress. You have no idea of what I would give to have been able to protect my niece the way you just protected your granddaughter. Everything else is a minor detail.

[daughterandmom]

 Thank you claudiaduffy and khibomsis

I really appreciate the input and support. I am so grateful that this board exists- these are not subjects most people could understand. Talking about it here has made it more clear for me. khibomsis- I am so sorry you are going through this with your niece's diagnosis. I do think that your involvement in her life might make all the difference though 

I have no trouble agreeing that the child's well being comes first, and I am more than willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that happens. My therapist and this board have helped me see though that I was not drawing the line in the right place to completely protect her. I am grateful that I have the opportunity to make sure she is protected, but I am so off balance and upset right now that in order to protect her I had to reveal things about myself to my child that I spent my whole life making sure she never needed to be exposed to. And she felt she needed to tell her boyfriend and ex-husband. I feel like I lost what I worked so hard to be for them- strong and stable and someone to rely on. Now they know this and I hate that I couldn't have accomplished the same thing without letting this out. I can hardly think of many other circumstances where you aren't allowed to keep something that is embarrassing and gross private, because how often does something that happened in your own childhood, so long ago. affect the welfare of someone now?  I have friends that have criminal records, abortions, past drug habits, etc that they don't intend to tell their children about and they probably never will have to. This sucks.

[khibomsis]

Thanks, daughterandmom! I am feeling a little better now, the diagnosis seems to have triggered my PTSD but having figured that out I took it easy and am healing bit by bit. Niece is doing the best she can.

  I am sorry to hear your pain, it must have been so hard for you to talk about what you have kept secret for so long. It does indeed suck piles! It is like a secondary victimization. It shows how much you love your granddaughter that you were prepared to do that for her.  That said, I wonder if you don't feel better after having spoken? Emotional incest is like overt incest in that the victim often feels shame/implicated, and that can be one of the worst consequences because it isolates us.  It least this way your experiences get to be part of your social identity. I get that we don't want to burden the next generation with our pain and that is a good thing, but do you think your daughter will treat you differently now that she knows? Are you not even stronger and more stable precisely because you have had these traumatic experiences and came out a good person? 

[Kwamina]

I feel like I lost what I worked so hard to be for them- strong and stable and someone to rely on. Now they know this and I hate that I couldn't have accomplished the same thing without letting this out. I can hardly think of many other circumstances where you aren't allowed to keep something that is embarrassing and gross private, because how often does something that happened in your own childhood, so long ago. affect the welfare of someone now?  I have friends that have criminal records, abortions, past drug habits, etc that they don't intend to tell their children about and they probably never will have to. This sucks.

I can totally understand why you would want to totally shield your children from the things you experienced in your childhood. I do want to say though that it takes an enormous amount of strength and courage to face your deepest fears and let yourself be vulnerable by sharing what happened to you. That you were able to overcome what you've been through, lead the life that you live and be the mother and grandmother that you are also shows your strength and resilience.

You use the word embarrassing and khibomsis rightly points out how the victim of incest, whether it is covert or overt, often feels shame and/or complicit. Shame is a really powerful negative emotion. In the Survivors' Guide for adults who suffered childhood abuse, the following is said about responsibility and shame:

"I accept that I was powerless over my abusers' actions which holds THEM responsible

I can respect my shame and anger as a consequence of my abuse, but shall try not to turn it against myself or others."

Can you see that you were just a child which makes you powerless and your mother responsible for what she did to you?

I would also like to quote Pete Walker here:

"Cultivate safe relationships and seek support. Take time alone when you need it, but don't let shame isolate you. Feeling shame doesn't mean you are shameful. Educate your intimates about flashbacks and ask them to help you talk and feel your way through them."