Values and Boundaries: Them VS Us

[DearBFF]

So I am trying really hard to understand personal values in relation to boundaries when it comes to others vs. ourselves.

I think in general I have good values, but I don't necessarily put them into words often enough to be able to just list them off if someone were to ask.  The only one I can say without a doubt is honesty.  This was not always the case, but it is a value I hold very dear to me.  I would like to use it as an example here to try and see if I'm understanding this correctly so I can create a better inventory of my own personal values and come up with boundaries to help protect them.

If I am understanding things right it's just that, correct?

I have personal values, my principles or standards of what I find important in life.  These could change over my lifetime, and I will probably have some that will be unchangeable and that I will not budge on while others may have room for compromise to some extent.  Am I correct?

Ok, so my personal values are something I decide and can arrange in whatever order of importance I need based on my personal feelings, where I am in my life, and perhaps important relationships.  While I might reference someone else in relation to my values they have only to do with me and my belief system, not others.  Right?

Then I have boundaries which I come up with to protect my personal values from persons/things who/that would violate them.  While I understand the 3 types of boundaries, mental, emotional, and physical, I have never thought of it this way.  Is it that a personal value can be violated on one or possibly all 3 of those levels?  Is it that we need to come up with a boundary or multiple boundaries to protect us on all 3 of those levels?  I'm not sure I get this part.

Going back to honesty and that being one of my top personal values.  I exhibit this value by trying my best to always tell the truth, correcting myself mid-sentence if need be when I find I have misspoken.  If someone asks my feelings on a subject and I realize later I did not give enough time to truly suss out my feelings before I answered I try to make contact with them in order to let them know my feelings may have changed.

If I am understanding correctly while our personal values deal with only us, our boundaries deal with others violating them, and so in turn, our actions in order to deal with these violations also have something (if in part) to do with the other person.  Am I correct?


I have no problem in most of my life living up to this one, but in my interactions with BFF or around BFF that's where it gets murky.  Advice much appreciated!

Some examples I can think of when I have felt the value of honesty has been violated are as follows:

• When BFF has asked me to cover/lie for her.  This makes me bonkers... .I don't want to get my friend in trouble nor do I want to lie for her.  I luckily have never been in a situation where it has come up, but I worry what to do when I am.  How does one get out of this?



• There are times she does not specifically ask me to lie for her, but I realize that there is something she is not being truthful about to another in my presence.  Yet, I feel I just have to stand there even when the other person looks to me as if to corroborate the story, I tend to just smile or leave the room.  I don't know what else to do since I generally completely disagree with whatever BFF is saying, but I do not feel I can just openly say this.



• When something happens with BFF and she is in NC, but others do not know and ask me how she is or when I last spoke to her.  I feel like almost any answer other than "she is not speaking to me right now" is a lie.  I have at one point when asked "What happened?" simply replied "I love her unconditionally, she has my number, and I am happy to talk to her whenever she calls."  I didn't know what else to say as I felt I could not just say "Well, she has BPD and has painted me black."  Luckily this individual is very mature and didn't need to ask more than that, so she accepted my answer and changed the subject.  Yet, I could see others pressing further and asking me more.  It's not that I don't want to tell them, as I feel like I am lying by withholding information, yet I feel I cannot.  That it isn't right, even though it would be much easier.

I would love to understand the different types of boundaries: mental, emotional, and physical in relation to the value of honesty.

Mentally would make me think me personally, am I right there?  So I guess I could simply make it a rule to not lie to myself.  Does that work?

Emotional makes me think being truthful about my feelings and I know I have trouble with this one sometimes.  For instance, BFF's boyfriend asks if BFF and I are ok?  I nodded at the time because I mean really it's not like we're completely not speaking, but I probably wouldn't call it ok.

Physical I guess would mean not doing something I find dishonest with my body.  Maybe?  I'm not sure, ... .

Help much appreciated!  I'm having trouble proceeding since I'm getting stuck here on the one I know is my biggest value that I'd like to uphold.

Thank you!   

[eeks]

Hi DearBFF,

I will likely have more to say, but first I would like to ask a question:

• There are times she does not specifically ask me to lie for her, but I realize that there is something she is not being truthful about to another in my presence.  Yet, I feel I just have to stand there even when the other person looks to me as if to corroborate the story, I tend to just smile or leave the room.  I don't know what else to do since I generally completely disagree with whatever BFF is saying, but I do not feel I can just openly say this.

Why don't you feel you can just say it?  I wonder if there are some other values coming up here, like loyalty or harmony, and maybe even some beliefs "you don't betray your friends in public" etc.

(I'm not saying you should say it, by the way, I am just interested in what feelings and thoughts are at work in you when you hesitate.)

[DearBFF]

Thanks for the reply, and I'd definitely love to hear anything and all you have to say! 

I think you are definitely correct.  I hesitate and think different things based on the person.

For me personally I have no secrets, and I don't like keeping secrets for others, and I hate it when someone asks me to keep a secret for them.  If someone I love is worried about me and talks to someone I love about it, either because they are afraid to bring it up with me or because they tried and felt I wasn't listening, that is completely alright with me.  However, I have come to realize others do not feel this same way and see it as a betrayal.  Since I don't hide things it is hard to see it this way myself, but I can understand where they are coming from.

I guess it's just past experience in that I can just talk and feel fine being free with information, as I've learned how hiding it really only hurts everyone involved in the end (especially when it's over something trivial, yet I get that for them the fact that they lied or hid it means it isn't trivial).  I suppose it depends on who we are talking about.

With BFF for instance if she asks me to lie for her (outside of being put on the spot I have flat out said I will NOT), but when she's saying "don't say this to ___" it's as if I freeze.  It's like it baffles me... .she knows I pride myself on telling the truth, then she asks me to lie.  She hates being lied to, yet doesn't see the double standard of it being ok for her to lie, but not wanting others to lie to her.  I guess my mind just rushes so quickly through all of those I kind of freeze and it passes.  In these situations just saying it would cause a fight... .something along the lines of "You're saying I'm a bad person because I don't want them to know this?  How dare you!  It's not like you're perfect... ."  (Of course, I wouldn't actually say anything like that to her, it would just be what she hears.)

If BFF is telling a story and the way she remembers is completely different than me, I find it much easier to remove myself because she has in the past kind of invited me to back her up and I cannot because I 100% disagree with her details of the event.  The person she is usually talking to is someone she has a relationship with (friends/boyfriend/family) and I am just kind of like a bystander.  I feel in these situations that I cannot just say it because it would simply seem like a she said/she said kind of thing and the person she is telling the story to would be very confused not knowing who to believe.  She often paints stories where she is the victim and if I see it differently, like someone else may have been more of a victim than she was in the story but she makes that person out to be the villain if I said so all hell would break loose.     I have even witnessed her telling a story to someone where the victim in the story that it is happening to is her, yet I know full well that the story is not about her and it's someone else's story.  This drives me nuts!  What does one say to that though... ."I think you're mistaken.  That wasn't you it was someone else?"  Yikes!   

I suppose if I truly think of it in a way I also don't want to be seen as a bad person and this is part of her rubbing off on me.  BFF sees it as me being loyal by covering for her, I see it is disrespectful of her to ask me to compromise my values to make her look better.  That's not my job!

I think the more I look into this it's that I have trouble understanding being honest and being discerning.  I guess I don't see the true value in being discerning because if you feel bad about it, know you shouldn't do it, or how it makes you look then maybe that means you shouldn't be doing it.  I have plenty of things in my past I am embarrassed over having done, but now I talk openly about them because I learned from them.  Otherwise people might think I have never messed up, that I haven't grown as a person, and that I am well... .someone I am not.

When I am not being 100% honest and giving full disclosure I feel like I am being dishonest.  I hate this feeling, but it's a very fine line for me and I always feel like either I'll upset someone by being too honest or upset myself but not being honest enough.  I don't know how to find the middle ground, mostly because I'd always rather be 100% honest and give full disclosure.  Like when BFF's boyfriend asked how we were and I nodded ok and then thought to myself, really we're not my version of ok someone could say I was being discerning by not telling him BFF had been mad at me and not talked to me in a week.  Yet, I was feeling more like I was being dishonest by letting the moment pass and not being true to myself, especially because he asked me a direct question.

I guess you could say it could go all the way back to my family of origin. 

I've always said to everyone on the outside my dad was a great guy.  If you saw a guy helping an old lady across the street, that'd be him.

The problem was that if there was a guy helping an old lady across the street and there was a guy honking his horn for them to go faster, cursing out loud that she should hurry up... .that was also my dad.

To the old lady he helped across the street, he was an angel.  To the family in the car with him honking the horn at the old lady crossing, he was an ass.   

Not many people saw that version of my dad, and I was taught to not come out and say such a thing so no one ever knew.  To this day I don't know if family knows how often I got yelled at, felt alone, hid under my bed or in my closet.  I never felt I could just say it, and I only got hit once after turning 18 so really as a kid what would I have said.  "My dad's not a nice guy."  To everyone who believed he was the nice guy helping the old lady cross the street, who would have believed me?

Sad to say it's the same now... .To most people who know BFF (at arm's length of course whether they know it or not), she's the best mom in the world who is a great friend and gorgeous model who has everything going for her.  To me she is those things... .but I have also seen the mom who has yelled at her kid so loudly that my kid ran upstairs and hid in a closet, has stood in front of her mirror and said how much she hates how she looks, yelled at me to get out of her life, kicked the dog when she was mad, self-harms when she has no other way to deal, and has had suicidal ideations of driving to the gun store when she can't take it anymore.  The same girl who is telling her victim story about her abusive ex-husband who cheated on her repeatedly, couldn't possibly cheat on own her boyfriend (twice).  The same girl who says she hates gossip could not talk about how wonderful a woman she admires is then turn around and tell a group of people that this woman she admires has been cheating on her husband for years with the neighbor. 

Yep... .I guess that's truly it and I didn't even realize it.  A big reason is that I feel like even if I said something that was true at the time (and she wasn't there to protest), that person wouldn't believe me.  There are a handful that have seen it firsthand (even if not the extent that I have), and those few do believe me.  They ask no further explanation when I say I haven't talked to BFF in a while, they don't even ask what happened, but for the most part though the person would look at me like I had 3 heads and must be completely insane.  If I breathed a word that what was coming out of her mouth was less than true even in an insignificant way not only would she be crushed but so would their idea of her.  I guess I don't want to be responsible for that.  If they don't know her then that's different, but when they do it would blow their minds.

It's not the first time it's happened either... .  My BFF in high school, a guidance counselor got her information wrong and pinned a "rumor" on me.  It's in quotes because it wasn't a rumor, it was true, but I let them believe what they wanted because no one would believe me.  I tried and they didn't.  In the end, it wasn't worth it to me to fight it.

Help much appreciated... .Thank you!

[eeks]

When I am not being 100% honest and giving full disclosure I feel like I am being dishonest.  I hate this feeling, but it's a very fine line for me and I always feel like either I'll upset someone by being too honest or upset myself but not being honest enough.  I don't know how to find the middle ground, mostly because I'd always rather be 100% honest and give full disclosure.  Like when BFF's boyfriend asked how we were and I nodded ok and then thought to myself, really we're not my version of ok someone could say I was being discerning by not telling him BFF had been mad at me and not talked to me in a week.  Yet, I was feeling more like I was being dishonest by letting the moment pass and not being true to myself, especially because he asked me a direct question.

I hear you.  It's a fine balance.  How would you feel about saying something like "Things between us are not very good right now." and if he presses further you can say you'd prefer not to talk about it, it's between her and you?

I guess you could say it could go all the way back to my family of origin.  

I've always said to everyone on the outside my dad was a great guy.  If you saw a guy helping an old lady across the street, that'd be him.

The problem was that if there was a guy helping an old lady across the street and there was a guy honking his horn for them to go faster, cursing out loud that she should hurry up... .that was also my dad.

To the old lady he helped across the street, he was an angel.  To the family in the car with him honking the horn at the old lady crossing, he was an ass.  

Not many people saw that version of my dad, and I was taught to not come out and say such a thing so no one ever knew.  To this day I don't know if family knows how often I got yelled at, felt alone, hid under my bed or in my closet.  I never felt I could just say it, and I only got hit once after turning 18 so really as a kid what would I have said.  "My dad's not a nice guy."  To everyone who believed he was the nice guy helping the old lady cross the street, who would have believed me?

Aha.  That's a really difficult position to put a child in, where they know the truth about their parent but no one would believe them if they told.  It sounds like he might have narcissistic traits.  You may find this article helpful, in that it explains how narcissistic parents need to feel like they are the location of all the "good stuff", so they make their child the location of all the "bad stuff".  www.danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Enter_Ghosts.pdf

Yep... .I guess that's truly it and I didn't even realize it.  A big reason is that I feel like even if I said something that was true at the time (and she wasn't there to protest), that person wouldn't believe me.  There are a handful that have seen it firsthand (even if not the extent that I have), and those few do believe me.  They ask no further explanation when I say I haven't talked to BFF in a while, they don't even ask what happened, but for the most part though the person would look at me like I had 3 heads and must be completely insane.  If I breathed a word that what was coming out of her mouth was less than true even in an insignificant way not only would she be crushed but so would their idea of her.  I guess I don't want to be responsible for that.  If they don't know her then that's different, but when they do it would blow their minds.

Do you think there might be a way to respond that allows other people who know your BFF to have their experience with her, without discounting your own?

Are you responsible for her behaviour/reputation?

In the end, it wasn't worth it to me to fight it.

This reminds me of my mother (her father was likely NPD), and how often she says she picks her battles, it isn't worth fighting over, you can't befriend a mad dog, etc. etc.  I believe she uses this as a self-protective mechanism to prevent herself from doing the forbidden thing of advocating for herself.  This may be a difficult hurdle for you to overcome, to learn that you are in fact worth fighting for.  

[Grey Kitty]

Values like honesty are pretty much universal--everybody agrees that they are a good thing.

Living up to one value is easy and straightforward.

When two values come into direct conflict, or at least push in different directions, that is the messy difficult and interesting place where living up to your own principles and values is really HARD. (Honesty vs. loyalty, as eeks mentioned earlier)

When I am not being 100% honest and giving full disclosure I feel like I am being dishonest.  I hate this feeling, but it's a very fine line for me and I always feel like either I'll upset someone by being too honest or upset myself but not being honest enough.  I don't know how to find the middle ground, mostly because I'd always rather be 100% honest and give full disclosure.  Like when BFF's boyfriend asked how we were and I nodded ok and then thought to myself, really we're not my version of ok someone could say I was being discerning by not telling him BFF had been mad at me and not talked to me in a week.  Yet, I was feeling more like I was being dishonest by letting the moment pass and not being true to myself, especially because he asked me a direct question.

Part of that is a social convention--people ask how things are going not because they want a deep and truthful answer but as polite conversation. There is a favorite song of mine with this bit that I've always loved:

If I answered, if you called me, I'd say I'm doing fine.

I'd like to think we'd both know I was lying.

In a situation like that, he likely knows better... .and he has an opportunity to ask you for the "real" answer if he knows you are just being polite with your dismissive answer. I view that less as being deceptive as responding to the question with a challenge of sorts--do you really want to know the whole story, or are you just being polite by asking? And in this case, his response was "Nope, being polite was good enough for me this time."

Back to honesty--I was raised by parents who are scrupulously honest. I've got that same value, and I'm learning how to push it down relative to some of my other values so I don't get myself into trouble. In my case, it is honesty vs. kindness and honesty loses in some cases.

I still don't lie. Not directly. It is very hard for me to do that. And even if I tried, I know I'm not going to be good at it.

Not telling 100% of the story isn't the same as lying. It may or may not even be deceptive. There are many truthful things that were I to speak them would only cause harm to myself and the person hearing them. I will try to avoid saying those things if I can in any way possible (generally short of lying directly) A classic example is ":)oes this dress make my butt look big?" Saying "Yes" may be truthful, but it will only cause harm if I said that.

I also find the distinction between privacy and secrecy important here--There are things which are private--not another person's business, and you don't have to tell them about it. What makes something a secret is when it *IS* their business.

For example, every text conversation you have with every other human being isn't your husband's business. (or vise-versa) You don't need to read everything that is on his phone, and he doesn't need to read everything on your phone. You can have friends and relationships that don't involve him, and he can have relationships that don't involve you. (Coworkers are a good example of this) There's nothing wrong with this kind of privacy.

If you were having some kind of affair with another guy, that WOULD be his business, and hiding that would be an unhealthy secret. In that case, hiding your phone so he can't read your text messages with your lover would be secrecy and deceptive. This is a very hypothetical example to show the difference between secrecy and privacy... .I'm sure you aren't doing anything of the sort!

What makes things even messier in this realm is that people who are hiding secrets often claim that they just need privacy. So it can feel suspect.

In the end, if being honest would also be unkind, and isn't really the other person's business, staying silent is the best choice for me.

[DearBFF]

How would you feel about saying something like "Things between us are not very good right now." and if he presses further you can say you'd prefer not to talk about it, it's between her and you?

I would say I wouldn't necessarily feel bad about it, as it would have been truer to how I felt.  Yet, I have said something like this before and ended up getting in trouble for it.  To her, even that much is no one else's business because if they asked her she would brush it off saying, "We're fine" like nothing is wrong.  One of the times she wasn't talking to me she told someone we were "taking a break."  When the person told me I laughed, and said "That's news to me."  It's like I'm not allowed to have my own thoughts and feelings about it I guess.  

Also, I have problems with the word OK.  Her version of OK is not my version of OK, so I don't think we'll ever be my version of OK so I have a reaction when someone uses that word.  It's like I want to ask them their definition before I answer.  

In a way I suppose it's also that it seems easier to say ok because if I say more then they take that back to her, and she uses it to turn them against me.  For instance, she could say, "We're totally fine!  See how she overreacts and takes things so personally.  I'm just so busy and she can't stand that I don't have time for her right now.  She's too needy."  She'd completely leave out everything she did that would have given me the impression that we were less than OK.  So the person then takes what I said and what she said and because they have no idea about her actions towards me, they just think it's me.  Frustrating... .   

When she used to have a roommate she said I could drop by whenever I wanted and she gave me a key.  I told her that I would only drop by if she stopped answering her phone.  It was a time she had gone inward because her boyfriend broke up with her, and I thought the roommate was at work so I stopped by.  It turns out the roommate was there, and when I walked in I frightened her.  I am guessing the roommate made a comment to her about me stopping by unannounced, and BFF went along with slamming me instead of saying, "Oh sorry, I told her she could."  By the end, the roommate hated me and BFF told me she thought I was psychotic.

It sounds like he might have narcissistic traits.

When I started learning about BPD and read up on the other personality disorders I would say he is definitely something, but I don't know which.  The way you described the good/bad definitely is how I felt.  From the beginning it's like he had this mold he wanted me to fit and I didn't so I could never do anything right.  My mom grew up in a family with 7 kids, and they all got smacked with a belt by their father.  They never told because it's just how things were done, it was "normal" and you would never discuss family business outside the home.  When my dad did finally smack me and I tried to leave he pinned me to the ground and wouldn't let me leave, even though I struggled and kicked, when I yelled he covered my mouth.  My mom watched.  After, my mom said, "At least I know you can defend yourself."  I guess because I yelled and kicked, not that it mattered since he was over twice my size.  Later I heard her say hitting women is not right, but at the time, she did not to protect me.

I had not seen that article before.  Thank you!  

Do you think there might be a way to respond that allows other people who know your BFF to have their experience with her, without discounting your own?

The therapist I have seen 4 times now when I need to talk, mostly about BFF said she is part of my story.  It's not fair for me to feel I cannot talk about her or what she does to me because it is my story too.  Yet, I do feel this way.  When they do not know her it's different and I usually explain up front because when they ask about her (in photos online) or if I mention the girls playing together then suddenly they ask and we haven't talked in weeks/months they don't get it.  So it's easier to explain up front she has some issues and sometimes drops out of my life, etc... .says things that aren't nice... . I choose to be her friend anyway.  Then they get it, and don't ask a ton about it or say I shouldn't be her friend because I've already said I am.  Then they just understand, it's nice.

When it's people who don't know though it's really hard.  At the birthday party, one person sat down and said, "How's she doing really?"  I literally said "I don't know" and got a weird look.  The truth is they probably knew more than I did as I had only one 5 minute phone call from her in the hospital (and it may have been because boyfriend may have been standing here, I don't know).  She has literally said when people ask about her she just wants me to say, "She's doing really good.  We're doing really good.  Everything is really good."  That's crap! LOL... .so then I stumble for words because I really don't know what to say that I will feel is validating my experience (that they cannot even comprehend) and won't upset her; which is impossible because anything will it seems.

Are you responsible for her behaviour/reputation?

I know the right answer here is NO, ... .   Yep, but I do feel responsible somehow, not for her physically/emotionally/etc, but as far as my words about her.  I guess it's like I don't want to ruin their idea of her.  I think it is part of that loyalty thing I mentioned to her, to her loyal means you will never paint me in a bad light, but basically that means I would never tell the truth about her behavior.

Like with boyfriend I hope all the time that he NEVER sees it, and as long as they live apart there's this slight chance he won't.  Yet, as it progresses and they move in together he will and then it will crumble.  I think he feels safe enough to approach me about it, and I hope I can give an explanation that will help him.  Some ways he can approach her, talk to her, validate her feelings without denying his own without just saying "I think she has BPD!"  That is not something I want to do, but I do want to be there for him (and in a roundabout way her).  I know having someone who understands when he says things, who actually gets how/why things happen and can explain them would have made the world of difference to me when she started painting me black.  I wouldn't have beat myself up so much wondering what I did wrong.  I would have had someone who could tell me "look this might be how she sees it" and "if you say it like this it might go better" and "you didn't do something wrong."  I felt so alone... .I don't want him to feel like that.  If I can say something helpful, maybe then he'll see that it can still work.  He could also just say it's too complicated and leave.  Who knows?

the forbidden thing of advocating for herself.  This may be a difficult hurdle for you to overcome, to learn that you are in fact worth fighting for.

Yes, I feel very much like this.  In my whole life actually.  With my friend in high school, it was like she was going through so much why fight to "fix" this which will just make things worse for her.  It's the same with BFF now... .Why fight to make someone see her or what she did to me when they wouldn't believe me anyway, and when she struggles so much already.  What good would it do?

I guess you could be saying that I would, at least, feel heard but I guess I just end up feeling like what does it matter.  

Those few who hear me:

* either get it and have compassion for her and me.  "I'm sorry to hear she is struggling, and I am sorry to hear what you've been going through.  If that is how she is and it's not going to change anytime soon until she decides she wants to so you just have to accept it or move on."  I end up wondering why I bother since I knew that's what they were going to say anyway.  I don't know what more I could ask for at least they listen.

* or they have no compassion for her such as my husband and he's mostly silent when I vent.  I want him to respond, but on the few occasions, I try to push him for one I instantly regret it.  The last time his response was... ."I hear people like you every day at work.  Women who have partners who beat them.  They say, 'but when he's not hitting me!'  Well, as far as I am concerned she's just like them."  I think I cried more over his statement than I did over whatever she did that I vented about in the first place.

* or they have no idea what's going on... .she keeps them away, they see what they want and what she wants them to see.  They don't know her or how she treats people, and they would never believe she was anything other than her best.

I rarely walk away from any of those situations feeling much better.  The venting to hubby helps, but not when a comment like the one above leaves me feeling worse than when I began.  The only woman with compassion who truly listens and helps me feel better believes her own daughter probably has BPD, so she gets it on a whole different level.

As for myself, I guess I have gotten to a point where I want them to see, but I have to accept that they never will.  So then I just feel distanced, and unheard, and like I'm alone with it in a way.  On here though it does feel better.  Thanks  

You responses are very helpful, eeks!

[DearBFF]

When two values come into direct conflict, or at least push in different directions, that is the messy difficult and interesting place where living up to your own principles and values is really HARD. (Honesty vs. loyalty, as eeks mentioned earlier)

Yes, I think this is where I am having the most trouble, with honesty vs. loyalty, but also with honesty vs discretion. (yep, I realized I mixed up discerning and discretion, , sorry about that)

polite conversation

Yep, see I am not good at this.    I always try to be as honest as I can, sometimes I realize I wasn't as honest as I could have been but if someone calls and asks I think about the answer and answer accordingly.  For instance when he called me and I had a partially bad week I told him, and then told him about how it got better.  He not only listened but responded accordingly.  It was wonderful, since most conversations like that are just polite, but he seemed truly invested in what I was saying.  When he asked how BFF and I were doing at the party we were in a deeper conversation about me asking how she was really doing (since she wasn't talking to me) and as he told me I got kind of teary-eyed just knowing she was doing alright made me happy.  Yet, the tears were just missing her and seeing her for the first time after her accident, a mix of things.  He asked if we were doing alright when he saw the tears in my eyes... .Possibly because he thought it was odd I was asking him, as she would have normally told me every detail but I had only talked to her 10 minutes in those past few weeks.

Part of my problem with OK is that for me OK is basically I'm not great, but I'm not awful either (basically I'm not bleeding/dying), .  BFF had told me I should have called her to say I was not ok because I was having a bad week, but to me I was OK because we have different definitions.

I hate polite conversation because I'd much rather be having a conversation with myself in my head or reading a book that just trading pleasantries.  If that's all it is I have to force myself not to just go home.  It's frustrating to me when someone asks a question and then I answer and at some point I realize, oh they didn't really want to know.  All I can think, is then why did they ask.  It feels false and unkind to me.  Such as the question "How are you doing?"  I can count the number of times I have been asked that on one hand for the last month!  So if someone asks me it takes me a bit by surprise, and I don't sit there telling myself oh just say ok they're just asking to be nice.  I think they actually want to know. 

scrupulously honest

My parents looked like this on the outside, but then on the inside, the messages were so mixed.  We don't lie... .unless we don't like them then we are polite and make up an excuse as to why they cannot come over.  We don't steal... .unless we really want it and no one will see us take it, if they don't know we're stealing it's fine.  We don't say mean things... .unless it is behind their back and we are using them as an example of what not to be.  I mean really... .it made my head spin from time to time so I've had quite the time of sorting it all out.

I still don't lie. [... .] I know I'm not going to be good at it.

See I know I'm really good at it because my parents made me good at it, both in their actions and both in that I had to lie to feel safe, get away from them, and/or not get in trouble.  I was never good at acting with a script as I have a horrible time remembering the words.  Yet, you give me something to improv and I can have the audience eating out of my hand.  If people that know me know knew how good I was at it really (since I don't do it they don't know) they would probably be terrified I never tell them the truth, because I've never had someone actually call me out before.  As far as I know they truly can't tell.  That is actually one of the many reasons I don't... .sometimes I could get to a point where I forget what the truth is because I'm even good at lying to myself and changing details so I have trouble remembering reality.

":)oes this dress make my butt look big?"

See I would want total honesty... .I'd want yes, then I would know I should get rid of these pants.  I don't actually ask that kind of thing, because I like to decide for myself, but this is why I have trouble in conversation.  I cannot always figure it out.  How I can tell the truth, tell my story, and not hurt others.  I often feel that when I tell the minimal truth I end up feeling hurt and/or unheard.  This is either because I leave out that I am in a place where I am feeling hurt because then they'd want to know why, or that I didn't tell them what really happened which left an opening for BFF to color it so I look like I am at fault for being, whatever.  Too sensitive... .too needy... .too much in general.  The other person never sees the background in which my behavior makes perfect sense.

There are things which are private--not another person's business, and you don't have to tell them about it.

Alright, so my problem here is that seems like EVERYTHING.  Let's say I lost my job... .So this may be my coworker's business as they may wonder why they don't see me anymore and I want to say goodbye.  It may be my spouse's business because it will affect our finances.  To me, it also becomes the business of anyone who asks me how I am doing or about work.  I feel like If someone asks about my story and me losing my job is part of that, then why not tell them?

I run into this same problem with BFF.  People ask me about her... .like a lot.  How is she?  Have the girls been playing?  What have you two been up to?  Generally, at different points in time, I may have no good answer to these questions.  The next question is usually "why not?"

I honestly don't know how I answer... .Here's what I'd want to say if it's someone who knows, understands, etc.  Yep, you're going to be like NO... .this is my problem! 

How is she?  "I don't know"  Why not? --->  She can only have one close relationship at a time so I have been replaced with her new boyfriend.  She's pushed me away and this means that we barely speak.  I have told her she has taught me not to call her after weeks of her barely answering my phone calls and rarely making plans so unless she calls me, which is rare, I don't hear from her.  So I have no idea how she is doing just now.  (Then this person goes and tells BFF that I didn't know how she was doing and she flips a lid that I insinuated that we are less than fine.)

Have the girls been playing?  "No"  "Why not? --->  In the past she has told me that it would be fine if the girls hung out weekly, as our schedules allow since that's usually how often my daughter used to ask about seeing her friend.  Recently, BFF changed her mind but did not make me aware of this fact, so instead she stopped answering my phone calls.  When I asked her about this she said she was just busy.  After I wrote an email trying to talk to her about it further, expressing my hurt feelings over many ignored phone calls and rarely receiving phone calls back she stopped talking to me for a week.  When I went in person to talk to her she said my email was nasty and that I was needy because I said I had been needing to talk to her about something I knew only she would understand.  I said it didn't seem to much to ask for 5 minutes a week on the phone with my best friend.  I told her I would no longer chase her, and that I called to see if the girls could get together because that is important to me.  She told me that is not important to her.  So no the girls have not been playing. 

What have you two been up to? "Nothing"  Why not?  --->  I told her she has taught me to not to call her after many unanswered and unreturned phone calls.  I told her I would no longer chase her, and if she wants me in her life she has to put me there.  I haven't seen her since her daughter's birthday party.  I've only heard from her once since.

To most that would be too much, and/or unkind, but to me laying out something that happened especially when someone asks is just asnwering their question.  For people that know me/BFF none of them would think I was being mean/cruel in my answer.  They know how she can be and since the behavior doesn't shock them they take it for what it is, me just telling my story.  BFF was there, saying and doing whatever, but I'm telling them about me and my experience.  To me, I'm not saying anything bad, not judging it, just laying it out there.

What makes something a secret is when it *IS* their business.

I tell my husband everything! ... .well not everything, but I guess I'd say there is nothing I would not tell him unless someone specifically tells me it is a secret and it is about them; then I absolutely respect that.  It's not mine to tell.  I think this is part of the problem I have is that when someone asks me about something I have no real problem telling them (if it's not a secret that someone has told me, although if they are negative they don't hold much weight with me).

Also, I feel like me believing BFF may have BPD is kind of a secret because boyfriend, or really everyone doesn't know.  I hate secrets... .I partly feel he will blame me if/when he figures it out knowing that I knew something was off. 

I guess I have almost never encountered a secret that was good to keep.  When something is truly personal and does not actually touch the life of anyone, but that one person I see it fine as being kept private.  It's their choice to tell. 

Yet, when someone asks me about me and my answer involves someone else I feel like I hesitate.  I really don't know how much is too much because for me it's my experience, why not share it.   

In a way I want to get better at this, but at the same time I usually feel so much better when I am actually with someone where I can just say "Let me tell you what happened."  I feel relieved, like I don't have to hide it or protect her, or anything.  I can just be myself, and speak my mind.

[Grey Kitty]

It sounds to me like you were raised with some pretty messed up stuff that did a good job of appearing normal to people at a distance. Being punished for lying ... .and being punished for not properly maintaining your parent's lies both has to have given you some serious confusion about honesty and privacy, as you are noticing!

There are things which are private--not another person's business, and you don't have to tell them about it.

Alright, so my problem here is that seems like EVERYTHING.  Let's say I lost my job... .So this may be my coworker's business as they may wonder why they don't see me anymore and I want to say goodbye.  It may be my spouse's business because it will affect our finances.  To me, it also becomes the business of anyone who asks me how I am doing or about work.  I feel like If someone asks about my story and me losing my job is part of that, then why not tell them?

I would say that losing your job does impact your coworkers and your spouse, and you should tell them.

As a counter-example, if BFF isn't talking to you this month, and assuming she isn't a professional contact in any way, that isn't anything that your coworkers need to know... .You might choose to share it... .but choosing NOT to wouldn't be misleading to them in any way; there wouldn't be any problem with that.

How is she?  "I don't know"  Why not? --->  She can only have one close relationship at a time so I have been replaced with her new boyfriend.  She's pushed me away and this means that we barely speak.  I have told her she has taught me not to call her after weeks of her barely answering my phone calls and rarely making plans so unless she calls me, which is rare, I don't hear from her.  So I have no idea how she is doing just now.  (Then this person goes and tells BFF that I didn't know how she was doing and she flips a lid that I insinuated that we are less than fine.)

Telling a mutual friend all the bolded section is probably more than you need to say by a long shot. In your shoes, I'd probably respond to "Why not?" with "We've been out of touch for a while. I haven't heard anything recently." You could respond to any further questioning with something like "I don't know." Because you really don't know what she's thinking, or why she's gone silent on you this time. Perhaps you can guess, but you really don't KNOW.

Then comes the problem of word getting back to BFF and BFF "flipping a lid". In your shoes, I'd just let her flip a lid. I've been in the position of trying to "help" a mentally ill person hide their bad behavior, or hide from the consequences of their bad behavior. It is a horrible place to be, and I just won't play that game anymore. (But I gotta admit it took me a long time and a lot of work to get to the point where I could do that!)

[DearBFF]

When I say something like "We've been out of touch for a while"  I feel icky... .like really icky because even I don't believe me when I say it.  It may be the truth on some greater level, but to me that seems to indicate something happened that put us out of touch and brings up so many questions.  Plus, I feel that answers like that seem to indicate that I don't want to talk to her or I am choosing not to for some reason.

As far as her "flipping her lid" how do you decide what is ok to tell that might ultimately lead to that?  I guess I have no way to figure out where my story ends and hers begins because when something happens it's both of us... .then people ask me about it.  How can I express what happened without relating what happened?

One of the times she stopped talking to me for a month we had gone out to dinner together with 2 men.  BFF had joked/bragged about one of the guys who was an employee, that she could bat her eyelashes and get him to do things for free.  The other man was his brother.  She had made comments to everyone working there along these lines and a few even approached me saying, "but I thought she had a boyfriend... .etc" which she did, and I was married and had no desire to go.  I was in fact, told I was going by BFF right in front of the employee and then felt I had no choice.  My husband literally cracked up laughing, as he finds it funny how BFF gets me into these situations I don't necessarily want to be in.  So he sent me off to dinner saying, "Have fun!  I hope it goes well."

The truth is we had a bit of fun, but it was also extremely awkward and the employee was all over BFF the entire night.  When I got home I relayed the story to hubby while he laughed, and laughed, so did I.  Then the next day one of the employees asked how dinner was and by the face I made she knew it would be a good story.  So I told her about our night, and how we both wanted to leave because the guy was a bit handsy.  I even told her a direct quote from BFF... .somehow this woman then took that quote to BFF, but took it out of context and BFF though I had told this woman she did something she didn't.  I had no idea this happened and was just shunned.  When I tried to ask BFF what was wrong she said, "If you don't know I'm not going to tell you."  After that is when she told me to "get out of her life."  Then she didn't speak to me for a month and it wasn't until after that month that I even found out what the problem was.  I guess the woman either misunderstood me or misspoke and when BFF flew off the handle thinking I was bad-mouthing her, when all I had done was repeat a direct quote she made she cut me out of her life later saying I was spreading lies about her.     That's the kind of stuff I deal with... . 

Seriously, how could I know that repeating a direct quote that someone made while telling a funny story about a night out would backfire into her not speaking to me for a month.  Seemingly safe topic... .*boom*

This is also why I have trouble... .even seemingly safe seems to go wrong.

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are so conflicted because you KNOW that your BFF is totally in the wrong here, and is punishing you capriciously for something that isn't your fault.

But don't want to risk the punishment from her despite this.

And the real conflict is that you *think* if you just do the "right" thing she won't decide to punish you.

When the nature of BPD is that she gets upset, then figures out how to blame you. And the true reason is that she's upset, not anything you did.

[DearBFF]

Yes, what you are saying makes sense.  Thank you, Grey Kitty.

I realized something thinking about it earlier... .how we were discussing losing a job and it makes sense to tell my husband and coworkers.  The thing is that fits very well into a box.  The problem is that in my life I have no boxes.  So in my life when something happens to me I have no one within that box to talk to.  Does that make sense?