WOW I left my wife

[Lucky Jim]

it is also possible that once she sees that you are holding your ground, and she can not coerce you with her all or none request, she may be open to negotiation ( or not). It may not be right away. But this is a first step in establishing a relationship where your boundaries are considered, and you don't cave to all her wants. Upholding boundaries is a risk. pw BPD don't like them. Their first reaction can be to cut off the relationship entirely. But boundaries don't mean much if they are not upheld.

Well said, Notwendy.  The use of an ultimatum, "you're either all in or all out," is a form of manipulation, or coercion, as Notwendy suggests.  Fact is, there are plenty of other options between these two extremes.  Don't cave in to her demands, is my suggestion.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

The whole intimacy/marriage/partnership thing wasn't working for you at all the way it was... .that's why you left! This makes the "in or out" choice particularly difficult for you.

These sort of all or nothing choices are a problem for both of you, and you've gotten good advice on it.

What about changing the discussion with her to one about you seeing the kids?

I'm assuming you know whether you want to be "in or out" as a parent... .that you want to see them and support them as a parent.

Focus on that.

[ArleighBurke]

What about changing the discussion with her to one about you seeing the kids?

I DO want to see the kids. I think that she's just really not sure how to frame it to them. She doesn't want to have to explain why dad is only around a little bit - which is why she suggested it was easier for me just to go away "for work" for a few weeks. I did suggest coming home for the weekend - then having to go away for work again - but she still said no.

[ArleighBurke]

I got a phone call this morning from her at 7AM. My brother (a really nice guy) emailed her with what I presume was a supportive message.

She was distraught and in tears. I did say sorry and was validating a LOT in the conversation, but I've removed those from below. Here are the snippets:

Her: I just received am email from your brother. What did you tell him?

Me: Just that I had moved out temporarily and that we were trying to work through things.

Her: What do you mean you've moved out? I thought you were just taking some time to think.

Her: Who else have you told?

Her: You left me. Like everyone else you left me alone!

Me: I meant what I said last night - I do value our friendship. I want you to stay as part of my life - I just don't know in how much of my life.

Her: (something about that doesn't work or she can't do that)

Her: You've given up. After 18yrs you've just walked away. You should be trying to fix this. How can you fix things when you're not here?

Me: I feel like we've been trying to fix this for the last year.

Her: How can I help when you're not here.

Me: When I told you what I was struggling with you pretty much just told me what i wanted was unrealistic.

Her: 5 counselling sessions is not trying to fix things (the sessions SHE stopped). You need to stay and keep trying.

Her: Come home to your family.

Me: That is a nice thought.

Her: (Something... .) kids have to choose their loyalties and know who to blame.

[ArleighBurke]

So I went to a meetup group function tonight, a group I've never been to. I'm not quite sure why, and I almost didn't go, but i think I'm trying to see what "normal" is. It was in town, at a food festival. I didn't know anyone.

When i walked around the festival i was looking at everyone there. Families, couples, groups. There were kids feeding the ducks, playing games, live music. I sat on the grass in my new group and just chatted about anything/nothing with peopel I didn't know. It felt fantastic! I thought - why can't I have this with my family? But my wife wouldn't. She would be anxious in the open spaces, anxious around the crowds, anxious around new people, worrying about the kids being molested, wandering off. Even if it was with our own friends there would still be much worry. Even if it was our own friends in our own backyard - she'd still be anxious. And that's just her. It's not her fault - but can I live with it?

One of the people I met tonight was a single mum with 2 kids, has full time care (but grandparent support), works full time and is studying. SHE made time to come to the festival for a few hours. Another girl - same deal. And there were many families there. So my wife's suggestion that "we have to sacrifice our lives for the kids" seems wrong.

When I have time apart from my wife, I start to think that perhaps the marraige isn't so bad - that I'm exagerating how bad things are. I wonder perhaps I'm just selfish and if I go back things can be good. But it's not just about not going out with her. It's not just about her anxieties. It's about her excuses for not doing anything, not taking care of herself, her basically hiding from life, me feeling empty.

[Notwendy]

Consider that you both brought your set of relationship tools to the marriage and arrived at some sort of balance. She uses the tools that work for her. You responded with the tools you had to keep things in balance.

We use what works. If her response to something is distress, blame ( you, something else, someone else) and your response is to try to fix things, then you will respond by accommodating. Being able to self soothe is a skill. If she turns to you with her distress-  this upsets you.  You then respond by soothing your discomfort by soothing her by accommodating.

Been in this place many times as co-dependency is a habit I learned. I can't make anyone learn to manage their own feelings but I can be aware that I need to manage my own feelings when someone close to me is distressed, because if I help my feelings by helping their feelings, then neither of us learn to manage our own feelings.

Your wife is anxious when the two of you go out? Your solution has been not to go out. If you go out, she feels bad, so instead of you feeling bad because she feels bad, you don't go out. But you could have chosen to go out, even if she chose not to, but then you might face her being unhappy.

As to her message to you, it is understandable. She feels angry, hurt, scared and is blaming you. But this kind of separation is difficult, for anyone. Each of you will have to deal with your feelings- and you can not control what she does. If her main relationship tool is to blame, project- then she is who she is- and if this tool worked for her for all these years, why wouldn't she use it.

If your main relationship tool is as a rescuer- and this has been the familiar tool for you for years, you will probably tend to do this too. But if you want something different, you will need to learn different ways to relate to her, and others. This isn't something people learn quickly, or easily, in or out of a relationship.

I can't tell you what to do- that will be up to you. At this point, you have a mix of emotions. My own feeling about times of ambivalence, uncertainty, stress, is to work out some of these feelings before making major decisions if at all possible- to leave for good, go back, get into another relationship. Your wife has given you an all or none option, but if the honest response is " I don't know honey, right now I am upset and confused and need to sort my feelings out" then that is where you are at for now.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey wsk, I hear a lot of F-O-G in her phone call to you. 

"You need to stay and keep trying" (obligation); "You've given up" (guilt); "kids have to choose their loyalties" (fear), etc.

What I don't hear is her taking any responsibility for the current situation or making any suggestions as to what the two of you might do to change things to a healthier dynamic.

I doubt you will hear that, because those w/BPD are loathe to blame themselves for the problems and conflicts they create.

Suggest you hold your ground and let the dust settle before you do anything.

Change is in the air, which I view as a good thing.

Hang in there,

LuckyJim

[livednlearned]

Hi ArleighBurke,

With BPD divorces that involve kids, you basically swap out known challenges for new ones. The challenges don't go away, they change.

You seem desperate to get out of the home and catch a breath, and it's important that you listen to that instinct. It could be that this is one part of you trying to take care of another part of you, and you're conflicted because the part that wants to catch a breath isn't one you listen to a whole lot. So it's good that you're taking care of yourself. Moving out without a clear plan suggests to me that you have been in free fall and you just pulled the rip cord. Maybe try to judge your actions less in terms of being selfish and more in terms of survival.

It also seems like there is some magical thinking going on, at least in terms of life post-divorce. Are you imagining that if you divorce, you and your wife can remain friends, and you'll be able to visit the kids and swing by to clean the house and cook for them? What kind of relationship do you have with the kids now, and what do you imagine it will be like after the divorce? What kind of relationship do you want with your kids?

I wonder, too, if you and your wife might be good candidates for doing a therapeutic separation, although whether it works or not comes down to many variables, including some that may be hard to see when you're in the marriage.

TOOLS: Therapeutic Separation

Sometimes the bad habits of the relationship are so ingrained on a day to day basis that recovering from within the current living situation is nearly impossible. Many couples hang in there hoping for the best and when it doesn't come, end up in a divorce that neither may have really wanted. There is an alternative - therapeutic separation - members here have had varying levels of success and failure with this.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Williamskevin,  I have been reading this thread and   hugs to you.  Notwendy gives some very good advice about the codependent habit of accomodating her to feel better yourself.  I have been working on undoing this habit myself.  It is a very hard one to break.  But, with lots of practice and perseverance, it can be done.

Also, livedandlearned makes a good point about a possible "therapeutic separation".  I eould share that in my case, I was out of the house, just grown kids, so not so challenging, but still after decades together leaving was wrenching.  After several months I moved back in and things have been a work in progress since I moved back.  I have committed myself to improving my situation, peace, happiness and my life in general.  This has meant a lot of different things.  My husband felt abandoned and has had a hard time trusting me again.  But, it has been worth it because I know what kind of life I want and have made significant changes.  I never thought this would happen, but just recently he said something like when you left me at Christmas last year (I didn't fall for that guilt trip and defend myself) I learned to be more self-sufficient and that has made things better for you, hasn't it? And actually it has!  And he realizes it.   The separation gave me space and breathing room to make some decisions about what kind of life I would move forward with.

Also, like Lucky Jim says,it is not all or nothing or black or white.  In the book, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, the author points out that there are many ways to live.  You have to decide what is best for you. If you are not ready to decide then that is a choice, too.  

Finally, I don't know if you are religious, but acceptance is certainly something we all have to practice having a relationship with a pwBPD (or any other person ). The Serenity Prayer is still solid advice - courage to change the things we can change, patience to accept the things we cannot change, wisdom to know the difference.  One more thing I would add that has helped me is that I cannot control a lot of things, but God can do things if we just let go.  Weird, but I have been a Christian for a long time and this is still something that I am forever learning.  

I am glad you posted.  Wishing you the best, I think you will find it.  

Mustbeabetterway

[ArleighBurke]

So after a very difficult Friday/Sat/Sun, with my uBPDw taking time off work, having the kids being looked after so she could fall apart, etc, we finally started actually talking. We actually emailed because we've found previously that it allows us to choose our words more carefully and is less in-your-face.

She said she wanted me back, and promised to change "everything". I didn't listen to that. Or her pleading on the kids behalf and everything else. But there were 2 things she did say that I did listen to:

- She said she'd dropped her anti-depressents a while back, and perhaps that was making her more edgy. And she suggested she try a new psychologist (like our MC recommended a few months back).

- And she was able to state EXACTLY what I wanted in the relationship. She said it was achievable (even though she'd said previously that she couldn't do it)

So I agreed to come back, to work on things with her, and re-assess in 3 months. She says that if I'm not happy after 3 months then she would "let me leave". I don't believe that! But I am truely dedicated to trying to make it work - i would certainly prefer to stay with her and the kids than to leave. I am going to ensure that the new psychologist she sees is a BPD specialist, and that is where my biggest hope is - that she will learn some tools and we can start to really make progress. I'm not expecting rainbows - just slow steady progress in the right direction.

I don't know where this will end up. Perhaps it is still doomed. But perhaps my wife's desire for family, desire for the marraige and her general stubborness will enable us to move forwards. After 16yrs of marriage I think another few months is well worth it. I will keep you all posted... .

(And my counsellor told me today just what you all have been telling - don't try to solve HER problems - let HER suggest and impliment the solutions).

[empathic]

She said she wanted me back, and promised to change "everything". I didn't listen to that. Or her pleading on the kids behalf and everything else.

Just wanted to say that I got a text from my wife this morning stating essentially just this. Interesting how the patterns can be so similar... .

[Notwendy]

With or without your wife, if anything is going to change, IMHO, there needs to be a change in you. The patterns between you are very habitual. At this point, your part of this relationship- your relationship skills- are the same ones you had when you left. You may have scared her momentarily, and she may very well be sincere in her wishes to change and for things to be different, but the skills she has are still the ones she has.

This takes some work- MC is good, but I also think it means some personal T. If you set boundaries, you will need to be able to handle her distress. This isn't about her being different, but you being different. Naturally, nobody wants to hurt someone on purpose, or do truly hurtful things, but having any boundaries can result in a pw BPD feeling distress. It becomes a choice. However, they are adults, and can learn to manage their feelings better if allowed to do so. Our task is to manage ours.

[Thread]

I'm pretty impressed by your boldness. Good luck and I'm sorry because I'm sure this was a very difficult decision to come by. You have done what I believe many of us long to do at times, but for one reason or another are just cant take the action that you have.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a strong alternative recommendation for you regarding this choice of yours:

I don't know where this will end up. Perhaps it is still doomed. But perhaps my wife's desire for family, desire for the marraige and her general stubborness will enable us to move forwards. After 16yrs of marriage I think another few months is well worth it. I will keep you all posted... .

Don't just keep us posted here. Post as frequently as you can how it is going on the Improving board instead. The mission there is to make what you have better, and you've got a lot to do still.

Your wife obviously has a lot of work to do to make things work.

You can do a lot of work on yourself--and if you do, it will help you in any relationship you get into, not just this one. It will also give her more space to deal with her own issues.

So go over there and post your story. I'd suggest a brief background and then start with what your plans are for moving back in, and how you expect it to go... .or how it actually went, looking for ways to make it better on your side of things.

And let me also say that I'm really impressed with your willingness to try to do this the best and hardest way. I know how hard it is. I've changed my role in a marriage where I was abused without leaving it, and it was one of the toughest things I ever did, but also one of the most rewarding accomplishments I'm proudest of.

[Lucky Jim]

hey wsk, What makes you think it will go differently this time?  I recycled numerous times and am not judging your decision either way.  I used various rationalizations to justify staying, some of which were pretty far-fetched.  I finally reached the end of the line.  Think you will know it when and if you get there (maybe you won't and hope you don't).

LuckyJIm

[ArleighBurke]

The biggest (and probably only) hope I have, is that her changing psychologist will prompt change. Her current one (of 9yrs) seems to be doing nothing. They talk each week about "being OK with herself". It's lose CBT.

I am going to make sure that her new psych is a BPD expert, and will "pre-educate" them on how I see things (our history and progress).

I think the other difference is that I've now demonstrated that I *can* leave. I think that really shook her. It may be a bad thing - in that she may never be able to trust me again - but she wasn't trusting me anyway (because 3yrs ago I didn't have an affair but she considers i did). I can quite easily see her being a perfect wife for the next few months until things start to slide again.

Things may change - but they also may not. Untimately I didn't really have anything to lose by going back to her. I consider my mental health to be pretty good. It was very painful leaving, and it will be if I have to leave again, but I also feel fundamentally OK with leaving - I know I've given it a very good try.

But right now I will assume the best, help her where I can, maintain my own life and sanity, keep improving my validation, and wait... .

[Grey Kitty]

You can leave.

You can enforce boundaries against verbal / emotional abuse (or physical abuse; I forget if you experienced that too)

In all cases, your wife won't like it, will fight it / resist it / etc.

However ... .in the end, whether she admits it or not, she will respect you more if you stand up for your values and enforce boundaries than if you are a doormat. (And after she gets accustomed to it, you might possibly hear this from her... .I did eventually from my wife)

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Williamskevin,  it sounds as if you are making the decision based on what you think/feel is best.  Congratulations on using Wisemind and combining those two sides.

In my experience, and what I have found, is that no matter if your S/O is perfect, or less than perfect, your responses and boundaries can change the relationship.  The goal is to live the life you should be living and that is not up to our spouses/S/O, but lies within us.  Once you know that, you cannot unknow it.

Deciding what you want and taking steps in that direction will be a relief.  When one partner stops dancing to the tune then things change.

Peace to you

Mustbeabetterway

[Notwendy]

If you base the criteria for change in your marriage on your wife changing, then you may be setting yourself up for more of the same thing that you have.

She is expressing a desire to change. I do not doubt that she is sincere in her wishes, but then, there is work to do. However, promises like this when made without new relationship skills are hard to implement. Also, the wishes were made with strong desire to have you back. Now, that you are back, that motivation may be less, even though she wants this to happen. If you are the one wanting change- you have motivation, then let that drive you to improve the relationship by doing your part in it- with you.

Beware of "reasons". There are "reasons" when people tend to project- the medication, the doctor, the dog threw up, the neighbor. Yes, she may do better with another doctor, medical plan, but focusing on something external without the focus on personal work may not address the relationship issues.

If you want change, it has to be you implementing change in you. Appeasement, co-dependency, being reactive, poor self esteem, FOO and more. With or without her. The payoff for the work on yourself  is yours.

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, Notwendy.  Totally agree.

Talk is cheap; so are promises.  Now that she has you back, as Notwendy notes, she may lack impetus.  Lasting change is up to you.

I suggest setting an internal time limit, just for yourself, at which point you will re-evaluate.

LuckyJim

[Notwendy]

One suggestion is to maintain boundaries. All relationships tend to be in a sort of balance, and with dysfunction it is a balance between dysfunction in both partners. Pw BPD traits  tend to be in balance with people with co dependent traits. Often it seems that the co-dependent partner is the one showing the more distress over time with the behaviors of the pw  BPD. The co-dependent person can seem puzzled that they are so caring a giving, and the pw BPD's poor behaviors continue. What is harder for that partner to see is their own enabling behavior.

When one person changes the steps of this "dance", the response of the other partner is to try to re-establish that balance, which even if there were problems, did exist as a means of comfort and habit. Your leaving no doubt shook up your wife, and you. This is natural, but at this very moment, neither of you have learned a new way to interact. What you have now is exactly the relationship you left.

Your wife not only wants you back, she wants the comfortable, familiar you back. However, if you wish to change the relationship dynamics, you need to not be doing all the same things that got you to the point of leaving. If you do, then the more likely course is for the two of you to do what you have already been doing. It is great that she wants to change and she may be able to do so for a while with the skills she has, but real change takes time to maintain. It isn't always linear. The two of you can backslide. I think guidance from a T is helpful in holding both of you accountable. But you should also see a change over time, especially if you are working on you, and keeping the focus on you. If you are different, the dynamics will likely be.

When I read about couples "recycling", I didn't quite understand it because I personally have not recycled with a partner in the sense of leave/get back together. But I understand it from my interactions with BPD mom. She would recognize when she had pushed me too far. Then, "good mother" would appear with promises that things would be better. Her idealized self- her better self- wants to be a good mother, and wants to have that nice mother daughter relationship that her elderly friends have. So she will call me --- in that voice- that somewhat mesmerizing voice that speaks the words of her ideal self- and it is so easy to buy into it because it is all that I wanted as a kid- this mommy. And it is so easy to discount the fact that in reality, she has been emotionally abusive because she is who she is. She may want to change, but it takes work. She had no incentive to treat me differently until I implemented boundaries. One was that if I was visiting and she started being verbally abusive, I would walk out the door. I don't threaten to leave. In fact, I choose not to cut off the relationship. But she has learned from me that she does not get to verbally abuse me and she does not do it now. I see where my mother can change, and she did, but only when I changed by establishing boundaries, otherwise she would not feel a need to change.

Your wife knows you can leave and she may fear that. She may hold it together out of fear, but then, if the fear dissipates, so does the motivation. Your boundaries are the better long term "teachers" of what you will not tolerate.

[ArleighBurke]

If you base the criteria for change in your marriage on your wife changing, then you may be setting yourself up for more of the same thing that you have.

She is expressing a desire to change. I do not doubt that she is sincere in her wishes, but then, there is work to do.

Beware of "reasons". There are "reasons" when people tend to project- the medication, the doctor, the dog threw up, the neighbor. Yes, she may do better with another doctor, medical plan, but focusing on something external without the focus on personal work may not address the relationship issues.

If you want change, it has to be you implementing change in you. Appeasement, co-dependency, being reactive, poor self esteem, FOO and more. With or without her. The payoff for the work on yourself  is yours.

OK - I agree with all this. I have made many changes within me over the last few years, and I'm sure my losing co-dependency has pushed her away and made her feel unsettled.

My position at the moment is "I do not want to live my life without you. I am going to socialise and enjoy life. I need you to be a part of that. And if we can't work out how to make that happen - then I can't live with you."

I have tried in the past to help her make life happen. Different events, different situations (out/in), timings, people, everything. Nothing has helped. She has told me that lack if trust in ME makes her more edgy and less willing, and she has suggested some things I can do to help her feel at ease. I am happy to do those (even though i don't beleive they will help). But i have now put this back on her... .

My belief is that her current psych is not helping her, and a new one would do better. But I don't really have much to base that on, so i am going to drop that idea/requirement.

I told her last night that i would do those things, but SHE needs to work out how to be OK with going out with me. I said i understand it'll take time, and am willing to work with her (small steps) to make it happen. But I have NO more suggestions. I will now SUPPORT her, but I will not LEAD.

My other plan (which i admit is leading... .) is to work through "the high conflict couple" with her - reading and agreeing on which chapters to focus our behaviour changes on.

[Circle]

... .

Today - my uBPDxgf calls me now and then and cries over issues. I usually try to listen for a while, but it usually ends up with her pushing her problems onto me or ask me to solve them for her, at which point I bluntly tell her "hey, it's no my problem that you can't transport furniture you want to buy to your place" or "it's not my problem you can't afford something you want really bad." And I honestly haven't felt this good in years. My life is great. I work, study, go to the gym, read a lot, take care of myself and my home, and people really like being around me. I don't need someone to take a dump on me every single day, telling me how worthless I am (explicitly or implicitly). Life is great.

Abandon that crap my friend, you deserve better. And if she thinks she deserves to have a better life (in regards to all her problems), it's up to HER to take care of that, not you.

Good reply; I enjoyed it.

[C.Stein]

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