Figuring it out through the self-blame

[HurtinNW]

Hello all

I've been working hard cleaning up my side of the street. Tomorrow I see my counselor again. As FF suggested, I'm making room in the budget for her. I think it will help. She does AEDP therapy, which is good for healing trauma. I'm hoping to make more progress with her on my trauma history.

The more I try to clean up my side of the street I go through these deeply confused moments. I can't tell if I am in the FOG, not taking accountability, or if he was gas-lighting me. I'll try to explain.

We had a lot of arguments, especially before I started practicing the tools. I often felt any discussion had the potential to trigger an argument. The arguments often led to him raging, breaking up with me, and leaving. Now, from his perspective there was always an underlying problem related to me that caused the whole issue. In general he cast this as me being "difficult."

The focus then became my reactions, real or imagined, to his anger.

I could give dozens of examples, but one that comes to mind is once one of the kids left something on the counter. I could hear him slamming cupboards and cursing. I went downstairs to see what was wrong. He got angry, said that I was "accusing" him of being mad, escalated into a tantrum, and stormed out of the house. Later he told me how he had called a friend and they commiserated how I had gotten mad at him for no reason at all. That little encounter ended up being brought up repeatedly as evidence of how over-reactive and difficult I am.

Sometimes I think of my reactions and behaviors and I think he was right, that I was being over-reactive. There were times I am sure I over-reacted to something. As I've written, I became so flooded and reactive over time, with my PTSD, that I don't doubt I became "glove shy." Once he started getting angry I would get flooded, sometimes shaking and eventually crying. I had panic attacks which I am sure were hard on him.

But over time I lost sight of what normal is like. Even when he wasn't getting angry he was rolling his eyes, sighing with exasperation, and acting scornful. I've written about how he would repeat things I had said, making me sound like a shrew. That sort of stuff happened so much, on a daily basis when we were together (if he wasn't idealizing me, which happened less and less over time). If I write it out it sounds bad, but what confuses me is at the time it seemed normal because he acted like it was normal. He also completely denied doing things he had done, which made me feel like I was going crazy.

I ruminate too much over how he would describe the loss of the relationship, and when I do, he sounds perfectly reasonable. I can hear his voice describing how he couldn't take it anymore, and taking basic facts and presenting them in such a way that makes me sound horrible, and him the victim.

I don't know why I have a hard time finding my reality in this history. It seems like if I had a better sense of confidence I wouldn't be picking over our relationship, feeling to blame, wondering if there wasn't something I couldn't have done differently.

[Narkiss]

I think you are trying to make sense of what happened, as you would in any relationship. The thing is that he was playing by different rules. So nothing makes sense. Or it only makes sense to you if you think it is your fault.

An example: my pwBPD cut me off because I happened to say same phrase that his first wife did during a significant argument. Did I do this purpose --no. Did I know what it meant to him --also no. But he thought I did. There was no way I could have avoided that, (I am not a mind reader) but I still blamed myself.

If you want accountability so you will do things differently next time (with someone else), could you just ask yourself that -- what would you do differently if You were dealing with non-disordered person?

My person's actions make no sense either because I am missing a big piece of the puzzle. So I either blame myself or feel rejected. Neither feels very good. The reality is that he is likely wholly selfish -- and just self-aware enough to realize and deplore it. That he does what he feels like he needs to to keep from drowning (although it has the opposite effect). That I exist for him as long as I help, gratify or delight him. That also he is reacting to something else. And nothing I do will change any of this.

[vortex of confusion]

Now, from his perspective there was always an underlying problem related to me that caused the whole issue. In general he cast this as me being "difficult."

I can really relate to this. The interesting thing is that as I tell more and more people my story, the more and more I am told that I am NOT difficult. Even my kids comment on how easy going and easy I am to deal with. My coworkers have commented on how easy going I am. Sure, I have a stubborn streak and can be spirited but demanding and difficult is not something anybody has ever really described me as until my stbx decided that I wanted too much when I asked him to go to counseling. Heck, he could forget all sorts of stuff and, if I reminded him, he would get mad and say that he was going to do it.

My favorite story is the time that I was trying to deal with 4 small children at once. It was a night when I was trying to get them all to bed. I was tired and was still breastfeeding the youngest. I got frustrated and I yelled at the kids to calm down. I don't remember the specifics. I just know that the incident ended with me falling down (I say he pushed me. He says that I fell as he went past me.) We discussed it later and he said, "The kids being loud didn't bother me. I could have slept through that. You being loud is what bothered me. Why couldn't you have just left them alone and let them be kids?" WOW, I wanted to break down upon hearing that. I was tired and exhausted and I needed help that night. Somehow, him getting woke up and being a grumpy jerk was my fault because I was a failure as a parent because I was struggling by myself with night time parenting while he slept. There was nothing at all wrong with what he did. It was MY fault because I didn't stay quiet and let the kids be kids.

The focus then became my reactions, real or imagined, to his anger.

That is very difficult to handle especially when they act like their behavior is so normal. I would say things to him about something and he would tell me that he had no idea what I was talking about. "I am not mad. I don't know what you are talking about. I was raising my voice to be heard." Any of my concerns were dismissed as "that is just who I am".

Later he told me how he had called a friend and they commiserated how I had gotten mad at him for no reason at all. That little encounter ended up being brought up repeatedly as evidence of how over-reactive and difficult I am.

Of course his friend is going to commiserate with him. He is telling his friend a very skewed perspective of things. I found email exchanges between my husband and another lady where he told her that I didn't say "I love you" any more. That was such a lie. Anybody that knows me knows that it is a lie. He also told her that I didn't have sex with him any more. I may not have done it any more but I sure as heck wasn't doing it any less either. It seemed like if I didn't give it to him whenever he wanted/needed it then he saw it as "I cut him off." In all of our years together, the longest he ever went without was 6 weeks after our first daughter was born. My point is that he would see things so totally different than I did and would then tell his twisted version to people to gain their support/sympathy/whatever. Heck, if somebody told me a story like the crap my husband was spewing, I would feel sorry for them too. The problem is that the crap he was spewing was nowhere close to reality.

Sometimes I think of my reactions and behaviors and I think he was right, that I was being over-reactive. There were times I am sure I over-reacted to something. As I've written, I became so flooded and reactive over time, with my PTSD, that I don't doubt I became "glove shy." Once he started getting angry I would get flooded, sometimes shaking and eventually crying. I had panic attacks which I am sure were hard on him.

Even if you didn't have PTSD, it would be difficult. What makes it difficult is the feelings of anxiety that come from not knowing when or if you are going to say something that leads to him being butthurt. The chronic stress of living in a constant state of fight or flight can do all kinds of stuff to a person.

But over time I lost sight of what normal is like. Even when he wasn't getting angry he was rolling his eyes, sighing with exasperation, and acting scornful. I've written about how he would repeat things I had said, making me sound like a shrew. That sort of stuff happened so much, on a daily basis when we were together (if he wasn't idealizing me, which happened less and less over time). If I write it out it sounds bad, but what confuses me is at the time it seemed normal because he acted like it was normal. He also completely denied doing things he had done, which made me feel like I was going crazy.

WOW, I can so relate to this. I have looked back on some of the stuff that I did and I find myself scratching my head wondering what the heck was I thinking. So much of it seemed so normal. The one that sticks out in my mind the most is the time that he sat next to me looking at some email and said, "Hey, you should go f*** him. He has a big d***. I bet you would like that." At the time, he wasn't saying it in a mean or derogatory way. He said it like he was talking about a piece of cake or candy or something else that was completely mundane. At the time, I didn't react to it like I should have. I should have been angry because it was so disrespectful to me and the other person. Geesh, who says things like that to his wife in such a normal and matter of fact way?

At some point, he stopped denying things outright but would instead say, "Well, if you said it happened, then it must have happened." Of course, he used the most demeaning and dismissive tone so that he might as well have denied it. He would claim that he didn't remember.

I ruminate too much over how he would describe the loss of the relationship, and when I do, he sounds perfectly reasonable. I can hear his voice describing how he couldn't take it anymore, and taking basic facts and presenting them in such a way that makes me sound horrible, and him the victim.

Oh yes, I can relate to this as well. When I had enough, I told him to leave. He tried to talk to me about it and say something about how I had invited him to leave. The implication was that everything would have been fine if I hadn't "invited him to leave". He forgets that the night before he had said, in front of the kids, "I can't wait to leave." I was livid that he would say that in front of the kids. He forgets all of the things that he did. From the outside, it looks like I kicked him to the curb and am seeing somebody else. He is the poor little victim in all of this. Forget the fact that when I begged him for help several years ago, he looked at me like I was crazy. Forget the fact that his solution to our problems was "Let's see other people." Forget the fact that he has posted multiple ads online and has had several female "friends". I use the term friends loosely because his definition of a friend and my definition of a friend are totally different.  

I don't know why I have a hard time finding my reality in this history. It seems like if I had a better sense of confidence I wouldn't be picking over our relationship, feeling to blame, wondering if there wasn't something I couldn't have done differently.

Trying to find your reality is so hard. I have had an easier time finding my reality by talking to people that know me. It helps to get out and talk to people in general. In my job, I have a lot of people thank me for helping them. I get lots of compliments on how well I do my job. I have people tell me that I am easy going and fun to be around. That is a complete contradiction to some of the things that he has said. I know that ultimately one should be able to validate his/her own reality. In these kinds of situations, I think it is absolutely necessary to seek resources outside yourself.  

[HurtinNW]

I think you are trying to make sense of what happened, as you would in any relationship. The thing is that he was playing by different rules. So nothing makes sense. Or it only makes sense to you if you think it is your fault.

An example: my pwBPD cut me off because I happened to say same phrase that his first wife did during a significant argument. Did I do this purpose --no. Did I know what it meant to him --also no. But he thought I did. There was no way I could have avoided that, (I am not a mind reader) but I still blamed myself.

If you want accountability so you will do things differently next time (with someone else), could you just ask yourself that -- what would you do differently if You were dealing with non-disordered person?

My person's actions make no sense either because I am missing a big piece of the puzzle. So I either blame myself or feel rejected. Neither feels very good. The reality is that he is likely wholly selfish -- and just self-aware enough to realize and deplore it. That he does what he feels like he needs to to keep from drowning (although it has the opposite effect). That I exist for him as long as I help, gratify or delight him. That also he is reacting to something else. And nothing I do will change any of this.

Thank you Narkiss. It does feel like trying to make sense of the nonsensical. And having the nonsensical presented as the Pure and Obvious Truth makes it even harder.

I really want to understand and own my part of the dynamic. But how do I sort that out from feeling so uncertain of my own reality and truth given all the verbal abuse and gas-lighting? How do I even figure out what was what?

It occurs to me I can compare to past relationships. I have had some issues in past relationships with arguing, but nothing like this. That's an interesting thought for me to pursue. In my LTR of 15 years, for instance, we did end up arguing a lot towards the end. I can identify my mistakes in that relationship, and I did make mistakes.

That said, it feels nothing like this. I didn't have my reality altered this way. I wasn't left with such crippling doubts and feeling traumatized.

[HurtinNW]

 

Now, from his perspective there was always an underlying problem related to me that caused the whole issue. In general he cast this as me being "difficult."

I can really relate to this. The interesting thing is that as I tell more and more people my story, the more and more I am told that I am NOT difficult. Even my kids comment on how easy going and easy I am to deal with. My coworkers have commented on how easy going I am. Sure, I have a stubborn streak and can be spirited but demanding and difficult is not something anybody has ever really described me as until my stbx decided that I wanted too much when I asked him to go to counseling. Heck, he could forget all sorts of stuff and, if I reminded him, he would get mad and say that he was going to do it.

My favorite story is the time that I was trying to deal with 4 small children at once. It was a night when I was trying to get them all to bed. I was tired and was still breastfeeding the youngest. I got frustrated and I yelled at the kids to calm down. I don't remember the specifics. I just know that the incident ended with me falling down (I say he pushed me. He says that I fell as he went past me.) We discussed it later and he said, "The kids being loud didn't bother me. I could have slept through that. You being loud is what bothered me. Why couldn't you have just left them alone and let them be kids?" WOW, I wanted to break down upon hearing that. I was tired and exhausted and I needed help that night. Somehow, him getting woke up and being a grumpy jerk was my fault because I was a failure as a parent because I was struggling by myself with night time parenting while he slept. There was nothing at all wrong with what he did. It was MY fault because I didn't stay quiet and let the kids be kids.

The focus then became my reactions, real or imagined, to his anger.

That is very difficult to handle especially when they act like their behavior is so normal. I would say things to him about something and he would tell me that he had no idea what I was talking about. "I am not mad. I don't know what you are talking about. I was raising my voice to be heard." Any of my concerns were dismissed as "that is just who I am".

Later he told me how he had called a friend and they commiserated how I had gotten mad at him for no reason at all. That little encounter ended up being brought up repeatedly as evidence of how over-reactive and difficult I am.

Of course his friend is going to commiserate with him. He is telling his friend a very skewed perspective of things. I found email exchanges between my husband and another lady where he told her that I didn't say "I love you" any more. That was such a lie. Anybody that knows me knows that it is a lie. He also told her that I didn't have sex with him any more. I may not have done it any more but I sure as heck wasn't doing it any less either. It seemed like if I didn't give it to him whenever he wanted/needed it then he saw it as "I cut him off." In all of our years together, the longest he ever went without was 6 weeks after our first daughter was born. My point is that he would see things so totally different than I did and would then tell his twisted version to people to gain their support/sympathy/whatever. Heck, if somebody told me a story like the crap my husband was spewing, I would feel sorry for them too. The problem is that the crap he was spewing was nowhere close to reality.

Sometimes I think of my reactions and behaviors and I think he was right, that I was being over-reactive. There were times I am sure I over-reacted to something. As I've written, I became so flooded and reactive over time, with my PTSD, that I don't doubt I became "glove shy." Once he started getting angry I would get flooded, sometimes shaking and eventually crying. I had panic attacks which I am sure were hard on him.

Even if you didn't have PTSD, it would be difficult. What makes it difficult is the feelings of anxiety that come from not knowing when or if you are going to say something that leads to him being butthurt. The chronic stress of living in a constant state of fight or flight can do all kinds of stuff to a person.

But over time I lost sight of what normal is like. Even when he wasn't getting angry he was rolling his eyes, sighing with exasperation, and acting scornful. I've written about how he would repeat things I had said, making me sound like a shrew. That sort of stuff happened so much, on a daily basis when we were together (if he wasn't idealizing me, which happened less and less over time). If I write it out it sounds bad, but what confuses me is at the time it seemed normal because he acted like it was normal. He also completely denied doing things he had done, which made me feel like I was going crazy.

WOW, I can so relate to this. I have looked back on some of the stuff that I did and I find myself scratching my head wondering what the heck was I thinking. So much of it seemed so normal. The one that sticks out in my mind the most is the time that he sat next to me looking at some email and said, "Hey, you should go f*** him. He has a big d***. I bet you would like that." At the time, he wasn't saying it in a mean or derogatory way. He said it like he was talking about a piece of cake or candy or something else that was completely mundane. At the time, I didn't react to it like I should have. I should have been angry because it was so disrespectful to me and the other person. Geesh, who says things like that to his wife in such a normal and matter of fact way?

At some point, he stopped denying things outright but would instead say, "Well, if you said it happened, then it must have happened." Of course, he used the most demeaning and dismissive tone so that he might as well have denied it. He would claim that he didn't remember.

I ruminate too much over how he would describe the loss of the relationship, and when I do, he sounds perfectly reasonable. I can hear his voice describing how he couldn't take it anymore, and taking basic facts and presenting them in such a way that makes me sound horrible, and him the victim.

Oh yes, I can relate to this as well. When I had enough, I told him to leave. He tried to talk to me about it and say something about how I had invited him to leave. The implication was that everything would have been fine if I hadn't "invited him to leave". He forgets that the night before he had said, in front of the kids, "I can't wait to leave." I was livid that he would say that in front of the kids. He forgets all of the things that he did. From the outside, it looks like I kicked him to the curb and am seeing somebody else. He is the poor little victim in all of this. Forget the fact that when I begged him for help several years ago, he looked at me like I was crazy. Forget the fact that his solution to our problems was "Let's see other people." Forget the fact that he has posted multiple ads online and has had several female "friends". I use the term friends loosely because his definition of a friend and my definition of a friend are totally different. 

I don't know why I have a hard time finding my reality in this history. It seems like if I had a better sense of confidence I wouldn't be picking over our relationship, feeling to blame, wondering if there wasn't something I couldn't have done differently.

Trying to find your reality is so hard. I have had an easier time finding my reality by talking to people that know me. It helps to get out and talk to people in general. In my job, I have a lot of people thank me for helping them. I get lots of compliments on how well I do my job. I have people tell me that I am easy going and fun to be around. That is a complete contradiction to some of the things that he has said. I know that ultimately one should be able to validate his/her own reality. In these kinds of situations, I think it is absolutely necessary to seek resources outside yourself.   

Thank you vortex!

It really helps to be validated like this.

I'm also someone who others say is easygoing. I have a lot of drive, but always saw myself as easy to get along with. My kids and I get along great. I am pretty chill, as they say. Same with coworkers and friends. One of the surreal things is having someone who is explosive over a towel left on the floor tell you repeatedly how difficult you are. The story you tell is a lot like my experience... .after awhile I think it really made inroads into my reality system.

My ex also did the same thing of denying he was angry when he was acting angry, and then using that as an excuse to get even angrier. I learned to never, ever ask him if he was mad. That would set him off. First he would deny it and then he would yell how I was always saying he was mad. Then he would rage.

The involving others in what I have learned is triangulation by proxy was really detrimental to me. My mother did the same kind of splitting. I found it really reality bending to have my ex report back with such assurance how everyone agreed with him how difficult I am. He usually casts this as him looking for help. He's been in a men's group for some time, and would report back all the times he shared with them about his frustrations with me. Not long before the last break up, he told me how he was saying something nice about me and one of the men expressed surprise. The way he depicts it, the group was so supportive of him dealing with such a difficult woman, and encouraging him to break up with me.

Now I am looking back at all this and think, huh? Why did I not just stand up and say enough? I know the answer: because I was afraid by then. I was afraid of setting off the anger that was keeping my soul on a tether tied to someone who was tearing my heart out.

I was so hurt that this person I shared so much of my tender, private soul with would believe and say such crushing things about me, and yet I denied my hurt to myself at the time.

Re the flight and fight thing: you are so right. I am wondering if now that my body is starting to calm down and feel safe, I am able to experience how awful those moments were. Does that make sense? I am finally feeling safe, and so it is really hitting me how hurtful his behavior was. I am thinking how did that happen? How did I think that was okay? And as usual, what is wrong with me?

You ex and mine sound so much the same, especially with playing the victim. I know from the outside it looks like I kicked him to the curb again, the poor guy who loves me so much and reveres me. My head knows that is manipulative, childish and cruel, but my heart still thinks I need to fix that opinion, and the only way to do that is change how he sees me.

[joeramabeme]

Hi HurtinNW, Your post hit a nerve with me on multiple levels. 

I've been working hard cleaning up my side of the street.

The more I try to clean up my side of the street I go through these deeply confused moments. I can't tell if I am in the FOG, not taking accountability, or if he was gas-lighting me.

THIS!  This was a driving motivator for me for a loong time.  It is called INTEGRITY. Making sure that we are doing our fair sure of the business to keep the relationship working.  It is a GOOD TRAIT!

I have read in at least one book or article (I think "Stop Care taking the Borderline" that pwBPD feed on other peoples integrity and that they leverage it against us.  We spend much effort proving that we are trustworthy and instead of believing that we are, when questioned by someone else we love (care take), we try even harder. 

One of the last mean things she said to me before leaving was "you have no integrity". That is total BS!  I am a man of integrity, she is not a woman of the same.  Her actions proved it when she walked out the door on our marriage and said "I am not happy", as if she has no responsibility for that.  Did I take accountability for that?  yep!  That is what an over developed sense of integrity brings about.  And this trait also makes you ripe for Gas Lighting... .

The focus then became my reactions, real or imagined, to his anger.

Ditto, this one is called Projection.  Who gets the hot potatoe of my bad emotions because I cannot handle them. 

Sometimes I think of my reactions and behaviors and I think he was right, that I was being over-reactive.

Your overreacting may or may not be true.  But is in all likelihood aside from the point that started the discussion/argument to being with.  How did the conversation go from slamming doors to my reactions?  This is really a form of manipulation and control.  Change the topic away from your pwBPD and make you the topic - now you won't see the insides of me that do not feel whole.

But over time I lost sight of what normal is like.

I ruminate too much over how he would describe the loss of the relationship, and when I do, he sounds perfectly reasonable. I can hear his voice describing how he couldn't take it anymore, and taking basic facts and presenting them in such a way that makes me sound horrible, and him the victim.

I don't know why I have a hard time finding my reality in this history. It seems like if I had a better sense of confidence I wouldn't be picking over our relationship, feeling to blame, wondering if there wasn't something I couldn't have done differently.

He may sound reasonable but that is in all likelihood due to the confusion that has been created that is like an intentional smoke screen to veil who is really behind the curtain.

Everything you say here I could place in the context of my own r/s.  So far the best thing I have done to come to an understanding of what was going on with me was reading the book I mentioned, Stop Care Taking the Borderline.  It fit me to a t and explained exactly how I was preconfigured for this type of r/s.  Not because I am a bad guy, just because of my upbringing.  I recommend it and I hope you share more of what is going on with you... .

JRB

[Grey Kitty]

The more I try to clean up my side of the street I go through these deeply confused moments. I can't tell if I am in the FOG, not taking accountability, or if he was gas-lighting me.

The abusive and crazy-making period of my relationship is long gone, but I do remember it fairly well, and there is one thing that I figured out as I was learning tools and boundaries:

 I did have things to clean up on my side of the street, but my wife pretty much never told me about them.

 There were things my wife told me I was doing wrong. Pretty much none of them were things I was really doing. (Lots of projection)

Truly crazy-making conclusion: To clean up my side of the street I had to discount the invalid 98% of the criticism from my wife, and find the real issues that she never told me about.

No wonder it was so hard when I was mostly isolated from other inputs!

[vortex of confusion]

Now I am looking back at all this and think, huh? Why did I not just stand up and say enough? I know the answer: because I was afraid by then. I was afraid of setting off the anger that was keeping my soul on a tether tied to someone who was tearing my heart out.

I couldn't stand up and say enough because I didn't trust my own reality. I wasn't sure if I was right or he was right. If he was right, then I had to figure out how to be a better wife. I had to figure out how to stop being so difficult and so demanding. I began a quest to figure out how to be better and be more giving. It didn't change anything. All it seemed to do was make him want more and find more subtle ways to dismiss me. The brakes on my van were making noise and my van would vibrate when trying to stop. He kept telling me it was fine even though I knew better. I let him talk me out of my reality. My dad drove my van and was not happy that I didn't say anything sooner as the rotors needed turned by now. If something had been done when I first noticed it, it wouldn't have taken much to fix. I let him tell me that I was wrong. I let him tell me that everything was fine. If I didn't accept his reality, he would badger me until I did. He was like a nagging kid that didn't stop until he got what he wanted. That was so hard to take. And, I also didn't say enough because he had pretty much convinced me that I couldn't take care of the kids by myself. There were so many little things he said and did that had me really doubting my own ability to survive without him.

Re the flight and fight thing: you are so right. I am wondering if now that my body is starting to calm down and feel safe, I am able to experience how awful those moments were. Does that make sense? I am finally feeling safe, and so it is really hitting me how hurtful his behavior was. I am thinking how did that happen? How did I think that was okay? And as usual, what is wrong with me?

It makes perfect sense. I am having a similar experience. It is like all of the emotions that I suppressed or denied are coming out. I had become an expert at putting a positive spin on so many of his behaviors. I had become an expert at explaining them away or finding a way to justify them so I could continue to live with him. The more I allowed myself to feel stuff, the more and more difficult it was to live with him, or even be around him.

I can really relate to continually asking yourself "what is wrong with me?" I have asked myself that question so many times it isn't even funny. 

[Narkiss]

Yes! I think we stop trusting our reality and begin adopting their reality (which isn't real or logical), and that's when we start free-falling... .

[HurtinNW]

This is fascinating to me, and very difficult. Following what Grey Kitty said, I would guess most of what my ex said about me is not true, and most of the mistakes I did make were not discussed, but trying to unravel those is very difficult when part of you keeps saying, "maybe what he said was true."

The reality bending went deeper than I thought. I really go round and round. Like vortex, I stopped trusting my reality. I put it secondary to "saving" the relationship. I also worked hard to stop being so difficult, and yet it didn't seem to help. I felt like I was playing wack-a-mole. The minute I made progress on one of my flaws, something else would happen, and I didn't get credit for changing anything at all.

Looking back, I can see I made great strides in things like handling my anxiety despite the stress of the relationship, practicing self-care, going to therapy, and so forth. But it felt like it didn't matter, the sands would just shift.

The dismissal of me as a person I think is one thing I am coping with. It wasn't just that my character was attacked, but that it felt like my soul didn't even exist in the relationship. Like I wasn't a person to him. It's a hard feeling to describe. Like he was attacking me but I didn't even exist to him, not the person I am inside, deep in my core.

This deep sort of dismissal seemed to happen in so many ways, and ways that are hard to describe. If we were in the same room I often felt like he didn't want me there, in the same space, and not because he "saw" me either, but more like my presence annoyed him. There were so many times I would be around him, sitting next to him in the car, and so forth, and I felt I just wasn't there for him. He had such a discomfort with me being in connection with him in any way. It came out in lots of frustration, persnickety behaviors, and scorn, which I see now were ways he could push people out of his space. But underneath that was a sense that he didn't even see me. Like I didn't even exist.

I do think I stopped trusting my reality. I was so traumatized, and he is so convinced he is right, that I got completely turned around. Narkiss is right, it is free-falling, and my pattern has been to run right back to him in the hope he will stop it.

I've never really thought about projection before. He is convinced he is a very rational, gentle, calm guy who lives too much in his intellect. It wasn't until recently I realized how that is completely untrue. He is a very irrational, angry guy who lives in his unrecognized feelings. It says something about how persuasive he is that he convinced me of the opposite despite years of behaviors. That's how crazy making it was.

What I need to work on is why this relationship caused me to believe things that were patently untrue. That's a big one for me. I have healthy boundaries with my kids, coworkers and friends. But in this relationship I lost myself, and I kept losing myself, and the part of me that worries, "what if he is right?" is the part that leads me back over and over again for the same.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Hurtin', I spent a lot of time ruminating about what went wrong, particularly after my BPDxW foisted all the blame on me for the breakdown in our marriage, yet at the end of the day I came to realize that I would never make sense of it all.  BPD proved far too complex for me.  I'm easygoing, too, and get along well with others.  Yet my Ex had convinced me that I was an awful person.  My suggestion: Don't beat yourself up, and let go of trying to figure it all out, because some aspects of a r/s with a pwBPD will never add up.

LuckyJim

[vortex of confusion]

This is fascinating to me, and very difficult. Following what Grey Kitty said, I would guess most of what my ex said about me is not true, and most of the mistakes I did make were not discussed, but trying to unravel those is very difficult when part of you keeps saying, "maybe what he said was true."

Grey Kitty's point is very relevant to me too. I had the same experience. There would be times when I would deliberately do things to push his buttons. He completely ignored that stuff. The stuff he chose to harp on was stuff that was completely untrue.

The reality bending went deeper than I thought. I really go round and round. Like vortex, I stopped trusting my reality. I put it secondary to "saving" the relationship. I also worked hard to stop being so difficult, and yet it didn't seem to help. I felt like I was playing wack-a-mole. The minute I made progress on one of my flaws, something else would happen, and I didn't get credit for changing anything at all.

"Saving" the relationship became the be all end all for me for a really long time. I had convinced myself that I had to do it for the kids. He had convinced me that I couldn't be a single mom even though I was already doing almost all of the parenting. Instead of being a help in the parenting department, he was more of a hindrance. I love the wack-a-mole analogy! I would try to find problems within myself and within the relationship and would then try to fix myself or the relationship only to have something us pop up. I don't know how many articles I read about how to be a better wife. I was on a discussion forum that focused solely on ways to be a more loving partner. The more stuff I tried, the more it seemed like it made things worse. The more I gave, the more he wanted.

The dismissal of me as a person I think is one thing I am coping with. It wasn't just that my character was attacked, but that it felt like my soul didn't even exist in the relationship. Like I wasn't a person to him. It's a hard feeling to describe. Like he was attacking me but I didn't even exist to him, not the person I am inside, deep in my core.

This deep sort of dismissal seemed to happen in so many ways, and ways that are hard to describe. If we were in the same room I often felt like he didn't want me there, in the same space, and not because he "saw" me either, but more like my presence annoyed him. There were so many times I would be around him, sitting next to him in the car, and so forth, and I felt I just wasn't there for him. He had such a discomfort with me being in connection with him in any way. It came out in lots of frustration, persnickety behaviors, and scorn, which I see now were ways he could push people out of his space. But underneath that was a sense that he didn't even see me. Like I didn't even exist.

That is a very difficult feeling to describe. I think I know what it is. It was like he was dealing with some kind of non-descript person rather than me. I was just a body that could be used at his disposal. If he wanted attention, I was supposed to be available. If I wanted attention, I would get "In a minute" or he would act like I was asking him for the moon. If we went somewhere, he would rush me (and the kids) and the general feeling was that I was some kind of huge inconvenience. My needs and feelings didn't matter. My needs and feelings didn't exist and if they did exist they were ignored or dismissed and his needs and feelings became center stage.

Narkiss is right, it is free-falling, and my pattern has been to run right back to him in the hope he will stop it.

I kept running back to him because he kept saying things like, "You never give me a chance. You haven't given me enough time." It was all in the same vein of "you are too demanding and you want too much". He is in a 12 step program for sex addiction and he liked to use the line, "Oh, well everybody says that you need to give things at least a year before making any kind of decision." I think the first time he said that was in 2013. Before he got into the 12 step program and started that, it felt like there was some other underlying stressor that excused away his behavior whether it was a stressful job or something else. It was difficult to see the reality because of the fact that he was really good at deflecting things.

I've never really thought about projection before. He is convinced he is a very rational, gentle, calm guy who lives too much in his intellect. It wasn't until recently I realized how that is completely untrue. He is a very irrational, angry guy who lives in his unrecognized feelings. It says something about how persuasive he is that he convinced me of the opposite despite years of behaviors. That's how crazy making it was.

This made me laugh out loud for several reasons. First and foremost is the fact that he has two masters degrees and makes sure that everyone knows about it. He is in his 40's. There have been several times over the years when we have had new friends over to the house and he has had to pull out his master's thesis and show it off like, "Ooo, look, I am so smart. I am such an intellectual." And he talked about spirituality and religion as though he was so enlightened. He presented himself as so meek yet underneath all of that he was a ball of anger. His anger would come out when it was completely inappropriate too. He would ignore big stuff that would make even the meekest person angry yet would flip out over silly stuff. And then, he could use the big stuff that he didn't flip out over as proof that he is calm and cool and that I am crazy.

What I need to work on is why this relationship caused me to believe things that were patently untrue. That's a big one for me. I have healthy boundaries with my kids, coworkers and friends. But in this relationship I lost myself, and I kept losing myself, and the part of me that worries, "what if he is right?" is the part that leads me back over and over again for the same.

For me, I think it is helpful to keep revisiting the question of "what if he is right?" The reason that I say that is that every time I revisit it, I peel back another layer of pain and hurt and reality. Of course, I thought I was crazy for wondering if I was crazy.

There are times when I feel like I should be over all of this already. I made the decision to be done yet I keep thinking and rethinking about stuff and wondering if it is healthy and thinking that maybe I am being horrible or something. I think it is okay for me to revisit this stuff. When I was deep in the fog, I couldn't make sense out of anything. The more distance I get on things, the more I am able to look at MY reasons for doing what I did. I am trying to focus on me as I revisit stuff and not focus so much on whether or not he is right. It isn't easy that is for sure.

It is difficult to explain. I feel like I am trying to figure out who "I" am as the dust settles. I am doing that by being around other people and talking to other people. Then, I can compare backwards. I am trying to think of how to explain it. I can admit that I have an ornery streak. He said that about me often. I just have to be careful how I use it. I also know that I am very generous and loving. He said the opposite. Those two things are in opposition. Do I want to believe him or do I want to believe myself, my family, my friends, and my kids? It is a process of analyzing things from a place where I am not isolated and asking myself, "Why the heck does his opinion matter? Why does his opinion carry more weight than the weight of people that have proven time and time again to have a much better grip on reality than him?"

[Narkiss]

Hurtin: I think you have a good sense of reality. And I think you are right. You didn't really exist for him. Probably no one really does outside of himself. Not of us do. But that doesn't mean we don't or that we don't matter. It just means that there is something really wrong with them. Mine saw himself as someone who just wanted to make others happy. He would smile at waitresses and look store clerks in the eye. I'm sure there is huge swathes of time when he just forgot I existed. When he remembered, he saw me as playing a supporting role in the central drama of his life -- the love interest, for example, or the good mother, or the adoring groupie. (and would kill me off when I didn't fit in with his plot). What we have to figure out is why these relationships meant so much to us that we would lose ourselves rather than let them go. Does that make sense?

[HurtinNW]

I want to say thanks for these amazing replies.

Narkiss, yes! Why do we sacrifice so much of ourselves rather than let the relationship go? This is a big one for me, and complicated. Most the reasons for me have nothing do with him. Like my age and worrying I will never find love. Like my own history. Like my own fears.

Vortex, I am also trying to figure out who "I" am outside this relationship. Who is the "I" that I was before, and who is the "I" that will come out the other side?

I am thinking a lot about my sense of self. Growing up abused, I didn't have self worth. But I did have the core of a survivor. I fought to survive and because of that I did even as most my family is dead, suicide, or in prison. But it is not enough just to have an essence of self. I want to have more.

Lucky Jim, thank you and I believe you may be right. How do we make sense of crazy? Of mental illness? We don't if we try to understand it by their rules. But I do hope to understand my role in it, which I am sure you agree. He never held me hostage. That's the part I want to figure.

I saw my therapist today, will try to post on that because she had some great thoughts.

[Lucky Jim]

I do hope to understand my role in it, which I am sure you agree. He never held me hostage. That's the part I want to figure.

Agree, Hurtin', that's your task.  In my view, the inquiry involves figuring out why you got involved with a pwBPD in the first place, and why you stayed.  The answers will provide keys to your recovery, in my experience.

LuckyJim