is atonement appropriate?

[patientandclear]

Greetings all. I've been wrestling with something and would value your thoughts.

For many months now I have struggled with regret over the imperfect way in which I made a completely reasonable request to share with my BPDex my feelings about how our ambiguous relationship was unfolding. He reacted poorly and we haven't communicated since. We had been doing well and it feels like a big loss (again).

Looking back, which I started doing almost immediately after the exchange (as I logged at length on the then-Staying Board), I can clearly see that there were "better" ways to make my request to talk, ways that would have been experienced by him less as an ultimatum, less as an affront to his autonomy. A therapist brought up the concept of atonement, and I had two strong and conflicting reactions.

One: relief. At some level it would feel good to voice to him that I wish I had in fact done better. In some ways it might feel I could be done with that issue.

Two: aversion and intense resistance. Based on how such things have gone in the past, I am virtually certain that he would receive this apology as license to stop feeling whatever brand of bad he feels about what happened. He should feel bad--he had busted my stated boundaries repeatedly, I'd said I would consider a different approach but we needed to talk, he'd said we could talk whenever I needed it, we'd proceeded to have the sort of r/ship he really wants to have with me--and then I asked to have that talk to get expectations clear (NOT to get him to agree to anything he did not want) and he declined. Said he was too exhausted and implied the exhaustion was in part due to his travails with at least one another woman. Not cool. I am not interested in contributing to any feeling on his part that his reaction was OK or comes without a serious cost. When I contemplated an atonement message I started weeping with an immediate impotent fury and feeling of injustice. I think this is amplified by my longstanding abusive r/ship with my H, before this man with BPD. So many times I took responsibility for my part and he never did for his. It felt crappy and my tendency to do this one-sided responsibility-taking as part of repair work is something I had vowed to leave behind.

I know that atonement is to square up our own quarters, not about how it makes the other person feel or react--that is their business. BUT somehow it seems like I am feeding the machinery of dysfunction if I knowingly contribute to him justifying what happened.

Would appreciate any thoughts or insight. I am so torn about this, I sense there may be a key here to unlocking what is making it so hard for me to accept what happened.

[HurtinNW]

Taking accountability is good, and that is atoning. But I would ask this:

Do you have to atone to him? What is the purpose of that, given how you know he will not hear it in the correct spirit?

My opinion is we atone to seek understanding. Some people atone in church. Others in prayer. Many atone in their future actions, but becoming better people and helping others. Sometimes we atone to the ones we hurt. But the point of atonement is not to seek his validation. It's about you making yourself right with the universe.

I've wrestled with the similar. In the past when I tried hard to take accountability for my side of the road my ex would use this as an excuse to exonerate himself. I have to learn to accept that. If I were to atone to him it would be for me, and I would have to radically accept it would be his chance to avoid accountability.

I'm not ready to do that, and further, I see no point. When I atone I plan to do it in meaningful ways, such as helping others, being good to the current people in my life.

My two cents.

[heartandwhole]

Hi patientandclear 

Thank you for expressing this very heartfelt inquiry. I commend you for being so thoughtful about this subject and honest in your sharing. I think your intuition is giving your important messages as well. I certainly don't profess to have any wisdom to share, but here are some of the thoughts that came up reading your post. I have always resonated with your situation (I think there were many similarities in our "kind" of relationship with pwBPD) and just want you to know that you are not alone in your pondering of doing the right/wrong/ not good/better thing. 

One: relief. At some level it would feel good to voice to him that I wish I had in fact done better. In some ways it might feel I could be done with that issue.

Is it possible that this inquiry arises out of desire to contact/engage with pwBPD, rather than simple atonement? The reason I ask is because you can tell him what you are feeling now, but you cannot control how and whether he will receive it (as you mention below). This atonement, in my opinion, can happen in your heart (and even with him in your mind/heart, through writing a letter, prayer, meditation, with other people, etc.), enabling you to forgive yourself for not being perfect and let go. I think you can achieve this without him, so I wonder if it is a "do over" that you are looking for? I think wanting to engage or rectify something with someone who means so much to us is very normal and understandable—I'm just wondering if there is a deeper layer that might be fruitful to investigate. One that looks at you getting right with you, for example.

Two: aversion and intense resistance. Based on how such things have gone in the past, I am virtually certain that he would receive this apology as license to stop feeling whatever brand of bad he feels about what happened. He should feel bad--he had busted my stated boundaries repeatedly, I'd said I would consider a different approach but we needed to talk, he'd said we could talk whenever I needed it, we'd proceeded to have the sort of r/ship he really wants to have with me--and then I asked to have that talk to get expectations clear (NOT to get him to agree to anything he did not want) and he declined. Said he was too exhausted and implied the exhaustion was in part due to his travails with at least one another woman. Not cool. I am not interested in contributing to any feeling on his part that his reaction was OK or comes without a serious cost. When I contemplated an atonement message I started weeping with an immediate impotent fury and feeling of injustice. I think this is amplified by my longstanding abusive r/ship with my H, before this man with BPD.

This all makes a lot of sense, patientandclear, and the bolded part stood out for me. Maybe there is a bit of tug of war with the head and heart, here? The rational mind sees opportunity to "fix" or control an outcome, but your gut is telling you that you have done enough, that you deserve(d) more. I resonate with that feeling, and for me, it brings up fear of being diminished, of losing myself completely for (ultimately) no good reason. In my case, it's an outdated survival mechanism.

So many times I took responsibility for my part and he never did for his. It felt crappy and my tendency to do this one-sided responsibility-taking as part of repair work is something I had vowed to leave behind.

Amen to that. I am there with you. 

I know that atonement is to square up our own quarters, not about how it makes the other person feel or react--that is their business. BUT somehow it seems like I am feeding the machinery of dysfunction if I knowingly contribute to him justifying what happened.

Whose dysfunction? His or yours? You know if your ex has BPD or traits, he is likely justifying many, many things that you don't even know about. If you want to stop "feeding" the dysfunction, you can only do that by challenging your previous beliefs and behaviors. By not doing what you have always done. By letting him think and be and do whatever he wants (as you know, he does anyway, always). I know you have always honored his path and never tried to steer him onto yours. You have been so very, very understanding and accepting of him, patient. I'm glad to see you extending that very same skill toward yourself in this post.

heartandwhole 

[patientandclear]

Thank you both, so much. Reflecting on all that you said.

To the point that atonement need not directly involve the other person: actually the concept the therapist mentioned was amends, not atonement. My understanding is that amends, in the 12 step model at least, must be done directly to the other involved person. I think because it DOES force us to just deal with our own part, even if there are counterveiling wrongs they did to us. It is an actual taking of responsibility for our part.

That said ... .That doesn't mean the concept fits here or must be applied. Mulling your comments.

[HurtinNW]

That makes sense, patientandclear.

Do you think your therapist has much understanding of BPD or your relationship? I know mine is urging absolute no contact.

I suggest the bottom line here has to be what is healthy for you, and what will help you grow and heal. If contact with your ex ends up with you feeling diminished, where your healthy feelings of injustice and hurt are essentially ignored in favor of giving him information he uses to exonerate himself... .I would worry about that. I personally don't see that as you changing your own behavior. It sounds like exactly what you have done before.

One of my concerns here is in the 12-step model amends are used for the addict to own their own mistakes. Codependent do make mistakes, plenty of them, but our tendency is to take responsibility for everything, and for us the amend process could be very easily co-opted by our co-dependence. Does that makes sense?

editing to add: you posted this was about you having regret over making a perfectly appropriate request in an imperfect way. I wonder if that is really such a bad thing you need to make amends for. I think amends are more for serious behaviors.

[vortex of confusion]

To the point that atonement need not directly involve the other person: actually the concept the therapist mentioned was amends, not atonement. My understanding is that amends, in the 12 step model at least, must be done directly to the other involved person. I think because it DOES force us to just deal with our own part, even if there are counterveiling wrongs they did to us. It is an actual taking of responsibility for our part.

That said ... .That doesn't mean the concept fits here or must be applied. Mulling your comments.

I want to challenge the idea that it must be done directly to the other involved person. My understanding is that you make amends to the other person, if and only if, it is not going to cause more damage or harm. It sounds like making amends directly to him could possibly hurt your or create a potentially difficult situation.

STBX went through the 12 step program and he did the making amends thing. His process of making amends, in my opinion, did more harm than good because he was reaching out to old girlfriends and crushes without considering the impact that it could have on me. His making amends to them such a priority over making amends to me was devastating. Have you considered that maybe the person you need to be making amends to is YOU. I spent some time working some of the steps and I was frustrated at this notion that I had to make amends to these people that hurt me. One of the things that I did get that I have thought long and hard about is that the person that I need to make amends to the most is MYSELF!

STBX was taking responsibility for his actions. I seriously questioned his motives as there are avenues of making amends that did not involve contacting the person directly, especially if contacting the person could create a bad situation. It may have helped ease HIS conscience a little bit. In my opinion, him prioritizing those other women over me in the amends process did even more irreparable damage to the relationship. A question to consider is "Why are you prioritizing him over yourself?"

[heartandwhole]

editing to add: you posted this was about you having regret over making a perfectly appropriate request in an imperfect way. I wonder if that is really such a bad thing you need to make amends for. I think amends are more for serious behaviors.

I agree, and think this is an important point, especially with respect to the idea of "reparations" toward yourself.

[Grey Kitty]

This parallels with the concept of forgiveness in my mind.

You forgive him ... .for yourself, so you are free from carrying around the old hurt. And forgiveness doesn't include any obligation to re-expose yourself to the same sort of harm you experienced from him in the past.

As for as expressing atonement, making amends, or apologizing TO him, I'm pretty skeptical that it is a good idea.

This is the key here for me: How deeply do you believe this part is true?

the imperfect way in which I made a completely reasonable request to share with my BPDex my feelings about how our ambiguous relationship was unfolding.

If your request WAS reasonable, that should be enough.

If this relationship is ever to have any balance or depth to it, he has to be able to listen to your requests, hear how you feel about things.

I've followed your story for a while, so I'm pretty sure it was indeed reasonable and real for you. And that he was incapable of responding well or constructively.

If you say your way of expressing it was imperfect, I'm not sure what that means. If "perfect" means saying something he's incapable of responding well to in a way that he responds positively to, that kind of perfection doesn't exist.

More likely "perfect" would be avoiding a tiny bit of invalidation that wasn't needed in what you said.

What you needed to say to him was that your needs didn't match his behavior... .and that is inherently invalidating. That kind of invalidation cannot be completely avoided; all you can do is package it up pretty skillfully without extra.

I'm guessing that he would have responded almost as badly (disappeared for months) even if you had done this.

Does this fit with what you did and what you know of him?

[patientandclear]

Reading through your replies left me with a feeling of great gratitude.  These points make so much sense, and allow me to let go of some of my doubts and self-recriminations, as well as to re-think the idea of amends in this scenario.  Immense thanks to all of you.

This is the key here for me: How deeply do you believe this part is true?

the imperfect way in which I made a completely reasonable request to share with my BPDex my feelings about how our ambiguous relationship was unfolding.

If your request WAS reasonable, that should be enough.

If this relationship is ever to have any balance or depth to it, he has to be able to listen to your requests, hear how you feel about things.

I've followed your story for a while, so I'm pretty sure it was indeed reasonable and real for you. And that he was incapable of responding well or constructively.

If you say your way of expressing it was imperfect, I'm not sure what that means. If "perfect" means saying something he's incapable of responding well to in a way that he responds positively to, that kind of perfection doesn't exist.

More likely "perfect" would be avoiding a tiny bit of invalidation that wasn't needed in what you said.

What you needed to say to him was that your needs didn't match his behavior... .and that is inherently invalidating. That kind of invalidation cannot be completely avoided; all you can do is package it up pretty skillfully without extra.

I'm guessing that he would have responded almost as badly (disappeared for months) even if you had done this.

Does this fit with what you did and what you know of him?

Interesting questions.  First, yes, I am certain that what I asked (to talk) was objectively reasonable.  Especially as he had challenged me for, in the past, assuming what he would say or think, and skipping the talking part, in my effort to not try to control him, to not ask him to change for me/us.  He had generally asked me to share what I need with him, rather than withdrawing or stepping down my level of engagement.  Specifically, he had assured me just weeks before that "we can have that talk whenever you need/want to."  So the request was not only reasonable but invited.

I think what went wrong for him is not that I asked to talk.  He doesn't mind telling me no (to put it mildly -- it might possibly be his very favorite thing to do).  I think what went wrong is that I conditioned future contact with me on him agreeing to talk.  ("If you find you are able to talk, let me know."  And no contact from me since.)

I'm sure this smacks of coercion, an ultimatum, control, force, loss of autonomy, if he were to capitulate and talk with me.  My daughter, who I think has some incipient BPD traits, recently told me that my insistence that she do a small household task was stripping her of her autonomy, she barely has any control over any aspect of her life, it was terrible and destructive for me to take that away from her, and it destroyed any interest she might otherwise have had in doing what I wanted her to do (because I was making her).  I had a flash of insight after the encounter with my kid, what my insistence on talking probably felt like for my ex.

I don't quite know what to do about this.  In my daughter's case I did make her do the task.  Because I am the mom and she is the kid and the request was reasonable and though I have compassion for her reaction, we can't run our house that way.  In the case of my ex and the requested talk ... .I've sort of taken the stance that, which I can feel compassion about his likely reaction, that is not something I should be saving him from or sorting out for him by undoing the reasonable request (that he invited).  If he feels resentment and thus is refusing to engage me or talk, and thus we are going to lose our connection ... .well, those are natural consequences.

That is SUCH a different response than my old response would have been, and also, different from some of the skills I see taught on the Staying boards, about not making it worse.  I did effectively set an ultimatum and I could probably have explained it differently ("I feel stuck because I really need to talk to you, and you've encouraged me to tell you when I am having difficulties with the way things are going or need clarification.  I hear you do not want to discuss this.  Do you have ideas about another way we can move forward?"  It seems like the approach in the parens is more in line with "not making it worse."

Had I done that instead, no, I don't think he would have disappeared for months (to answer your last question, GK).  I think he would have carried on effectively denying me the discussion I was asking, by endlessly reiterating by email that he is not interested in re-negotiating the terms of our r/ship -- but would be very excited for me to accept his terms without any further discussion.

Ironically, I actually wasn't trying to deliver the message that his behavior didn't match my needs.  I was trying to say that if we carried on as we were, my expectation going along with that would be commitment and monogamy ... .so if that is not what he wanted, we should not continue at that level of intimate connection.  I was trying to not judge where he might feel like going; rather, I wanted to just reiterate that for me (not necessarily for him), that level of intimacy comes along with certain other expectations.  Then he could gauge his behavior accordingly going forward.  I don't think it would have been a particularly scary conversation for him.  He would have been left with a bunch of possible choices.

[eeks]

Hi patientandclear,

To the point that atonement need not directly involve the other person: actually the concept the therapist mentioned was amends, not atonement. My understanding is that amends, in the 12 step model at least, must be done directly to the other involved person.

Even though I understand the idea of "squaring up one's own quarters", when you say you experience such intense resistance, feelings of injustice, "impotent fury"... .it sounds to me like there may be some emotional needs in you that are not met, and may need to be addressed first before you can approach the topic of amends.  

I don't mean that in a "you have to do it right" sense, more that you deserve to receive care, that it sounds like there is some healing and grieving of your past relationships that is "speaking to you" through your emotions, saying it is coming up now to be addressed.

Another thing that comes to my mind is you could try meditating, praying or whatever method you use to seek guidance, asking what amends would be appropriate for your ex... .and even... .what amends do you need and from whom?  Even if that person is unable or unwilling (or you do not wish to communicate with them for whatever reason), what words or actions from them would "make it right"?  I think I know what you mean by "impotent fury" and when I feel that, I often find there is fear underneath, and tender needs for care, intimacy, safety.  Can you experiment to see if that's so for you?  The purpose of figuring out what amends you would like, is not to resent them for not doing it, but to know what it is so that then you can imagine yourself fully receiving that.  Even ask your therapist to say the words, if that helps?

eeks

[Grey Kitty]

I think what went wrong is that I conditioned future contact with me on him agreeing to talk.  ("If you find you are able to talk, let me know."  And no contact from me since.)

[... .]

Had I done that instead, no, I don't think he would have disappeared for months (to answer your last question, GK).  I think he would have carried on effectively denying me the discussion I was asking, by endlessly reiterating by email that he is not interested in re-negotiating the terms of our r/ship -- but would be very excited for me to accept his terms without any further discussion.

Ironically, I actually wasn't trying to deliver the message that his behavior didn't match my needs.  I was trying to say that if we carried on as we were, my expectation going along with that would be commitment and monogamy

Unless I'm missing something, to my eye, this is 90~95% on him.

As they say, the phone works in both directions, and so does email.

You asked him to talk about something serious.

He had choices at that time. Even though he found it challenging and triggering, he could have:

Have the serious conversation with you.

 Ignore the serious conversation you asked for and talk about something else (the weather, perhaps?), continuing your friendship and ignoring the issue.

:'( Disappear for months. Again.

You also had a couple choices... .you could have contacted him (say a day later) about something else, perhaps as a way to reassure him that while you wanted the conversation you were still wanted him in your life. That window has closed now.

You now have the choice of what to do after he's given you months of silent treatment/rejection.

[patientandclear]

(just saw your post GK--will respond separately as am on a phone.) Thanks for those kind comments, eeks. I'm quite clear on the needed amends (to me, I mean). They're about false promises of safety for the purpose of self-gratification with no intent or capacity to make good on them).  But those amends aren't going to be given by the people who did those harms to me.

I've been working on those harms and the extra-damaging way the experience with my BPDex affected me as a result--for several years now. I suspect that is actually closely related to my body-based resistance to the suggestion of offering amends to this man.

As noted in my prior post, I do still have a strong sense that there were ways of navigating the situation we were in at the end that would not have blown this up--and also would not have abandoned myself. That is hard to make peace with, even if there is no wrongdoing on my part. It seems like it didn't have to be this way.

But maybe as Grey Kitty said, I am looking for a way to make it possible for him to hear that I need something from him that he cannot give. I need not to be engaged in an intimate dynamic with someone who does not feel any particular commitment to me and will not acknowledge the r/ship as what, to me, it is: a primary partnership. I also need monogamy. But ... .Seems like we could have found common group with him either increasing his tolerance for those acknowledgements over time, or is stepping the intimacy level back to match the level of commitment if any he was comfortable with. So the way I requested the talk and enforced my request with my absence pending us having it, may have cost me/us that.

[patientandclear]

I think what went wrong is that I conditioned future contact with me on him agreeing to talk.  ("If you find you are able to talk, let me know."  And no contact from me since.)

[... .]

Had I done that instead, no, I don't think he would have disappeared for months (to answer your last question, GK).  I think he would have carried on effectively denying me the discussion I was asking, by endlessly reiterating by email that he is not interested in re-negotiating the terms of our r/ship -- but would be very excited for me to accept his terms without any further discussion.

Ironically, I actually wasn't trying to deliver the message that his behavior didn't match my needs.  I was trying to say that if we carried on as we were, my expectation going along with that would be commitment and monogamy

Unless I'm missing something, to my eye, this is 90~95% on him.

As they say, the phone works in both directions, and so does email.

You asked him to talk about something serious.

He had choices at that time. Even though he found it challenging and triggering, he could have:

Have the serious conversation with you.

 Ignore the serious conversation you asked for and talk about something else (the weather, perhaps?), continuing your friendship and ignoring the issue.

:'( Disappear for months. Again.

You also had a couple choices... .you could have contacted him (say a day later) about something else, perhaps as a way to reassure him that while you wanted the conversation you were still wanted him in your life. That window has closed now.

You now have the choice of what to do after he's given you months of silent treatment/rejection.

Good inventory of the options we both had. For me, responding on other topics after I asked for the conversation and he turned me down, would have been a real abdication of my boundaries. The whole problem was that he was carrying on at our old level of intimacy despite withholding what I had said I needed to go there (commitment). So carrying on with our normal thing seems like it would send the message that I did not really mean it. And that he would lose nothing my dealing with my rare requests in this r/ship that way.

I don't think he actually had the choice to continue talking about other things while ignoring my request to talk. I was pretty clear that was not an option, and that we could continue only if he were willing to "talk." Had he just kept going on other topics, it would have been flatly ignoring my request. I pretty much set it up so he could stay in touch only by capitulating to my "demand" (for a conversation). I do t love that I left him with such stark choices only: capitulate and retain the r/ship; resist my request and it's done.

[Grey Kitty]

I pretty much set it up so he could stay in touch only by capitulating to my "demand" (for a conversation).

I don't see an atonement issue here.

I think that is an issue of your relationship needs and his relationship needs having so common ground that there is no relationship. It is sad indeed. But not really something that one party gets "blamed" for.

Anyhow, acknowledging at as an ultimatum, which you gave him and he (apparently) received it as, do you have regrets about it?

Do you wish you hadn't given him the ultimatum?

Do you wish he had responded the other way?

Do you think there was any room for compromise?

Or do you think you could have presented the ultimatum in a slightly better way, and gotten a different response? [I'm dubious]

[patientandclear]

My sense is there was room for compromise. He reacts initially badly to my requests (this is an established pattern). If I do not react dramatically and just give it time, and keep channels open, his feelings tend to settle and, if I do not demand it, he tends to offer a realignment that works for me.

He was saying no to talking, but in perfectly good spirits. That is not what prompted his disappearance. What prompted the disappearance was the ultimatum.

I do have regrets--but have mixed feelings about the regrets. I think there was room for the compromise I typed out a few posts back--something like "well, I'm stuck. I need to talk and you don't want to. Do you have any suggestions about how to move forward?" I doubt that would have elicited a negative response or disappearance. He was also motivated to not lose our thing--it was going well at the time.

My doubts about my regrets have to do with my own feelings of betrayal that he would ask me to make sure to talk to him if I felt bad; promise to talk if I needed it; then renege as soon as I tried to rely on that promise. The endless indulgence of that behavior doesn't feel great. After this happened I made a list of times he's made wonderful-sounding assurances about how safe I am with him, things he will do or extend to me to make me feel good/safe. These promises always fall through. I guess for me, this one was kind of a straw that broke the camel's back ... .But knowing him as I do, I also knew an ultimatum was not likely to go over well. Seems like there must have been some way to protect myself against this behavior that bothers me a lot -- without putting him in the exact posture which is so hard for him to accept.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not recalling that the realignments he has been offering worked all that well for you. (Please remind me of how they did.)

He seems unable to be a friend with you without pulling you into deep emotional intimacy. And once he does, you expect some kind of commitment and/or monogamy from him, which he refuses and rejects. By running away for the most part.

Do you leave him room to compromise? Absolutely, There is plenty of room to pick a middle ground of being a friend without that commitment and without that level of intimacy. I don't think he wants that compromise.

[patientandclear]

My theory would be that, had I not given him the easy "out" of resistance to the ultimatum, and just put the ball back in his court to problem-solve, it could have been a growth experience for us both.  He prefers the arrangement you outline above: he has intimate access with no acknowledgement and no commitment.  That does not work for me.  That is our tension.  But can we make progress, setting up an way of interacting that works for us both and allows growth, confidence-building and learning, if I did not approach it in this ultimatum-based way? We could have gone back to a level of communication that does not, to me, signal "this is my life partner." He could have decided if that worked for him or if he wanted to experiment with learning how to trust me more, how to problem-solve his certainty that if we were more to each other, it would all blow up super-painfully.  Who knows ... .but maybe that learning and development would have had the space to unfold.  That's what I'm afraid I cost us both by being so "OK then, let me know if you change your mind."

[gotbushels]

Hi patientandclear 

Just going to add a voice to the area in the room where people are questioning the effectiveness of the action in your main question. I saw a lot of things that are striking to me.

"is atonement appropriate?"

I think because it DOES force us to just deal with our own part, even if there are counterveiling wrongs they did to us. It is an actual taking of responsibility for our part.

I want to challenge the idea that it must be done directly to the other involved person.

Why does telling him embody an "actual" taking of responsibility to you? Put another way, you basically want to use him as a participant to force you to deal with your own issue. Why?

I'd like to return to your original motive.

For many months now I have struggled with regret over the imperfect way in which I made a completely reasonable request to share with my BPDex my feelings about how our ambiguous relationship was unfolding. He reacted poorly and we haven't communicated since. We had been doing well and it feels like a big loss (again).

What benefit do you get out of this, and how does it happen?

GK brought up forgiveness as a possibility. Could this help you?

I am so torn about this, I sense there may be a key here to unlocking what is making it so hard for me to accept what happened.

"is atonement appropriate?"

I highly doubt it'll get you any closer to finding your keys.

[patientandclear]

Do you mean what benefit do I get from the struggle with regret? I don't know. It has been unshakeable for years and especially since my ex made a big push to re-establish contact a year ago, but did and said things that made me feel that was not emotionally safe for me.  The intractable nature of the regret is the reason for my initial curiosity about whether gestures/statements of amends might help, when the therapist I was discussing this with suggested it. (Weirdly, to someone's point up the thread, yes, this therapist is a group leader for a Friends and Family DBT group I am doing for people who love pwBPD. The stated focus of my work there is my kid, who has at least incipient BPD traits. But I was discussing my regrets re my ex--especially because there are other people in the group who have stayed with their BPD partners, and I don't feel I did all I could to make that possible, I suppose, and I feel some envy over the path not taken as I hear them discussing difficult struggles with their partners who are still in their lives.)

I don't see how forgiving him will assist with my regret. Forgiving myself is the issue on the table and I have not been able to do that, and am looking for a way to resolve that.

[Grey Kitty]

We could have gone back to a level of communication that does not, to me, signal "this is my life partner."

I think he normally agrees to this, then pushes over that boundary. That's your normal pattern.

The only way I see this working is if YOU enforce that limit, not him, and he then has the choice whether he wants that level.

He could have decided if that worked for him or if he wanted to experiment with learning how to trust me more, how to problem-solve his certainty that if we were more to each other, it would all blow up super-painfully.

Yes, he could. Has he made progress that way?

Who knows ... .but maybe that learning and development would have had the space to unfold. That's what I'm afraid I cost us both by being so "OK then, let me know if you change your mind."

I'm thinking that he participated in this choice to end the r/s instead of pursuing growth as much as you did, if not more. He chose to run. So the cost isn't all on you. I wouldn't even give you more than 50%.

Overall, here's my thoughts on ultimatums like this:

• You can word them a bit better (or worse). Yours was better than many.



• It is a big mistake to use one this when it isn't a relationship-critical issue. (This would be worth an apology!)



• Stating it is not engraving the word of god into stone tablets. He could take either choice. He could also respond to you that he thinks that putting him in that position is invalid. You can back down if he gives you a good reason or if you just change your mind.

[eeks]

But I was discussing my regrets re my ex--especially because there are other people in the group who have stayed with their BPD partners, and I don't feel I did all I could to make that possible, I suppose, and I feel some envy over the path not taken as I hear them discussing difficult struggles with their partners who are still in their lives.)

Aha.  Do you think maybe hearing them work on their struggles with pwBPD partners is increasing the temptation to engage in the "what-ifs"?

Are you in a relationship now?  If not, is it possible that your regret is not so much for your BPD ex, but because you're longing to be in a relationship in general (not necessarily with him)? 

I don't see how forgiving him will assist with my regret. Forgiving myself is the issue on the table and I have not been able to do that, and am looking for a way to resolve that.

I can see this being challenging.  I personally don't find that reason works with self-forgiveness (e.g. "other people did worse" "I did the best I could at the time" etc.).  However, there has to be some way to see past events from a different perspective.  And for me, that tends to come from "non-ordinary" experiences (dreams, visualization exercises or other mind-body awareness techniques)

What are you having difficulty forgiving yourself for?  Just the way you approached that final conversation, or are there other things?

Does this have (even a little bit) to do with the difficulty of letting go of the idea that "if only I had done things differently, the relationship would have worked out"? 

[gotbushels]

Hi patientandclear

Do you mean what benefit do I get from the struggle with regret?

No I'm sorry that was not clear. I meant ,what benefit do you get from the act of to "share with my BPDex my feelings?" I meant, when you perform the sharing, what feeling do you want out of it?  You seem to actually have just answered this, when you shared this:

The intractable nature of the regret is the reason for my initial curiosity about whether gestures/statements of amends might help, when the therapist I was discussing this with suggested it.

Releasing regret is then probably the beneficial feeling you're looking for. The release of regret has a feeling. It's sometimes associated to "completion" and "progress" feelings. Based on what you said, it's causing you to be most interested in interacting with him, compared to other feelings you may have.

Let's pay attention to that regret since it's apparently causing these offshoot actions.

I don't see how forgiving him will assist with my regret. Forgiving myself is the issue on the table and I have not been able to do that, and am looking for a way to resolve that.

Let's see if we can get clear using feelings again. Forgiveness is akin to the act of releasing pain. The pain usually flows from things we see as "not right". Regret is a sort of pain that comes from something one has done, or didn't do.

Therefore they are similar.

Forgiveness can occur on yourself for something that you did, that you mentioned is on the table; or forgiveness can occur on yourself for something he did (forgiving him). Regret is a pain that flows from the same source as the first type of forgiveness, i.e., it's centred on something you did. So you are right, forgiving him isn't a clear way to forgive yourself.

Let's figure out where the source of your pain is coming from. Let's look at the pain you cause yourself (i.e., the pain of regret).

What are the specific acts that you regret with your ex? Does it have anything to do with what eeks's highlighted:

But I was discussing my regrets re my ex--especially because there are other people in the group who have stayed with their BPD partners, and I don't feel I did all I could to make that possible, I suppose, and I feel some envy over the path not taken as I hear them discussing difficult struggles with their partners who are still in their lives.)

Try to pay attention to and describe, the main and specific acts that you feel you "should have" or "shouldn't have" done. Focus on the point of the action or the decision.

[patientandclear]

Does this have (even a little bit) to do with the difficulty of letting go of the idea that "if only I had done things differently, the relationship would have worked out"? 

Oh yes.  It has everything to do with that.  That thought occupies large chunks of every day of my life.

[patientandclear]

Let's figure out where the source of your pain is coming from. Let's look at the pain you cause yourself (i.e., the pain of regret).

What are the specific acts that you regret with your ex? Does it have anything to do with what eeks's highlighted:

But I was discussing my regrets re my ex--especially because there are other people in the group who have stayed with their BPD partners, and I don't feel I did all I could to make that possible, I suppose, and I feel some envy over the path not taken as I hear them discussing difficult struggles with their partners who are still in their lives.)

Try to pay attention to and describe, the main and specific acts that you feel you "should have" or "shouldn't have" done. Focus on the point of the action or the decision.

I regret (ha!) to say that there are scores of pages on BPD Family cataloging the specific acts I feel I should have or shouldn't have done.

I should have been validating when he first freaked out when we were so in love, and waited for him to recover and get his feet back under him.  Instead, I took him at his word, concluded I must have been completely wrong in my understanding about the basis and depth of our love, and concluded relatively quickly (about three weeks) that he actually rejected core things about me (my kid and my parenting) and we needed to be done.  Later I learned that his freakout was temporary.  A few months later he was talking like I was the one who broke up with him.  Probably had I merely validated his scared/scary feelings this all could have blown over pretty fast.  (And would have repeated, but again, validate, wait, subside ... .I could have done that.  I didn't.  His major conclusion from all his relationships, as he confided last year, is: "no one can deal with my reactions."  Well, I don't really have a problem with his reactions.  I had a problem with the defensive definition of our r/ship he's engaged in since then, to ward off the possibility of great hurt that he says is inevitable because I will reject him after another of his "reactions."  If I had not allowed the whole thing to go over the cliff -- if I had just validated and waited for his panic to subside -- he would have evidence that I CAN deal with his "reactions."

I should not have let him go when he got squirrelly about getting back together, which he had begged me to consider.  I felt his squirrelly-ness, and got scared and brought things to an end.  I could have been braver.  I could have stood still through his wave of fear and doubt.  My own past makes this very hard -- but if I had, things may have taken a very different path.

I should not have completely shut him down when he wanted to reconnect last year, just because he started again to use the word "friends" after I shared with him that some minor thing he did felt hurtful.  These were just border skirmishes and we both really wanted to figure our dynamic out and restore our quite lovely connection.  I enforced a boundary around "friends" super literally.  How I did it hurt him terribly.

And this time -- I could have held the line on my need to talk, without making it an ultimatum, as detailed in this thread.

Those are the major points.

[gotbushels]

That's a lot of things that you regret patientandclear. Thanks for outlining the major points of regret you've looked at. At least now you have a summary of your scores of pages!  Let's have a nibble.

Let's figure out where the source of your pain is coming from. Let's look at the pain you cause yourself (i.e., the pain of regret).

What are the specific acts that you regret with your ex? Does it have anything to do with what eeks's highlighted:

But I was discussing my regrets re my ex--especially because there are other people in the group who have stayed with their BPD partners, and I don't feel I did all I could to make that possible, I suppose, and I feel some envy over the path not taken as I hear them discussing difficult struggles with their partners who are still in their lives.)

Try to pay attention to and describe, the main and specific acts that you feel you "should have" or "shouldn't have" done. Focus on the point of the action or the decision.

I regret (ha!) to say that there are scores of pages on BPD Family cataloging the specific acts I feel I should have or shouldn't have done.

I should have been validating when he first freaked out when we were so in love, and waited for him to recover and get his feet back under him.  Instead, I took him at his word, concluded I must have been completely wrong in my understanding about the basis and depth of our love, and concluded relatively quickly (about three weeks) that he actually rejected core things about me (my kid and my parenting) and we needed to be done. 

Why did you take him at his word?  Why did you respond this way instead of, as you suggested, (1) validating and (2) waiting for him to recover?

I'm politically silent but there was a debate recently about the different in difficulty of diagnosing the issue and figuring out how to deal with it. I'd like to take a positive stance and challenge you to figure this out  To help me walk with you on your journey, here are some other things you can think about. Why did you conclude so quickly that you were wrong on the (1) basis of your love, conclude so quickly that (2) he really was rejecting you, and conclude so quickly that you (3) "needed to be done." You've given them as reasons of your response, but in hindsight, why did you, or would you today, prefer that over the two more effective actions (validating; waiting for him to recover) that you now know about?

Focus solely on this first thing of "his first freak out" and "validation" upon that event. Don't worry about the other stuff too much. Now based on that, knowing what you know now, how would you do things differently, today and in the future?

[patientandclear]

I took him at his word because I was honoring and respecting what he said. I thought he knew his own mind. I had never heard of BPD.

I concluded I must have been wrong about the basis of our love because suddenly he was saying the opposite of things he had originally said to make me feel safe. At the outset he said he'd be infinitely patient while I figured out dynamics btwn him and my daughter. Then pretty much the first time things did not go well btwn them, he decided he needed to be done. Years later I can see his fear and jealousy and need for reassurance, some of which stemmed from his own dreadful childhood experiences. At the time though, I mainly saw that the assurances he'd made and portrait he'd portrayed had given way completely.

I felt he was rejecting me because he rejected me. I offered to work it out. He said he'd think about it because the separation made him so sad--then came back the next day and reiterated it had to be done. While he said our love was amazing, that he still felt all he had told me he felt, that he would always miss me, he conveyed that he was "stuck" and had realized he would rather be alone. (Shortly, however, after we discussed trying again and he said he would work on his issues in therapy and developed those squirrelly feelings, and I told him we should take enough to space for him to decide what he really wanted, he started pursuing his ex-gf, a woman he had denied romantic feelings for, a young co-worker of mine. So the "I want to be alone" thing was another piece that I took at face value but was wrong about.)

I concluded that we needed to be done because he said he "deeply disapproved of" my way of parenting my kid, and that ultimately (he said) I would be faced with the choice of changing my parenting or losing him, and that would be too awful. So better to end it then and there, he decided (unilaterally, without talking to me). He also said he had realized (after assuring me to the contrary and without discussing with me how we could arrange our lives so he didn't become an instant de facto step parent to my kid) that he had realized engaging with me given my kid was more than he could take on, given that he had become used to a solo life and his kids were grown and he found it difficult to parent them through what he described as a contentious divorce.

Basically, I took him at his word about all these things because I thought he was saying them because he meant them. Could not imagine he would say them if he didn't--there was too much at stake. I told him I was open to other approaches that would accommodate his feelings; that he did not need to be a step dad; that I would be glad to listen to his opinions about my parenting and make changes when I agreed with him; and so on. But aside from telling him I was open, which he responded to by not changing his mind but apparently hoping I would ask to meet, beg, whatever, I let him decide what he wanted and I respected his choices. It hurt phenomenally. I walked around for two weeks looking at my kid feeling that she or my parenting had cost me my life partner.

About a month later I realized it was more complicated. He said he was puzzled I did not ask to meet; he said he did not know how to meet because we didn't even have things to exchange yet (I had left nothing at his place). That seemed to reflect a pattern of meeting up after breakups by giving things back, and restarting that way. When we did finally meet, he wanted to try again and with no really attention to what had gone wrong. It was as if he did not take his own feelings seriously (and how much damage his reaction to his feelings had caused). And had I not sent a NC message to which he replied about how devastated he was, he would seemingly have made no love to have that repair talk. None of this looked to me like the behavior of someone who wanted to be with me, and do what it took to make that work.

I now think that, had I not pushed for definition of what was going on, not taken it all so literally, and waited, his feelings would have stabilized and we could have gone on. Till the next time, when I could have not taken it personally, waited till it stabilized, and gone on.

[HurtinNW]

I took him at his word because I was honoring and respecting what he said. I thought he knew his own mind. I had never heard of BPD.

I concluded I must have been wrong about the basis of our love because suddenly he was saying the opposite of things he had originally said to make me feel safe. At the outset he said he'd be infinitely patient while I figured out dynamics btwn him and my daughter. Then pretty much the first time things did not go well btwn them, he decided he needed to be done. Years later I can see his fear and jealousy and need for reassurance, some of which stemmed from his own dreadful childhood experiences. At the time though, I mainly saw that the assurances he'd made and portrait he'd portrayed had given way completely.

I felt he was rejecting me because he rejected me. I offered to work it out. He said he'd think about it because the separation made him so sad--then came back the next day and reiterated it had to be done. While he said our love was amazing, that he still felt all he had told me he felt, that he would always miss me, he conveyed that he was "stuck" and had realized he would rather be alone. (Shortly, however, after we discussed trying again and he said he would work on his issues in therapy and developed those squirrelly feelings, and I told him we should take enough to space for him to decide what he really wanted, he started pursuing his ex-gf, a woman he had denied romantic feelings for, a young co-worker of mine. So the "I want to be alone" thing was another piece that I took at face value but was wrong about.)

I concluded that we needed to be done because he said he "deeply disapproved of" my way of parenting my kid, and that ultimately (he said) I would be faced with the choice of changing my parenting or losing him, and that would be too awful. So better to end it then and there, he decided (unilaterally, without talking to me). He also said he had realized (after assuring me to the contrary and without discussing with me how we could arrange our lives so he didn't become an instant de facto step parent to my kid) that he had realized engaging with me given my kid was more than he could take on, given that he had become used to a solo life and his kids were grown and he found it difficult to parent them through what he described as a contentious divorce.

Basically, I took him at his word about all these things because I thought he was saying them because he meant them. Could not imagine he would say them if he didn't--there was too much at stake. I told him I was open to other approaches that would accommodate his feelings; that he did not need to be a step dad; that I would be glad to listen to his opinions about my parenting and make changes when I agreed with him; and so on. But aside from telling him I was open, which he responded to by not changing his mind but apparently hoping I would ask to meet, beg, whatever, I let him decide what he wanted and I respected his choices. It hurt phenomenally. I walked around for two weeks looking at my kid feeling that she or my parenting had cost me my life partner.

About a month later I realized it was more complicated. He said he was puzzled I did not ask to meet; he said he did not know how to meet because we didn't even have things to exchange yet (I had left nothing at his place). That seemed to reflect a pattern of meeting up after breakups by giving things back, and restarting that way. When we did finally meet, he wanted to try again and with no really attention to what had gone wrong. It was as if he did not take his own feelings seriously (and how much damage his reaction to his feelings had caused). And had I not sent a NC message to which he replied about how devastated he was, he would seemingly have made no love to have that repair talk. None of this looked to me like the behavior of someone who wanted to be with me, and do what it took to make that work.

I now think that, had I not pushed for definition of what was going on, not taken it all so literally, and waited, his feelings would have stabilized and we could have gone on. Till the next time, when I could have not taken it personally, waited till it stabilized, and gone on.

patientandclear, I understand the regrets. I wake every night and morning ruminating, thinking, trying to figure out my side of the street as well as what happened. I have a lot of regrets too.

A few questions come up from your post... .

Given what you describe above, do you feel that would have been a good relationship model for your daughter? Her mother having to take contradictory and hurtful behavior from her stepfather, including the pursuit of other women, without ever taking it "personally"?

Would that have been a sustainable or rewarding relationship for you?

I think there is a difference between practicing the tools here, which include boundaries, and envisioning a dynamic which essentially means permanent eggshell land. In the scenario you've described, what would your boundaries be? Would there ever be a place where you would draw a line of no return?

[patientandclear]

Thanks so much for your, as ever, compassionate  and insightful reply.

While I have a ton of regret and self doubt about, especially, those points I laid out in response to the urging from bushels, this thread was about my specific regret about not being softer about how I communicated current boundaries. Yes, there would be a line (in respond to your question, Hurt); there are always lines and I would not want a life where I gave those up to stay in the r/ship. However, it's not always clear to me when the line is supposed to be "I am giving up on this person" versus "I am going to communicate and act in ways consistent with enforcing a boundary; but I don't have to be done with the person; even though it's likely the person will keep acting in this way."

My current active regret (as opposed to the regrets about earlier stages that I wish I could ditch but cannot--I know consciously why I made those decisions and they were good reasons) ... .the current active regret is that, once I got less scared of him hurting me again and more confident, I decided to apply boundaries but hang in there, so we could both get the benefits of that learning process. Who knows what the long term benefits could be. But nonetheless, when I asked to talk and he said no, I applied a boundary that was sort of the opposite of "but hang in there." I did it ultimatum-style and no doubt triggering all his defensive fear of being controlled, manipulated, his need for self-determination, and his need to protect against potential loss of someone important to him. Why? Why could I not have asked for him to join me in problem-solving? I suspect that would have felt very different to him.

The guidance in DBT about DEARMAN communication haunts me. I didn't negotiate and I sort of prematurely called the question after he twice declined to talk. The counterpoints I have also learned here, though, as well as in Stop Caretaking and in other thoughtful sources, along with the insightful words of some people wBPD, are "don't save people from the consequences of their own mistakes; let people have and play out their mistakes;" and the importance of honoring the self-determination of someone with BPD. That seems at odds with the teaching about "don't take it personally" and essentially letting a lot of the behaviors roll off. I find myself eternally confused by seemingly contradictory guidance about when to remain willing and engaged despite behavior that is objectively destructive to a healthy r/ship.

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, you seem very stuck to me.

You regret how you enforced the boundary.

You don't seem willing/able to apologize to him for it and attempt to reconcile with him.

You are very clear that you cannot safely be in a relationship with him of the sort that you and he have had for the last year, which seem to mostly resemble his terms. (emotional intimacy w/o commitment or monogamy, and likely with months of silence now and again.)

I see you hurting. A great deal. 

How do you see yourself getting unstuck? (Or do you see yourself as stuck?)

[patientandclear]

That is all entirely accurate GK. If you go back to the initial post, that was the premise of this thread. I am stuck and nothing seems to resolve it. This therapist (not my individual therapist, the leader of a DBT group I am doing as the mom of a kid with incipient BPD traits or similar attachment issues) suggested I consider making amends for the way I asked to talk and enforced a boundary. Considering that (as a way to maybe get un-stuck) is what let me to ask the question about whether amends (what I mistakenly initially called atonement) are appropriate--because I encountered so much emotional resistance to the idea when I began to explore it.

If amends are not appropriate (and I really value the thoughts several of you shared at the top of the thread about that--they seem correct to me) ... .then I am back to the starting point of hurting and being stuck. Yes, it still hurts a ton. Neither time nor therapy nor any way of thinking about it anyone has yet suggested seem to budge that.

What I particularly don't like about having set up an ultimatum situation is that now I don't feel I can resume contact. It would send a very confusing message to him. You know how people sometimes comment on the Staying boards that, when you draw your line or set a boundary, you need to hang onto that spot for dear life--the exact location of the line being less important than the fact that there is one? That is what this feels like. I don't feel like, having taken this position, I can undo it and expect him to take away any message other than "I can do whatever I want and she will never, in the end, maintain the line she says she is serious about." That seems bad. And that's why I wish I had framed this differently, so both he and I had an easier time working past this impasse.