Helping fellow members or enabling?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Here is link from here on mirroring:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0;all

Sunfl0wer I'm sorry but I've made a mistake!

BPD and "psych literature" usage is distinct from the usage I meant. I meant it in Randi Kreger's SWOE definition.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.msg545234#msg545234

Let's keep with the definition of "mirroring" as the way Skip defined it:

The term mirroring at BPD Family has come over the years to mean an extreme version of what Boothman talks about - basically a person with BPD becoming a chameleon.

Which is further down the page:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.msg846070#msg846070

For the purposes of Board discussion and to maintain consistency with the Board's definition, please retroactively treat what I wrote in "mirroring" as "reflecting". I meant it in the form that Kreger used in SWOE. I'll keep the quotation marks to avoid doubt:

The type of "reflecting" I often use is like this. When I talk to someone and I feel they are (1) trying to project an emotion on to me, or (2) I happen to feel like I'm 'sponging' it somehow--then "reflecting" is useful. I can use "reflecting" to 'keep the buckets' separate. I define the buckets as a representation of the bunch of emotions that each person brings to the conversation. Each person has one. I mentally 'see' the buckets in my head as the "reflecting" technique. This helps me keep emotions where they belong. You keep your fish in your bucket--and I keep mine.

HAHA for a moment there I thought I trained myself to be a pwBPD. Shock horror. Thanks Kreger :P

Sorry again for the confusion everyone!

[gotbushels]

Here is link from here on mirroring:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0;all

Sunfl0wer I'm sorry but I've made a mistake!

BPD and "psych literature" usage is distinct from the usage I meant. I meant it in Randi Kreger's SWOE definition.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.msg545234#msg545234

Let's keep with the definition of "mirroring" as the way Skip defined it:

The term mirroring at BPD Family has come over the years to mean an extreme version of what Boothman talks about - basically a person with BPD becoming a chameleon.

Which is further down the page:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.msg846070#msg846070

For the purposes of Board discussion and to maintain consistency with the Board's definition, please retroactively treat what I wrote in "mirroring" as "reflecting". I meant it in the form that Kreger used in SWOE. I'll keep the quotation marks to avoid doubt:

The type of "reflecting" I often use is like this. When I talk to someone and I feel they are (1) trying to project an emotion on to me, or (2) I happen to feel like I'm 'sponging' it somehow--then "reflecting" is useful. I can use "reflecting" to 'keep the buckets' separate. I define the buckets as a representation of the bunch of emotions that each person brings to the conversation. Each person has one. I mentally 'see' the buckets in my head as the "reflecting" technique. This helps me keep emotions where they belong. You keep your fish in your bucket--and I keep mine.

HAHA for a moment there I thought I trained myself to be a pwBPD. Shock horror. Thanks Kreger :P

Sorry again for the confusion everyone!

[Grey Kitty]

When somebody else's issues are ones that you are struggling with in some form, it is very hard to separate your own feelings from theirs and validate the other person really well. You still try to do the best you can anyhow, and sometimes decide that you are too involved to be able to validate. Perhaps you can share those feelings that were triggered in you instead, but own them as your own... .or perhaps sit that topic out... .

That said, I could probably offer some basic guidelines... .validating (without necessarily agreeing) and asking questions (with real curiosity, not assuming you know the answers, the purpose of the question is to deepen the other person's understanding of their own situation).

Validation when done well and deeply is the exact opposite of enabling, in a really beautiful way.

Enabling is taking responsibility for somebody else's feelings or issues.

Validation leaves the responsibility for those feelings and issues exactly where it belongs--with the person who has them in the first place.

And even better, it makes the person who has those feelings and issues feel safer, building the strength for them to deal with it on their own.

[Sunfl0wer]

Eeks:

Yep, that's right, don't launch into helping them... .just sit with whatever you feel, even discomfort.  If it's really intense, only do it for a few moments, that's OK to start off.  This is just for practice, in a lower intensity situation (your imagination/memory, no one is actually there). 

What comes up for you when you do that?  Try to get underneath any thoughts/worries ("... .but I don't have an identity!  now I'm useless!) to the experience of the feelings, even physical sensations.

So, I have been pondering this and feel stuck here.

I have been practicing and can now feel a difference in... .

not launching to help => pausing => imagining buckets =>observing and deciding which is my feelings of my own vs my empathy for theirs

This has been quite helpful and shifted something in my awareness.

TBH, part of where I think I am stuck is ... .

A. that my profession is in a helping field. 

I launch easily into autopilot to perform several roles, I think it may help me to 'paint my bucket' and revisit what I want my boundaries to be.  Perhaps I am defining them as I go?  Based on a case by case situation vs what I need? Not sure

B. I am having a hard time accessing feelings of discomfort.

During the pause and observation part, I am not noticing discomfort.  I am empathizing and weighing their needs to my needs and often finding that they need xyz more than it would take from me to provide xyz, and often, I don't see it would even take anything from me so why wouldn't I?

I feel a bit confused now, tbh.

[Sunfl0wer]

When somebody else's issues are ones that you are struggling with in some form, it is very hard to separate your own feelings from theirs and validate the other person really well. You still try to do the best you can anyhow, and sometimes decide that you are too involved to be able to validate. Perhaps you can share those feelings that were triggered in you instead, but own them as your own... .or perhaps sit that topic out... .

That said, I could probably offer some basic guidelines... .validating (without necessarily agreeing) and asking questions (with real curiosity, not assuming you know the answers, the purpose of the question is to deepen the other person's understanding of their own situation).

Validation when done well and deeply is the exact opposite of enabling, in a really beautiful way.

Enabling is taking responsibility for somebody else's feelings or issues.

Validation leaves the responsibility for those feelings and issues exactly where it belongs--with the person who has them in the first place.

And even better, it makes the person who has those feelings and issues feel safer, building the strength for them to deal with it on their own.

This doesn't feel always true to me and part of the reason I began this thread.

I see members offering lots and lots of validation at times, over and over again.

In the case where another member is stuck in the inability to self soothe and comes here not to resolve issues or move forward, but simply to vent about a problem again and again, redirecting, side stepping and running in circles... .

We come and validate, and validate and validate... .

IMO: There are times that we are validating and just holding someone's hand, yet, what they need is for us to let go so they can go APPLY the skill of self soothing vs simply ONLY using this as an area to vent and stay PROBLEM oriented.

I am not referring to times when a member needs to let off some steam but otherwise is receptive to change.

I feel there is the ability tho to coddle a member in an infancy stage on these boards through validation without any change ever.  And that this exists.

However, some here have already responded towards this.

My point is... .

We cannot assume we are NOT enabling, just because we are validating.

Validation can be a method of (un)intentionally enabling.

[Grey Kitty]

We cannot assume we are NOT enabling, just because we are validating.

Validation can be a method of (un)intentionally enabling.

Perhaps I'm, splitting hairs here, but I don't believe validation is ever enabling (when it is done right / properly).

But none of us here are perfect, and most of us are still learning how to validate.

A member may well be trying to validate, miss the mark a bit, and end up enabling instead of validating.

Regardless of which side of that hair the knife is sliding down... .the important issue is the same:

We are all at some risk of enabling other members and would do well to watch ourselves, be careful, and try hard to avoid doing it (any more).

[HurtinNW]

I think sometimes people say they are looking for advice when they are really looking for drama. Those are the times we can practice accepting they are not ready to change, and let them sort it out for themselves. They may not be aware of what they are doing.

We can also use this as a chance to examine our own feelings and histories. My family history was one where my mother engaged in a lot drama. Everything was about her, and she constantly cast herself as a victim of others. Everyone in her world was crazy, she was the sane one. As a child I found this dangerous, because my mother had no ability to prioritize me over her drama, which include sex offender boyfriends. As an adult I found it alienating and hurtful, because eventually it became clear that my mother would never be able to have a loving relationship with me.

If I see people doing the same (here or in real life, anywhere) I want to confront them, get them to see what they are doing. We all know that doesn't work! I also want others to confront them. This is because no one confronted my mother. But I know from my past that trying to confront people engaged in drama only feeds the drama.

I think if we get into situations where we are repeatedly arguing with someone why they are "wrong," then we inadvertently repeat the same dynamics of our dysfunctional relationships, and our efforts are essentially JADEing our own positions.

[eeks]

TBH, part of where I think I am stuck is ... .

A. that my profession is in a helping field. 

I launch easily into autopilot to perform several roles, I think it may help me to 'paint my bucket' and revisit what I want my boundaries to be.  Perhaps I am defining them as I go?  Based on a case by case situation vs what I need? Not sure

I would say that boundaries are more like a living thing that way... .especially when you are developing them for the first time (or are over-boundaried in some areas and under-boundaried in others).  You will have emotions that tell you that a boundary has been crossed or that one or more of your needs are not met.  Since my parents were not good role models for emotional awareness and self-regulation, one of my biggest challenges is spotting those brief "spikes on the graph" of emotions, like anger or desire or disappointment, that were at least partially censored when I was young.  Then from there I can decide how to act on them, but I can't use them skillfully if I'm not even aware of them and go straight into habitual responses of avoidance, shame, anxiety, etc. 

However I think some people might approach it from the opposite angle... ."it's a science until it becomes an art"... .list your values, decide from that what behaviour you will and won't accept from others... .practice till it starts to feel natural.  I would say there could be some value in that practice for you, even to go to the opposite extreme for a while and refuse to help others and see what that brings up in you!  Otherwise it may be very tempting for you to slide into old habits, like the one you mention of telling yourself "oh it won't take much effort for me to help, they really need it" etc.

B. I am having a hard time accessing feelings of discomfort.

During the pause and observation part, I am not noticing discomfort.  I am empathizing and weighing their needs to my needs and often finding that they need xyz more than it would take from me to provide xyz, and often, I don't see it would even take anything from me so why wouldn't I?

OK.  I used the word "discomfort" because you seemed to be referring to feeling that way.  My intention was to invite you to stay present with whatever feelings and sensations come up when you pause before launching into helping. 

What you are saying here sounds similar to a sort of rationalization I have engaged in when it comes to helping others, "it wouldn't take much effort from me".  However, I find that if I do enough of that, it does indeed take something from me and I resent the other person if I happen to ask for their help in return once in a while and they respond dismissively. 

I would say that sometimes that kind of generosity is a positive thing.  However, because you seemed to switch into thinking/rationalization, let's try another level of "rewind and slow motion".  The person shows up with their needs... .expresses them directly or indirectly... .after they've done that but before you start empathizing... .what are you feeling right then?