What if it's true?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My last post and our conversation brought up something in me big time.

I am very afraid that what my boyfriend says about me is true.

This is a big fear of mine. My entire life I've been afraid what my BPD mother said about me was true. I fought against it, worked hard to detach and to heal. It has been hard, especially since my surviving siblings bought into the dysfunction and drama, and I remain painted black. In fact I am even blamed her death... .they say it was because I broke her heart. Never mind she had a revolving door of sex offenders live with us. My mother said really mean, cruel things to me. She also triangulated and split all her children against each other and especially me, because I reported the abuse.

Boyfriend says the same things my mother did: that I am crazy, that I are deranged, no one will love me, and so forth. The hard thing is I worry at least some of these things are true.

I am going to write out what he says and my fears and thoughts and history. I will be very honest:

Boyfriend says "you are crazy" or "you are deranged."

Reality: I have had hard times, especially in our relationship. I have PTSD and have gotten dysregulated. I have had periods of feeling suicidal in the past. I work hard on this stuff, but yeah, there have been times I have had crying fits and panic attacks. I didn't have these with my old partner. But they have emerged with boyfriend. His rages trigger my PTSD. A few times he got physical and this really triggered me. From his perspective I am a crazy person by having a crying fit. Does that mean I am crazy? My mother also accused me of being crazy. Her narrative was I am damaged and broken. She once wrote my daughter a letter saying I had adopted from foster care because I was incapable of love. Thanks, mom. This is a core wound for me. 

Boyfriend says "you suck all the energy out of the room" and "you are too needy."

Reality: it has felt that my needs seem too big for our relationship. Am I too needy? The more he has recycled me the more my attachment has become shattered, and yes, very anxious. Efforts to get reassurance or stability end up with the response of being too needy. I can see how it feels that way to him. You see how these thoughts go in my mind? I start feeling his view makes sense. Then I think wait a second, this is a guy who feels smothered if someone is even in the same room with him. I quickly lose clarity around these issues. Being told I am too needy is another core wound.

Boyfriend says "your mother was right" and "no one will ever love you."

Reality, okay here I know he is being cruel, because these are things I shared with him and he says them to hurt me. My kids love me and I have secure attachments with them. My longterm relationship of 15 years was strong and positive for a long time. My ex doesn't think I am crazy, btw. But then part of me thinks how is it two people I loved say this about me? There has to be good reason. Being told no one will ever love me is my biggest core wound.

Boyfriend accuses me of "maligning him," accuses me of "chewing him out," "attacking him," and other ways of being a mean person.

Reality: I have gotten angry at boyfriend. Most these instances, though, are my honest efforts to have a discussion or even just a comment I make that sounds mild to me, and boyfriend says I am attacking him. However over time my hurt and resentments have grown. He cannot seem to forgive and forget anything. I am just realizing typing this that my mom also made these accusations against me, especially to my siblings. She claimed I had called her up and screamed at her, for instance, when I did no such thing. One time she told me I was worse than a rapist. I often felt blindsided by these accusations. Being told I am mean is a very tender area for me.

I think the ruminating is in part my fear that when he says this stuff, either to me or others, that he is telling the truth. He is so convinced his reality becomes my reality.

Thank you for letting me process this stuff!

[HurtinNW]

My last post and our conversation brought up something in me big time.

I am very afraid that what my boyfriend says about me is true.

This is a big fear of mine. My entire life I've been afraid what my BPD mother said about me was true. I fought against it, worked hard to detach and to heal. It has been hard, especially since my surviving siblings bought into the dysfunction and drama, and I remain painted black. In fact I am even blamed her death... .they say it was because I broke her heart. Never mind she had a revolving door of sex offenders live with us. My mother said really mean, cruel things to me. She also triangulated and split all her children against each other and especially me, because I reported the abuse.

Boyfriend says the same things my mother did: that I am crazy, that I are deranged, no one will love me, and so forth. The hard thing is I worry at least some of these things are true.

I am going to write out what he says and my fears and thoughts and history. I will be very honest:

Boyfriend says "you are crazy" or "you are deranged."

Reality: I have had hard times, especially in our relationship. I have PTSD and have gotten dysregulated. I have had periods of feeling suicidal in the past. I work hard on this stuff, but yeah, there have been times I have had crying fits and panic attacks. I didn't have these with my old partner. But they have emerged with boyfriend. His rages trigger my PTSD. A few times he got physical and this really triggered me. From his perspective I am a crazy person by having a crying fit. Does that mean I am crazy? My mother also accused me of being crazy. Her narrative was I am damaged and broken. She once wrote my daughter a letter saying I had adopted from foster care because I was incapable of love. Thanks, mom. This is a core wound for me. 

Boyfriend says "you suck all the energy out of the room" and "you are too needy."

Reality: it has felt that my needs seem too big for our relationship. Am I too needy? The more he has recycled me the more my attachment has become shattered, and yes, very anxious. Efforts to get reassurance or stability end up with the response of being too needy. I can see how it feels that way to him. You see how these thoughts go in my mind? I start feeling his view makes sense. Then I think wait a second, this is a guy who feels smothered if someone is even in the same room with him. I quickly lose clarity around these issues. Being told I am too needy is another core wound.

Boyfriend says "your mother was right" and "no one will ever love you."

Reality, okay here I know he is being cruel, because these are things I shared with him and he says them to hurt me. My kids love me and I have secure attachments with them. My longterm relationship of 15 years was strong and positive for a long time. My ex doesn't think I am crazy, btw. But then part of me thinks how is it two people I loved say this about me? There has to be good reason. Being told no one will ever love me is my biggest core wound.

Boyfriend accuses me of "maligning him," accuses me of "chewing him out," "attacking him," and other ways of being a mean person.

Reality: I have gotten angry at boyfriend. Most these instances, though, are my honest efforts to have a discussion or even just a comment I make that sounds mild to me, and boyfriend says I am attacking him. However over time my hurt and resentments have grown. He cannot seem to forgive and forget anything. I am just realizing typing this that my mom also made these accusations against me, especially to my siblings. She claimed I had called her up and screamed at her, for instance, when I did no such thing. One time she told me I was worse than a rapist. I often felt blindsided by these accusations. Being told I am mean is a very tender area for me.

I think the ruminating is in part my fear that when he says this stuff, either to me or others, that he is telling the truth. He is so convinced his reality becomes my reality.

Thank you for letting me process this stuff!

[eeks]

Hi HurtinNW,

There are a number of things to be wary of when accepting critical feedback from others.  I am conscientious and want to take others' feedback seriously, and it sounds like you are too.  Something I see in your responses is that it sounds like you are taking your boyfriend's past words literally, and evaluating rationally the truth of them, and I think there are good reasons to be very cautious about doing that when the speaker is someone with a personality disorder. 

My opinion is that shame is both a sign that one may be taking on another's emotions around a criticism, and an impediment to genuine personal growth (i.e. if you are feeling shame, find a way to back off a bit and take it slower)

It is also important to be aware of projection and projective identification.  My understanding of these is maybe not on the level of a psychoanalyst, but one distinction I have heard made is that projection is putting your feelings onto someone else, and projective identification is putting your feelings into someone else.  So, projection might be, you're angry, and you don't want to admit it, so you say to someone else "what are you so angry for all the time?" whereas projective identification might be, you're angry, and you behave towards someone else in a way that provokes them to anger and then you say "what are you getting so angry about?"  In either case the sender "recruits" the recipient to "hold" their unwanted emotions and experiences.

At this point in my own process, I take feedback from my dreams and from my movement (conscious dance and 5 Rhythms) practice.  Honestly, there's more than enough there to work with.  I used to see a therapist but I found it was a long time, a lot of money and had many good insights out of it but no real change in my day-to-day mood, and I couldn't justify the cost anymore.  However, a therapist is another person whose insights can be trusted (with caution; some therapists have not done their own awareness and healing work)

It is possible that the things your boyfriend said about you have some tiny grain of truth... .but it may not look much like the original statements he made, and you'd probably need significant introspection (and some guidance) to find it.

eeks

[snowmonkey]

Hi HurtinNW,

I think that your post is a really good one. It is very important to think about ourselves and question what we do and think in a cognisant manner. After all, we are all a little bit crazy and can all be more healthy.

I also think however that we shouldn't give too much credence to specific comments, made at specific times by people who themselves are also a little crazy. I would suggest that you try and put the comments made by your partner (and mother) into the context of when they were made and how they were made.

So, some things you should just disregard, especially those that are directed at you in a hurtful manner. For example, I find it very hard to believe that you are the cause of your mother's death and that you will never be loved. People who say these things are either acting out of their own anger or are trying to manipulate you in some way.

But, as you recognise, there are other things that you can work at. And it is a great start that you have the ability to see that sometimes you act in a dysregulated (as you put it) fashion.

Best of luck!

[Grey Kitty]

If I get you right, you intellectually KNOW that these sorts of things that your BF and mother and the rest of your FOO (or most of it) say about you are not true.

There may be a kernel of truth in them, but that isn't the whole story.

That these statements are abusive, manipulative, projection, or gaslighting, etc.

Yet you FEEL afraid they actually are true.

If that is right... .I'm going to challenge you to examine that "feeling" you have. "You are crazy" or "I am crazy" is not a feeling, it is a thought. Next time it comes up, can you look for the actual feeling behind it? (fear and shame are feelings, for example.)

[HurtinNW]

Hello Grey Kitty

Sometimes I worry intellectually they are true. I worry that maybe I am crazy, and no one will love me. There was another thread I was just reading about how growing up with a BPD parent can make you question your own reality. This is so much my story. I grew up with a totally topsy turvy reality that I am only now really seeing.

Then other times I think it can't all be true. I have a lot of evidence the claims are not true.

But you right it is the feeling they might be true that is the real issue. The feeling under the worries is fear. Huge, panicked, crippling fear. Fear that I am lost. Fear that no one will come for me, fear that my needs will never be met. Raw terror, too. And also hurt. Deep awful hurt that the people I loved more than anything would hurt me so badly.

Thank you—from now one when I have these worries I am going to ask myself what the feeling is.

[doubleAries]

HurtinNW--

UGH! I know exactly what you are talking about! I do this all the time!

I grew up with a witch mother (and an NPD father who was even more insidious) who pounded into my head that I was BAD, BAD, BAD (she had a lot more colorful language than that). Determined to not be like her (she couldn't accept any responsibility for her own wretched behavior) I went clear to the other extreme. Which goes along "nicely" with the self view that was instilled in me--that of BAD. I lose all sense of identity and question myself endlessly as to whether these things said about me (by abusive people) are true. And then I re-enact my childhood--try to be gooder and better so I will be lovable.

Do I have "issues" after growing up the way I did? You betcha! And I work on those issues constantly. One of those issues is that my thoughts and my emotions don't always match up. Like this quote: " Unfortunately, battling all her life to reject mother’s judgments has not prevented Alice from internalizing them."

"even when they read books by Alice Miller and call their parents’ narcissists—these patients can nevertheless spend much of their adult lives in a post-traumatic state, unable to be dissuaded that “the badness” really begins at the very core of their being."

Both of these come from this article www.danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Enter_Ghosts.pdf

Have you ever read Pete Walkers book "Complex PTSD: from surviving to thriving"? He has a website too www.pete-walker.com/ with a lot of the material from the book for free. Really good tools.

[eeks]

If that is right... .I'm going to challenge you to examine that "feeling" you have. "You are crazy" or "I am crazy" is not a feeling, it is a thought. Next time it comes up, can you look for the actual feeling behind it? (fear and shame are feelings, for example.)

Good suggestion, GK.  Sometimes I'll be in distress and the words in my head are "I am unworthy of love" and if I investigate that, I find that I do not really believe it is true... .but it's more like, a deeply embedded protection against something else.  So I tried out your exercise here, and what came up (at least this time) is fear of abandonment.  I sometimes do what I call a "rewind and slow motion" to find the "forbidden" emotion or behaviour... .i.e. what was I doing just before the fear or shame, that same came up to "protect" me from?  In this case it's maybe a bit of anger but more like... .willfulness?  Knowing very clearly what I want to do? Which makes sense since I've determined that autonomy/individuation/identity is one of my major issues, something that was not fostered in my FOO.  (both my parents had authoritarian, severely perfectionistic parents).  And I keep on looking and see that (contrary to what I often feel) I have enough internal "motive power" to live life.  

I should point out to readers that having an insight like this doesn't mean the process is "over, done, never have to do it again", I have had similar insights to this before, and I flip-flop back and forth between that and the painful stuff, but I think that's part of the process.

But you right it is the feeling they might be true that is the real issue. The feeling under the worries is fear. Huge, panicked, crippling fear. Fear that I am lost. Fear that no one will come for me, fear that my needs will never be met. Raw terror, too. And also hurt. Deep awful hurt that the people I loved more than anything would hurt me so badly.

Hurtin, would it be helpful to remember (or at least try to) that you were inherently worthy of love and attuned care, as all children are, and that your parents being unable to provide that for you was their shortcoming, not yours?

Children do blame themselves, because they need to feel bonded to their caregivers.  It's that fantasy, "my parents would love me if only I was good enough", that gives the child some sense of control so they can feel secure.  

I apologize if I've already asked you this, but do you have a therapist?  You describe feelings of raw terror, and hurt.  These are your real emotions in response to your life history.  Yet, they can be overwhelming, as your description shows.  Having those feelings validated and "held" by a skilled, emotionally attuned therapist (which I often point out is not all of them), could be very beneficial to your healing.

[HurtinNW]

eeks, I have a therapist but haven't been able to see her for some time due to money. And also because we got into some weirdness where she saw my boyfriend and I for couples counseling, and saw him alone as well. That felt really unmooring to me in the end... .it kind of contaminated our therapy. Like his ghost is in the room. She stopped seeing him a long time ago and later told me she realized that had been a bad idea.

I do think I need to find some affordable therapy. I'm in a lot of pain... .I was going to post on that.

I can know that my mother was mentally ill, but it is hard for me to internalize a feeling of worth. For most my life I have mistaken achievement or fighting back as the same as worth. I am now realizing I have very little self worth. I do not love myself and frankly have no idea what that would even feel like.

Doublearies, I will definitely look into that. I have a dx of PTSD and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't c-PTSD at this point, from the added trauma of this relationship.

[Grey Kitty]

I should point out to readers that having an insight like this doesn't mean the process is "over, done, never have to do it again", I have had similar insights to this before, and I flip-flop back and forth between that and the painful stuff, but I think that's part of the process.

Often the real work is experiencing the feelings. The "insight" somehow is supposed to fix things... .yet it doesn't seem to go that way for me. And I still want/hope/expect to get results from just the insight. I don't know whether to laugh or sigh deeply over that!

[gotbushels]

Next time it comes up, can you look for the actual feeling behind it? (fear and shame are feelings, for example.)

Please do this, it helps a lot.

It helps me to do it by writing it down when I'm on my own. Just one or two words per feeling. Makes it easier to handle.

Boyfriend accuses me of "maligning him," accuses me of "chewing him out," "attacking him," and other ways of being a mean person.

Reality: I have gotten angry at boyfriend. Most these instances, though, are my honest efforts to have a discussion or even just a comment I make that sounds mild to me, and boyfriend says I am attacking him. However over time my hurt and resentments have grown. He cannot seem to forgive and forget anything.

There is a lot of negative stimuli. It feels to me like those are really a lot of judgements between you and your boyfriend. But those accusations on their own don't seem connect with an honest discussion.

Mind sharing a bit more? How are such big judgements coming out from honest discussion? How is it going from a basic discussion to such a set of judgements?

[HurtinNW]

Boyfriend accuses me of "maligning him," accuses me of "chewing him out," "attacking him," and other ways of being a mean person.

Reality: I have gotten angry at boyfriend. Most these instances, though, are my honest efforts to have a discussion or even just a comment I make that sounds mild to me, and boyfriend says I am attacking him. However over time my hurt and resentments have grown. He cannot seem to forgive and forget anything.

There is a lot of negative stimuli. It feels to me like those are really a lot of judgements between you and your boyfriend. But those accusations on their own don't seem connect with an honest discussion.

Mind sharing a bit more? How are such big judgements coming out from honest discussion? How is it going from a basic discussion to such a set of judgements?

Thank you gotbushels. That's a really good question. Despite trying different therapists and other tools, we seem unable to have a conversation around a serious issue. I think both of us are sensitive, and reactive to each other.

From my perspective, boyfriend engages in a LOT of highly personalized, over the top responses. These quickly derail honest discussion. He also has a hair trigger temper. Issues not only are unresolved in the primary conversation they become fodder for more anger and judgement. Here's a real life example:

Three years ago we went out of town for a holiday with me and my kids. Originally I had said it would be nice for boyfriend and I to be able to relax while the kids played in the pool. When we arrived for the holiday, boyfriend spent all his time inside the hotel room. He refused to do anything with me or the kids. We went hiking, played games, and so forth, all without him. After a few days of this, I tried to tell boyfriend I would like him to join in an activity or two. I felt I did a good job being calm and supportive in my request. Boyfriend went from zero to sixty in anger, saying I had "set him up" by saying we would relax and now I wanted him to join in. He blew up at me and stormed out of the restaurant we were in.

When he was more regulated later he admitted that he felt uncomfortable swimming and doing those sort of activities. I personally suspected that was true but also that he was just plain uncomfortable spending time in close proximity with us. He has lived alone most his life. He is in his 50s. But he is not able to really "own" those feelings, or stay in that place.

Over the next few years boyfriend would return to this resentment over and over again during arguments. He stores resentments and over time has collected a lot. He is very fixated on "fairness" and felt I was being unfair by saying we would relax and then asking him to do things. In my mind the conversation could have easily resolved that I had pictured relaxing as involving family activities, and maybe he had pictured it as reading all day in the hotel room: that we had a misunderstanding. But that is never the outcome of our conversations.

Fast forward to last year. We were trying to have a romantic dinner on my back deck in a period of reengaged following a break up. Things seemed to be going well. I made an offhand mention of the city where that holiday had occurred. Boyfriend immediately stood up and began raging. I walked away to disengage and watered the garden. He followed me and later made a half-apology, saying that I had reminded him of that holiday, but he was right back in the hot temper and fresh anger of feeling I had set him up. He ended up raging and being verbally abusive to me that evening. It is in these rages he says I am crazy, needy, demanding, deranged, etc. Many times he breaks up with me.

For my role, I have definitely built up my share of resentments. I resent I am cast as the persecutor and I resent feeling trapped in this awful dynamic. I have PTSD and I get flooded in these times. Over time I have become hyper-vigilant and walking on eggshells. My own ability to keep calm and cool has been reduced, and I take accountability for reacting myself. That night I fell apart, crying and having a panic attack. Interestingly this always made him angrier.

Hope that answers the question!

[eeks]

I grew up with a witch mother (and an NPD father who was even more insidious) who pounded into my head that I was BAD, BAD, BAD (she had a lot more colorful language than that). Determined to not be like her (she couldn't accept any responsibility for her own wretched behavior) I went clear to the other extreme. Which goes along "nicely" with the self view that was instilled in me--that of BAD. I lose all sense of identity and question myself endlessly as to whether these things said about me (by abusive people) are true. And then I re-enact my childhood--try to be gooder and better so I will be lovable.

DoubleAries, your response got me thinking "why are member stories so consistent in personality disordered parents telling (or otherwise sending the message) their kids they are BAD/unworthy/defective/incompetent/etc.etc.etc.?"  I know about the narcissistic mechanism of "all the good is in me, all the bad is in you", but why in turn is that there?

What do you think about the idea that to some extent we (with variations in severity) were raised by distressed little kids in adult bodies?  I am finding that a helpful perspective, in that it reduces self-blame.  Margalis Fjelstad writes that pwBPD and pwNPD feel strong emotions, don't know what's causing them, and blame someone else.  

I can know that my mother was mentally ill, but it is hard for me to internalize a feeling of worth. For most my life I have mistaken achievement or fighting back as the same as worth. I am now realizing I have very little self worth. I do not love myself and frankly have no idea what that would even feel like.

I hear you.  I don't "love myself" either.  It's a metaphor that obviously appeals to some people (otherwise they would not repeat it), but I think what actually happens is more of a gradual acceptance of all of one's own experience, including the trauma associated emotions. 

And I think maybe the challenge you face is that ultimately feelings of worth are internalized by feeling worthy in another person's eyes.  We can practice meditation or "emotion mindfulness" (like what a few of us have alluded to here, noticing feelings) and that's helpful, but there's nothing like being loved by another to teach you how to love yourself.  And furthermore, real love doesn't just stick around for the happy pretty parts and bolt when things get unpleasant, but stays deeply present through the shame, fear, anger.  (That's a practice, too.  And I am not meaning to suggest that anyone should have stuck with their pwBPD despite dysregulation and raging.  I am talking about our own emotions and how do we find a "home" for them in our relationships.)

A relationship with a pwBPD probably won't provide this sense of worth, since they do not have the stable sense of self to be able to do that.  What I've read about adult attachment style in intimate relationships is that the amygdala reacts to threats to relationship stability (e.g. criticism) the same as it would to a threat to physical safety, and partners need to learn how to soothe each other.  Dr. Sue Johnson uses the analogy of love as a dance between partners, and there will always be missteps, even between securely attached partners, the difference is that secure couples learn ways to quickly get back into the rhythm (i.e. prevent escalation of conflict).  However, I don't think intimate relationships are the only source of this kind of security.  We can get some of it from therapists, friends. 

So, here I am, sending you waves of gentleness across the Internet   

[doubleAries]

"self love".

When I think of this, I think of narcissism and react with repulsion.

Like some of you here, I have also started rooting out the emotion behind the thoughts. And it always seems to come back to that fear (terror, really) of rejection and abandonment, plus the self image of BAD. It's a lot easier to see the parent wBPD more objectively as an adult---but those coping methods are already in place.

And no--insight/realizations don't make it go away. Which shreds the perfectionist that tried harder and harder to be gooder and better in order to be loved.

And HurtinNW, I also really, really hate being cast as the persecutor. DUH! I'm the rescuer! (except when I'm pinging around the triangle to the other positions). And like you, I also have mistaken achievement and/or fighting back as worth. Still do frequently. Point of reference is all messed up! Sure, I see it in other people and try to emulate it, but have a hard time grasping the core of it, rather than just the situational example I saw in someone else. And am always scared to death to overcompensate and be a narcissist.

Sigh... .it's hard. But I know there has been a lot of progress. Like Pete Walker points out--it's a journey, not a destination. As long as I cling to "am I 'there' yet?" I never measure up.

[doubleAries]

I took my "little self" on a tour of my house the other morning. To show her/me what a good job I have done of making a safe place for her/me.

Sounds corny, but it was actually quite soothing.

[HurtinNW]

A relationship with a pwBPD probably won't provide this sense of worth, since they do not have the stable sense of self to be able to do that.  What I've read about adult attachment style in intimate relationships is that the amygdala reacts to threats to relationship stability (e.g. criticism) the same as it would to a threat to physical safety, and partners need to learn how to soothe each other.  Dr. Sue Johnson uses the analogy of love as a dance between partners, and there will always be missteps, even between securely attached partners, the difference is that secure couples learn ways to quickly get back into the rhythm (i.e. prevent escalation of conflict).  However, I don't think intimate relationships are the only source of this kind of security.  We can get some of it from therapists, friends. 

So, here I am, sending you waves of gentleness across the Internet   

Thank you so much, eeks. A funny BPD story: I had read Sue Johnson's book and gave it to boyfriend. He thought EFT therapy would be good for us. This was our last therapy effort. We have gone through several therapists. So we find this guy who does EFT. Of course it didn't work at all. Boyfriend spent our sessions doing his regurgitation of my alleged crimes, always getting more worked up. He simply was not able to follow the process.

Later I asked him for his thoughts on EFT. He thought it was about me learning to soothe him.  Not a bad idea, but he totally missed the two way street part!

[gotbushels]

Thank you for sharing HurtinNW.

From my perspective, boyfriend engages in a LOT of highly personalized, over the top responses. These quickly derail honest discussion. He also has a hair trigger temper. Issues not only are unresolved in the primary conversation they become fodder for more anger and judgement. Here's a real life example:

A hair trigger temper is hard to deal with in any relational discussion. While it is tempting to judge, let's keep away from that. So let's see what we can work with on your side.

Despite trying different therapists and other tools, we seem unable to have a conversation around a serious issue. I think both of us are sensitive, and reactive to each other.

This is a key sentence. Well done!

It's mature of you to identify both your roles in contributing to a discussion.

Sensitivity signals that we shouldn't bite off more than we can chew in discussions. Be prepared to talk about just one little piece, manage emotion, and close the discussion. It may leave you feeling more satisfied.

---

It's good that you guys know of some tools from therapy. Have you heard of the validation rule of three? It can often set you free.

Three years ago we went out of town for a holiday with me and my kids.

Thank you for your story. I'm reading there is some disappointment that would have followed that story.

Based on that, I share that it's fair to feel disappointed from some holidays. Despite the relaxing environment, it doesn't help us to relax on a relationship level. That's disappointing.

In my mind the conversation could have easily resolved that I had pictured relaxing as involving family activities, and maybe he had pictured it as reading all day in the hotel room: that we had a misunderstanding. But that is never the outcome of our conversations.

This is accurate. For me. Ha! So that's normal to think.

He is very fixated on "fairness" and felt I was being unfair by saying we would relax and then asking him to do things.

It feels to me like you're trying to problem solve by imposing each others' ideas on the conversation. Neither of you could be right. Neither of you could be wrong.

When he was more regulated later he admitted that he felt uncomfortable swimming and doing those sort of activities. I personally suspected that was true but also that he was just plain uncomfortable spending time in close proximity with us. He has lived alone most his life. He is in his 50s. But he is not able to really "own" those feelings, or stay in that place.

This paragraph is revealing about his past and your relationship. But let's focus on what you can do about communication, not his past.

It feels to me that you are both highly sensitive to a lot of issues. Current and previous. For him, it comes across in your examples. I get that you are sensitive based on what you've talked about for yourself so far.

You both have a lot of things you haven't spoken to each other about. You both have differing views on communication which makes things difficult.

You gave two examples from the holiday when his emotions flared: "I would like him to join in an activity or two.", "I made an offhand mention of the city where that holiday had occurred."

Based on these examples, specifically the sensitivity and triggering, it looks like there is a good opportunity for you to work on communication. Communicating both to yourself and in your relationship.

For you, what can we do on our own to manage ourselves when we are feeling sensitive? How often do we need to do this? What happens if there is recurring stimuli?

For your relationship, what do you do when a BP triggers? What can you absolutely not do when the BP has been triggered? What happens if you do those things you're not supposed to do?

I reiterate that dealing with an easily triggered partner can be difficult. It doesn't leave much time to work on ourselves, which is what we often need.

[HurtinNW]

Thank you for sharing HurtinNW.

For your relationship, what do you do when a BP triggers? What can you absolutely not do when the BP has been triggered? What happens if you do those things you're not supposed to do?

I definitely often react in a sensitive and reactive way. I get flooded. In couples therapy a counselor once pointed out to him he bares his teeth when angry. He physically puffs up, yells, etc. I think his physical and verbal manifestations of anger really trigger me. My body reacts with fear. There have been times I have cried and had a panic attack. Sometimes I start feeling dissociative, foggy. Even when I have control over my emotional response I feel extremely distraught and depressed for days following his explosions. Which is about the time another one occurs... .and endless cycle between the two of us that is profoundly saddening. 

When I do become flooded and react with crying he reacts even worse. I think his shame is ignited when I cry or get scared. This causes him to lash out even more, accusing me of being crazy, and so forth.

It is definitely a very unhealthy cycle and one repeated attempts at therapy has not changed. I can see his side of it. In his mind he is reacting with justified anger to whatever the problem is. He feels pushed to the anger. Then when he reacts he feels my response is over the top and an attempt to blame him. He often claims I am "maligning him."

I am realizing I am unable to be the emotional leader in this relationship. I do not have the ability and honestly I don't want to have to do that. I have kids and at this point the relationship has crossed the line into impacting them. They shouldn't have to witness a man raging at their mother, and they shouldn't have to see their mother obviously experiencing pain and discomfort. Even if I could be the emotional leader here I don't want to put my kids through that.

Does that answer the question or make sense? I do want to be accountable for my reactions and feelings. Another person might respond to his rages by being calm and non-reactive. I just don't think I can do that.

[doubleAries]

Sighhhh... .

I am brought, once again, to this: I have spent years and years intellectually picking apart every nuance, every twitch, every memory, every insight (mostly about "him", but some about myself). I have re-lived all the anxiety, panic attacks, fear, terror, and outrage through various proxies. Instead of just experiencing the emotions that were too overwhelming and forbidden when I was a child. And attaching them to the correct situations, instead of the proxy situations.

All the intellectual examination on the planet isn't going to shortcut the necessity of that process.

[DearBFF]

 , HurtinNW!

I am so sorry that your boyfriend has made you feel this way, doubting yourself.  It's as if they pull the wool over our eyes and only allow us to see things they way they see them sometimes.  That can be very hard since that is not based in our reality or our truth, but instead in their disordered thoughts and the assumptions they make about things.  It must be especially difficult since it is a place that you have been before with your mother.

"you are crazy" or "you are deranged"

Projection in my opinion... .plus it's like two species trying to have a conversation.  In a lot of ways a person with BPD and a person without BPD converse in entirely different ways.  They hold strong to their beliefs, yet a lot of others discuss things and try to truly understand the other person.  They feel they must be so right, the only conclusion they can draw is that everyone else is wrong.  Since they can't understand us (even though it is hard for us to begin to understand them as well) we must be the crazy ones.  You must remember that this is about him, not you, just it was about your mother, not you.  When a weakness is found it is exploited and I feel this is what he has done.  If that got a reaction out of you in the past, he will use it over and over.

"you suck all the energy out of the room" and "you are too needy"

Needy... .I just got this one from BFF last week and honestly I had a bit of a giggle out of it.  How can I need someone who cannot BE there for me?  She isn't there for me to be needy with so that's just ridiculous, but she doesn't get that.  Also, the behaviors she would point out that back up this belief of hers are actually occurring due to something she said.  Yet, once they have decided it seems nothing we say matters.

I know that for a person with BPD sometimes being in a room alone with their own emotions can be overwhelming, so when they push our buttons and then we are emotionally triggered they don't know what to do with us.  It's as if they want to lock us in a box and forget we exist.  However, the second they NEED us they bust that box back open and smother us in compliments so we forget their hurtful words.  I truly thing it can feel like this to them because their feelings and emotions are so changeable.  If they ask us to be there all the time for instance and we are ok doing so for instance, but then they decide that is smothering them and change their minds, somehow we are to blame.  It's like they cannot be responsible for their change in desires because they can barely communicate them to themselves let alone another person.

Yet again though... .it's about them, not you as a person.  Remember it makes sense to him, but as an outsider no it's not you.  He probably feels smothered in a room by himself, so just because you walk in does not mean it's your fault he feels that way.

"your mother was right" and "no one will ever love you."

Just keep reminding yourself that he was not worthy of your at this point in his life.  So someone who comes from that place of feeling less than is going to take shots at anyone they deem higher just to make themselves feel better.  This phrase in particular makes me wonder if he may have a touch of Narcissism to him as well.  This seems very cruel/harsh like something a witch mother with BPD would say.  Generally, I see people with BPD say hurtful things, but it's more distorted reality.  So while they say things that hurt our feelings, even a lot sometimes, I wouldn't say they are generally downright cruel (except in the witch mother's case).  Just my thoughts... . 

"maligning him," accuses me of "chewing him out," "attacking him," and other ways of being a mean person

I think this is again projection.  It is something he does in his behavior towards others, but then he turns it around and labels everyone else as guilty of it not himself.  He cannot see it.  There cannot be anything wrong with him, so it must be everyone else.  When my BFF had painted me black this last time she went to her psychiatrist and said who knows what.  She called me as she left the appointment to inform me that he said she needed to cut all ties because our relationship is unhealthy and I am a horrible person. 

Yep... .fact check, um no.    Lol... yes I have to laugh about it now, because in some strange twist of fate I ended up seeing the therapist in the office next to her psychiatrist and she says I couldn't be anything more opposite than that.  I am a great friend who accepts BFF, including her faults, and even though she can be very hard to love sometimes, I still love her unconditionally. 

I hope you have good people in your corner, that recognize you are not what he says.  Honest, caring, kind people will see right through stuff like that in an instant.  Plus, if he talks about you that way, most of them will realize he may talk like them about that one day too, and they will steer clear and not believe a word he says.

Take care 

I hope I have said something helpful in some way.

[HurtinNW]

Sighhhh... .

I am brought, once again, to this: I have spent years and years intellectually picking apart every nuance, every twitch, every memory, every insight (mostly about "him", but some about myself). I have re-lived all the anxiety, panic attacks, fear, terror, and outrage through various proxies. Instead of just experiencing the emotions that were too overwhelming and forbidden when I was a child. And attaching them to the correct situations, instead of the proxy situations.

All the intellectual examination on the planet isn't going to shortcut the necessity of that process.

DoubleAries, are you suggesting my boyfriend's behavior wasn't that bad, but I am making it by proxy? I'm not clear on what you mean. It seems to me his behavior could be unacceptable AND it has triggered the same feelings I had when treated that way by mother.

[HurtinNW]

DearBFF:

You have said a lot helpful. I've long thought my boyfriend is BPD/NPD or something with that constellation of issues. A therapist once said he was NPD. His father is a complete narcissist, without any conscience development at all. His mother was a martyr figure who made him her favorite and, I believe, engaged in a lot of emotional incest with him. In fact he never called her mom. He always called her by her first name, and called himself "Sally's boy." (not her real name) His siblings found the whole thing very disturbing.

I believe he has been deliberately cruel. One example is early in the relationship I shared my mother's abuse of me. I had never told anyone outside of therapy how my mother used to tell me no one would love me. My mother was capable of outrageous cruelty. Later when boyfriend got mad he would deliberately bring this up and use it to wound me: "Your mother was right," and so forth.

I do think boyfriend has engaged in a lot of projecting his fears about himself on me, as well as playing out his family dynamics. Apparently his father would rage at his mother, or else treat her with imperious coldness, both are tactics he engages in. I am sure he had no other role model.

I also think this is truly his reality. He hears things as attacks. His sense of self is incredibly fragile. I think underneath his mask is a deeply frightened, scared little boy. I have a lot of compassion for him, and yes, I do love him.

But I can't fix him.

[DearBFF]

But I can't fix him.

No, we can't... .as much as we'd like to try, it is only banging our heads against a wall. 

So if he is not a true NPD, he at least, learned the tendencies from his father.  His mother sounds like she may have been a waif mother and therefore needed him to protect her from the father.  Yes, that relationship does sound a bit odd.  It is interesting to that the siblings agree, as I would think they would somehow be mixed up in the whole BPD/NPD mess.

It's interesting that you have mentioned you believe underneath it all he is a scared little boy.  I have described my best friend as a scared little girl inside and even had discussions at times where it was like she was almost multiple people.  I found this video on youtube around that time and it described what I had seen during an interaction with my friend perfectly.  It was almost like split personalities, but they were all enmeshed and it was as if different ones protected each other.  If you get to watch the video you may see what I mean, but from what you have said I doubt your ex ever showed you his little boy much.

https://youtu.be/Do6owMR1hSY

[doubleAries]

HurtinNW (quote) "DoubleAries, are you suggesting my boyfriend's behavior wasn't that bad, but I am making it by proxy? I'm not clear on what you mean. It seems to me his behavior could be unacceptable AND it has triggered the same feelings I had when treated that way by mother."

No, that is definitely not what I am suggesting. I'm saying instead of dealing head on with the wretched feelings from childhood that we have numbed ourselves to for protection, yet also cannot keep contained, we find a "proxy" person to help us re-enact those feelings. We can't access the feelings on our own, so we find someone to trigger them for us. But then we don't look at the source of the feelings. We attach them to the current "proxy". We think we have "overcome" those feelings, by being outraged at the person who is treating us that way now, when we couldn't be outraged as children.

Outrage over what happened to you as a child is a first step. That's an outward reaction. So what about the inner reaction?

You say your BF's behavior "could" be unacceptable. From the outside, it's incredibly obviously unacceptable. So why do you tolerate it? Why do you love someone who treats you this way? Perhaps you were taught to?

[HurtinNW]

But I can't fix him.

No, we can't... .as much as we'd like to try, it is only banging our heads against a wall. 

So if he is not a true NPD, he at least, learned the tendencies from his father.  His mother sounds like she may have been a waif mother and therefore needed him to protect her from the father.  Yes, that relationship does sound a bit odd.  It is interesting to that the siblings agree, as I would think they would somehow be mixed up in the whole BPD/NPD mess.

It's interesting that you have mentioned you believe underneath it all he is a scared little boy.  I have described my best friend as a scared little girl inside and even had discussions at times where it was like she was almost multiple people.  I found this video on youtube around that time and it described what I had seen during an interaction with my friend perfectly.  It was almost like split personalities, but they were all enmeshed and it was as if different ones protected each other.  If you get to watch the video you may see what I mean, but from what you have said I doubt your ex ever showed you his little boy much.

https://youtu.be/Do6owMR1hSY

Thank you. I just watched the video, it was super helpful in understanding the rapid changes in his affect. This is very much how he acts: one moment detached and cold, the next angry.

Early in the relationship he did show me his little boy. He has a photo on his bedroom wall he kept making a point of showing me. It is a little boy hiding in a wagon. He would say this is how he felt his whole life: like that scared little boy in the wagon. I responded to this, and tried to comfort and "see" him. But I think that really scared him. It is only guesswork on my part, but I think he got caught in the conflict of being terrified by the one thing he wanted: love.

It is also hard for me to sort out because there were many, many times he used the little boy act in what seemed like a fake way. He does it a lot in public. So it is also part of his mask.

His family is interesting. He is one of six. The oldest committed suicide. Two of his sisters are very mentally ill and basically non-functioning. They are in mental health placements. Both demonstrate as personality disordered. Then he has two siblings that are relatively high functioning. Interestingly they are twins, and both say their bond to each other was what saved them. They also left home early. My boyfriend was the youngest and most grew up without siblings, with his waif mother who smothered him as a sort of faux husband and his cold, distant father... .a man who once disappeared for a year and no one knew where he was. I have realized that boyfriend never experienced what a real relationship looks like, with the give and take, the intimacy.

What I am realizing is how similar this is to my family. I never got that before. My mother was BPD, only not much a waif, thought he played the victim. She was more a witch. My father I barely know. He was a very cold man who just walked out on us, and then did some pretty unbelievable stuff later. But the basic dynamic was the same. What saved me in many ways was the bond I had with my younger siblings, and my art.

[HurtinNW]

HurtinNW (quote) "DoubleAries, are you suggesting my boyfriend's behavior wasn't that bad, but I am making it by proxy? I'm not clear on what you mean. It seems to me his behavior could be unacceptable AND it has triggered the same feelings I had when treated that way by mother."

No, that is definitely not what I am suggesting. I'm saying instead of dealing head on with the wretched feelings from childhood that we have numbed ourselves to for protection, yet also cannot keep contained, we find a "proxy" person to help us re-enact those feelings. We can't access the feelings on our own, so we find someone to trigger them for us. But then we don't look at the source of the feelings. We attach them to the current "proxy". We think we have "overcome" those feelings, by being outraged at the person who is treating us that way now, when we couldn't be outraged as children.

Outrage over what happened to you as a child is a first step. That's an outward reaction. So what about the inner reaction?

You say your BF's behavior "could" be unacceptable. From the outside, it's incredibly obviously unacceptable. So why do you tolerate it? Why do you love someone who treats you this way? Perhaps you were taught to?

Yes. I wasn't just taught. I believe all children love their mothers. It is our wiring. I loved my mother and still do and always will. If I could make that love go away I would.

My mother is dead now and interestingly, died right before I starting dating boyfriend. My family blames me for her death. I never had any healing with her.

I am outraged by what happened to me as a child. It wasn't right. Someone should have saved me.

See now, you made me cry. It's a good thing. You are absolutely right. I get caught up in focusing on him as the source of my pain. My pain started with my mother and the horrible hurt she caused me. Part of me hates her, and yet... .the love remains.

I put up with his behavior because part of me thinks it is my fault. After all, these things keep happening to me. Now I know that isn't rational, but it is one emotional reason I put up with it. I also feel that no one will accept me, that it is part of the "bargain."

I think sexual abuse is an unique thing because it comes with both terrible harm and shame and yet can feel good. When your own mother puts you in that place it is very hard to overcome. The guilt, terror, and shame can be overwhelming, and if you fight back and report and are punished for it... .that is just completely scalding.

[doubleAries]

yes, I agree. sexual abuse adds an entirely different dimension to the whole thing.

My mother called me a liar when I told her about the sexual abuse. Then she told others that that I was a liar and that they needed to be careful around me or I'd start falsely accusing them too. I internalized all of this. I can go over her endless list of hurtful horrible words, behaviors, and actions until the cows come home. But still have to eventually come to the place inside me that is hurt. Not just what she did, or BF did--the me that is seriously hurt.

I have insisted that I still love my ex. In truth, now that I have separated him from the childhood pain (and am not terrified of him abandoning me) I have to say I don't love him. He treated me like dirt! I have empathy though--he has a serious mental illness diagnosis and his life is pretty out of control. I care somewhat about him--but I care more about myself and what I am and am not willing to tolerate.

I am outraged at the horrible things my mother and father did to me, and all the bystanders who did NOTHING to stop it (making me believe even more that I must have deserved it). But I am also deeply sorry for the kid--me--who endured this. And THAT part is where the healing starts coming in.

the pain is inside. not outside. We deal with the pain--allow it, because it's appropriate and legitimate. We heal it. And we then stop gravitating towards others who will add to that pile of pain.

[HurtinNW]

yes, I agree. sexual abuse adds an entirely different dimension to the whole thing.

My mother called me a liar when I told her about the sexual abuse. Then she told others that that I was a liar and that they needed to be careful around me or I'd start falsely accusing them too. I internalized all of this. I can go over her endless list of hurtful horrible words, behaviors, and actions until the cows come home. But still have to eventually come to the place inside me that is hurt. Not just what she did, or BF did--the me that is seriously hurt.

I have insisted that I still love my ex. In truth, now that I have separated him from the childhood pain (and am not terrified of him abandoning me) I have to say I don't love him. He treated me like dirt! I have empathy though--he has a serious mental illness diagnosis and his life is pretty out of control. I care somewhat about him--but I care more about myself and what I am and am not willing to tolerate.

I am outraged at the horrible things my mother and father did to me, and all the bystanders who did NOTHING to stop it (making me believe even more that I must have deserved it). But I am also deeply sorry for the kid--me--who endured this. And THAT part is where the healing starts coming in.

the pain is inside. not outside. We deal with the pain--allow it, because it's appropriate and legitimate. We heal it. And we then stop gravitating towards others who will add to that pile of pain.

In a nutshell what I need to do. But here is a question: for the first six months or so my boyfriend was as sweet as pie. No abuse, no cruelty, no rages. I can vividly remember the first time he blew up over something, and the devaluing started, because I was flooded and confused and questioning myself and my reality. But until that point I didn't have signs. So how could I have gravitated towards him? Maybe there were signs and I didn't recognize them?

My mother always accused me of lying. My whole family does. It is totally crazy making. My stepfather and father of my siblings is a registered predatory sex offender. It is indisputable, anyone can look it up. Yet my family insists I am a liar. There is endless circular logic: if confronted with the evidence they will change the subject and say I embellish, that it wasn't my mother's fault, that I didn't say anything when it was happening (actually I did, but she refused to listen). The big claim is I am being mean to my mother by saying anything at all, that "it happened a long time ago" and so on... .just a tiny example of a lot of hurts, as you put it.

That is an interesting point about separating and not loving anymore. I had a longterm ex of 15 years and while I care for him I do not love him. So I know it can happen. But the idea of separating my self from my boyfriend is much more challenging, because of the way he has triggered all these hurts.

Until recently I had a hard time feeling sorry for my child self. She felt disgusting and dirty and worthless. Now I am starting to feel sad for her. I wish I could go back in time and save her.

[doubleAries]

Are you sure that perhaps in the throes of a new love you didn't perhaps "overlook" warning signs? I've done that.

And I have spent countless hours analyzing whether the cruel things said about me had a grain of truth or not, and if so, how big of a grain, etc. Which is still trying to be better and gooder so someone will love me. Trying to root out the fatal flaw in myself that makes me unlovable. And defending myself against the things that I decided had no grains of truth at all (giving them legitimacy in the process).

And yes, we do gravitate. We think we have overcome our last mistake, by choosing someone different than the last one. Someone who uses other methods to belittle us than the last guy did. See? All different now!   Some of the stuff at first doesn't trigger me, so I feel safe. Then the first time I am triggered, I am now on guard. I see it everywhere, because I am drowning, once again, in my unresolved pain (that I am now attaching to someone else)

At this point, I don't avoid my ex because he triggers me--I avoid him because he's a jerk and I don't want to be treated like that. Once I own the things that get "triggered" and deal with them instead of blaming BF and slamming the lid back on the box of hurt, they aren't triggers anymore.

I have literally had to remind myself 100 times in a day, when my stomach hurts from the fear of never seeing the ex again, that that fear is isn't really about him, and gently push myself back towards what it's really about. Because I am, in fact, explaining it to a child. A scared alone child--who I have also deserted. I know what you mean about the self loathing for the child self. Weird, isn't it? that we end up abandoning ourselves too.

And now you CAN go back and save her! Not back in time, but you can tell her that! Tell her that if time travel ever becomes possible, you will go back in time and put a stop to the abuse. Tell her that you'll call 911 and social services, that you'll grab their arms and pin them behind their backs the second they try to strike her. That you'll use a muffle or gag to prevent them from screaming at her, or lying about her, or even mumbling their criticisms.  That you'll put paper bags over their heads so they can't frown or glare at her. That you'll send them to bed with no dinner or dessert. Tell her that you will do anything she wants you to, to protect her.  And eventually, start saying "me" instead of "her".

I white knuckled my way past contacting the ex this way--by over and over and over reminding myself (the little scared child) that it wasn't about him. And that I was protecting her from more abuse by stopping her from begging her current abuser for more abuse. I explained, over and over and over, to her that she deserved better. That I wasn't abandoning her any longer.

[gotbushels]

These last few days, you reminded me of something HurtinNW. "In a nutshell what I need to do. " This will help you in your quest.

It's called the Identified Patient or 'symptom bearer'.

Your story applies here because I saw someone called a liar when she claimed she was sexually abused—different family members took it as truth, others as lies. Similarly, two people told me they were simply afraid of telling family members they had been sexually assaulted.

It's empowering because it reveals that people who we seem to automatically love and trust on a family basis—"They are 'most' like us"—are in truth obstructed from processing big issues.

Yet it implies you may not have the allies you thought you had—the cost is higher loneliness. But the potential rewards are much greater than that feeling. From there, the individual may choose more effective action instead of being caught in a prolonged counterproductive cycle.

"My mother called me a liar"... ."and all the bystanders who did NOTHING to stop it"... .This tells us they did what they did because they were weak. Not because they hated you—not because they didn't love you—not because it was all your fault. Be your own woman. Here is the concept:

So key are family and community to survival that nature rewards close, comfortable connections with body chemicals that feel good and punishes stress and rupture with body chemicals that feel bad. Family members who fear experiencing the ever-growing pain that is seeping into their contained of connection and disconnection may become very adept at colluding to avoid more pain from erupting and "rocking the boat." Those in the system who have the clarity or courage to act as whistle blowers, who attempt to reveal the truth of the family pathology, may be perceived by the family, which is steeped in denial, as in some way problematic. Naming the dysfunctional behaviour becomes the sin, not the dysfunctional behavior itself. These members may be cut off, humiliated, or even hated if they get too close to the truth, though much of this may be unconscious. Simply bringing up the family''s problems causes other family members, who cannot and will not see their own pathology, to want to kill the messenger. Again, the message—the truth—threatens their survival as a system.

That's from Emotional Sobriety by Tian Dayton. It looks like a grandma book but it's excellent.

It is concisely put in two pages, page 56 and 57:

https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=jmmhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=tian+dayton+symptom+bearer&source=bl&ots=oOHMKOPOFO&sig=drmha_TU8CxJ11GKJhC19EojRgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU2sXP0MbLAhUTHY4KHTu0AnkQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=tian%20dayton%20symptom%20bearer&f=false

Please don't take this as closet-therapy. I'd encourage you to look at it positively ("this tells me a lot" instead of negatively ("oh dear I am the victim". When I've shared it, I found that the receiver's receipt depends on their disposition. It could change your life.

[doubleAries]

good quote, gotbushels!

It's true too--and obvious with distance. I tried to shine a light on the dysfunction in my family, and they gaslighted me horrendously for it. And correct, the shining light becomes the evil that must be banished, not the dysfunction itself.