Validating Feelings vs. "Why do I feel this way"

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I'm struggling what to do when SET doesn't work, i.e. defuse the situation.

Most recently, the last few weekends I'll wake up and my w will be reading a book on our shared Kindle account... .Most of the books are free (if you keep up with bookbub) and I haven't gotten around to reading them.

If there's anything remotely sexual (anything from "she was leaning against the car and dang she looked good through stuff in the Game of Thrones series) my w will declare all sorts of stuff about why I like to read & what I'm getting out of it, how it's the same as an affair and how it makes HER feel insignificant.

All the SET hasn't had much of an effect, because even if I'm not reading it to get my jollyies, for her it boils down to her feelings:

   1.   I'm reading books (fact)

   2.   Some of those books may contain paragraphs where guy finds girl hot (fact)

   3.   I wouldn't be reading it if my life wasn't lacking in hot girls and I'm living through the books (incorrect opinion)   

   4.   W feels insignificant because of her conclusion #3

   5.   Despite SET, W doesn't believe I understand her feelings because I have not changed my behavior even after she has expressed (100's of times) #3

So the T part of SET (book may contain the word "nipple", but that's not why I'm reading it)

Am I missing something here?  This is forever a topic of "conversation", even though the last few months I've been good about enforcing the boundary I won't re-hash the book conversation (It's gotten so I literally hold up my hand and say "book conversation".

I think it's ever-present because it's assumed that if I cared what she felt I'd change myself so she wouldn't feel bad anymore (yeah, definition of co-dependency). 

But I have no clue how to express it.  I don't expect her to agree, but at least agree to dis-agree.  Is that too much to hope for?

 

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[ProKonig]

Ugh, I sympathise. My partner is the same. Everything is a trigger than links her to attacking me over past relationships. She knows I once had sex without a condom in a previous relationship, which deeply offends her ideals of 'perfection in her partner'. She read an article on zika and how it is transmitted sexually. Called me an idiot (rehashing) and then dysregulated. She finds never ending triggers for it and I identify it and shut it down as a boundary. It never improves. Advice for us both?

[gotbushels]

[... .]

 

Hi guys!

IsItHerOrIsItMe good job with the SET!


This connection 'you reading specific materials' -> 'her insecurity' seems long term.

The situations keep coming up.

It seems here like you want something to change.


SET may or may not have a practical objective.

In situations where you want something to change, SET should be used with a practical objective.

Not doing so will manage dysregulation only for that particular instance.

It's not enough. It does nothing to the issue at hand.


Ideally, with (SET+a practical objective) she will attempt to solve the problem herself.

How?

In SET, "T" actually includes a very powerful statement: "What would you like to do about it?"

Recall though, you should ask it in a non-judgemental and non-blaming way.


If she is struggling to find a solution on her own, I would ask questions like this of myself:

What do *I* feel?

What do I want her to do?

What would she want me to do?

What is a healthy and/or loving solution?

What behaviour seems normal to me if we were both pw/oBPD?

Is there truth in what she is saying? So for example, do I in this case, read for sexual pleasure, therefore creating the insecurity trigger?

[gotbushels]

ProKonig


The triggers all seem related, it helps to find the bigger trigger.

It seems to be your past relationships affect her idea of an ideal partner.

Why? Get specific.

If the partner (you) has slept with other people, what causes her to think that you not her ideal partner?

[Stalwart]

Hey is it.

I can see that the situation with your wife is an ongoing concern that with the lines drawn seems to have little resolution.

I'm not overly certain what your choice of reading material is, or why that is you choice it, but it's evident that she is extremely sensitive to it. That's the one given in the situation that you can't control. That's just something over time perhaps she could build and understanding or trust on herself but I can't imagine it being forthcoming now that a firm issue of sides has been taken by her.

What would happen if we were to reverse the situation in a similar fashion. Let say your wife was extremely attractive when she had her hair down. They type you couldn't walk by without noticing and smiling at as a lot of men do. If the two of you were to continually go out and this happened would it not to some degree make you feel concerned or a bit insecure given the situation? If it did would you ask her to wear her hair a different way or perhaps dress down more? You have a legitimate concern that upsets you and plays into your securities. Would it be right to ask her to even?

Things being relative you are the one that has the best opportunity to change the situation so it is not so contentious in your relationship. Changing a habit, knowing it hurts, concerns or builds insecurities in another is necessary defined by being "yeah, definition of co-dependency". Perhaps more as being a consideration for the extend of emotion she feels when confronted by this situation. I would be more inclined if I slipped my ego aside to say that's defined as consideration and concern; caring for another person's feelings.

The fact you refuse to listen to what she feels as a legitimate concern is saying much more to her than you're just like all the other people throughout her life who just don't understand, ever will (or perhaps care.)

Understanding why triggers exist and the enormity of how they emotionally affect a partner is a requirement to come to a state of being able to truly empathize with their feelings and understandings.  :)o you know why she finds this so offensive? Are there situations from her past that trigger these actions as being deregulating for her? Do you also spend the time and effort to support the ideas that she is the only one attractive to you in any way to help set her mind at ease. Again, a long-term task to accomplish to a point of trust.

Don't know when the last time I went into sexually explicit writings were. I guess it's just not the style of writing that interests me as much as it seems to interest you. One thing for certain, of the two of you, you are the one who has the ability to rationalize this situation to a different or better outcome that can benefit both of you and your relationship, without being codependent. She isn't.

[Ms.Perfect]

She wants all your dreams and attention attached to her and only. She somehow dissapointed that you r reading about hot girl in the book. And you are honest that excactly hot book character is inportant.

She feels upset that you do not find her hot to stop reading.

She doesn't want to improve herself? and become hotter?

work on body, hair, nails clothes and make up. It is easier to make you stop reading it.

From my point she has huge insecurities. And she will alway bring up that conversation with you. She feels if you stop reading her feelings about herself will be higher.

From my point ( I am very hot) I can not see the reason why to stop my man reading books? If he enjoys it he can. He is not cheating. even if his dreams sometimes about some mistery girl. He can also watch some videos ( when i can not see) But even if I would know it is ok. Man is a man.

Why to make a problem when it is not exist... .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

She wants all your dreams and attention attached to her and only. She somehow dissapointed that you r reading about hot girl in the book. And you are honest that excactly hot book character is inportant.

She feels upset that you do not find her hot to stop reading.

This would be easier to understand if my wife wasn't hot... .she's got a body most 20+ women would want (we're in our 50's).

Yes, I understand her insecurities are a large part of it.  However, she extends the issue of my reading fiction from any/all uses of the word nipple, to hot female characters, to any female protagonist, to any female author... .she's complained about them all.

If it's not a book about an all male bible study group, she can find a problem with it.  I'm reading it because the character is something I want (instead of her) or I care about what a female writes (she should be the only female I care about what she thinks).

Once she deregulates I get it... .all the tools that are discussed here... .

However, in those few moments between discussion and insanity, how do you address their real concern that: 

   1. I love her

   2. She feels bad

   3. It's in my power to change my behavior

   4. If I change she will no longer feel bad

   5. I'm not changing

Therefore I don't love her Q.E.D.

[gotbushels]

"all male bible study group" 

---

Please read with salt, but it's true.

"Once she deregulates I get it... .all the tools that are discussed here... .

However, in those few moments between discussion and insanity"

You have the tools. The tools are built to deal with that space. It sounds like you're asking how to do it without the tools. I.e. how do you make her magically suit you better. That's fine too. I sometimes with I had a magic wand.


Which would you rather have:

Exhibit a: the freedom to think about buying this.



Exhibit b: too suffocated to breathe.



#easyBPproblems

Basically, you are trying to "address their real concern that" of (insert some behaviour here you want to change) "between discussion and insanity".

Can you answer this yourself? 

By the way, being helpful: 'insanity' can also be called 'consistent dysregulation' more accurately in this case.

[waverider]

"Lets not talk about the book lets talk about you, thats far more interesting"

It may not soley be about the content it is you being distracted by a 'fantasy world' which you may be judging her by. Your "escapism', the sexual aspect just being an easy to identify point to hang her angst on. Escapism is the threat/competition

Remember feelings are not always that aligned with the issue, the issue is just a vehicle to express them. Hence distancing the issue helps us more clealy understand the feeling.

If you dont JADE and stay consistent, even pwBPD will adapt, it just takes them longer than most.

[gotbushels]

Thanks for the headsup on JADE waverider! I just had a look over and it seems easier and more effective than what I was using. Your previous posts on it are also quite interesting.

Thank you also for expressing yourself so clearly above. 

[gotbushels]

waverider while you're here, could you please share how you would handle the issue? thank you!

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .think that is in a specific class of "unwinnable" arguments that I particularly hated.

Your wife is arguing with you about what YOUR reason for reading a book is.

In other words, she is arguing with you about what you are thinking or feeling.

The very structure of that is impossible--you can never prove to her what you are thinking or what you aren't thinking.

... .and I'm pretty sure that this issue is one where you can't make her happy by capitulating anyway. If you gave up all books that either had female characters or authors, she *would* find a reason to object to the men's bible study book.

[waverider]

waverider while you're here, could you please share how you would handle the issue? thank you!

Everyones situation is different but the process is similar

First off be certain in your own mind that you are being reasonable (your values)

Then state that this is how you view it but can see that it may upset her, unfortunately that cant be helped, reassure her that is not your intention and you will avoid putting it her face.

Make sure she does have plenty attention, then read (or do whatever a particular issue is about). When she complains, and she will, as she is not in control and the status quo is being upset. Clarify that you have already discussed this and nothing is to be gained by going around in circles.

It escalates, as this is the nature, you disengage but dont explain any further. Rinse repeat consistently. Be aware of not getting dragged into side issues and roundabout ways of approaching it. Adding words to the argument is like throwing stones at an avalanche you are just adding weight to the rockfall.

Eventually she will get fed up of banging her head on a stonewall and go find something else to get upset about. After all the feeling is still probably there (insecurity) and she will find a new vehicle to express it.

Keep your attention on helping her insecurities without getting distracted by this, or any other issue. The logical part of our mind wants to address the logic in front of us, but that is just a mirage. Its not the mirage of the oasis that she appears jealous about that is the problem, it is that she feels like she is in a desert and its the perceived lack of water that is the issue. no point trying to address the mirage of the oasis, better to aaddress the perception of being in a desert.

Two analogies in one post !

[gotbushels]

Waverider that is terrific sharing. Thank you. It helps me understand the past and ties closely with my future actions.

---

First off be certain in your own mind that you are being reasonable (your values)

This is a core principle. It was easier when I wasn't tired.

---

My behaviour was different to this:

It escalates, as this is the nature, you disengage but dont explain any further. Rinse repeat consistently.

Why was it different? I tend to do this, "If YOU don't change, things will stay the same", by changing myself.

The flipside is that the results didn't meet my expectations, therefore I sometimes continued changing my methods (SET-Validate on new topic / stimulus). I should have kept them as is (repetition on the *old* topic). Repetition is more effective.

Therefore your avalanche analogy is accurate to me.

---

Please clarify for me. When you do this:

Clarify that you have already discussed this and nothing is to be gained by going around in circles.

When she opens the relevant dialogue, is this specifically how you do it:

BP: "What the f* is wrong you why are you reading that book"?

Non: (non-judgemental open, kind) "BP, we've already discussed this at length."

BP: "So what, you're still f*ing reading?"

Do you repeatedly (1) just neutrally look at her (no info conveyed) while she talks and/or (2) go back to reading?

From there if she starts getting physical I would then perform limit enforcements. But I want to make sure, is this what you would always start with until she corrects herself?

Thank you. This info is going to be so helpful.

---

I didn't address it here but your mirage analogy is very, very good. In fact it feels like I've seen it before, but that doesn't change its value.

Thanks waverider.

[gotbushels]

If you gave up all books that either had female characters or authors, she *would* find a reason to object to the men's bible study book.

True to the nth.

<edit> GK. Looking at it. You hit an important principle spot on.

When I read IsItHerOrIsItMe's original issue, one of the options in my head was just "ugh, this again, I'm just gonna read another book, she should go away".

You reminded me of the concise reason why doing something 'natural' is ineffective. It is even enabling. Ugh I feel so tired remembering what it was like.

Great reminder.

[Ms.Perfect]

She wants her man concentrate only on her. She want his thought belong to her.

She is jealous.

How would you feel if SHE will start imagining other guys with her? In book, in moovie, in friends? Have HOT and Successful man friends who in fact like her?

[waverider]

When she opens the relevant dialogue, is this specifically how you do it:

BP: "What the f* is wrong you why are you reading that book"?

Non: (non-judgemental open, kind) "BP, we've already discussed this at length."

BP: "So what, you're still f*ing reading?"

Do you repeatedly (1) just neutrally look at her (no info conveyed) while she talks and/or (2) go back to reading?

Go read it somewhere else. She can either have you around, or not, her choice. Your choice is not to allow yourself to be subject to abuse. Thats basic boundary no1. Just make sure you dont get into conflict out of principle. ie. Deliberatly do it in ful expectation it is going to start a fight. Like everything it is balance

[an0ught]

Go read it somewhere else. She can either have you around, or not, her choice. Your choice is not to allow yourself to be subject to abuse. Thats basic boundary no1. Just make sure you dont get into conflict out of principle. ie. Deliberatly do it in ful expectation it is going to start a fight. Like everything it is balance

being elsewhere for reading is the way to go. She is triggered by what you do. She is projecting her insecurities on your reading. Nothing wrong with what you do but she perceives it as invalidating. Lack of boundaries in general likely the root cause for oversensitive reactions.

Space helps here. Will also allow you to reach a deeper level of relaxation when reading.

Things may get better once solid boundaries have been in place for a while.

[gotbushels]

Thanks gentlemen. That's very wise.

Wow. Why didn't such an effective answer come naturally to me? 

Ugh I'm a bit disappointed in myself. It's not natural for me to go to boundaries in this specific situation type. It feels that if I walk away from a math problem, I fail it. I seem to have taught myself walk away = failure. Leave no man behind. My pwBPD would wake me up in the middle of the night and cling to my leg saying, "don't leave me, promise me you'll never leave". But walking away can really be the most effective behaviour in this case. It's so dastardly counter-intuitive. If one stays to interact sometimes, that's even invalidating. I'm subtly conveying that they can't solve it themselves. Motivation 101. How did I not see this before. I need to work on this.

It's awesome that I got two reticent 'veteran' nons to answer. I am so, so grateful. Thanks guys, you can bet I will put effort into this. Thanks so much.

[waverider]

The key to 'leaving' is to be crystal clear that you will be coming back, to reduce abandonment, and not do it a bad mood. Then use consistency to prove you do come back, and the sky is not going to fall in during the meantime.

Wont go down well at first but it eventually becomes a precedent. This eventually morphs into less drastic action where you learn to subtly disengage when you sense triggering rather going to full on use of boundaries. This is a general comment and not just pertaining to this issue.

It also helps to demonstrate that you do have your rights and are prepared to stand by them. Try to stay low key about it, it is much easier to gently tap the thin end of wedge in first, no need to give it a big clout

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks gentlemen. That's very wise.

Wow. Why didn't such an effective answer come naturally to me? 

Ugh I'm a bit disappointed in myself. It's not natural for me to go to boundaries in this specific situation type.

I'm betting you were raised in a way that taught you NOT to enforce your boundaries. If not, you were in a relationship where you were taught that very same thing. The newness is why it doesn't feel natural.

In my favorite essay on boundaries, which covers them from very basic issues to subtle ones, the author says this fascinating and humble thing about his own learning process:

First, I had to learn to hang up. Then I had to practice hanging up on sales people. Later, I worked on being able to hang up on my ex-wife. This learning process may take a long time.  I think I can now determine whether I want to hang up and can do it in almost all circumstances when I choose.  My training took about 20 years.

www.alturtle.com/archives/173

So please, cut yourself some slack over what you haven't learned, how long it takes, or how uncomfortable and difficult this new behavior is for you. That is VERY normal.

[gotbushels]

Thanks waverider and Grey Kitty for your additional posts. I see them both and am going to start work on the issue.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

So help me with how to express the boundary that I won't participate in the same discussion/interrogation yet again.

In this case, most of our discussions don't start because she sees me reading.  It's brought up because of some other activity, we were in a group where someone asked about a book, I know before we go to bed she will want to have the "book discussion".

You all know how it works... .Like an expert prosecutor she begins with an innocent sounding question, one in the non-BPD world it would be simple, but in the BPD world it raises the hair on the back of your neck because you know the end-game... .


(1) "So, have you read that book they were talking about?"

My answer doesn't really matter... .yes or no, liked it or not... .

(2) "I don't understand why you/men/people like that sort of thing... .I like books about real things"

My answer doesn't really matter... .have gone down all the rabbit holes over the years... .

(3) "I just don't think I can compete with the women in those books... ."

My answer doesn't really matter... .but at least at this point I can use SET.

(4) "If that's the type of woman you want... .just let me know and I'll step aside"

... .SET obviously failed... .starting to push my buttons... .

(5) "But I'm your wife and I just want to know what you think... ."

... .If we get this far now I'm angry... .she can't possibly not know what I think so she's lying as a tool to keep the conversation going... .

So at what point do you state a boundary?  If she's at all honest and self-aware she should realize before (1) what she's doing and where the conversation is heading.  But if she's not honest or self-aware she can declare she's just having a conversation.

Do I wait until (3)?  At this point I can at least validate things (again, only when she's being honest... .other times she won't actually express what she's feeling).

By the time we get to (5) the original point is buried in a field of old complaints/arguments that nothing good will come from the conversation.

With nonBPD's I would state after (1), we disagree on that... .no need to rehash that old argument... .and we'd be done.

Is that where most of you veteran non's would state your boundary?

[C.Stein]

Is that where most of you veteran non's would state your boundary?

I'm curious, what is your boundary here?

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Is that where most of you veteran non's would state your boundary?

I'm curious, what is your boundary here?

It's usually a form of "I understand we don't agree about reading, but I'm not going to be berated by having the book conversation again".

[C.Stein]

It's usually a form of "I understand we don't agree about reading, but I'm not going to be berated by having the book conversation again".

Ok.  So why do you think she feels so insecure with regard to your reading material?  What do you think you can do to help her feel less insecure, short of not reading the material that triggers her insecurity?

[Grey Kitty]

Boundary enforcement is an action you take to protect yourself.

Regarding books, I'm going to propose a few possible boundaries and how you would enforce them in that scenario:

Boundary #1: What books I read is my choice.

Enforcement statement (1) "I don't want to talk to you about books."

Boundary #2: I will not be verbally/emotionally abused.

When it really starts to feel like interrogation, leading questions, controlling you, probably (3) or (4), time for an enforcement statement:

"I will not be spoken to this way."

Boundary #3: My thoughts and feelings are mine.

This thing here is one that really got to me in my marriage... .

(5) "But I'm your wife and I just want to know what you think... ."

... .If we get this far now I'm angry... .she can't possibly not know what I think so she's lying as a tool to keep the conversation going... .

What I got was statements about how I thought she wasn't attractive, etc. And there was no way I could convince her I didn't think those things. (Because she couldn't really read my mind!) It also made me furious to be accused of such things, or of lying about what I was thinking about.

I would note that I don't think either my wife or yours is actually LYING -- Instead she is projecting her own insecurities** and fears onto you, then attacking you for thinking that. Which is a defense mechanism instead of acknowledging her own fears. She isn't aware she's doing it, so it isn't lying.

My boundary there was "I will not talk to you when you are telling me what I think or feel."

I gave her some explanations of why, including that she doesn't ACTUALLY read my mind, so if she accuses me of thinking something, she could be wrong... .and even if she was right, if I STOP thinking this thing, since she doesn't actually read my mind, I can never prove to her that I've stopped. So I won't discuss it.

I've also said that if she wants to ASK what I'm thinking, without telling me what it means, or that I'm wrong, I am willing to have that kind of discussion with her. (This part only when she's not dysregulated/worked up/interrogating/attacking/etc.)

... .All of these boundary enforcement statements are my initial statement. If she accepts the statement, that is all that is needed. If she continues, further stronger actions (like leaving the room or the house) will be required... .

Which of these boundaries do you want to enforce?

** Note--those underlying insecurities of hers would be worth validating, but this reply has already gotten too long, and your boundaries need to be solid first.

[gotbushels]

IsItHerOrIsItMe I read your situation. I know the hairs-on-end well even though I'm no longer conditioned.

Seems like you've decided to go with limits.

The others besides GK haven't replied, so I'll try chip in here.

So at what point do you state a boundary?  If she's at all honest and self-aware she should realize before (1) what she's doing and where the conversation is heading.  But if she's not honest or self-aware she can declare she's just having a conversation.

Do it at (1). You've made it pretty clear "W doesn't believe I understand her feelings because I have not changed my behavior even after she has expressed (100's of times) #3". I usually assumed my ex didn't get it, and it was a much safer option.

Do I wait until (3)?

I'd try do a limit at (1). Things were easiest if I did the right thing early. Limits were usually the right thing.

At (1):

1. D ---your words

2. E ---your words

3. A: Validate 1,2, or 3 times (you decide), then "I don't want to talk to you about books." (GK)

4. R ---your words

5. + switch topic, or purposefully end your conversation if you don't want to talk to her.

You mentioned:

Do I wait until (3)?  At this point I can at least validate things (again, only when she's being honest... .other times she won't actually express what she's feeling).

This is a non-issue because DEA will usually involve at least 3 validations anyway. It seems like all your book discussions lead to "the book discussion", so I'd just DEAR early. At another time I would see if I can help her sort out the issue on a deeper level.

Will it work? It worked for me. I could get to the point of 'broken record' + blank face combo repeatedly. Remember to topic switch or you will be validating until one of you pass out (what I did).

Please let us know how things work out.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Boundary enforcement is an action you take to protect yourself.

Regarding books, I'm going to propose a few possible boundaries and how you would enforce them in that scenario:

This thing here is one that really got to me in my marriage... .

(5) "But I'm your wife and I just want to know what you think... ."

... .If we get this far now I'm angry... .she can't possibly not know what I think so she's lying as a tool to keep the conversation going... .

What I got was statements about how I thought she wasn't attractive, etc. And there was no way I could convince her I didn't think those things. (Because she couldn't really read my mind!) It also made me furious to be accused of such things, or of lying about what I was thinking about.

I would note that I don't think either my wife or yours is actually LYING -- Instead she is projecting her own insecurities** and fears onto you, then attacking you for thinking that. Which is a defense mechanism instead of acknowledging her own fears. She isn't aware she's doing it, so it isn't lying.

My boundary there was "I will not talk to you when you are telling me what I think or feel."

Which of these boundaries do you want to enforce?

This boundary sounds like a good one to add... .I've repeatedly pointed out when she's "playing the omnipotent card"... .i.e. telling me what I think.

So dumb question... .with this as a boundary how do you actually enforce it... .Kind of like a 3 strike rule?

Do you state it once as you're walking out the door?  Do you state it once... .second time remove yourself?  If she makes the same type of statement twice in 5 minutes... .then remove myself? 

This is where I think she's good at figuring out the pattern, then repeatedly finding how far she can push it before puling back... .then pushing again up to the edge until I'm ready to disengage and then pulling back.

[waverider]

This is where I think she's good at figuring out the pattern, then repeatedly finding how far she can push it before puling back... .then pushing again up to the edge until I'm ready to disengage and then pulling back.

Dont have a pattern or routine, the consistency we speak of needs to be the principle. ie X behavior will lead to Y consequence. Y doesn't have to be put into effect at a set %of X, or after a certain amount of flagging. The defining point is when it is making you feel yuk, that in itself can vary.