Suggestions or advice

[Scopikaz]

Ok. I Am in no contact. Although still friends on fb And also friends with her son (16) and daughter (12).  This morning her son posted something on fb and I commented something very generic. In the past I've made comments and she's even liked some of them.

But this morning I got a text saying don't respond on his posts again. Then followed by an unfriend them.

I didn't reply so ten min later she said let me know when you did it.

Again I didn't reply so a few minutes later she said damn it. Why aren't you answering.

So a few minutes later she said that she found out some of the things I did and I could unfriend them or she would tell them and they would.

Then she said if I block her and not them she would get legal advice.

Any how I then replied I would.  And I did unfriend them. Told her I respected her wishes.

Anyhow. She never said what she supposedly knows.  The only thing I can think of is that I had talked to their step mother and that is why the ex husband refused to let her see the kids at Christmas. Because when she moved from my house she was supposed to notify them she had moved but didn't

And now she's supposed to get them next week. But he is still not letting her get them until they "go to court" supposedly. 

So. Anyhow. I don't know what prompted that this morning. and it both saddens and sickens me.

[fromheeltoheal]

You're not not communicating and you're still emotionally involved Scopi.  What's the goal?

[Turkish]

That's tough and a low blow when she's triangulating minors by proxy. Given that they are minors (and her kids), you did the right thing to protect yourself. You've blocked her too now right?

[Caley]

She sounds pretty 'p?ssed' off with you.

Your decision to implement NC is a significant change in the dynamic over which she has no control. She may very well interpret this as you asserting some control and taking back some of your power. She'll already have another primary source in place for positive attention ... now all she needs to do is wait for you to flake on your commitment to maintain NC and give her the perfect opportunity to harvest a bit of juicy negative emotional energy from you when you do ... because you always have (don't you think she knows that?).

Unfortunately, you broke NC by commenting on fb and gave her the opportunity to 'punish' you for interfering in matters that no longer concern you. Her kids are hers (in her mind) not yours ... and your relationship with them is an interference (in her mind).

You left yourself wide open and she then sought to re-establish her control by dictating you do something and then inform her of your compliance ... which you didn't do (immediately).

Then you re-engaged and she spun off into lala land using some erroneous legal threat ... to which you then complied ... and even 'respected' ... showing a weakness to be unable to remain logically/emotionally grounded. It is perfectly OK for you to comment on her kids fb if you have a relationship with them. And, should they not 'like' that you comment on their 'status posts' ... they'll get rid of you themselves. She has no dominion over that, at all. But ... you've now given her something else to batter you over the head with because you engaged in her madness.

You caved Scopi ... you keep flaking on you.

What does it matter 'why' or 'what' is going on between her, her children and her ex ... or the reasons for those difficulties? She's difficult ... Full Stop. Her ex is pretty educated to that fact and protecting two kids.

You're still giving her your attention (even though you're not physically present with her) which is a breach of your promise  to yourself to start and maintain NC. NC is the complete and utter removal of her from your life. So, what is your game? Are you NC or playing a power game yourself under the guise of NC?

You seem to be bent on shooting yourself in the foot and then feeling saddened and sick and blaming either her or some other mystical reason for it! When the reality is ... you invited her to bash you over the head again ... which, quite happily, she did. You should feel sick ... I would feel sick ... I did feel sick ... .WE HAVE ALL FELT SICK ... until we realised that we're allowing the madness to continue by not dis-engaging from it.

'Stop the bleeding ... to make things better there first needs to be a commitment to stop making things worse.' All the info you need is in the 'Lessons'.

[Nextinline]

She sounds pretty 'p?ssed' off with you.

Your decision to implement NC is a significant change in the dynamic over which she has no control. She may very well interpret this as you asserting some control and taking back some of your power. She'll already have another primary source in place for positive attention ... now all she needs to do is wait for you to flake on your commitment to maintain NC and give her the perfect opportunity to harvest a bit of juicy negative emotional energy from you when you do ... because you always have (don't you think she knows that?).

Unfortunately, you broke NC by commenting on fb and gave her the opportunity to 'punish' you for interfering in matters that no longer concern you. Her kids are hers (in her mind) not yours ... and your relationship with them is an interference (in her mind).

You left yourself wide open and she then sought to re-establish her control by dictating you do something and then inform her of your compliance ... which you didn't do (immediately).

Then you re-engaged and she spun off into lala land using some erroneous legal threat ... to which you then complied ... and even 'respected' ... showing a weakness to be unable to remain logically/emotionally grounded. It is perfectly OK for you to comment on her kids fb if you have a relationship with them. And, should they not 'like' that you comment on their 'status posts' ... they'll get rid of you themselves. She has no dominion over that, at all. But ... you've now given her something else to batter you over the head with because you engaged in her madness.

You caved Scopi ... you keep flaking on you.

What does it matter 'why' or 'what' is going on between her, her children and her ex ... or the reasons for those difficulties? She's difficult ... Full Stop. Her ex is pretty educated to that fact and protecting two kids.

You're still giving her your attention (even though you're not physically present with her) which is a breach of your promise  to yourself to start and maintain NC. NC is the complete and utter removal of her from your life. So, what is your game? Are you NC or playing a power game yourself under the guise of NC?

You seem to be bent on shooting yourself in the foot and then feeling saddened and sick and blaming either her or some other mystical reason for it! When the reality is ... you invited her to bash you over the head again ... which, quite happily, she did. You should feel sick ... I would feel sick ... I did feel sick ... .WE HAVE ALL FELT SICK ... until we realised that we're allowing the madness to continue by not dis-engaging from it.

'Stop the bleeding ... to make things better there first needs to be a commitment to stop making things worse.' All the info you need is in the 'Lessons'.

Great post!

Sorry, but this guy never listens. He has been given great and constructive advice by wise and patient people and the same patterns of behaviour are still present.

It's just like Groundhog Day

[Scopikaz]

Next inline. How many times have you ever failed in your getting over your ex?  Broken down and texted or replied or tried to go nc but failed?  And how long have you been on these boards?  How long was your r/s?  Did you go nc immediately?

[Nextinline]

Next inline. How many times have you ever failed in your getting over your ex?  Broken down and texted or replied or tried to go nc but failed?  And how long have you been on these boards?  How long was your r/s?  :)id you go nc immediately?

Twice mate. I've been here for over 12 months and my relationship was living together for 4 years and engaged to me when I discovered her having an affair with another guy. So I'm here to let people know that there is a life after being screwed over by a person with BPD but wishing and pretending for it to be different is not the way to find peace.

I read and I learn and I follow the advice that people have given me here. I don't keep putting my hand on the stove and keep burning myself.

You keep coming here looking for reasons and justifications about her behaviour.

Seems to me you want to hang onto this person and not move on from her.

In fact it might be you that is on the wrong board. Maybe you need to go to the undecided board and learn techniques to manage her and recover the situation.

You're on the leaving board mate. People here will tell you to go NC and stay NC.

And yes, I'm totally no contact and have been now for over 7 months and I will never let a person who cannot rationally process emotions define who I am.

Maybe you need to either listen to what you have been advised now for many months which is to block this person and go totally NC for your own sanity or find a different strategy that you may be able to use from the folks on the undecided board.

Because let's face the facts here mate, you do not want to let this woman go and you do not want to move on from her. So face that reality and look for a different way forward.

[C.Stein]

Because let's face the facts here mate, you do not want to let this woman go and you do not want to move on from her. So face that reality and look for a different way forward.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily true.  His rational mind knows he has to move on, his emotional mind doesn't want to.  The problem here is he is listening to his emotional mind when he should be listening to his rational one.

Scopikaz, I think you know this relationship has reached its logical end.  While I know how painful this is to accept it is nonetheless true.  Wishing things could be different and hoping through some miracle they might be different doesn't change the reality of the situation.  Holding on to this woman is destroying you and you are the only one who can stop it.

Acceptance of what happened in my relationship and who she is has likely been the most difficult thing I have had to do.  I understand how hard it is, wanting to hold onto hope that things could be different, but they won't be and all the hope in the world won't change that.  Try to find a way to accept the reality instead of holding onto the dream.

[JerryRG]

I wanted my ex to seek help so she could be happy and heal like I was beginning to in my recovery, I think I wanted her to be at peace and learn to stop lying. I thought if she were to get well she would be trustworthy. I was selfish but we have a child together and her illness and refusal to get the help she needs dooms our sons future development.

I've witnessed her abuse him in angry outbursts. So I did want her to change for her benifit so she would be someone I could tolerate and our son would be parented the way he needs. She must enjoy her life, beyond my comprihension.

She won't change even for our son. I began my recovery for my children the day my dad killed himself. I did it for them, anything I can do to improve my life will benifit my relationship with everyone around me most off my children.

I am very selfish, and a rescuer myself. I have learned we are only as sick as our secrets. ALWAYS check our motives in every important desicion we make.

Did I love her? Not sure I know what love is, I loved the fantasy of her but I also ignored her illness.

[steelwork]

Scopikaz, I would have failed over and over if I'd had a choice about it. My ex does not do social media--thank god--and blocked me on my main email and hasn't unblocked me. I already deleted his phone number, so I couldn't call him if I wanted. He moved, so I don't have his address, and that was a year ago, so his mail won't be forwarded from his old address. The only way FOR me to fail at this point would be to write to him from a secondary email that, for some reason, he hasn't blocked. That is a teeny tiny window, and if it were even a little bigger I would probably have tried to squeeze my way through it. So I get it! I do. What people are probably most frustrated about is that you seem to be unreflective about your own boundary-testing. Is one last date okay? Is trivia crack okay? Is it okay to comment on her kids' facebook posts? You get burned every. single. time. In a way I admire your dogged insistence on pushing the boundaries. But please do yourself a favor and be honest with yourself about what you are doing. And if you're going to run that experiment, please please please take note of the results you get. She's showed you again and again that she is not going to return to being the honey you loved. And after all, isn't that what you're looking for?

[HarleypsychRN]

As hard as it is (and it is VERY hard) to go NC (I finally stopped "stalking" her FB) IF you want to heal and move on... .there's no other way than NC. My BPD went NC on me first because that's who she is, how she operates... .it gives HER the power over ME.

Listen, I read some of the comments, I understand and support you healing in your own time. HOPEFULLY you have gotten into therapy with a psychologist who understands BPD. What is helping me is to learn every single thing I can about the disorder. The idealized version of her that I fell head over heels for is NOT WHO SHE IS. I fell in love with a mirage that met my needs for acceptance, that stoked the rescuer in me, that fed on my low self-esteem. NOT the real person  she is... .

For the sake of your own sanity, you have to move on... .it's ok to fail in a weak moment, just GET BACK UP, brush yourself off and keep moving forward. People here understand. I refuse to be beaten by a toxic woman who manipulated and used me for her own needs. I am worth more than that and so are you.

[AwakenedOne]

Hi Scopikaz,

The advice on this thread seems so wise. Our ex's are unfortunately no longer the persons who walked hand in hand with us at the park at the start of our relationships.  Thinking they are that person or can ever be that person again with us keeps us trying to hold on no matter what. I don't think of her as a mirage though, because a mirage isn't real. You can't touch a mirage. I think of her more like a person who pretended. I would call the love given by her a mirage though or something like artificial love. At the point that she became triggered or bored or just decided to make bad choices she reverted back to the closest thing to her normal self which basically put a disintegration countdown clock on to our marriage. It's so complex isn't it?  Seems sometimes the reason a lot of people here go back for more or continue in ways is that they haven't been stomped on to the max yet. When my wife deserted she had already stomped me enough for me to stay away from her permanently. No words were ever spoken or will be again. I'm not saying that is easy though. I am sorry you are going through pain with this. Maybe there are positives that can come from negatives though?

[Scopikaz]

I think that's exactly it. My mind says run and don't look back. My heart says I love her and want her back.  And I know because of my mind that the her I love isn't really still there if she ever really was. 

And no.  Definitely the one last everything has clearly failed. I guess like the alcoholic who thinks they can have that one last drink.  But that's the drink that causes them to go over the edge. Or the gambler who says they want that one last spin of the wheel then loses everything.

I know intuitively that she's not good the way she is.  At all.  But my heart is having trouble catching up or letting go.

I think though I'm not sure that she found out i talked to the step mother essentially of her children. And in part that's why the ex refused to let the kids come here after Christmas. And apparently why he refused to let them come this week for spring break.  I talked to the ex at the time looking for answers from someone who knows of her and her past.  But the ex then used it as a chance to exert power over her. 

Turns out when she moved out of my house she was supposed to notify the ex.  She never did. And actually I don't know that she still has yet.   And so that's why her ex won't let the kids come.  Or if she has they don't like where she's now living.  With a girl ten years younger who likes to party.

So part of me thinks she found that out.  Though if she did I don't know why she didn't just come out and say that.

Maybe my heart will catch up.

[Lonely_Astro]

I think that's exactly it. My mind says run and don't look back. My heart says I love her and want her back.  And I know because of my mind that the her I love isn't really still there if she ever really was. 

And no.  Definitely the one last everything has clearly failed. I guess like the alcoholic who thinks they can have that one last drink.  But that's the drink that causes them to go over the edge. Or the gambler who says they want that one last spin of the wheel then loses everything.

I know intuitively that she's not good the way she is.  At all.  But my heart is having trouble catching up or letting go.

I think though I'm not sure that she found out i talked to the step mother essentially of her children. And in part that's why the ex refused to let the kids come here after Christmas. And apparently why he refused to let them come this week for spring break.  I talked to the ex at the time looking for answers from someone who knows of her and her past.  But the ex then used it as a chance to exert power over her. 

Turns out when she moved out of my house she was supposed to notify the ex.  She never did. And actually I don't know that she still has yet.   And so that's why her ex won't let the kids come.  Or if she has they don't like where she's now living.  With a girl ten years younger who likes to party.

So part of me thinks she found that out.  Though if she did I don't know why she didn't just come out and say that.

Maybe my heart will catch up.

It's not a question of if you're heart will catch up, but when.  It seems so far away right now, to you, I'm sure.  The worst part is going through that tunnel known as grieving.  We all talk about our exes not being who they pretended to be.  That's hindsight.  At the time, it was all real.  Every bit of it.  J was real to me, just like yours was real to you.  It was all real... .up until it wasn't.  Was she purposely using you in the beginning?  Probably not. If she were AS/N, I'd say the opposite.  But if she's BPD, then I'll go with no.  You were the Alpha and Omega to her Scopi.  You were everything.  I know this because I was to J.  Right up until I wasn't, and THATS what's so painful to come to terms with.  I was everything until I was nothing. 

J now 'punishes' me for fully leaving.  She walks up and down the hall constantly to pass by my door, she talks loudly to my neighbor in the next office about how her and L's "awesomeness together"... .about how they'll most likely get married and have "a lot of little babies", she's even taken to going a park with L on her lunch break that is known around the office as 'my' park.  We often have the same lunch hour and she knows the probability of me being at said park.  Ironically, I introduced her to that park and we had lunch there practically everyday.  That's also where I learned and accepted the fact I could've been anyone. 

What do I mean?  I was at the park the other day when her and L came there.  I posted a thread about that.  But, she's since been back there since that posting.  My first time attempting to go back since that thread, I was running behind for lunch.  I had been out of the office, so I grabbed my lunch and headed to the park.  It's small, with only one entrance and you can see most of the park from the road.  As I approached, I noticed a truck backed into a space.  It's the same space I used to park in.  Who's truck was it?  L's.  As I drove by, I could see her and him were sitting in the truck having lunch.  It was raining off and on that day, so I guess they didn't want to walk to a covered bench in the rain... .who knows.  My point is this: it seems like J swapped me out for L.  They park in the same area we did, sit at the same bench we did.  L literally walks in the same footsteps with her that I did this time last year.  It was like watching 'us' in 3rd person.

So you may be sitting there thinking, "maybe she likes the park".  Maybe she does.  She also knows the odds of seeing me there are super high.  She used to complain about having lunch in the park all the time.  It was even worse if we had to stay in our cars.  That's why I found her eating at the park so ironic.  She could go have lunch anywhere.  She's openly seeing L, so any restaurant (there's several within walking distance of the office) is open to them.  He picks her up for lunch, so a place to eat isn't hard to get to.  L lives in an apartment.  She could've taken him to her parents (where she lives).  Anything.  But she chooses the park.  I have since lost my favorite lunch spot because of this. 

Nothing (and I mean nothing) is about us, Scopi. It's all about them and what they want.  Yours is still exerting control via telling you to stop following her kids (different topic all together), mine is doing so by flaunting her new happiness by taking my favorite lunch place away.  They're doing this because they have no other way of doing so.  They're emotionally stunted, children trapped in adult bodies, and have no other way of expressing their anger for what you've done to them.  Never mind what they've done to you, of course.  It's about them, always.

[MapleBob]

Scopikaz, you and I have talked a lot on this board, and we went through similar things at similar times, right? My advice to you: you have to ultimately look at this relationship for what it is right now, not what you'd prefer it to be like. She's not taking steps towards you at all. I know that that hurts, and that it's not what you want, and that it doesn't make a lick of sense. But it is what it is, and that's probably how it's going to stay. I say this as someone who has 100% "been there".

[Scopikaz]

Oh. I know.  And I appreciate it.  She really is on her own path or journey.  However wrong I think it is. However bad for her it appears to be. She's on her path and there's no stopping it.

Thanks for the input everyone.   

[bunny4523]

Unfortunately NC means no contact from everything involving her... .her children too.  No ties or the least amount you can have.  (I work with my ex so I have to have some but I keep it very limited.)  I know it's hard but you've got to do the healing on your own, with your friends. You've got to go through the pain and just get to the other side.  We all have had broken hearts, we know they heal... .

It is harder with BPD partner because there usually isn't alot of accountability or remorse for the unjustified allegations and attacks.  But sometimes it is easier to not look back, atleast it was for me.  The why's stopped mattering and I had to remember "why" it happened doesn't matter as much as the fact that it did  "happen".  I deserve better and I will probably never hear it from him so I need to know it myself.

[Lonely_Astro]

Unfortunately NC means no contact from everything involving her... .her children too.  No ties or the least amount you can have.  (I work with my ex so I have to have some but I keep it very limited.)  I know it's hard but you've got to do the healing on your own, with your friends. You've got to go through the pain and just get to the other side.  We all have had broken hearts, we know they heal... .

It is harder with BPD partner because there usually isn't alot of accountability or remorse for the unjustified allegations and attacks.  But sometimes it is easier to not look back, atleast it was for me.  The why's stopped mattering and I had to remember "why" it happened doesn't matter as much as the fact that it did  "happen".  I deserve better and I will probably never hear it from him so I need to know it myself.

Hearing from them that you deserve better doesn't help, either.  At least it didn't me.  J said that to me many times as we came to a close.  She took 'responsibility' for our demise.  It wasn't helpful because I immediately asked "why" and the only response is get was "I don't know".  Which, I'm sure, was partially true.  A lot of truths came out later about was really going on the year we had together.  I can 100% say she wasn't who she claimed to be with me.  There was SO much more going on behind the scenes.  But, J is atypical from a lot of others exes on here.  J shows heavy traits of Narc, so she is more 'difficult'.  I'm not saying that someone solely with BPD is 'easy' to have a r/s with (not at all), but from what I've read and experienced, those with Narc traits are even harder to have r/s with.  I believe that. 

Anyway, having them take responsibility and/or give you closure doesn't mean much by the end.  By that time, you're not sure what to take as fact or fiction.  J said to me "I don't know why I feel better now that we're over.  I don't want to because of all the bad stuff I did to you this past year.  But, I can't dwell on that, so."   Pretty much sums it up.  Oh and I should mention, she was in another r/s (unbeknownst to me) when she was taking responsibility/giving closure. She had started that r/s before we officially ended.  Ultimately, she was being so blunt because she had a new supply. 

[Pretty Woman]

Scorp,

   If that is your birthsign I am one too. .

I have read your posts for sometime. I have wanted to comment but I haven't. Not because of anything you've written. I am sort of in an odd state in my recovery and have been more of an observer the past few months.

I am almost a year out of a four year relationship with a BPD. We have had NC since the day she replaced me with another. She hasn't attempted to contact me at all and I have not contacted her.

The day she left me for my replacement she told me I was "the love of her life" and her best friend. That I would always be her best friend but it was over and she was in love with someone else... .after a week knowing them. Her psycho new partner even called me and told me my relationship had been over for awhile. This person had NO idea what I had been through with this person. It was very condescending. The irony was I had started to become friends with the person I was left for... .and she had been cheated on by her previous partner.

I still wish she would come back, show up at my door, but this is only to validate she really has BPD. I think that's what a lot of us struggle with when we don't have a firm diagnosis. But as others have commented on here... .does that really matter?

This person treated us less than we ever deserved.

Self love my friend. THAT is what we need to focus on.

Anyone who stays in a less than satisfying, emotional and or physically abusive relationship is co-dependent on their abuser. This is mistaken for LOVE. If we were not somewhat broken inside we would not have stayed.

People will give you a lot of advice on here. We sometimes snap because we get frustrated. It's hard seeing someone go through what you did and sometimes we forget we are at different stages.

The posters that are saying block her. Well that is entirely up to you. Sometimes I think that just shows them they are getting to you. After all, Facebook really is childish most of the time, if you think about it.

The best and HARDEST thing you can do is cut off contact. At first the quiet will be hard, your thoughts will be on her... .but as time goes by it DOES get better, friend. You really need to treat this like an addiction. Al-Anon actually helped me! My friend dragged me to a meeting and a lot of my feelings came out there. It was very cathartic.

Keep posting, keep observing and try not to take others comments to heart. Everyone here wants the best for you. Someday you will see that when you are further along and reading the boards.

My best to you.

PW

[bunny4523]

"Anyone who stays in a less than satisfying, emotional and or physically abusive relationship is co-dependent on their abuser. This is mistaken for LOVE. If we were not somewhat broken inside we would not have stayed."

so true and more reason why we need to focus on ourselves until we are no longer broken... .   the sooner you get out the better.

[Caley]

Bunny, I'm sorry but I disagree.

When Bernie Madoff (who is now serving prison time for fraud) abused the trust given to him by his investors ... was it because those investors were 'broken'?

He lulled those investors into trusting him with their resources and abused their trust. That's why he is in prison. Not because those people were broken ... but because it was a breach of trust by someone who knowingly did what he did.

Minimising someone's poor behaviour by giving attention to the idea that you might be broken is akin to accepting a Cluster B's protestation, to you pointing out to them that their behaviour is damaging to relationships, and accepting that ... when they say 'it's all your fault' ... is accepting their skewed machinations that it is 'all your fault' ... because, if you weren't 'broken' ... it wouldn't have happened. Poor behaving person ... 1 ... recipient of poor behaviour ... Nil.

[C.Stein]

Minimising someone's poor behaviour by giving attention to the idea that you might be broken is akin to accepting a Cluster B's protestation, to you pointing out to them that their behaviour is damaging to relationships, and accepting that ... when they say 'it's all your fault' ... is accepting their skewed machinations that it is 'all your fault' ... because, if you weren't 'broken' ... it wouldn't have happened. Poor behaving person ... 1 ... recipient of poor behaviour ... Nil.

Not really sure where you came up with this from Bunny's post?  It doesn't do any good to point fingers without self reflection.  I believe the point to take away here is we can't do anything about "them", we can only look at ourselves and grow from this experience.

We need to see the how and why we got involved, why did we stay way longer than we should have (in some cases), why did we allow the things we did.  To not learn from the past is almost a guarantee you will repeat it.  :)oes this seem reasonable?

[Caley]

C.Stein,

Not really sure what you mean when referring to pointing fingers.

My point was ... that yielding to a belief of 'brokenness' implies that there is something wrong, or damaged, with a person and that is why they attracted being treated badly by another. It is this belief I disagree with. I disagree with the belief that being 'broken' is a reason for being treated poorly. I just don't get that. To me it is a method to excuse the inexcusable ... and one shouldn't shoulder another persons behaviour because one is not responsible for behaviour/actions other than one's own ... unless the reaction to it is hurtful by provocation.

Perhaps we're saying the same thing.

[Lonely_Astro]

Bunny, I'm sorry but I disagree.

When Bernie Madoff (who is now serving prison time for fraud) abused the trust given to him by his investors ... was it because those investors were 'broken'?

He lulled those investors into trusting him with their resources and abused their trust. That's why he is in prison. Not because those people were broken ... but because it was a breach of trust by someone who knowingly did what he did.

Minimising someone's poor behaviour by giving attention to the idea that you might be broken is akin to accepting a Cluster B's protestation, to you pointing out to them that their behaviour is damaging to relationships, and accepting that ... when they say 'it's all your fault' ... is accepting their skewed machinations that it is 'all your fault' ... because, if you weren't 'broken' ... it wouldn't have happened. Poor behaving person ... 1 ... recipient of poor behaviour ... Nil.

I think someone being taken on a scam and someone involved in a r/s where one partner has a disorder aren't exclusively in the same category.  I say that because while Madoff knew what he was doing to his investors for his own selfish interest, those investors didnt know what was being done to them.  In that category, for many of us, that is the same... .but the difference lies in that Madoff knew what he was doing.  Many of our partners do things and don't know why or they don't have the forethought of the long term consequences to their actions.  

I understand what you mean and as anyone here can tell you, I do not cut a disordered person any slack... .especially those that are self aware of their issues.  But, there is some self reflection that must be done to ourselves, once we become aware of our partners issues and we choose to stay, as to why we are agreeing to stay; even though we know in the end that the r/s will not be healthy because one member isn't healthy.  There is an underlying issue in all of us (codependent, rescuer, etc).  That needs to be explored by us so we can better understand ourselves and be more informed (and stable) for our chosen r/s with a pwBPD (if we choose to stay or to go, whatever our choice).  It's not about being broken ourselves and/our pointing fingers.  It's about being informed and have understanding of your own motivations, wants, and needs. 

[Scopikaz]

Pretty woman, over all my ex treated me very well. She cleaned out my ears, trimmed nose hairs, poked and prodded me of there were pimples or whatever. Lol. She always wanted me to wear my seat belt and said she didn't want to lose me.  Always wanted me to kiss her in morning. When I got home.  And before bed.   

The only bad things were things I triggered in her.  Her jealousy.  Me losing the money on condo because she threatened to leave.  Her meltdown/rage at my friends.  Her not liking my dog at all. Her not paying for more at house in terms of bills or such.  Her not taking blame for anything or seeing need for her to change. Etc.

So up until end overall she was good. 

[bunny4523]

@Caley

We are on the same page. I didn't mean that we are broken and that is why we found them (BPD).  I was more referring to the "staying" part.  Of course, I feel I was manipulated and tricked.  Complete bait and switch was done to me. But even after I saw that and knew there were big issues, I tried to stay and work it out (even though my gut told me danger, danger) Why?  because I was struggling with insecurities in that moment. (broken)  Embarassed about the relationship ending, having to tell people one month after I got engaged and moved in that the wedding was off.  Telling my son, sorry I just moved you out of your home of 7 years but we need to move again.  I should have left the first night he kicked me out but then again, I would've left wondering if it was me... .Atleast by staying, I realized it wasn't me.       

[JerryRG]

I so agree with you bunny, you expressed what I think, I'm still foggy and mixed up so very difficult for me to express my feelings and or make sense, yet.

These forums and you people are wonderful, I feel strange saying this because we are all here because of tragic circumstances, I hope you understand.

[AwakenedOne]

I don't think all of us fall under the "broken" category. Some didn't know or understand that our ex's were disordered until after being married to them or having a child together and then in those type of cases tried to make it work. Trying to make things work in the end turns out to be impossible and a huge waste of time while at the same time your daily life consists of varying levels of hell and horror. From experience and stories read here, it seems that dating a pwBPD most of the time involves them drooling over you with stars and hearts in their eyes while they tell you that you are "the best in every way","most handsome" and while you hear "and I like that too", "that's great","yeah your right about that","I want to also", "we could do that" "I always wanted to do that" etc... .etc... .Most or all of the real is hidden from view either consciously or subconsciously or both. Don't get married until you know someone at least a year and have gone through A LOT of situations with them so that you can observe how they are when they get mad, sad, are under stress and can test their ability to tell the truth, loyalty, faith etc... .etc...  

She cleaned out my ears, trimmed nose hairs, poked and prodded me of there were pimples or whatever. Lol.

[bunny4523]

@awakenedone,

Your right it is hard to see all those things at first but just to take it up a notch and show how complicated this can truely be... .I worked with my BPD partner for 7 years before we dated.  I thought I saw him in all those situations... .even the dating period he did a great job of hiding it.  After 8 months of dating, we decided to move in together... .I think he was rushing it because I think deep down he knew he couldn't hold up the charade. But at the time, I thought he was just a strong, confident, successful man who knew what he wanted.  I had no reason to believe anything different at that point.  It wasn't even a month after I moved in, I started to feel so many things change and inconsistencies and his anger started showing.  I stopped trying to make sense of it and communicating, I just watched and that's when I started seeing him spinning in all directions.  He had been hijaking my logical explanations for his irrational behaviors!  So I got out... .but the pain and turmoil were the same... .didn't really matter that we weren't "married".

I don't think any of us should blame ourselves for believing in and loving someone, giving our partners the benefit of the doubt.  That is how love was meant to be.  Don't let this experience change how you love or who you are.  When you find the right person to love, it will be amazing. Stay who you are and just be more careful who you share it with and if they show they are unworthly of that kind of affection/intimacy - all you can do is leave.  Stay while it's good, leave if it turns bad.  That's really all we have control over.   

My first dysfunctional relationship, married 10 years, atleast 5 rocky years.  It took me so long to get the strength to get out.  Single for 10 years.  My second relationship, I got out in 5 months.  I'm proud of that. I'm learning and becoming more aware.  Growth is what I am focused on now.  There are alot of unhealthy people out there but I'm not giving up on love.  I won't let him do that to me and I'm not blaming myself for getting into this situation.  Yet I am more aware of the red flags and will be more prepared in the future.

You are all so wonderful and have helped me so much!     

[C.Stein]

Don't get married until you know someone at least a year and have gone through A LOT of situations with them so that you can observe how they are when they get mad, sad, are under stress and can test their ability to tell the truth, loyalty, faith etc... .etc...

My "rule" is date for at least a year then live together for a least a year.  After that, if you are still together then chances are you will have a successful marriage.  Personally I don't think you really get to know someone until you live with them.  Even a year of dating isn't really enough in some cases as the honeymoon period can last this long or longer.  One thing for certain though, unless you are dating a very genuine and authentic person (i.e. thin or no masks) then what you see in the honeymoon period is not telling the whole story.  This applies to everyone, not just people who struggle with a PD.