it has reached a head...I may have to lay all cards on table face up

[byfaith]

and see what happens. I know it will get worse before it gets better

Gray kitty asked me this question the other day

I'm wondering... .have you been recently living in the fog, trying to make things work, putting up with abuse, and stuffing your own feelings as things got worse and worse?

'Cuz there is a good chance you weren't even letting yourself feel how bad things have gotten for quite a while now. Does this sound right?

I went to MC by myself again last night. My wife sent a text to the MC and told him she wasn't coming because she was dealing with depression caused by me.

All of the events in the last 6 days according to my wife are my fault ( this is what she told me)

4 1/2 years of me keeping my mouth shut for the most part is my fault ( I have not admitted this to anyone yet) There are times I would voice my displeasure with something that she had done or her behavior and then she would go back to that same behavior soon after that.

How do you go about trying to let someone know that their accumulated behavior over the course of 4 plus years has caused what I am feeling toward them?

lets take one issue... .No sex... no seeing my wife naked nothing below the belt, no seemingly interest on her part as far as arousal. OK she tells me she wants to get there and she has done somethings with me that MAYBE indicate that. BUT she says the "reason" I can't touch her here or there and if I do I get reprimanded. OK so if the weight is the issue and I see her doing nothing about her weight where does that leave me?

I get resentful feelings. I see her eating at night getting depressed and eating out of depression. She talks about how she eats better but she doesn't. Then I hear the anti depressants kill her sex drive. OK do I see her trying to re tool the anti depressants with her doctor? NO 

From what I see its all talk and distractions.  It's that way with almost everything in her life. I think she may try then she gives up.  So I am supposed to talk about what bothers me about her? It never works even if she asks me to talk about it.   

[Akita]

That sounds similar to my wife.  She is very touchy about well being touched.  She just feels used and worthless.  She feels like there is too much focus on the sexual aspect of the relationship all the time.  I try to not be sexual.  I can cuddle her for hours and if I place my hand on one of her sexual zones it ruins all the cuddling for her and she feels like I was only cuddling her so I could touch her sexually.  She ends up saying everything I do is just so I can have sex with her.  She really struggles with feeling like I love her... .her soul her mind.  She talks about how I just want her body and her money.  I am very sexual and I do want her body.  How do you convince them you love their souls and minds too?

[byfaith]

How do you convince them you love their souls and minds too?

I don't think we can. What happens in my situation is that something can come up out of the blue and it will crush her whole world and she will believe that I have turned on her, therefore she is not convinced that I love her as a person.

Do you have a sexless marriage? or is just severely limited? 

[Grey Kitty]

You've got two things to deal with here:

1. Problems in your marriage. (You do involve your wife in resolving these)

2. Your resentment about these problems. (This is yours, and yours alone to deal with. Keep it away from your wife)

4 1/2 years of me keeping my mouth shut for the most part is my fault ( I have not admitted this to anyone yet) There are times I would voice my displeasure with something that she had done or her behavior and then she would go back to that same behavior soon after that.

How do you go about trying to let someone know that their accumulated behavior over the course of 4 plus years has caused what I am feeling toward them?

Here are your choices:

1. Stuff all your feelings.

[You know this drill, and are at the end of your rope]

2. Ask her to change or demand that she change.

[You've tried that too, and it doesn't work either!]

"Putting it all out on the table" isn't going to change her.

3. End your marriage.

[You are reluctant to take this step, at least now.]

4. Change your behavior to protect yourself from inside your marriage.

You can do this pretty effectively around her blaming you for all her problems, and any other verbal/emotional abuse. Our tools like taking time-outs and enforcing boundaries are great for that.

She is blaming you for all the problems in your marriage, especially HER issues. That hurts terribly if you believe her, even a little bit. You are in the fog and do believe her some.

As an example, if she accused you of being a cyborg sent back from the future to destroy her (sorta like the plot of Terminator), you would be confused... .but probably not terribly distraught, because you KNOW that this isn't true. You probably wouldn't even feel too much need to correct her or change her mind, it wouldn't be too hard to accept that she's just kinda nuts and deluded if she believes that.

When you get a better grip on your own reality, you will find that baseless accusations on her part don't bother you nearly as much, and you can cope with them a LOT more easily.



Unfortunately, her inability to enjoy sex with you just isn't something you can address this way. She has a LOT of issues around sex that have been covered in other topics here, and they just aren't going to go away quickly if at all.

You need to accept her for who she is. If you stay in a relationship with her for another year, your sex life with her will be very limited and unsatisfying for that year. I'm not saying it will never get better, just that I'm having trouble imagining her making much progress faster than that.

You also need to accept you for who you are. If you cannot handle another year like that, with the possibility of a few more years on the horizon, you cannot handle staying in this marriage. It doesn't make you a bad person to end a marriage because you are sexually incompatible, any more than it would make you a bad person to end a marriage because the two of you are unable to agree about whether to have children, etc.

This is a very tough question to ask yourself... .and you need to know yourself before you talk to her about it.   Good luck sorting through it.

Consider if you want to work on improving other areas in your marriage that are more achievable while you try to sort it out.

[byfaith]

Ok someone tell me if I am off base here.

I have printed something " Here are signs you have not set personal boundaries"

• Saying no when you mean yes or yes when you mean no

• Feeling guilty when you do say no

• Not speaking up when you have something to say

• not calling out someone who mistreats you

• adopting another persons beliefs or ideas so you are accepted

• acting against your integrity or values in order to please

• Accepting physical touch or sex when you don't want it

• Allowing yourself to be interrupted or distracted to accommodate another person's immediate wants or needs

• Giving too much to be perceived as useful

• becoming overly involved in someone's problems or difficulties

• allowing people to say things to you or in front of you that make you uncomfortable

• not defining and communicating your emotional needs in your closest relationships

Should I use this as a discussion springboard with my wife? I will let her know that I have failed at setting these boundaries? It may even "help" her see some things about herself (right?)

I am trying to come at it from an angle that I am not just coming out and blaming her but I am assuming some responsibility also in the relationship.

I have failed to some degree in all of these points, some more than others and to be honest I am mad at myself

OK FF  go easy on me

[byfaith]

GK,

thanks for that advice, I posted all of those points while you were responding.

I have a lot of tough decisions

[Grey Kitty]

  First off that is an excellent list. I recommend you work on it!

Should I use this as a discussion springboard with my wife? I will let her know that I have failed at setting these boundaries? It may even "help" her see some things about herself (right?)

NO, don't talk to her about it, or even share it with her. There are two sides to "poor boundaries"

Your wife's poor boundaries. Those are hers to fix, and you cannot fix them for her. [Do you see how trying to fix her poor boundaries represents poor boundaries on your part?]

Your own poor boundaries. Those are yours to fix. Do it.

Start now. Good boundaries means that you don't need either your wife's approval or her assistance to fix YOUR boundaries. In fact you have a long history of enmeshment (mutually poor boundaries) with your wife. So involving her in fixing it is actually the worst thing you could do!

Anyhow... .that list is very long, and kinda exhaustive. You aren't going to fix it in an hour or a day.

Pick one thing from the list. One that seems important to you or most important. And let us help you work on fixing it in yourself.

[Akita]

Our marriage is limited in my view.  She agreed to twice weekly. Eight times a month.  I would like something every day.  In my opinion she doesn't keep to her word about the amount.  She usually just wants sex when she might get pregnant, again my opinion.  She disagrees with these statements.  She also only wants sex.  No foreplay no making out just sex.  I don't know if any of this will be of any help.

[byfaith]

Right now my wife is being very distant with me. She will probably continue this until I "admit" that the state we/she is in is my fault. I will not admit to fault.

How can I use validation without admitting fault

This is her stance.

YOU are the reason we can't even make it to see MC without a major blow up. YOU could've handled your "problem" with me in the right way. It just keeps happening, we go a few days and you just have to come up with another "problem" with me. The only reason we've gone this long and not had a fight is because I've been out of town.  I came back with a positive attitude about the mountains and camping and exercising blah blah blah and you just had to shoot it down didn't you. You wait until I've had a hard stressful day the day before and try to have a good day with you and (her son) yesterday and then turn your back on me last night in the bed. So, where in this equation have I done anything to deserve crap from you?

She keeps saying that if I would come and talk to her the right way, there is no right way   she says we have discussed this before a million times

she just keeps bringing up the fact that I turned my back on her in the bed and did not speak to her or say goodnight.

and that all I did was say I was sorry the next day. As we all know apologies do not work with pwBPD often.  I don't want to cave man!

She also keeps saying that I am trying to find a way to divorce her. I let her know that I am not doing that.  

[byfaith]

akita,

I was just curious what you may be dealing with. I hope your situation changes for the better.

BF

[Grey Kitty]

Our marriage is limited in my view.  She agreed to twice weekly. Eight times a month.  I would like something every day.  In my opinion she doesn't keep to her word about the amount.  She usually just wants sex when she might get pregnant, again my opinion.  She disagrees with these statements.  She also only wants sex.  No foreplay no making out just sex.  I don't know if any of this will be of any help.

This combination you describe has me very concerned, Akita... .here's how I see it:

You and your wife want very different types and amounts of sex.

We live in a culture that tends to shame anybody who wants more sex (especially female, but also male), calling that person deviant, and reward anybody (especially female) who wants less sex.

I don't agree with that cultural judgement--I think it is reasonable and natural for each person to want as much sex as they want, and there is no reason this should be the same for everybody. Just like it is natural that some people love broccoli, some hate it, and some are in between.

However, a marriage where the two partners aren't sexually compatible isn't very likely to crash and burn. Some differences can be negotiated or accommodated, like how often. Others (like no foreplay, for example) seem like festering sores that will just get worse and worse and worse and worse over time.

Add that to this one:

She usually just wants sex when she might get pregnant

First off, hormonal changes around ovulation are a real thing. She likely does want sex more then than other times in her cycle, and I don't see this possibility as concerning.

However if she isn't very interested in sex (with you, as you want to have sex with her, anyways) but wants to get pregnant and have a baby, that's a HUGE concern for your marriage in my eyes.

1. Sex drive often plummets during pregnancy, after childbirth, and while nursing (although it can increase as well). Even for women who did like and want sex as much or more than their partner prior. This is likely to get worse for you, at least temporarily.

2. If she primarily wants sex to get pregnant, once she has as many babies as she wants, even after all those above issues are long gone, her disinterest in sex could be expected to increase.

Lastly... .*IF* your marriage is going to end because of sexual incompatibility between you and your wife... .it is a lot cleaner to do it without a custody battle over the child.

Are you SURE you want to do this? A successful pregnancy is a real game changer, for better or for worse, and it seldom improves a troubled marriage.

[Grey Kitty]

Right now my wife is being very distant with me. She will probably continue this until I "admit" that the state we/she is in is my fault. I will not admit to fault.

When validating, you don't want to validate the invalid.

"It is all byfaith's fault" isn't valid, and you don't want to validate that.

My first suggestion is that you need to be prepared to enforce a boundary about that:

"I won't discuss with you how everything is all my fault."

By enforce that boundary, I don't mean that you need to TELL her this. That is giving her a rule, and (in effect) challenging her to break it, which she will do. I mean by enforce that boundary, ending the conversation and not participating in it anymore when it has gone to that point.

When your attempt to talk to her and/or validate her turns into that kind of thing, you need to take a time out and exit the conversation. So be ready to do that before you start.

I looked at your description of what she is "saying" and honestly, I couldn't find anything she directly stated in there that is valid. All of it is either that you are totally in the wrong... .or that she knows what you are thinking, and that what you are thinking is inexcusable.

What is valid, and could be validated is how she is feeling. Try something like this:

"You sound angry" or "You sound hurt". Preferably early in the conversation.

[Akita]

I feel the festering wound.  I don't feel like she wants me.  She tells me she does but her actions to me don't show that.  She pulls away a lot and avoids me sometimes.  She gets upset and sleeps on the floor or tries to sleep in the closet.  I won't let her sleep in the closet.  I bother her until she gives up and goes somewhere else.  She has to get up earlier than me so she gets frustrated by me keeping her awake and moves somewhere else.  She is very sensitive to how things feel and smell.  I have to kiss her in a certain way unless she is really in the mood.  I can't sleep with my hand on her breast or butt because it makes her feel like I am just holding the parts of her that matter.  She often feels worthless especially after sex.  She wants so badly to feel loved during and after sex but just can't for some reason.

We already have one baby.  She wants a second child.  We do occasionally have sex not during her ovulation and she makes sure she points that out when it happens.  I do think we can compromise on the amount.  She is trying to work on the foreplay.  She just gets overstimulated and her skin actually starts to hurt... .and I mean any skin... .arm skin leg skin her back if I'm massaging it will actually start to ache from being touched.  I just don't know what to do.

[formflier]

OK FF  go easy on me

Nope, I'm standing on top of the turnbuckle, and I am going to come down on you with a "Greg the Hammer Valentine" elbow like no other,

Extra credit for those that can identify what I am talking about!

Do not "admit" anything. 

When she starts blaming, excuse yourself.  Your ears, your choice of what goes in them.

Let her know you are ready to work on solutions, but blame is off the table.

Blame turns into a battle of wills, a non is not going to win that.

Grey, no laughing at me,    

Believe me, I have tried to win it and they will "shift" ever so slightly into other dysfunction.  With all the force you have applied to win the battle, you will splat on your face.  Trust me,

Focus less on your wife and more on you.  You need to make decisions that you can stick by, soon.  You sound ready to do that but we need to focus you on doing that right.

FF

[byfaith]

I dont't want to sound like I need my hand held through this whole thing. I can predict things.

So if I do validate her feelings of anger or hurt she will come back with " and you are the cause" so what I am thinking is respond with "well those are your feelings and you are allowed to feel that" and end my part of the discussion

she is a master at this... .better than my father ever was.

I told our MC it's like taking martial arts to learn how to defend yourself and then when you get into a situation and then you forget everything you learned.

[byfaith]

I knew you would show no mercy!

I believe I have reached a point to where I think I can handle her hatred or strong dislike for me, it doesn't feel good but if I can manage my own emotions and do what I need to do I think I will be ok.

I begin thinking way ahead of the game of what will she do if I do THIS or THAT... .She could possibly do some erratic crap leaving me in a bad position.

Who knows she may have more respect for me in the long run and I will respect myself more for having stood my ground. Regardless the outcome.

[Notwendy]

Akita- it's ok for people to want what they want but daily is overwhelming for some people. It's interesting that one person might be happy with twice a week and someone else not. However it isn't easy to be the one for whom your spouse feels is not enough. That can also be triggering for someone with BPD who already feels inadequate.

As someone who has been a young mother and who has to get up early in the am- I am not sure I could keep up with you. I don't know what the compromise is.  However to her you it may feel like that's all you want if your wishes exceed what she feels she can do.

[Grey Kitty]

So if I do validate her feelings of anger or hurt she will come back with " and you are the cause" so what I am thinking is respond with "well those are your feelings and you are allowed to feel that" and end my part of the discussion

Well, first off, "angry" is a feeling, and is valid, and worth validating.

"byfaith caused the anger" isn't a feeling, it is an idea or a thought... .and it isn't valid, and you shouldn't validate it, or capitulate to it.

And that response is why I said you should be ready to end the discussion. Not end your part of the discussion. Sitting there and listening or staring blankly while she goes on and on and on about how it is your fault isn't a healthy response. Don't do it.

Back to the basics of validation:

Validation is NOT a magical tool to end arguments; it fails for that more often than it succeeds. Boundary enforcement is a 100% effective tool to end augments. (Do you need help on how to do this? Please ask if you do--we've got it for you!)

Validation is very effective at building positive relationships and trust. It is 10X as easy to use about things that are positive, and especially things that aren't related to you at all, than the way you are trying to use it.

The way to use validation is to keep an eye out for what your wife is feeling or what is going on with her, and you can confirm that you noticed, or that you care and are interested in what is going on with her.

A steady dose of validation will turn the temperature way down and increase trust.

[byfaith]

Boundary enforcement is a 100% effective tool to end arguments. (Do you need help on how to do this? Please ask if you do--we've got it for you!)

Im sure I will. I will be on my mobile rest of weekend, harder to use than my comp.

Tell me is this validation? I just texted her

ME: hope you are feeling better

HER: NO

ME: do you need me to get you anything?

HER: ( a text with a couple of food items) I'll be needing to eat something. 2 lg cans.  (no thank you, nothing)

was asking to get her something too much? I am entering into new territory with MY behavior (be patient with me)

just as a note; she has been non functional all week. In the bed or doing nothing. Depression

[Grey Kitty]

What you did was pretty good--it showed that you are somewhat concerned, and also that you are listening to what she is saying.

BTW, I generally don't suggest doing heavy conversations or heavy validation by text message. You show your sincerity a lot with non-verbal cues, and those are completely lost in text messages. OTOH, grocery lists by text message work very well!

Here is something you can try:



Power of Asking Validation Questions

As for ending arguments... .if you haven't seen this one, it might help you a lot:

How to take a time out

And lastly... .next time you find yourself in an argument where everything "went wrong", once you get out of it... .find a quiet place... .and post on one of these forums how it went, starting well before anything went south... .and start a discussion about how you can do it differently next time.

[formflier]

 

Hoping to lighten the mood, and make a point. 

https://youtu.be/Jpropo0WGn0


OK, how does this apply?  We need to train you up to be a serious "officer" and not get distracted by a pwBPD calling you out. 


And when the serious FOG gets in play, (daisy), don't wreck your car.

Listen, the serious point of all of this is "don't play their game".  They will beat you every time.  Be emotionally healthy, let them be what they will be

FF