Contact/Advice

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello, everyone. I hope you are all doing well today. I wanted to write because after about two weeks of not hearing from my ex, I received a long email and am struggling a bit as to what to do. I tried not to open it but the temptation was too great. I have not spoken to her myself for nearly two months. There's a lot of flowery nice sounding stuff in it - but also some things that are projecting the issues onto me without acknowledgment of the horrid things she did. I spoke with my T about it a bit, and she said the same. That all of it is about me and not her taking any responsibility. Based on the content of it, she seems to want to hear me give her some admission that I am not a nice person who would be there for someone. She needs to be the victim. So, it's either a). I truly loved her and still want to be with her; or b). I never loved her and used her. The answer is certainly not b, but it's also not entirely a. I know that I loved her and had deep, sincere feelings for her. But I simply can't trust her words and am afraid what would happen should we start up again. It was so painful (and still is) to have gone through what we did. My T also suggested there is nothing wrong with me giving a simple, concrete reply of saying "I wish you the best but please understand that our relationship is over." I can't bring myself to do it -- also, I think that giving her anything to chew on would result in continued contact.

I am going to share the email with you all, edited down a bit, because it would be helpful for me to hear your thoughts. Here it is:

I know the feeling of not being interested in someone and feeling uncomfortable when they get in touch, and I'm sorry if that's how you've been feeling as you've received my communication. Please understand that I wish you no harm, quite the opposite, and that I simply feel like I still have a lot to say and ask you. As we've been unable to talk, this seems to be my only option in terms of expressing my feelings to you. I am wondering more and more if there is any point to expressing said feelings, yet here I am.

I've felt discouraged after sharing the information and feelings I've shared with you and hearing nothing back, and after you blocked me on facebook and gchat last week. And yet I simply still love you. Perhaps I will my whole life, whether or not you ever speak to me again. As hurt and as angry and as confused as I've been, that always was and remains the case. I have tried to better understand why you've reacted to the situation(s) we underwent in the ways that you have, and I continue to desire and work towards real improvement, concretely, every day.

I genuinely care about how you are doing. I hope every day that you are well, even when I feel angry or confused, and that you are trying new things, still seeing your therapist, finding insight about yourself, and moving towards happiness. Regardless of some of the things I said to you when I was struggling, I respect the guy I knew and, as I've said, I believe that you are so very capable of being the best kind of person. I have seen you be one of the strongest, most sensitive (in a good way), and most upstanding people I have ever met. Not to mention one of the most attractive.

Maybe I've been wrong about us for a long time and that's the larger truth I have not yet been fully able to see. I acknowledge that as a real possibility given the way in which things devolved, just like the real possibility that you and I will never speak again. Even if we never get back together, though, it would be helpful for me to ask you some questions, for my own peace of mind and ability to move forward. I'm not sure where you stand on that idea, if you don't think I deserve even that or if you feel like it would be too difficult for you. But it would absolutely be beneficial for me, because I do hope to move forward and refrain from making the same mistakes in the future.I would really appreciate if you could find it in yourself to help me in this way.

Please try to understand my experience and perspective. Please understand that the way you have been acting seems completely at odds with who I believed you were and fell in love with, and that is, in part, why this break up has been so devastating and why I continue to reach out. I believed you would always be there. It would help me to hear from you that I was wrong from the beginning, perhaps, that we never had what I thought we did and that I had you pegged as someone you are not. Did you simply decide you didn't want to put in the work that a relationship requires? Did you simply not want to deal with my anxiety issues? Was I simply not worth it? Were there just too many other things going on with you? Was my apartment too small and unimpressive? I remain in the dark. I have been unable to connect with anyone new, because my heart and mind are plagued by confusion surrounding our situation, on top of my still loving you. Without hearing your explanation of things, it's difficult for me to believe that your love could just disintegrate, and so quickly. So please, for the sake of moving forward, if you care or have ever cared about my well-being, let me at least get some closure. It would benefit you, too, assuming you don't like receiving these emails. What good is this silence doing you? And at this cost to me?

Right now, when I set aside the negative feelings that come to call, what remains is that I connected with you unexpectedly and quickly and, I felt, genuinely. I was happy with you. And I loved you and I saw you and felt seen. Putting my hurt and anger aside, the love is still there, the desire for you to be well and do well is still there, and the hope and trust that love is more powerful than fear, that it's worth expressing, that you and I are both good people, that there is no one I'd rather get bagels with, that I would never be indifferent to you... .it's there and I can't ignore it or shoe it away, as much as we both might wish I could. And I suppose the plain truth is that you don't love me anymore, but I really would like to understand why.

Always here for you.

[Fateful]

Hello, everyone. I hope you are all doing well today. I wanted to write because after about two weeks of not hearing from my ex, I received a long email and am struggling a bit as to what to do. I tried not to open it but the temptation was too great. I have not spoken to her myself for nearly two months. There's a lot of flowery nice sounding stuff in it - but also some things that are projecting the issues onto me without acknowledgment of the horrid things she did. I spoke with my T about it a bit, and she said the same. That all of it is about me and not her taking any responsibility. Based on the content of it, she seems to want to hear me give her some admission that I am not a nice person who would be there for someone. She needs to be the victim. So, it's either a). I truly loved her and still want to be with her; or b). I never loved her and used her. The answer is certainly not b, but it's also not entirely a. I know that I loved her and had deep, sincere feelings for her. But I simply can't trust her words and am afraid what would happen should we start up again. It was so painful (and still is) to have gone through what we did. My T also suggested there is nothing wrong with me giving a simple, concrete reply of saying "I wish you the best but please understand that our relationship is over." I can't bring myself to do it -- also, I think that giving her anything to chew on would result in continued contact.

I am going to share the email with you all, edited down a bit, because it would be helpful for me to hear your thoughts. Here it is:

I know the feeling of not being interested in someone and feeling uncomfortable when they get in touch, and I'm sorry if that's how you've been feeling as you've received my communication. Please understand that I wish you no harm, quite the opposite, and that I simply feel like I still have a lot to say and ask you. As we've been unable to talk, this seems to be my only option in terms of expressing my feelings to you. I am wondering more and more if there is any point to expressing said feelings, yet here I am.

I've felt discouraged after sharing the information and feelings I've shared with you and hearing nothing back, and after you blocked me on facebook and gchat last week. And yet I simply still love you. Perhaps I will my whole life, whether or not you ever speak to me again. As hurt and as angry and as confused as I've been, that always was and remains the case. I have tried to better understand why you've reacted to the situation(s) we underwent in the ways that you have, and I continue to desire and work towards real improvement, concretely, every day.

I genuinely care about how you are doing. I hope every day that you are well, even when I feel angry or confused, and that you are trying new things, still seeing your therapist, finding insight about yourself, and moving towards happiness. Regardless of some of the things I said to you when I was struggling, I respect the guy I knew and, as I've said, I believe that you are so very capable of being the best kind of person. I have seen you be one of the strongest, most sensitive (in a good way), and most upstanding people I have ever met. Not to mention one of the most attractive.

Maybe I've been wrong about us for a long time and that's the larger truth I have not yet been fully able to see. I acknowledge that as a real possibility given the way in which things devolved, just like the real possibility that you and I will never speak again. Even if we never get back together, though, it would be helpful for me to ask you some questions, for my own peace of mind and ability to move forward. I'm not sure where you stand on that idea, if you don't think I deserve even that or if you feel like it would be too difficult for you. But it would absolutely be beneficial for me, because I do hope to move forward and refrain from making the same mistakes in the future.I would really appreciate if you could find it in yourself to help me in this way.

Please try to understand my experience and perspective. Please understand that the way you have been acting seems completely at odds with who I believed you were and fell in love with, and that is, in part, why this break up has been so devastating and why I continue to reach out. I believed you would always be there. It would help me to hear from you that I was wrong from the beginning, perhaps, that we never had what I thought we did and that I had you pegged as someone you are not. Did you simply decide you didn't want to put in the work that a relationship requires? Did you simply not want to deal with my anxiety issues? Was I simply not worth it? Were there just too many other things going on with you? Was my apartment too small and unimpressive? I remain in the dark. I have been unable to connect with anyone new, because my heart and mind are plagued by confusion surrounding our situation, on top of my still loving you. Without hearing your explanation of things, it's difficult for me to believe that your love could just disintegrate, and so quickly. So please, for the sake of moving forward, if you care or have ever cared about my well-being, let me at least get some closure. It would benefit you, too, assuming you don't like receiving these emails. What good is this silence doing you? And at this cost to me?

Right now, when I set aside the negative feelings that come to call, what remains is that I connected with you unexpectedly and quickly and, I felt, genuinely. I was happy with you. And I loved you and I saw you and felt seen. Putting my hurt and anger aside, the love is still there, the desire for you to be well and do well is still there, and the hope and trust that love is more powerful than fear, that it's worth expressing, that you and I are both good people, that there is no one I'd rather get bagels with, that I would never be indifferent to you... .it's there and I can't ignore it or shoe it away, as much as we both might wish I could. And I suppose the plain truth is that you don't love me anymore, but I really would like to understand why.

Always here for you.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Fateful,

Well, if I received a letter like this it would certainly mess with my mind and certainly my process of detaching.  It would feel like my heart and mind were tearing apart.

What I have come to understand with my ex is that it is more important to listen to his behavior, not his words.  When I have thought in terms of behaviors, I see things so much differently and his words do not match.  This really helped me to understand what is the truth vs what he wanted the truth to be or wanted to present to me as the truth.

Do you see any incongruencies in what she is expressing in his email compared to the behavior she exhibited while you have known her?

Do you think maybe the letter is one big 'pull' in the push/pull dynamic and she knew she had to go over the top with her pull and make it dramatic and big?

SF

[WoundedBibi]

Hello, everyone. I hope you are all doing well today. I wanted to write because after about two weeks of not hearing from my ex, I received a long email and am struggling a bit as to what to do. I tried not to open it but the temptation was too great. I have not spoken to her myself for nearly two months. There's a lot of flowery nice sounding stuff in it - but also some things that are projecting the issues onto me without acknowledgment of the horrid things she did. I spoke with my T about it a bit, and she said the same. That all of it is about me and not her taking any responsibility. Based on the content of it, she seems to want to hear me give her some admission that I am not a nice person who would be there for someone. She needs to be the victim. So, it's either a). I truly loved her and still want to be with her; or b). I never loved her and used her. The answer is certainly not b, but it's also not entirely a. I know that I loved her and had deep, sincere feelings for her. But I simply can't trust her words and am afraid what would happen should we start up again. It was so painful (and still is) to have gone through what we did. My T also suggested there is nothing wrong with me giving a simple, concrete reply of saying "I wish you the best but please understand that our relationship is over." I can't bring myself to do it -- also, I think that giving her anything to chew on would result in continued contact.

Just to make sure I had the right story in mind I read your earlier posts and your introduction. I remember reading it back then and trying to imagine your utter panic as you were basically kept captive by her.

Yes, you loved her. No, you cannot trust her. Yes, you should be afraid of what would happen if you tried again. Kept captive. Remember that.

Giving her anything to chew on would result in continued contact; she would need to process it after chewing and there is only one person to discuss and chew it over with. You.

I think the advice from your T is very good. And it is true. You wish her the best. Your relationship is over. What is stopping you from saying it?

Now let's look at this email...

I am going to share the email with you all, edited down a bit, because it would be helpful for me to hear your thoughts. Here it is:

I know the feeling of not being interested in someone and feeling uncomfortable when they get in touch, and I'm sorry if that's how you've been feeling as you've received my communication. Please understand that I wish you no harm, quite the opposite, and that I simply feel like I still have a lot to say and ask you. As we've been unable to talk, this seems to be my only option in terms of expressing my feelings to you. I am wondering more and more if there is any point to expressing said feelings, yet here I am.

I've felt discouraged after sharing the information and feelings I've shared with you and hearing nothing back, and after you blocked me on facebook and gchat last week. And yet I simply still love you. Perhaps I will my whole life, whether or not you ever speak to me again. As hurt and as angry and as confused as I've been, that always was and remains the case. I have tried to better understand why you've reacted to the situation(s) we underwent in the ways that you have, and I continue to desire and work towards real improvement, concretely, every day.

I genuinely care about how you are doing. I hope every day that you are well, even when I feel angry or confused, and that you are trying new things, still seeing your therapist, finding insight about yourself, and moving towards happiness. Regardless of some of the things I said to you when I was struggling, I respect the guy I knew and, as I've said, I believe that you are so very capable of being the best kind of person. I have seen you be one of the strongest, most sensitive (in a good way), and most upstanding people I have ever met. Not to mention one of the most attractive.

Maybe I've been wrong about us for a long time and that's the larger truth I have not yet been fully able to see. I acknowledge that as a real possibility given the way in which things devolved, just like the real possibility that you and I will never speak again. Even if we never get back together, though, it would be helpful for me to ask you some questions, for my own peace of mind and ability to move forward. I'm not sure where you stand on that idea, if you don't think I deserve even that or if you feel like it would be too difficult for you. But it would absolutely be beneficial for me, because I do hope to move forward and refrain from making the same mistakes in the future.I would really appreciate if you could find it in yourself to help me in this way.

So far it all seems quite sweet and as if she really wants to understand. BUT a bit victim-y, as if situations happen TO her and she is not an active participant in the 'situations you underwent'. Although she does admit to making mistakes. So far reasonably good and an email you would feel the urge to reply to.

Please try to understand my experience and perspective. Please understand that the way you have been acting seems completely at odds with who I believed you were and fell in love with, and that is, in part, why this break up has been so devastating and why I continue to reach out.

Her perspective only. Makes sense to a degree, she's writing it. What stands out to me, but maybe that's me it's so general. There are no examples of her perspective or the way you acted. Or the way you were before. Without specifics it could be written by me about my BPDex instead of your BPDex about you...

I believed you would always be there.

Going a bit fast... Not very realistic...

It would help me to hear from you that I was wrong from the beginning, perhaps, that we never had what I thought we did

Poor me. You didn't love me

and that I had you pegged as someone you are not.

Poor me. You're an a... hole and I have poor people skills.

Did you simply decide you didn't want to put in the work that a relationship requires?

Poor me. You're a lazy a... hole.

Did you simply not want to deal with my anxiety issues?

Poor me. You're an insensitive a... hole.

Was I simply not worth it?

Poor me. You're a people using a... hole

Were there just too many other things going on with you?

Poor me. You were a distracted a... hole.

Was my apartment too small and unimpressive?

Poor me. You're a shallow a... hole

I remain in the dark.

Here I have to take a breather... .I know she has some serious issues to say the least, if she has BPD she can really have blocked or forgotten the episode where she would not let you leave even though the morning after she did realize what she did was *very* wrong... But she did keep you captive. Yes, you could have walked out, she did not have a gun to your head. You have your issues, but those are not the issue at this point in this thread.

I have been unable to connect with anyone new, because my heart and mind are plagued by confusion surrounding our situation, on top of my still loving you. Without hearing your explanation of things, it's difficult for me to believe that your love could just disintegrate, and so quickly. So please, for the sake of moving forward, if you care or have ever cared about my well-being, let me at least get some closure.

Without the context this is a lovely piece. Would in itself make you send a proper reply. If it wasn't for the rest of the email.

It would benefit you, too, assuming you don't like receiving these emails.

Enter threat! "If you don't send me a really good long lengthy email with a proper explanation I can live with I will keep sending you emails until your inbox explodes" 

What good is this silence doing you? And at this cost to me?

Enter guilt trip! "At THIS cost? To ME? You miserable human being... ." 

Right now, when I set aside the negative feelings that come to call, what remains is that I connected with you unexpectedly and quickly and, I felt, genuinely I was happy with you. And I loved you and I saw you and felt seen.

Ok. We've all felt like this.

Putting my hurt and anger aside, the love is still there, the desire for you to be well and do well is still there, and the hope and trust that love is more powerful than fear, that it's worth expressing, that you and I are both good people, that there is no one I'd rather get bagels with, that I would never be indifferent to you... .it's there

recycle attempt

and I can't ignore it or shoe it away, as much as we both might wish I could.

So... .she doesn't want to have feelings for you? Sounds like my ex "life is easier when you don't love people"...

And I suppose the plain truth is that you don't love me anymore, but I really would like to understand why.

Attempt to lure you out screaming "I do!"

Always here for you.[/i][/quote]
She is INCREDIBLY unhealthy for you. And you know she is. You don't want to be recycled.

Why can't you write what your T advised and write it is over?

Anything to chew on would draw out communication.

Anything to chew on wouldn't sink in anyway.

So anything to chew on, anything that holds any truth for you "loved you but this and this happened and it made me feel that and that so a I had to leave" is not an option.

Which leaves:

- prolonged NC > no reaction

- following your T's advice

Or have I missed another option?

[HurtinNW]

I think woundedbibi nailed it. My ex used to send emails and letters like that. They really tore me apart. It took me until recently to realize it is not what my ex says, it is what he does. I have breath mints that last longer than my ex and his regret.

In my opinion that email is a whole bunch of minimizing, deflecting, projecting and self-pity wrapped up in confusion. I don't hear any honest reflection or responsibility. An apology without change means nothing. She's tossing you a few little lines in the hope you will nibble and recycle without her having to make any change at all.

But this should be about you and your healing. Why do you think you can't bring yourself to send a brief closure email? Is there any part of you that hesitates to make sure it is permanent? Are you worried about her contacting you again, escalating or other behaviors? 

Sometimes we have to be the bad guy. I know my ex blames me and he will always see himself as the victim. I have a very pointed closure letter sitting on my desk top that I haven't sent, because he was the one who ended it and is still giving me the silent treatment. If he does contact me I'm not sure if I will answer, either.

Sorry about going through this. I know how hard it is to have your sincere feelings jerked around like that, and how crazy-making it can be. 

[patientandclear]

Seems to me the issue is whether YOU agree that the r/ship is over, and that is what you want to communicate to her.

If anything other than that, suggest you post on the indecided or improving board, and that you be warm, non-judgmental, and very clear and direct about boundaries, which probably requires a little reflection before sending.

[Fateful]

Thank you, everyone. I will try and respond and clarify a few things.

Sunflower: Yes, that's an approach I have been trying to integrate into my emotions/thinking. This does seem to be one big pull. I had briefly read some snippets from this author whom I'm sure many of you are familiar with (Richard Skerritt) who mentioned that emotions simply cannot reason. So, when your emotions are fulfilled with intimacy with a lovely person who suddenly changes and shows him/herself as an abuser, your emotions can't reason with this change. They continue to reach back to the wonderful, fulfilling moments. I need to force reason and firmly recognize the change my partner revealed to overcome the unmet emotional needs/lack of intimacy.

WB: I hope you're feeling well today. I read in another post that you were able to get cooking again. I hope that has been uplifting for you. Thank you for breaking everything down for me -- that was really helpful to have someone else pick it apart like that. What I meant by anything to chew on was anything to chew on. Even a response as curt as "I wish you the best but this is over," would be -- believe it or not -- give her something to work off of. I can't even begin to explain how unrelenting this experience has been and her approach to it. That is why I prefer to remain NC. What she meant when she said "the way I have been acting seems completely at odds . . ." was that I have not said a word to her in nearly two months. That's it. That's how I've been "acting." I suppose that her perspective, which she has reiterated numerous times over the past month and a half, is that she has been struggling and having difficulties with her emotions and other happenings in her life. She desperately wants me to "be there for her." But I can't. Only she can fix her issues.

HurtinNW: This break up will have no closure. Sending ANYTHING to her will get her kicking even more. I promise it. That, in combination with my still working to get over the breakup and everything that happened, leads me to feel incapable of communication with her. I think that as soon as that line of communication opens up even a shred, I will be susceptible even more. What I do need to do is absolutely work on not reading any of these emails, or having it forwarded to a separate folder.

patientandclear: Yes, I do agree that the relationship is decidedly over. I don't want to communicate with her right now -- if ever again.

As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there is such an enormous rollercoastery experience when breaking up with someone like this. There are often days/nights (particularly nights like tonight) where I feel myself and my emotions drawn to the nostalgia of being with her and the things we used to do on Friday nights. What also happened on many weekends nights was my being verbally and emotionally attacked. I can't make excuses for those experiences anymore. She is an adult and is responsible for her actions, notwithstanding her potential PD. I do not blame her or judge her for it, if that is the case. At the same time, I do not have to have my well-being threatened by it. It's moments when I receive an email like this -- or when, like yesterday, I receive a bunch of flowers delivered to my door with a note telling me how wonderful I am, and how I deserve unconditional love -- that I slip down the muddy trail of the mountain I'm trying to climb.

[WoundedBibi]

Whenever you think you are sliding down the muddy trail maybe it helps to read just the part of the email where I picked it apart to the Poor Me level to remind you she is wallowing in self pity and you are not an a... hole.

Also, unconditional love pretty though it sounds does not exist between adult partners. There are always conditions involved although they differ per person and we usual don't realise they are there. When the conditions are breached the love disappears. The conditions can be: don't cheat on me, don't hit me, don't rape me, don't try to kill me, don't beat our children to a pulp, don't rape a child, don't rape our child, don't become a mass murderer, and so on. But at some point the conditions are breached for all. They are just different for all.

You deserve not an unconditional love but an adult love based on trust and real intimacy:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201202/problems-emotional-intimacy-typical-bps-and-nps

Yes, thank you, I'm not doing too bad today 

[Fateful]

Truthfully, I am a complete sucker to believe any of these words. I'm realizing that my codependent tendencies coupled with social difficulties lead me to gripping tightly onto even the most pathetic forms of intimacy. While I have plenty to offer, I'm somehow crippled in enlarging my my social circle/interests and being comfortable in my own skin.

I have remained strong in not reaching out, but have failed pretty miserably in not looking at some social media. This is now only bringing on a great amount of pain. Now in particular because she sends emails like that, sends flowers the next day with a love note (note - I did not respond to the email), all while I am now suspecting that she has been fishing around for other men. HOW can you tell someone you love them dearly, would never be indifferent to them, would not want to do anything with anyone else, etc. all while you are scouting around for other men. It nauseates me. On top of that, I was told that she was seen out all over someone else a couple weeks ago. Is this normal? I mean, to some degree if someone you are interested in does not reciprocate -- I guess it only makes sense to look elsewhere. But doing/saying these things to me to try to lure me back in while at the same time hunting for others -- there's something wrong there. It would be one thing if she just tossed me aside and went for other people; but trying to keep me in her reach while doing that? Are you kidding? How can a person be so hurtful? I at least feel the wrongness in my gut now, which I think is a healthy step forward. I hope I can hang onto it for a while and let it at all go -- free myself from her moral ineptitude. She says she felt genuinely? I don't think so. I don't think she truly has any idea what any of what she said means -- perhaps she has some romanticized/idealized conception of it, but only to the extent that it fits in her twisted world. The world of an infant where she stamps her feet until she gets what she wants.

I've decided that I'm going to be getting a dog in the very near future. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but I think now is the perfect time. Incidentally, I was previously holding off on it because my ex had a dog, and while we were talking about living together, I thought it'd be a bit much to have two -- and a third beast (her). How the tables have turned. I think it will be a positive for me in my life: to have the responsibility, to care for a living thing, to get me all around town and socializing.

I want to say thank you to everyone that has replied to me here and in previous posts. It's truly remarkable that this forum is here. I hope that I can provide some support to others here, too.