Does having the disorder make them less culpable?

[Nuitari]

My brain tells me I should feel sorry for my ex. She has no sense of self-worth. She'll go through life never being happy or capable of loving anyone, let alone herself. So I should pity her, right? On some level, I guess I do. But I can't get past my own pain to fully appreciate hers. Most days I outright hate her for everything she's done, and I constantly have to remind myself that she has a disorder and that she can't help her condition, but it isn't enough to dispel the anger and hate that I feel. So my question is, how much of a right do we have to be angry? Does their selfish and cruel actions make them terrible people? Or does the BPD excuse it?

Everything my ex did, all the lies and manipulations, were very methodical. She was very conscious of what she was doing. I don't doubt that anymore. She was using me and she knew it. Doesn't this alone make her a horrible person? I've often heard it said that BPD sufferers lack empathy and emotional maturity, but I'm not sure I buy this. They couldn't be the master manipulators that they are without those things. My ex had to have empathy in order to make me feel and think the way she wanted me to. She was a pro at it. She was so skilled at it that its hard for me to believe she was manipulating me on an unconscious level. Was anything I saw in her genuine? Or was all intentional lies?

[GreenEyedMonster]

The behavior you are describing -- intentional manipulation -- is probably more consistent with NPD or AsPD than with BPD.  Is she diagnosed?  If not, and you are certain that she did these things to you knowingly, I'd start to question whether BPD is the right label.  After all, we are not professionals, and we can only make educated guesses to help our own healing.  Having a conscious plan to hurt another person, ignoring the consequences to that other person, is VERY antisocial.  A person with BPD, on the other hand, will often set out into a new relationship believing that this new person is THE ONE and will solve all of the problems in his/her life, only to find out that because of the trauma they carry along, the problems follow them.  There is nothing in the diagnostic criteria for BPD that includes conscious scheming to hurt other people.  They, too, believe that the replacement will fix everything.

My ex is heavy on NPD traits but I do not think that he set out with a conscious plan to hurt me, but I do think he believes that he is entitled to a successful relationship, and gets angry when the universe doesn't simply deliver this to him.  Is his entitlement conscious?  Where does it come from?  I would argue that it doesn't really matter.

I think far too many people on this board get hung up on the ideas of justice and revenge.  It is like we want to put our exes on trial and see if they will get off on the insanity defense.  You are not, in your own life, obligated to accept behavior in a partner that hurts you.  This person's motives have nothing to do with it.  If this individual has the capacity to hurt you repeatedly and shows no *visible* remorse, then whether or not invisible remorse exists is sort of beside the point.  You don't owe it to this individual to save her or to let her in your life, regardless of the nature of her limitations.  Your CLOSURE in this situation is that you are making a decision for YOU to stay away from someone who hurts you. 

[sweet tooth]

My brain tells me I should feel sorry for my ex. She has no sense of self-worth. She'll go through life never being happy or capable of loving anyone, let alone herself. So I should pity her, right? On some level, I guess I do. But I can't get past my own pain to fully appreciate hers. Most days I outright hate her for everything she's done, and I constantly have to remind myself that she has a disorder and that she can't help her condition, but it isn't enough to dispel the anger and hate that I feel. So my question is, how much of a right do we have to be angry? Does their selfish and cruel actions make them terrible people? Or does the BPD excuse it?

Everything my ex did, all the lies and manipulations, were very methodical. She was very conscious of what she was doing. I don't doubt that anymore. She was using me and she knew it. Doesn't this alone make her a horrible person? I've often heard it said that BPD sufferers lack empathy and emotional maturity, but I'm not sure I buy this. They couldn't be the master manipulators that they are without those things. My ex had to have empathy in order to make me feel and think the way she wanted me to. She was a pro at it. She was so skilled at it that its hard for me to believe she was manipulating me on an unconscious level. Was anything I saw in her genuine? Or was all intentional lies?

I almost wish my ex intentionally hurt me.  It would be much easier for me to recover from that. I could just label her "evil," a "b****," etc. She's none of those things, however. I think that what you describe is more of a sociopath than BPD. 

[Ab123]

Part of healing for me was accepting that I can't be angry at my ex. I really think he did the best he could. It does make detaching harder. But, it became easier once I realized that trying to be angry or negative about him made me sad and feel guilty. I CANNOT let myself think that my new bf is "better," or I start to feel horrible, like I would if I abandoned my ex to "trade up."  (I met my now bf after my ex told me to "move on" and totally ghosted on me. He reappeared later, right after my bf and I agreed to be exclusive. .)  I have to stay clear in my mind:  "my ex hurt me repeatedly. I didn't break him, I can't fix him. Going back to him would be like touching a hot stove."  If I try to make it easier by distorting it, I slide backwards.

[balletomane]

Having the disorder makes them less culpable. It doesn't make them less responsible. Making that distinction helped me. My ex lives in such a state of emotional chaos that it must be like being trapped in a tumble dryer on full spin, and while that's not his fault - like most people with BPD, he had a chaotic and traumatic upbringing which meant he never learned the skills he needs to form healthy relationships - it's still his responsibility to learn to cope with his problems. Not mine. My responsibility was to protect myself from further damage. On the flipside, this means that he can't be held responsible for how I react to him and his behaviour. I have a friend who is in AA and she is always using a phrase she learned there - "You can only take care of your side of the street" - so this is what I'm trying to do.

[Isa_lala]

Having the disorder makes them less culpable. It doesn't make them less responsible. Making that distinction helped me. My ex lives in such a state of emotional chaos that it must be like being trapped in a tumble dryer on full spin, and while that's not his fault - like most people with BPD, he had a chaotic and traumatic upbringing which meant he never learned the skills he needs to form healthy relationships - it's still his responsibility to learn to cope with his problems. Not mine. My responsibility was to protect myself from further damage. On the flipside, this means that he can't be held responsible for how I react to him and his behaviour. I have a friend who is in AA and she is always using a phrase she learned there - "You can only take care of your side of the street" - so this is what I'm trying to do.

This seems so true for me! I am not angry either at my ex. He did what he could with the tools he had in hands... What I find ridiculous tho is that when I left, he started to see a T right away which he had never done when we were together even if he knew he had to seek help and that I had asked him many times to do so... .He just stretched the elastic to the maximum hoping he could prevent himself to see a T... .

But that is his "side of the street" and I now need to take care of mine... .

[GreenEyedMonster]

The only thing that makes me angry about my ex is that he ignores the consequences of his own behavior and blames them on others.  If he would come around and take more responsibility, he might be able to get the help he needs.  I want him to hit bottom, not out of some sadistic desire to see him suffer, but because I want him to finally see the light.  Perhaps the universe will oblige, but if not, it's really none of my business.

[once removed]

hi nuitari  

good questions! my two cents:

My brain tells me I should feel sorry for my ex.

thats okay. it sounds like your feelings are at odds with your logic? both can be right.

She has no sense of self-worth. She'll go through life never being happy or capable of loving anyone, let alone herself. So I should pity her, right?

i think pity is different than compassion. i like to think i have compassion for all human suffering and that includes my ex. i dont pity her. thats me though, and pity vs compassion would be semantics to some.

But I can't get past my own pain to fully appreciate hers.

thats a nice goal, but they need not compete. theres a difference between wallowing in your pain, and acknowledging and respecting it, tending to it, and healing from it. her pain isnt your priority, you are (yours is). you may get past your own pain and fully appreciate hers, when youre good and ready. you dont need to force it. i think we all approach, lets call it the "compassion stage" at different paces and order. its like the stages of grief, in that theyre a good map, but they apply uniquely to each person.

Most days I outright hate her for everything she's done, and I constantly have to remind myself that she has a disorder and that she can't help her condition, but it isn't enough to dispel the anger and hate that I feel.

though she did not choose or ask for her condition, she can help it (she is the only one who can) - that may be a unique challenge for her, but changing oneself is never easy, for anyone.

i do think that it is generally a good exercise to temper your anger with the acceptance that our exes are (presumably) mentally ill, and perhaps more importantly, radical acceptance in general. i believe in forgiveness, i believe in accepting that human beings are imperfect, and will hurt each other. i dont think any of this equates over night, for many it may take years or even a life time, something else thats unique to each individual. and none of it can be forced. personally i dont forgive my ex because she has a disorder... .i forgive her because shes a human being, and she suffers, and understanding her suffering did help me to forgive.

So my question is, how much of a right do we have to be angry?

a person has every right to be angry. we shouldnt absolve ourselves of personal responsibility, but again, the two need not compete. even if you knowingly walk right into a bad situation and theres a bad outcome, you dont forfeit your right to feel.

Does their selfish and cruel actions make them terrible people?

i believe people are more complex than "terrible" or "good" people.

Or does the BPD excuse it?

BPD helps us to understand actions, and depersonalize them. it is not an excuse.

Everything my ex did, all the lies and manipulations, were very methodical. She was very conscious of what she was doing. I don't doubt that anymore. She was using me and she knew it. Doesn't this alone make her a horrible person? I've often heard it said that BPD sufferers lack empathy and emotional maturity, but I'm not sure I buy this. They couldn't be the master manipulators that they are without those things. My ex had to have empathy in order to make me feel and think the way she wanted me to. She was a pro at it. She was so skilled at it that its hard for me to believe she was manipulating me on an unconscious level. Was anything I saw in her genuine? Or was all intentional lies?

i cant speak for your ex. it would be dehumanizing for me to say that a person with BPD is incapable of a calculated lie or manipulation. i can assure you my ex knowingly lied to me and admitted it later. why? i can assure you neither her nor i know or knew the answer. when we debate or discuss these matters, it is important to keep in mind that generally speaking, people with BPD are impulsive, and act impulsively, often based on feeling (which feels like fact at the time, but both are subject to change). its about survival and emotional need. and those things may change rapidly as well.

BPD is not an absence of empathy, though to varying degrees, person to person, it may be impaired. in general, pwBPD "feel too much", and to an extent that another persons needs and feelings are very difficult to acknowledge. we can all relate to this: if we are deep in grief, do we usually want to hear about someone elses problems? people with BPD do lack emotional maturity, but that is hardly unique to BPD. ive often quoted before, "emotional immaturity in both parties is a hallmark of a "BPD relationship"". you do not need emotional maturity to manipulate anyone. people that manipulate others are emotionally immature - its an emotionally immature way to get ones needs met. people with BPD have had their entire lives to develop deeply ingrained defense mechanisms, and interpret perceived wrongdoing as validation of their worldview.

again, i cant speak for your ex, but was anything you saw in her genuine? probably, though i guess it depends on what youre referring to and your definition of genuine. her personality is malleable. her love for you and the words she expressed were very real to both of you in the moment (does that make them genuine?). parts of what you saw in her may have been what you projected onto her.

was it all intentional lies? probably not. i wont speak for your ex, but that would generally be at odds with BPD psychopatholgy.

this is all complex stuff, i know, and these are good, useful questions youre asking. there are answers to some, but so many of our answers to our personal questions are something we will decide on in time, as we work through the pain, hurt, anger, denial, whatever stage we are in.

[Wanna Move On]

No.

[Wanna Move On]

No.

[Nuitari]

I should probably go into more detail about what I'm calling "conscious manipulation." This requires a backstory, so I'll try to keep this brief. In the beginning of the relationship, it seemed like I was her whole world. She told me how she's never allowed herself to love anyone before, but thought she could love me. She was married, by the way. Her husband was in the military, and had been away for several months. She later confided in me that she felt abandoned, so I guess I was his "replacement." At any rate, she was planning to leave him, and we spent a lot of time talking about our future together. She seemed very sincere about it sometimes, but other times insinuating that all she wanted was to "have fun" while her husband was away. She was clearly conflicted about whether she wanted to be with me or the husband. I do know for a fact that on one occasion she told the husband she was leaving, so there had to be some sincerity.

Here's where it turns into a horror story. The husband returns, and she's still telling me she loves me and wants to leave him. She seemed very sincere, but at some point I think she became insincere. Her whole attitude changed. She would still tell me she loved me and wanted to be with me, but it felt like she was saying it out of obligation. The emotion wasn't there anymore. She finally told me that she can't leave her husband, even though she wanted to. At this point I just wanted closure. I didn't want to see her anymore, but she insisted on calling me every other day and visiting me at work. It was like we were still in a relationship. She said she couldn't let me go. Whenever I was about to end things, she would initiate sex. I think she could sense what was coming and was using sex to discourage me from ending it. You can't exactly tell someone you never want to see them again right after having sex with them, and being weak, I couldn't turn down the sex. The thought of her sleeping with her husband, or any other man, is the most painful thought I've ever had to endure. That's the reason I didn't want to see her anymore. But she assured me that things were so bad between her and the husband that they didn't even sleep in the same room, and l bought it. She later admitted that she had been sleeping with him. I know this sounds ridiculous, me being the "other guy," but I felt betrayed. I've never been more hurt in my life. I also have reason to suspect that she was having threesomes with her husband and his female co-worker. Normally I would consider it none of my business, but what I find cruel is how she could do these things while not letting me move on. Telling me to my face that she loved me, letting me go on thinking that everything was terrible between her and the husband, and then doing who-knows-what with him an hour later is unforgiving and inhuman. Finding these things out has been traumatic. I loved her, and I feel used. She was a part-time student, and was always asking me to help her with school, proof-reading papers, etc. In hindsight, I think this may be one of the reasons why she wanted to keep me around. What infurates me is how she couldn't see past her own needs and consider what she was doing to me.

The reason I call these manipulations "conscious" is because at times, she'd apologize for her actions, calling herself a "user," and that she never meant to hurt me. Her apologies seemed sincere, but this pattern of behavior would repeat itself over and over. At the beginning of the relationship, I remember that she kept telling me that I deserved better. I think now that she was trying to warn me. She seems very aware of her problems, but unwilling or incapable of changing her behavior.

What started out as a seemingly meaningful and genuine relationship somehow turned into a very perverse one. In the beginning, she used to look at me like I was her whole world. But by the end, I was just an object to her, and I'm left wondering if any of it was real. She told me at the end of the relationship that she isn't capable of loving someone, so why all the "I love you" stuff at the beginning? Did she mean it or does she say those same things to every guy she seduces? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Nuitari]

.

[Nuitari]

double post. sorry

[Lonely_Astro]

I should probably go into more detail about what I'm calling "conscious manipulation." This requires a backstory, so I'll try to keep this brief. In the beginning of the relationship, it seemed like I was her whole world. She told me how she's never allowed herself to love anyone before, but thought she could love me. She was married, by the way. Her husband was in the military, and had been away for several months. She later confided in me that she felt abandoned, so I guess I was his "replacement." At any rate, she was planning to leave him, and we spent a lot of time talking about our future together. She seemed very sincere about it sometimes, but other times insinuating that all she wanted was to "have fun" while her husband was away. She was clearly conflicted about whether she wanted to be with me or the husband. I do know for a fact that on one occasion she told the husband she was leaving, so there had to be some sincerity.

Here's where it turns into a horror story. The husband returns, and she's still telling me she loves me and wants to leave him. She seemed very sincere, but at some point I think she became insincere. Her whole attitude changed. She would still tell me she loved me and wanted to be with me, but it felt like she was saying it out of obligation. The emotion wasn't there anymore. She finally told me that she can't leave her husband, even though she wanted to. At this point I just wanted closure. I didn't want to see her anymore, but she insisted on calling me every other day and visiting me at work. It was like we were still in a relationship. She said she couldn't let me go. Whenever I was about to end things, she would initiate sex. I think she could sense what was coming and was using sex to discourage me from ending it. You can't exactly tell someone you never want to see them again right after having sex with them, and being weak, I couldn't turn down the sex. The thought of her sleeping with her husband, or any other man, is the most painful thought I've ever had to endure. That's the reason I didn't want to see her anymore. But she assured me that things were so bad between her and the husband that they didn't even sleep in the same room, and l bought it. She later admitted that she had been sleeping with him. I know this sounds ridiculous, me being the "other guy," but I felt betrayed. I've never been more hurt in my life. I also have reason to suspect that she was having threesomes with her husband and his female co-worker. Normally I would consider it none of my business, but what I find cruel is how she could do these things while not letting me move on. Telling me to my face that she loved me, letting me go on thinking that everything was terrible between her and the husband, and then doing who-knows-what with him an hour later is unforgiving and inhuman. Finding these things out has been traumatic. I loved her, and I feel used. She was a part-time student, and was always asking me to help her with school, proof-reading papers, etc. In hindsight, I think this may be one of the reasons why she wanted to keep me around. What infurates me is how she couldn't see past her own needs and consider what she was doing to me.

The reason I call these manipulations "conscious" is because at times, she'd apologize for her actions, calling herself a "user," and that she never meant to hurt me. Her apologies seemed sincere, but this pattern of behavior would repeat itself over and over. At the beginning of the relationship, I remember that she kept telling me that I deserved better. I think now that she was trying to warn me. She seems very aware of her problems, but unwilling or incapable of changing her behavior.

What started out as a seemingly meaningful and genuine relationship somehow turned into a very perverse one. In the beginning, she used to look at me like I was her whole world. But by the end, I was just an object to her, and I'm left wondering if any of it was real. She told me at the end of the relationship that she isn't capable of loving someone, so why all the "I love you" stuff at the beginning? Did she mean it or does she say those same things to every guy she seduces? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Was it real?  Yes.  It was all real, right up until the moment it wasn't.  BPDs lack the ability to think long term or think about the long term consequences of their actions.  Just like an alcoholic says "this'll be my last drink" and it's not, BPDs say "this is the love of my life and my last relationship", but it's not. 

With that said, there are those that have Narc traits or even antisocial (aka sociopath) traits.  These are the types that will usually manipulate on purpose.  These types are generally considered by most nons as the 'most dangerous and difficult' of the group because of their complete lack of empathy.  To those traits, people are objects to be used and nothing more.  A BPD is capable of empathy whereas a Narc/AS isn't.  My ex is dBPD but shows heavy Narc traits.  She lies and manipulates simply because she can.  She treats people like objects.  I've watched her do it since we have ended.  She used me, too.  But that's a tale for another time.

What's important is that you not focus on "was it real?"   It was real to YOU and you are what matters here.  You have to grieve the loss of a dream.  Of a person you loved.  That's tough stuff.  I've been there twice.  It's difficult. 

Explore how you feel and why you feel that way.  In time, with NC, you'll see things in a much better light.  Trust us. Keep posting.

[Nuitari]

BPD helps us to understand actions, and depersonalize them. it is not an excuse.

This is my biggest obstacle. I'm learning as much as I can, but I still can't depersonalize. Its hard to believe I ever will. Here's a great example. Someone in another thread said the following... .

"If you're not physically close to them they have even more difficulty showing empathy. If you're not there it's difficult for them to imagine/remember/feel you are an actual real person. And sometimes they completely forget about you if you aren't physically close. Out of sight out of mind.

I can understand that this is a product of the disorder, but it doesn't dispel my anger at the thought of my ex sleeping with someone else and not thinking about me, like I don't exist. I saw her at work practically every day. One evening she dropped by my office just to say hi (this was after she got back with her husband), and was in a huge rush to get home. She made up some excuse about why she had to get home, but I could see right through it.  I could see that she had that same excited look in her eyes that I always saw whenever she needed sex from me (she needed sex a lot). I was supposedly the only guy she ever loved, but she could hardly say two words to me because she was in such a rush to drive home and get nightly sex fix. That one moment put so much in perspective for me, and it made me realize just how little she did feel for me. I try not to think about that night, but that memory keeps playing over and over again in my mind like a broken record. The first emotion the memory triggers is intense pain, but is rapidly followed by anger.

Explore how you feel and why you feel that way.  In time, with NC, you'll see things in a much better light.  Trust us. Keep posting.

I hope you're right. But we've been NC for about eight months now, and so far it isn't helping. I'm stuck in an "anger" phase I can't get out of. What the NC has done is clear my mind and allowed me to see all the lies and manipulations, and the more my vision clears the more angrier I become.

[Nuitari]

I guess this is what I'm trying to figure out. Do they know they're manipulating us? Is it all subconscious? I've been reading a lot of the information on this website, and I remember reading how borderlines will use sex as a way of controlling/dominating their partner. Looking back, it is crystal clear to me that this is what was happening. Was it crystal clear to her? What is the borderline thinking? Are they actually thinking "I'm going to give my partner amazing sex over and over until he/she loses the will to leave me?" What is exactly is happening in their heads? What is their thought process?

[WoundedBibi]

I guess this is what I'm trying to figure out. Do they know they're manipulating us? Is it all subconscious? I've been reading a lot of the information on this website, and I remember reading how borderlines will use sex as a way of controlling/dominating their partner. Looking back, it is crystal clear to me that this is what was happening. Was it crystal clear to her? What is the borderline thinking? Are they actually thinking "I'm going to give my partner amazing sex over and over until he/she loses the will to leave me?" What is exactly is happening in their heads? What is their thought process?

THE pwBPD does not exist. Therefore THE thought process of the pwBPD does not exist either. It would be the same as the pwBPD asking "what is happening in the heads of the NONs?". That question cannot be answered as what is happening in your head, what you are thinking, is not happening in my head, is not what I'm thinking. Because we are 2 different people with different characters, different genes, different backgrounds, different upbringings, different FOOs, different cultures, different genders, different experiences. The same goes for them. You will never know for sure what went on in her head.

But I can try to deduct from what I've learned about pwBPD. They know they feel threatened in the moment, they know they need something or someone to distract the person threatening them. Perhaps you confronted her with her behaviour or it felt like you might. She knew you well enough to know sex is your weak point. What better way to distract you from whatever it was you were going to do that felt threatening than have sex with you? But the manipulation is to avert a direct threat not to achieve a master plan in the distant future. PwBPD's main goal with manipulation is crisis management. They are not master strategists. If they were they would all be generals in the army or play chess at an incredible level. They can see 1 or 2 steps ahead not 4 or 12 or 28.

[Lonely_Astro]

PwBPD's main goal with manipulation is crisis management. They are not master strategists. If they were they would all be generals in the army or play chess at an incredible level. They can see 1 or 2 steps ahead not 4 or 12 or 28.

Wounded is correct here, Nuitari.  While manipulation does occur (and often), it is not part of a grand plan.  That's not to say, to you, it's any less hurtful or damaging.  It's simply a survival mechanism for the pwBPD.  This is also what causes a BPD to be different than a N/AS.  N/AS will manipulate as part of a "plan".  They want X from you, so they'll do W and Y to get X.  After they achieve that goal, they'll walk away (whatever said goal is).  BPDs are different in that they are attached to you in the beginning because they have no sense of self.  You literally complete them because you're perfect.  When it turns out you're human, they begin to lose interest because you're 'defective' and they need 'perfect' to be complete.  Unfortunately no human being on this planet will ever work with them because no human is 'perfect'. 

Nuitari, there's no way you could've succeeded in the r/s.  It's just that simple.  As hurtful as it is, it's true.  You weren't the defective one.  She was unhealthy and came into the r/s that way.  Your chance of success, under best case, was EXTREMELY slim.  And that's BEST case.  Not to mention your quality of life would be not so great.

It's hard to see now, but it does get better.  Grieving takes time, each person is different.  One day, you'll wake up and realize you aren't angry with her anymore.  Then you can forgive (not forget!)... .and that's where freedom lies.

[peace74]

Astro,

Could you explain the "perfect" theory a little bit?  My ex definitely didn't want to accept any fault to himself or others.  I am confused about expecting us to be perfect.  Does this mean meeting all their needs unconditionally or does it mean not showing any human weaknesses, etc.  Just trying to understand.

[WoundedBibi]

Astro,

Could you explain the "perfect" theory a little bit?  My ex definitely didn't want to accept any fault to himself or others.  I am confused about expecting us to be perfect.  Does this mean meeting all their needs unconditionally or does it mean not showing any human weaknesses, etc.  Just trying to understand.

I'm not Astro but I'll answer your question anyway 

It's the first option. Whatever perfect means for them. It is why they fell for us in the first place. They felt an incredible connection, like with no one else (... .), hence we must understand who they are. Finally! They have found someone who gets them! We will be the answer to everything (42), we will end their pain because we UNDERSTAND. We turn into an extension of them. We are expected to think and feel what they think or feel. To have no opinions they don't hold. To have no preferences they don't have. To be able to read their minds so they don't need to tell us what they want (my ex was really adamant in me being able to read his mind). And then it turns out we can't read their minds. And we do do something they detest. So we are not perfect. We are not them. We fall off our pedestal. We probably don't really love them either. It's all a lie. The love was a lie. We are a lie. The hate sets in.

[peace74]

Thanks Bibi.  That did clear it up for me a little.  I guess I need to do some research on being an extension to them.  I've heard this many times and understand it somewhat but not entirely.  I guess it goes along with being an object to them and not an actual person with thoughts and feelings.  Even after experiencing all this stuff first hand, it still blows my mind.

[WoundedBibi]

Thanks Bibi.  That did clear it up for me a little.  I guess I need to do some research on being an extension to them.  I've heard this many times and understand it somewhat but not entirely.  I guess it goes along with being an object to them and not an actual person with thoughts and feelings.  Even after experiencing all this stuff first hand, it still blows my mind.

I think we change into not being a real person later on.

We start of as being the Messiah. The relief of someone that understands (or so they think) their inner workings is so immense. But obviously if we understand them we think and feel like them. So we are their identical twin if you will. No explanation needed for anything because we will get it. We are them. It's their need to merge to be fully understood. Think of it like The Borg from Star Trek. They want to absorb you and become one (and yes on another level they fear being enmeshed which creates masses of tension in the pwBPD).

Until you ask them something. And it turns out you are not them. So you are no longer THE ONE. No longer the right candidate for The Borg. If you aren't THE ONE you are like the others. The ones that don't feel deep. The cardboard cutouts.

So either your feelings are theirs and you have none of your own, or you have none at all because you're made of cardboard.

[once removed]

This is my biggest obstacle. I'm learning as much as I can, but I still can't depersonalize. Its hard to believe I ever will. Here's a great example. Someone in another thread said the following... .

its important to keep in mind that none of us are professionals, and our experience is generally limited to our experience. it will go a long way toward your understanding to gain perspective from clinical literature; books, peer reviewed articles, etc. from discussions, take what you feel applies to you, leave the rest.

from what you describe in your relationship, the narrative is actually very familiar, i think to most of us.

have you had a chance to read these two articles:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves (a certain wise wolf once described this article as a view from 30000 ft and i tend to agree. take what applies, leave the rest.)

and https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality (in particular, the ten beliefs that keep us stuck are invaluable)

(this page has a sort of part 2 of that article: https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm)

[Nuitari]

Thanks. I'll read those articles.

I think at times I become so blinded by my anger that I ascribe actions and motivations to her that are only in my head. I don't think she did anything with the goal of hurting me. She just never gave any thought to how her actions might affect me. For some reason, the whole idea of me still seeing her while she was sleeping with her husband was horrific to me. We talked a lot about it, and I made her promise that she would end things with me completely before that day came. She knew how important it was to me, but I don't think she even made an attempt to keep her promise. Sleeping with her husband wasn't even the issue for me. It was the dishonesty. I felt that I had the right to know. But instead she would look me in the eye and tell me that she simply couldn't sleep with him because her feelings for me weren't letting her. But it was all a lie, and that really hurt because it was like she was making a mockery of what was once something genuine. When I later called her out on it and got her to admit the truth, she told me that she counldn't bring herself to tell me because I was a "shoulder for me to cry on," and that she needed me. She would say these things as if they were acceptable justifications for her actions. Its almost like she was expecting me to say "Oh, well as long you needed me, its fine." What I needed and what I felt never entered her head. They just weren't important to her, and they weren't supposed to be important to me either. My only purpose in her life was to satisfy her own physical and emotional needs. Everything was about her.

[once removed]

I think at times I become so blinded by my anger that I ascribe actions and motivations to her that are only in my head.

makes sense, i think we all do this to some extent, and its important to be self aware about.

I don't think she did anything with the goal of hurting me. She just never gave any thought to how her actions might affect me. For some reason, the whole idea of me still seeing her while she was sleeping with her husband was horrific to me. We talked a lot about it, and I made her promise that she would end things with me completely before that day came. She knew how important it was to me, but I don't think she even made an attempt to keep her promise.

it sounds like you feel not only misled, but perhaps violated? do i have that right?

When I later called her out on it and got her to admit the truth, she told me that she counldn't bring herself to tell me because I was a "shoulder for me to cry on," and that she needed me. She would say these things as if they were acceptable justifications for her actions. Its almost like she was expecting me to say "Oh, well as long you needed me, its fine." What I needed and what I felt never entered her head. They just weren't important to her, and they weren't supposed to be important to me either. My only purpose in her life was to satisfy her own physical and emotional needs. Everything was about her.

no, i cant imagine her explanation made you feel any better, it probably stung and baffled at the same time. an emotionally immature person can be very selfish about getting their needs met, and putting them before the needs of others.

do you feel used?

[Nuitari]

I think at times I become so blinded by my anger that I ascribe actions and motivations to her that are only in my head.

makes sense, i think we all do this to some extent, and its important to be self aware about.

The problem I'm having is that, I don't know if my anger is distorting my memories and perceptions, or if the passage of time has made them more clear. I no longer know what's real. I don't want to believe it, but the more I reflect on the past, the more "obvious" it becomes that she was taking advantage of my feelings and just playing with me. We would sometimes meet and talk for awhile after work, just to have a little time together. I remember how she used to tell me she loved me and couldn't be without me. I now know that she was going straight home and jumping into bed with her husband. What I wonder now is, did she genuinely believe that stuff she told me? I can't imagine how.

it sounds like you feel not only misled, but perhaps violated? do i have that right?

Absolutely. But I can't blame it entirely on her. Its partly my fault too. I allowed it to happen to me. I saw first hand how easily it is for her to cheat on her husband without shame or remorse. Why was I expecting any better? I tried to tell myself that she could never bring herself to do anything to hurt me because, like she used to say, she loved me and not him. But she doesn't love anyone. She isn't capable. She doesn't even know what love is.

do you feel used?

Very much so. When her husband first returned home, she told me she wasn't capable of sleeping with him because of her feelings for me. That made me feel good, because I was having a really hard time accepting that they were together. She later let slip that her husband was temporarily incapable of sex for medical reasons, and I have to wonder now if she only wanted sex from me because she wasn't getting it from him. This stuff has really scarred me, and I'm afraid that I'll never be able to have a normal relationship after this insanity.

Its a long story, but my involvement with her ultimately cost me my job. Now here's the interesting thing. After my job loss all the "I love you" stuff abruptly stopped. But she was very apologetic about what happened with my job. She blamed herself, and I distinctly remember her saying on one occasion "I never meant for things to go so far." Its pretty hard to not feel used when she says things like that.

What's really odd is that I have seen moments of clarity and genuine sincerity in her where she is sobbing uncontrollably and claiming not to live in reality. In these moments she would call herself selfish and a "user." She would apologize to me for all the pain she caused, and I believe that these rare moments were 100% genuine. But those moments were always fleeting. Her behavior never changed. Using people was like a pathology with her. She would express temporary guilt and regret, but couldn't stop what she was doing. Is this characteristic of BPD? Or is this something else?

[once removed]

The problem I'm having is that, I don't know if my anger is distorting my memories and perceptions, or if the passage of time has made them more clear.

maybe both? most of the anger i felt didnt hit me for about a year.

I no longer know what's real.

i think this is something we have to decide for ourselves, personally. there are elements of my relationship that i dont think were as i saw them, ill tell you that. the actions, all of them, were real.

I don't want to believe it, but the more I reflect on the past, the more "obvious" it becomes that she was taking advantage of my feelings and just playing with me. We would sometimes meet and talk for awhile after work, just to have a little time together. I remember how she used to tell me she loved me and couldn't be without me. I now know that she was going straight home and jumping into bed with her husband. What I wonder now is, did she genuinely believe that stuff she told me? I can't imagine how.

anger can skew our perspective. toward the end of my relationship, i hadnt seen my ex much. there had been a snowstorm and i took the opportunity not to see her. unknown to me at the time, she had likely cheated on me, a few times, including, in retrospect obviously lying to my face more than once, and even what i suspect was a perverse/covert confession. my replacement was lined up during this time. i surprised her with tickets to a concert i knew shed want to go to. i vividly remember that night or the next morning her expressing "falling in love with me all over again". it was within about two weeks that she, for the first time, went very cold and distant on me. you may know that people with BPD struggle with a sense of object permanence. to some extent (i wouldnt take it literally), "out of sight is out of mind", also feelings and needs change rapidly, and the facts are shifted to fit them. it is quite possible for her to have genuinely believed the stuff she told you, and go on to do what she did. have you accepted that she is mentally ill?

Absolutely. But I can't blame it entirely on her. Its partly my fault too. I allowed it to happen to me. I saw first hand how easily it is for her to cheat on her husband without shame or remorse. Why was I expecting any better? I tried to tell myself that she could never bring herself to do anything to hurt me because, like she used to say, she loved me and not him. But she doesn't love anyone. She isn't capable. She doesn't even know what love is.

thats good and useful self awareness, Nuitari. before i was ever with her i heard that my ex stole from her ex. her and i even discussed it and she was clearly ashamed. after our relationship ended, she would go on to steal from me. its a value of mine, "dont steal", and im frankly very judgmental about thieves, more than most things. why did i think id be different? i felt violated too, and instead of anger, i cried like a baby. my advice is dont be too hard on yourself. learn from it. act according to your gut. improve on enforcing your boundaries. and let it be the deal breaker that it sounds like it is to you.

do you feel used?

Very much so. When her husband first returned home, she told me she wasn't capable of sleeping with him because of her feelings for me. That made me feel good, because I was having a really hard time accepting that they were together. She later let slip that her husband was temporarily incapable of sex for medical reasons, and I have to wonder now if she only wanted sex from me because she wasn't getting it from him. This stuff has really scarred me, and I'm afraid that I'll never be able to have a normal relationship after this insanity.

Its a long story, but my involvement with her ultimately cost me my job. Now here's the interesting thing. After my job loss all the "I love you" stuff abruptly stopped. But she was very apologetic about what happened with my job. She blamed herself, and I distinctly remember her saying on one occasion "I never meant for things to go so far." Its pretty hard to not feel used when she says things like that.

it sounds like she might have felt exposed over what happened to you with your job, ashamed, and a little self defensive? i think its hard not to feel used in the aftermath of these relationships. we learn that our exes took on our sense of self to gain their own sense of self, and in many ways, to their own means. that sounds to us like "using". im not going to pretend that a person with BPD isnt capable of telling you what you want to hear. when my ex, after telling me shed fallen in love with me, told me that she realized shed never really loved the guys before me, i had NEVER suggested anything of the sort, but she was instinctively tuned into knowing what i wanted to hear. that i was the real deal. that the guys before me paled in comparison. that shed learned what it was really like to love. as a result i felt much safer. it helps to keep in mind (and my previous sentence really reveals it), that in many ways, both parties sought certain needs in each other that the other could not fulfill. neither party set out to hurt the other. both parties wanted a happy ending. both parties did what they needed to, to survive. it is selfish when you boil it down. i think its more complex than either party "using" the other, at least as we tend to define it. intention is not quite the same as result. result is what many of us feel anger over, and what we hold them (and ourselves) responsible for.

What's really odd is that I have seen moments of clarity and genuine sincerity in her where she is sobbing uncontrollably and claiming not to live in reality. In these moments she would call herself selfish and a "user." She would apologize to me for all the pain she caused, and I believe that these rare moments were 100% genuine. But those moments were always fleeting. Her behavior never changed. Using people was like a pathology with her. She would express temporary guilt and regret, but couldn't stop what she was doing. Is this characteristic of BPD? Or is this something else?

sure it is, though doing the same self/other sabotaging thing and having some fleeting level of awareness of it is not unique to BPD. a lot of members will tell you they saw similar moments of clarity and honesty. i remember my ex saying things along the lines of "im a failure/bad person just like my parents always told me." i never really thought she was serious, just being dramatic in the moment. the reality is she has that on a fairly constant loop deeply embedded in her psyche. shed cry to me about how deeply insecure she is. shed tell me how ashamed she was for treating me badly, how great i was to put up with it, and then continue to do the same stuff.

she went to incredibly great lengths just to use you, if that was her only intention. again, i think it helps to separate intention from result. as a result, you feel used. as a result, youre angry and hurt. thats perfectly valid. as for the inner narrative about the entirety of the relationship, your psyche is likely still processing and it needs to do that before it settles on the version that makes the most sense to you. there are painful truths, but there are also painful things (not necessarily truths) we tell ourselves while we are hurting and grieving. keep learning, keep expressing, keep working on yourself - they will all inform that process.

[iluminati]

No, it doesn't make them less culpable.  What it does do is prove an explanation for behavior.  How a sufferer deals with that is up to them.

[Nuitari]

have you accepted that she is mentally ill?

Yes. I've seen her struggle with it. There were times when she seemed pretty freaked out by her own impulsive and inconsistent behavior. She has no stable identity. One day she wants to be with me forever, telling me she wants to have my baby, etc. The very next day, her school/career goals are all that matter an this relationship business is a bunch of "nonsense." She would say these things and then later deny saying them when her mood had changed.

it sounds like she might have felt exposed over what happened to you with your job, ashamed, and a little self defensive?

Maybe. She was sincerely sorry for what happened. Here is what is odd though. She had no problem admitting (with no help from me) the havoc she created in my life and was always apologetic for it, but if I brought up something she did, she would get defensive and angry at me for accusing her of this and that.

What hurts the most is that her husband played a big part in getting me fired. She was furious and started talking about leaving him again. Then, in the blink of an eye, she decided to stay with him because he loves her. Now I have to deal with the agony of "losing" her all over again. Its bad enough that I lost her the first time, then my job too, but she still had to twist the knife further and give me false hope only to have it dashed again. When I was fired she promised me that she was going to leave him (that would have actually made it all worthwhile for me), but later says "I just said that because I was angry." That's when I realized never to take anything she says seriously again.

im not going to pretend that a person with BPD isnt capable of telling you what you want to hear. when my ex, after telling me shed fallen in love with me, told me that she realized shed never really loved the guys before me, i had NEVER suggested anything of the sort, but she was instinctively tuned into knowing what i wanted to hear. that i was the real deal. that the guys before me paled in comparison. that shed learned what it was really like to love. as a result i felt much safer.

I heard this same stuff. I think my ex was always telling me things that she knew I wanted to hear. That's what really bothers me. What I wanted to hear isn't always the same as what I needed to hear. I don't think she was able to understand that distinction. I needed to know when she began sleeping with her husband again. By keeping this from me, she really wasn't allowing me to move on. I remember once she told me that she and her husband were growing closer. When I began to hint that I should stop seeing her to avoid pain, she starts again with the horror stories, about how terrible her marriage is, and how she wished she had met me first. I think she was telling me what I wanted to hear just to keep me close. That's why I feel used. I don't think the truth really mattered to her at all. I don't know for sure, but I have reason to believe that, while whispering all these sweet nothings in my ear, she was planning a threesome with her husband and another woman. She knew that would destroy me, but she'd have no problem doing it if I didn't know about it. I once asked her if she had ever told her husband about our affair (he never knew how serious things were), and she said something like "Of course not. Why would I tell him? It would only hurt him." In her mind, it is the act of telling him that is going to hurt him. That is what she considers wrong. If no one finds out about it, its not wrong. That's her mentality.

i remember my ex saying things along the lines of "im a failure/bad person just like my parents always told me." i never really thought she was serious, just being dramatic in the moment. the reality is she has that on a fairly constant loop deeply embedded in her psyche. shed cry to me about how deeply insecure she is. shed tell me how ashamed she was for treating me badly, how great i was to put up with it, and then continue to do the same stuff.

Wow. Its like we dated the same woman. My ex was always calling herself "worthless" and a "miserable failure." I sometimes got the impression that everything she's done in her adult life (her marriage, her education, even me) has been part of an attempt to flee from these feelings.

You've given me a lot to think about. I think your right that I'm still processing everything. I feel like its going to take me years to make sense of everything I went through. Sorry if I rambled. I feel like I went off on a lot tangents, but once I start typing I feel overwhelmed with a lot of stuff I need to get off my chest.

[GreenEyedMonster]

No, it doesn't make them less culpable.  What it does do is prove an explanation for behavior.  How a sufferer deals with that is up to them.

Whenever people raise questions of culpability, responsibility, etc., I always wonder who we expect that they answer to.

Independent adults only really answer to themselves for their own morality and happiness.  If you don't like someone's morals or what they do to you, you have the option to not associate with them.  It would be nice if every person who behaved badly fell on their face and got a wake-up call of how they affect others, but life doesn't work this way, and it's not our job to make this occur to another adult as if they are a teenager or adolescent who needs to be shown the ways of the world.  If a pwBPD is not personally affected by their losses, and they survive just fine, then they will probably continue to behave the way they do, because as adults, their own satisfaction with their lives is the final say.  Unfortunately, if someone wants to hurt you in a relationship, or does it unintentionally, it's not like there are feelings police who will come and arrest them.  You really just have to walk away.

My ex will continue to hunt narcissistic supply while behaving like a dilletante and living off his trust fund, until that no longer works, which may be years in the future.  Certainly no outside "accountability" other than flat out running out of money or friends is likely to change that.