Do I think he believes he is being hurtful to me?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

No. Yesterday I said he apologized to me. Today he is being harder to me then I've ever seen him be before, in fact he's treating me the same way my ex husband treats me and that's scary to me. He even triangulated my daughter into it, texting her this morning that "your mother has really hurt me" so this afternoon she asked me if he and him were going to make up. There's nothing to make up. He claims something's been going on the last 48 hours and now he's become a real mean person. He's not even the man I fell in love with. Nothing has been going on the last 48 hours except for me trying not to engage with him when he's being hurtful with me.

So no, I don't think he believes he's being hurtful to me.

So now what?

[unicorn2014]

No. Yesterday I said he apologized to me. Today he is being harder to me then I've ever seen him be before, in fact he's treating me the same way my ex husband treats me and that's scary to me. He even triangulated my daughter into it, texting her this morning that "your mother has really hurt me" so this afternoon she asked me if he and him were going to make up. There's nothing to make up. He claims something's been going on the last 48 hours and now he's become a real mean person. He's not even the man I fell in love with. Nothing has been going on the last 48 hours except for me trying not to engage with him when he's being hurtful with me.

So no, I don't think he believes he's being hurtful to me.

So now what?

[Daniell85]

What was he doing today that he was harder on you?

It's possible that since you are trying stay composed, he is uncomfortable with that and is trying get a rise out of you.

[unicorn2014]

What was he doing today that he was harder on you?

It's possible that since you are trying stay composed, he is uncomfortable with that and is trying get a rise out of you.

He was being hard towards me and telling me what to do and demanding an apology. I told him I was sorry for asking him about his divorce as I saw that brought a whole cascade of events. I told him when he acted hard towards me he pushed me away and forced me to start preparing to leave the relationship. I started reading the detachment board and got to the withdrawal stage of the five stages of abandonment. He kept looking for reassurance that I loved him and I said to him the best thing I can say to you is I'm waiting for you to divorce and relocate for 4 years. Today I was also able to tell him at the end of the conversation that I can not discuss our romantic relationship until he was divorced and that felt good. He kept telling me we're in a romantic relationship and told him our romantic relationship is on hold until he's divorced, we're in an intimate friendship. I said I'm not seeing anyone else. That to me felt like a good, clean boundary that dealt with my issue from the other night. So that was a win after a day of losing. Apparently there's been another glitch in his divorce process. I told him it was incumbent upon him to tell me those things, I wasn't going to ask him, and if there was something that was affecting him emotionally it was up to him to tell me about it.

[HurtinNW]

No. Yesterday I said he apologized to me. Today he is being harder to me then I've ever seen him be before, in fact he's treating me the same way my ex husband treats me and that's scary to me. He even triangulated my daughter into it, texting her this morning that "your mother has really hurt me" so this afternoon she asked me if he and him were going to make up. There's nothing to make up. He claims something's been going on the last 48 hours and now he's become a real mean person. He's not even the man I fell in love with. Nothing has been going on the last 48 hours except for me trying not to engage with him when he's being hurtful with me.

So no, I don't think he believes he's being hurtful to me.

So now what?

What I highlighted in bold above will be a thousand times worse once you are living together. Just food for thought if you truly want this man to divorce his wife and move in with you and your daughter.

My BPD mother did stuff like this all the time, triangulating her children against each other and passing boyfriends into the mix. It was profoundly damaging.

[formflier]

 

I thought you made it clear the daughter was off limits?

Stepping away for a week or two is a good starting point.

This is emotionally damaging for you and your daughter to be involved in.

If you can't think of yourself, please think of her.

FF

[unicorn2014]

I thought you made it clear the daughter was off limits?

Stepping away for a week or two is a good starting point.

This is emotionally damaging for you and your daughter to be involved in.

If you can't think of yourself, please think of her.

FF

I decided today that I was not going to talk to him about my daughter, however I had no idea he was going to triangulate her into our relationship and I told him that was inappropriate. However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct. So I'm going to chalk this one up as a loss and move forward.

[unicorn2014]

No. Yesterday I said he apologized to me. Today he is being harder to me then I've ever seen him be before, in fact he's treating me the same way my ex husband treats me and that's scary to me. He even triangulated my daughter into it, texting her this morning that "your mother has really hurt me" so this afternoon she asked me if he and him were going to make up. There's nothing to make up. He claims something's been going on the last 48 hours and now he's become a real mean person. He's not even the man I fell in love with. Nothing has been going on the last 48 hours except for me trying not to engage with him when he's being hurtful with me.

So no, I don't think he believes he's being hurtful to me.

So now what?

What I highlighted in bold above will be a thousand times worse once you are living together. Just food for thought if you truly want this man to divorce his wife and move in with you and your daughter.

My BPD mother did stuff like this all the time, triangulating her children against each other and passing boyfriends into the mix. It was profoundly damaging.

He will never move in with me and my daughter. I'm sorry you suffered so as a child. I've heard stories like that from my male friends.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am unclear where you are at with the tools and what you are working on.

What direction are you choosing in your path to healing?

[HurtinNW]

I thought you made it clear the daughter was off limits?

Stepping away for a week or two is a good starting point.

This is emotionally damaging for you and your daughter to be involved in.

If you can't think of yourself, please think of her.

FF

I decided today that I was not going to talk to him about my daughter, however I had no idea he was going to triangulate her into our relationship and I told him that was inappropriate. However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct. So I'm going to chalk this one up as a loss and move forward.

Him sending her a text message to tell her that her mother was hurting him was completely inappropriate. It is not your daughter's job to come to his defense. She should not be asked to take sides against her mother.  

I am confused what you want to get out of this relationship. You want him to divorce. Why? If the plan isn't for you two to be together then why does it matter if he divorces? What do you want out of this relationship?

[Sunfl0wer]

However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct.

Your daughter being brought in the middle of adult conflict is inappropriate. Her defending him, NOT ok!

Wikipedia:

Covert incest (also known as emotional incest) is a style of parenting in which a parent looks to their child for the emotional support that would be normally provided by another adult.

No, the ends does not justify the means.

[HurtinNW]

However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct.

Your daughter being brought in the middle of adult conflict is inappropriate. Her defending him, NOT ok!

Wikipedia:

Covert incest (also known as emotional incest) is a style of parenting in which a parent looks to their child for the emotional support that would be normally provided by another adult.

Sunflower, I never realized before that what my mother did with my brothers against me was covert incest. It is a perfect description. Their job was to rally to her defense against meanie me. It wasn't just hurtful to me. It really messed with my brothers. To this day they are very immature, damaged men.

Unicorn, please think through YOUR message to your daughter by accepting this. She loses the sanctity of childhood to be embroiled in the adult conflicts of her mother's relationship, expected to take sides. She is being indoctrinated into the triangle. By condoning this you are sending a message it is okay. It is not okay.

This man isn't living with you, and you say that won't happen. He isn't even a physical presence in her life. He's a stranger her mom talks to on the internet. I think this is a violation of her boundaries. 

[unicorn2014]

I am unclear where you are at with the tools and what you are working on.

What direction are you choosing in your path to healing?

I am starting to look at detaching. I had a slip today, I asked him about his divorce, that created a problem. Tomorrow's a new day. I apologized for my mistake. I'm trying not to talk to him about my daughter.

[unicorn2014]

I thought you made it clear the daughter was off limits?

Stepping away for a week or two is a good starting point.

This is emotionally damaging for you and your daughter to be involved in.

If you can't think of yourself, please think of her.

FF

I decided today that I was not going to talk to him about my daughter, however I had no idea he was going to triangulate her into our relationship and I told him that was inappropriate. However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct. So I'm going to chalk this one up as a loss and move forward.

Him sending her a text message to tell her that her mother was hurting him was completely inappropriate. It is not your daughter's job to come to his defense. She should not be asked to take sides against her mother. 

She wasn't asked to take sides.

I am confused what you want to get out of this relationship. You want him to divorce. Why? If the plan isn't for you two to be together then why does it matter if he divorces? What do you want out of this relationship?

The plan is for us to be together not for him to move in to my 2BDR apt with me and my daughter.

[unicorn2014]

However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct.

Your daughter being brought in the middle of adult conflict is inappropriate. Her defending him, NOT ok!

Wikipedia:

Covert incest (also known as emotional incest) is a style of parenting in which a parent looks to their child for the emotional support that would be normally provided by another adult.

No, the ends does not justify the means.

I'm not saying what he did was right and I told him as much, more then once.

[unicorn2014]

However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct.

Your daughter being brought in the middle of adult conflict is inappropriate. Her defending him, NOT ok!

Wikipedia:

Covert incest (also known as emotional incest) is a style of parenting in which a parent looks to their child for the emotional support that would be normally provided by another adult.

Sunflower, I never realized before that what my mother did with my brothers against me was covert incest. It is a perfect description. Their job was to rally to her defense against meanie me. It wasn't just hurtful to me. It really messed with my brothers. To this day they are very immature, damaged men.

Unicorn, please think through YOUR message to your daughter by accepting this. She loses the sanctity of childhood to be embroiled in the adult conflicts of her mother's relationship, expected to take sides. She is being indoctrinated into the triangle. By condoning this you are sending a message it is okay. It is not okay.

This man isn't living with you, and you say that won't happen. He isn't even a physical presence in her life. He's a stranger her mom talks to on the internet. I think this is a violation of her boundaries. 

No, he's not a stranger, he's stayed with us, he talks to us on the phone. He lives in another state. She's not expected to take sides. My daughter is 15, she's not a child, if she didn't want to talk to him she could tell me or him. I told him what he did was inappropriate. That's never happened before and it won't happen again.

----

[Sunfl0wer]

No, he's not a stranger, he's stayed with us, he talks to us on the phone. He lives in another state. She's not expected to take sides. My daughter is 15, she's not a child, if she didn't want to talk to him she could tell me or him. I told him what he did was inappropriate. That's never happened before and it won't happen again.

I am going to be direct here:

I recall another thread of yours where a staff member stated that it is not ok to allow your daughter to be aware or involved in your relationship issues... .something like that.  I cannot recall exactly, however, I do recall your daughter expressing fear over you two splitting and her speaking to you or him about it.  She was made aware by one of you... .or exposed via electronic device.

You are responsible for either protecting your daughter from adult matters or exposing her to them. 

Consider that there are measures that you can take for your daughter's protection.

[HurtinNW]

However if my conscience is not calibrated correctly then it was a good thing he did talk to her as she actually spoke up in his defense and she was correct.

Your daughter being brought in the middle of adult conflict is inappropriate. Her defending him, NOT ok!

Wikipedia:

Covert incest (also known as emotional incest) is a style of parenting in which a parent looks to their child for the emotional support that would be normally provided by another adult.

Sunflower, I never realized before that what my mother did with my brothers against me was covert incest. It is a perfect description. Their job was to rally to her defense against meanie me. It wasn't just hurtful to me. It really messed with my brothers. To this day they are very immature, damaged men.

Unicorn, please think through YOUR message to your daughter by accepting this. She loses the sanctity of childhood to be embroiled in the adult conflicts of her mother's relationship, expected to take sides. She is being indoctrinated into the triangle. By condoning this you are sending a message it is okay. It is not okay.

This man isn't living with you, and you say that won't happen. He isn't even a physical presence in her life. He's a stranger her mom talks to on the internet. I think this is a violation of her boundaries. 

No, he's not a stranger, he's stayed with us, he talks to us on the phone. He lives in another state. She's not expected to take sides. My daughter is 15, she's not a child, if she didn't want to talk to him she could tell me or him. I told him what he did was inappropriate. That's never happened before and it won't happen again.

----

It shouldn't be her responsibility to tell him not to talk to her when he is being inappropriate. That is your responsibility. You are making her responsible for something that is not her responsibility. You are the gate keeper.

I have also heard you say he won't be visiting and he won't be living with you. What does that leave for a relationship? Text messages?

I am not saying this to be hard. I am saying this as another single mom. And as a child of a BPD who got put through the ringer with this sort of stuff. I see you all over the map to either castigate or defend him. What do you want?

How do you know it won't happen again? Are you trusting his promises after you already told him you weren't communicating about your daughter... .after which he sent a text to her?

I asked before what you want from this relationship. This has been a good exercise for me, a girlfriend suggested it. Close your eyes and meditate, and imagine this real person you know. Imagine a year from now. What do see? What is possible? Ten years from now, the same thing. What is the reality?

I see you trying to create boundaries on an ever-shrinking island. Sooner or later you take off all the board pieces that don't work and what are you left with? Don't be afraid to confront despair.

[formflier]

  My daughter is 15, she's not a child,  

Unicorn,

I am very disappointed in you,     :'(

A 15 year old is a child.  A teenager is much different that a younger child, but still a child nonetheless.  They are forming their identity and beliefs that will affect them for the rest of their life.

YOU need to be the adult here  Right now you are NOT acting like one.  In the triangle of your SO, daughter and YOU, you are the only one that I know of that has a chance to be an adult.

Please step away from the r/s for a few days or week and focus on setting your priorities.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Hi everyone, can we please bring the focus back to my original question? I was asked if I think he believes he's hurting me. The short answer is no. The way he's been treating me the last few days has forced me to start reading the detaching lessons. He is attacking my character, my mind, my emotions. I can't make him stop. He's demanding an apology and demanding I repair the relationship. It's making me not want to be with him.

I appreciate your concerns about my daughter and triangulation however that's not the focus of this particular thread.

[Daniell85]

He's have an existential burst, in a really broad way. Of course he knows he's being hurtful. The upset he feels is outweighing your hurt to him. Everyone feels their own pain deeper than the pain of others, except under truly extreme circumstances.

Unicorn, one of the elephants in the center of the room that you consistently skate around is the well being of your daughter as she is being exposed to all of this. The person who is at greatest risk, and the person who is entitled to your main consideration, is your daughter.

My own opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, is that your partner is not in a position to act on behalf of anyone, most particularly your child. He is coming to her to soothe his upset. He is circumnavigating you to do it. He is absolutely triangulating your child.

Of note, when you spoke of your daughter late last summer, you said that she was a stable, healthy girl with a good mindset. As your romantic situation has deteriorated, so has she. You don't have to answer what I am saying, but your girl is not in a good place right now. She needs you more than you need your partner.

[unicorn2014]

Daniell85, my daughter has been having problems since kindergarten, way before I met him. Can we please leave her out of this thread? This thread is not about her. I have a thread on the parenting board about her if people are interested in weighing in on whether or not he is an appropriate stepparent for her. I have not given him any power over her. That is just an abstract at this point. Can we please keep the focus on the subject on hand, whether or not I think he believes he's hurting me. He has escalated . I got this email from him when I refused to allow him to support me with what is going on with my family today.

As you wish

You did not take me seriously and so now I will have to go to the next step


If you would like to communicate with me in the future you may do so at … ... .or the resurrected email address …

Two things of note: I will not be contacting you until you take this seriously, and until you you begin to repair the damage you have caused please do not contact me about anything else until you do. This is the consequence of several years of unacknowledged emotional abuse by you and it can not wait any longer to be addressed or repaired. I have been very patient with you but now you must act.

I am sry it has to be this way. It is not at all what I want... .I love you and it is very hard to watch you turn this into things about you and how you are treated when you are the one causing the damage. I really want to be with you, and I have spent the last four years planning on it, but after seeking the

advice of a mental health professional it is the only way to determine whether or not you are stable & heathy enough to be in an intimate relationship.

You have caused me and us a lot of damage by your ideas on what a relationship should be and it now time for you to stop blaming and take responsibility for the way you have treated both me and our relationship. 

Being in a relationship is a privilege, it is now time for you to start acting like you know this.

I love you very much and really would like to encourage you to repair our relationship. I have given you what it is you need to start with and that is expressing the love and feelings about me you claim to have.

I believe in you. And look fwd to you staring this journey and we will reach the end together.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to make my next post on the leaving board.

----


I also received these messages on Facebook messenger this morning.

X

I sent you a txt else where but I have no idea if you got it as it is being sent as a txt

X

Things are better between and I really feel like a fool thinking you were going to repair things... .I needed you to do something and you refused You have dismantled our relationship to the point that we have very little left. You Pulled the plug on what we built in terms of our ldr to keep it healthy until I could move.

X

Things are not better

it is still very one sided and all about you

I was foolish to think differently

###

X

Because I believed a lie and put everything into a lie I deserve all of this and there is no one but me at fault... .

###

Good morning I love you

[Sunfl0wer]

What do you see your options are at this point?

[unicorn2014]

What do you see your options are at this point?

I'm starting to read the detaching board about acknowledging what is going on. He did call me but he wants to control the communication and that's not acceptable to me. I'm not interested in asking him if I could call him. I let him know the only time I would take that kind of hard line is if I was leaving him and I am experiencing the way he is treating me as him leaving me. I requested the journey of abandonment from the library and will continue to read the lessons on the detaching board. I told him I sure he would let me know if he wanted to hear from me and in the meantime I was going to process this as him leaving me and if I had anything helpful to offer regarding this phase of our relationship I would let him know. I wasn't prepared for this so I need to deal with this.

[HurtinNW]

I highly recommend The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. I'm glad you are going to read it. It's made a huge difference for me in validating my own immense grief and pain at relationship loss. I just gave a copy to a friend going through a divorce.

[unicorn2014]

I highly recommend The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. I'm glad you are going to read it. It's made a huge difference for me in validating my own immense grief and pain at relationship loss. I just gave a copy to a friend going through a divorce.

I read it once before. I forgot to mention my other option is to read the personal inventory board. My partner backed down and said when he has a case number he's going to buy a plane ticket and I said that's fine, we'll talk about that then. I don't want him  staying with us for more then 2 weeks but if I can navigate that rapid then I do think he should come see us. Apparently me standing my ground resulted in a win.

Wow, what an existential burst.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am not sure I exactly understand... .

What are your options for proceeding with this relationship and interacting?

It sounds like you are seeing how things unfold for him vs choosing your own path.

Leaving him in charge may not be the wisest course.

What paths are before you?

[Sunfl0wer]

My partner backed down and said when he has a case number he's going to buy a plane ticket and I said that's fine, we'll talk about that then. I don't want him  staying with us for more then 2 weeks but if I can navigate that rapid then I do think he should come see us.

What I hear is:

Unicorn possibly moving a boundary

Thoughts of planning for a visit from him

What do you think the message this conveys is?

[unicorn2014]

Sunfl0wer, I have not moved a boundary. My boundary is he can not come see us again until he has a case number. I have to ask permission to have a guest more then 2 weeks . I am not going to ask permission to have him stay with us again. No boundary has changed.

That being said he is not stable right now. I told him if he wants to move forward with me he's going to have to wipe the slate clean of everything that happened before I found out his divorce hadn't been filed.

He keeps referencing a point back in 2014 when he claims I started devaluing him, when he came back from a trip to see me. I told him if he wants to move forward with me he's going to need to stop referencing that point. I told him I didn't want him bringing that up with me again until we could see a marriage counselor.

My choices right now are to leave or remain conflicted. I can not make the choice to stay until I see a case number. My position right now is not to ask him about his divorce.