If you knew then what you know now...

[DearBFF]

I have a few questions for those who have been in a relationship with someone whom you believe has BPD (undiagnosed or otherwise).

BFF is seeing a guy now who is wonderful and I am very happy for her/them, even though she has pushed me out (which was to be expected).

I'm realizing more and more that I feel guilty for not telling boyfriend about BFF's possible BPD.  I know this is a HUGE horrible idea, and I'm not saying I am going to... .let me explain why it is bugging me.  When I found out about BPD I got to research and think about what it meant for my relationship with my BFF.  I got to make a decision once I had more information.  Instead of only having the not so good things that happened, my confusion of not understanding things that happened, my feelings that I had done something wrong to hurt/upset her, and the not very nice things people said when I tried explaining her behavior to them... .I had information that finally made everything make sense.

With that information, I got to make a choice.  In most cases when people get involved with someone who displays BPD behaviors, they often have no idea what they are getting themselves into at first.  I did not, but once I found out I could have chosen to go.  I chose to stay but because I had the opportunity to make a choice I cannot imagine what it is like for someone who doesn't find out until somewhere down the line.


For those of you who have been in a relationship with someone who has BPD I offer the following questions.  Any insight is much appreciated!  Thank you for your time!

Did you know close to the beginning of the relationship?  Were you able to make a choice?  Did they tell you?  Did someone else?  Did you figure it out on your own?

If someone would have told you would you have believed them?  Would you have chosen to end the relationship?


I guess I am feeling guilty because I feel like this guy could stay... .however, I am almost positive that he will not stay once he blind sighted by the BPD.  He will feel lied to, and I wouldn't blame him one bit for that, as it is very understandable to feel that way.  Yet, I think if he knew sooner, either someone told him or he figured it out himself he could make a choice to accept this about her.  Then build a relationship on a foundation where he knows what he's dealing with.  I just see this unbelievably sweet guy, who is honest and caring, and have this overwhelming feeling of dread in my heart for when his world falls apart because he sees she is not everything he had hoped.

Also, she is doing so good at keeping him away right now I worry that they will go the distance.  If she manages to keep him away, not paint him black he may think this is the woman of his dreams (and she could be BPD included, if he knew about it).  So I worry that they will get married, move in, she'll get pregnant and then he'll realize something is going on that he did not see in the beginning.  Then he will just feel trapped.  I hate to think of him feeling that way and/or feeling like he has wasted a year or more of his life if he does decide to end things with her.  Also, then there may be an innocent child added to the mix.  She already has one and has enough trouble supporting herself while taking care of her daughter half the week; her father has her the other half. 

It's like if things went this way, she would probably just implode.  I have literally thought about attending her funeral and being asked to do her eulogy.  Then there is him, and he would probably feel so broken.  I guess I hate knowing that this could happen and I'm just watching.  It's like watching a trainwreck.  It's hard.

[balletomane]

To be honest, this whole post made me think of the saying "If you must borrow trouble, borrow it from nearer home." You're imagining your friend trapping the guy, you're imagining his reaction to the discovery of her BPD (and there's no way to know for sure how he would react), you're imagining her getting pregnant and then dying, leaving him and the child broken while you have to read the eulogy, and you're worrying about what you should do about this chain of events that so far hasn't happened and may never happen. You're borrowing trouble pretty far from home.

Even if it all does happen exactly as you've imagined it, your friend's relationship and the impact it may have on her boyfriend isn't your responsibility. He's a grown man and he is free to make his own mistakes. From what you've written, on one level you already know this, but asking those of us who were in romantic relationships to provide info that you can then try and apply to your friend's boyfriend isn't going to help you to untangle yourself from the situation. You can't control them and what they're doing. You can only take responsibility for yourself.

[vortex of confusion]

Did you know close to the beginning of the relationship?  Were you able to make a choice?  :)id they tell you?  :)id someone else?  :)id you figure it out on your own?

I had no clue that things would go the way they did. There were a few hints here and there. There was nothing there that indicated that he had the kind of issues that he does/did. On paper, he had an excellent resume. Nice. Religious. Educated. The list of objectively good things about him goes on and on and on. From a purely objective stand point, his "resume" looked way better than mine. My FOO was overtly dysfunctional. My FOO put "fun" in dysfunctional. His family was all serious and "perfect". There was no reason for me to believe that things would turn out the way they did.

If someone would have told you would you have believed them?  Would you have chosen to end the relationship?

Nope, I wouldn't have believed anyone if they had tried to tell me that things would end this way. He seemed so sweet and docile all of those years ago. I would have most likely dismissed anybody that tried to warn me. I seriously doubt that I would have ended the relationship.

I guess I am feeling guilty because I feel like this guy could stay... .however, I am almost positive that he will not stay once he blind sighted by the BPD.  He will feel lied to, and I wouldn't blame him one bit for that, as it is very understandable to feel that way.  Yet, I think if he knew sooner, either someone told him or he figured it out himself he could make a choice to accept this about her.  Then build a relationship on a foundation where he knows what he's dealing with.  I just see this unbelievably sweet guy, who is honest and caring, and have this overwhelming feeling of dread in my heart for when his world falls apart because he sees she is not everything he had hoped.

Why do you feel like you have some kind of responsibility to warn him?

It's like if things went this way, she would probably just implode.  I have literally thought about attending her funeral and being asked to do her eulogy.  Then there is him, and he would probably feel so broken.  I guess I hate knowing that this could happen and I'm just watching.  It's like watching a trainwreck.  It's hard.

I know what it is like to feel like you are watching somebody that you love implode. It is hard. What is even harder is trying to find ways to care without butting in. When my stbx was doing some really stupid stuff, I so badly wanted to tell him not to do it and pretty much do the controlling/mothering thing. When he was talking to other women, I put my nose in things and warned those other women about him. Most of them seemed to disappear after I told them what was really going on. It may have saved them but it didn't change my stbx's behavior at all. He just moved on to the next person.

She will get in a relationship with somebody. At what point are you going to step back and let her live her life without feeling the need to interfere or say something? I am not asking in judgment. I am asking because that has been one of the hardest things to do as I end an 18 year relationship. It is her life.

[blackbirdsong]

My exGF was diagnosed. She told me about BPD very early. We didn't have very long r/s (4 months), after 2 months she mentioned BPD.

I knew that she is in therapy for anxiety and depression. She mentioned BPD also, but in a way that shows that she doesn't fully accept that diagnose. At that time, I never heard of BPD, I didn't knew anything about it and I must admit I didn't do proper research, mostly because it was mentioned only once in our conversation, very subtle, very briefly and it was actually dismissed by her immediately.

Would it change something if I knew the facts? Probably not.

Only after some time, when things got crazy, I remembered BPD thing and started researching, recognized 8/9 symptoms and literally went running to the hills.

Back to your question... .

My opinion: This is huge no!

You are not responsible for her anymore.

You are not responsible for him. To him you would be a crazy ex, stranger who tells him what to do.

Don't play super hero role.

There is a reason why you ended with her. You can work on it.

There is also a reason why he ended with her. Only he can decide whether he wants to be with her or not.

Also, look very deep in your self, and ask why do you want to do this. Be honest to yourself.

[JerryRG]

As painful as it is to hear, hindsight is always 20/20

I try to focus on the positive things this relationship gave me, gratutude lists as often as I can and if I'm away from paper and pen I do the ABC's gratitude list in my head.

Stay in today, projecting into the future is a waste of time and energy. Again easy for me to say but it is habit we can break.

Hope things get better DearBFF

Oops , wrong response in the wrong forum, my apologies

[londons]

unbelievable that i just wrote something about "wishing i knew" prior to putting 9 years in, and wishing his first 2 wives would have said something to me. i may have just thought it was to cause trouble and break us up, but after a few red flags, lies, and accusations, i would have done the research.  and yes, as difficult as it would have been, i could have made an educated decision at that point! i would not be so confused and heart broken right now.  i see both sides here, but after what i went through?  tell me ladies, tell me! and yes, together we joined 8 children, and they, too are suffering through this divorce.  i surely see where u are coming from, but shoot, i dont know the approach to that one.    as for me, my replacement took my place and we are still legally married.  she can find out for herself why he is separated from his wife, with no forewarnings from me.      take care of you, lr

[WoundedBibi]

Did you know close to the beginning of the relationship?



No. I think it was near the end when I spoke to a friend, explained his behaviour said I couldn't make sense of it and he pointed out it might be BPD and I might want to look into it. It opened my eyes but it was too late already. No, let me rephrase that. It opened my eyes and because I knew so late I did not have the tools to handle things better but it wouldn't have mattered because the relationship might have lasted longer with the right information but it was never going to be a proper adult relationship built on respect, trust etcetera. Relationships with pwBPD just aren't. So I decided to walk away. Which I would have decided anyway with or without the information, it just wasn't doable.



Were you able to make a choice?



You always have a choice but my choice wasn't based on the information about BPD. My choice was based on his behaviour and the fact I didn't want anymore drama at that point.



Did they tell you?



No. I'm not even sure he knows what ails him.



Did someone else?



Yes. One of my friends. Based on my description of his behaviour my friend concluded what might be wrong.



Did you figure it out on your own?



After that I connected a lot of dots on my own.



If someone would have told you would you have believed them?



At the start? Maybe. I knew at the very start something was 'off'. Gut feeling I ignored. If someone I trusted would have told at the very start, before it became a relationship I might have believed them. Even though I would not have seen any real hardcore BPD behaviour yet by then. After that stage, I'm not sure. I was so in love. If it would have been someone I really really trusted it would have made me think, that I do know.



Would you have chosen to end the relationship?

That depends on who told me and at what stage.

Then build a relationship on a foundation where he knows what he's dealing with.

I'm sorry but I think you're making a mistake here. Knowing what you are dealing with doesn't make any difference. If it did the recycle attempts many of the people here got involved in would have worked, or the marriages. Some did know, were told, or did figure it out before they went back. Partners cannot control the BPD. A relationship with a pwBPD is not an adult one. There is no mutual trust, open communication, safety, and so on. See https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201202/problems-emotional-intimacy-typical-bps-and-nps

Also, she is doing so good at keeping him away right now I worry that they will go the distance.  If she manages to keep him away, not paint him black he may think this is the woman of his dreams (and she could be BPD included, if he knew about it).

Do you mean she is still idealizing him and hasn't gotten to the devaluation stage yet? That isn't the same as painting black by the way.

As far as she being his dream woman is concerned, see my previous answer. He cannot be looking for an adult equal partner because he will not find it in her.

Now as far as you informing him.

I can imagine you have concerns. Especially if you imagine her having more children and the situation escalating.

What if he believes you? He will confront her. She will probably deny anything is wrong. Let's presume he still walks out. Your friendship will be gone. You will be painted black. VERY black.

If he lets her convince him nothing is wrong your friendship is still gone and their train wreck will still happen.

If he doesn't believe you he could tell her, painted black, friendship gone, train wreck still going to happen. Or he doesn't believe you, doesn't tell her, and they still go down train wreck lane.

So still a lot of scenarios leading towards the train wreck. Because if he stays with her the train wreck WILL happen. Not if. When.

Apart from her and him there is you. As I said I understand you have concerns. You have imagined speaking at her funeral already. But why is her love life your responsibility? What if it doesn't work with this guy? And the next one shows up? Will you once again think about informing him? What if she moves to somewhere where you can't see if she has a new guy? Would you travel large distances to check and inform? What if you loose touch with her? Would you still keep tabs on who she is dating in 10 years? 20 years?

Why do you feel the need to save her? Because we can't save our exes and you can't save your friend.

[patientandclear]

I have a somewhat different view. I don't think it's necessarily true that "there is nothing you can do" as a partner of someone you know has BPD. Had I known from the start, my reactions to his out-of-the-blue statements and behavior would not have been the same. My reactions, however well intentioned given what I knew, began a spiral of him not feeling accepted as he his and me feeling scared when he would pull back and on and on. Even knowing about engulfment would have helped me know not to grab on so hard when he wanted to try again and then was a little squirrelly. In BPD terms what happened with us early on was not too bad; it could have been traversed. Because I was evaluating it without that frame of reference, I made more of his early reactions than they warranted with the additional information I now have.

After years of that we now trigger each other due to many rounds of mutual inadvertent hurt. I so wish I had known. I would not have ended it--I would have learned all I could and avoided some of the missteps that caused harm to us both.

That said ... .I am not at all convinced that would have saved the r/ship. I see no signs of him shifting behaviors to a point that I would have been able to fully accept them. But I would have less doubt that it had to end, if it did. By the time I knew what was going on, and gained any insight into my own role, he had already dug in deeply to some self protective stances that have made it very difficult ever since.

But BFF, I think folks are right to flag the likely consequences to your friendship if you cross this line. If you did it with someone who did NOT have BPD with its persecution lens, it would rarely go well. Add in BPD and it seems likely to prompt some serious backlash.

[AwakenedOne]

I wish you had of been my uBPDxw's BFF and told me all about her while she and I were dating. She didn't show obvious signs of being disordered. Maybe just her desire to marry quickly and the fact that she fell in love so fast. We got married and then she slowly changed or reverted back into someone else. I was still obligated to honor the wedding vows that were made to God. If you told me that this woman will be dangerous at times and will injure you and put your life in danger I feel that I would of not disregarded your words. I would of at the least delayed getting married to her. Probably most people wouldn't believe you though while they tell you "But this person is so wonderful they are not disordered".

I will still caution though against inserting yourself into this. I wouldn't do it if I was you. Might be best to just say a prayer and leave it to a higher power to sort out or just hope that the guy just figures things out for himself. Isn't the person who is responsible for telling him about BPD is her?

[JerryRG]

In my case my exes new bf was explaining to me how I'm such a horrible guy for taking advantage of her, that I raped her unconscious body. This was my attempt to defend myself and I said if she says these things about her ex husband and past relationships including me and I was man number 7, 8, 9? What do you think she's going to do to you idiot! Lol I was arguing with a puppet, reminded me of the stimulating yet ineffective conversations with the ex.

[Jazzy]

I did not know that my ex had BPD throughout our 6 year r/s.

If someone had told me about BPD at any time during   our r/s I am pretty sure I would  NOT have left him. I loved him with all my heart  and accepted him with all his flaws. Had I known about BPD, I would have just worked harder to make the r/s work .

I learnt he had BPD only AFTER  he   replaced and discarded me in the most cruel, humiliating  manner.

I always felt there was something not quite right throughout our 6 year  r/s, but I could never ever put our finger on it. It was only after he threw me away like trash and left me devastated, that I stumbled upon this site.It helped me understand  why he behaved the way he did and that  he    never ever loved  me  the way I did.

[DearBFF]

Thank you for all of your responses!  I would like to respond to you each individually, but I just wanted to clarify that I am not saying I plant to tell boyfriend.  I am just saying that I feel guilt within myself that this seemingly great guy may get hurt, that he may spend a year or years of his life with her hoping he can do something to help her, even possibly marrying and having children with her not knowing what he is getting himself into.  Yes, I know this has not happened, and it is not something I am obsessing over, but it does make me think about how little I understand about it from the significant other's point of view since that is not the position I am in.

When I see a possibility of someone getting hurt in life I do mention things to them, with the exception of it having to do with another person (for the most part).  That is between them and I acknowledge that, but that doesn't mean I don't think about it.  If boyfriend ever came to me about something he didn't understand or asking what he did wrong if BFF was treating him unkindly I would try to explain her behavior as best I could (without mentioning BPD) as I know how awful it can feel not understanding those feelings.  I wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone.  I think we all rely on friends to help us with things we don't always understand, showing us a different point of view.

[DearBFF]

 belletomane

"If you must borrow trouble, borrow it from nearer home."

I have never heard this quote before... .it's a good one, thanks for sharing.

You're imagining [... .]

I feel like if I imagined it I would be reacting as if it has happened.  I do think about it, and I cannot see how I could not.  It seems like many pwBPD follow patterns and so I can usually a pretty good sense of when something is coming, like when her relationship is on the outs, when she is going to push me away, or when she's about to quit a job.

[... .] asking those of us who were in romantic relationships to provide info that you can then try and apply to your friend's boyfriend isn't going to help you to untangle yourself from the situation. You can't control them and what they're doing.

I am asking for info because I realized I do not understand it from a significant other's point of view and I am curious.  I would like to better understand it, and I do wonder if someone had told them if they would feel differently about it at the time or now with their decisions.  I have no desire to control, but I don't think I'd call what I'm talking about control.  I like boyfriend so very much I've even told him, BFF, and my husband he's everything I pictured in the brother I always wish I had; which may be one of the reasons I feel bad he doesn't know.  If he was my brother, I would without a doubt have told him, as it would have been some random guy it would have been family.

For me, being who I am, if something ends badly for someone and I feel like I had an inkling it was coming and I didn't mention it, I would feel bad.  I don't think this means it is my responsibility, but I think I would feel like I wish I had said something and in the end they may wish I had as well.  I am just trying to make a bit of sense of these feeling and understand something I am not in a position to understand.

[DearBFF]

 vortex!  Thank you so very much for your response and answering my questions.

I had no clue that things would go the way they did. There were a few hints here and there.

I think BFF is probably doing a good job keeping him away so he cannot see.  I think he may have seen her cutting scars, but she never directly spoke to him about him (that I know of).  Her latest are obvious because she cut over a tattoo she got on her wrist to cover them, so letters are now cut in half.  It's her last name, the last name of her ex-husband, and boyfriend asked if she would ever have it removed.  He never actually brought up the scars, but I think he may have been asking to see if she would talk about it.  I'm pretty sure she has mentioned her depression/anxiety/OCD, but I believe she is in denial about the BPD (plus her psychiatrist told her she doesn't have it, I think he just doesn't see it or won't tell her about it).

Did you just talk yourself out of it when you saw things?

On paper, he had an excellent resume.

When you met him did others give you his resume or was it just what he told you about himself?  It's so hard when what they're saying is only partially true, like you know them on their good days, but they rarely mention the bad ones.

I just got some advice from another message board that when someone tells you who they are, believe them.  Sometimes BFF will say something like this to new people, "This is my best friend who has saved my life.  She is a wonderful person and I treat her like ___.  No, really she is my punching bag and I don't deserve her.  It's so honest, yet people kind of just shrug or change the subject.  I guess they don't know what to say and think she's exaggerating.  She never says it to someone she is trying to be "perfect" for though.

Nope, I wouldn't have believed anyone if they had tried to tell me that things would end this way. He seemed so sweet and docile all of those years ago. I would have most likely dismissed anybody that tried to warn me. I seriously doubt that I would have ended the relationship.

That's what I thought... .BPD behaviors are so opposite to what the person with BPD wants others to believe.  The really sad part to me is they want to be that "perfect" person, they just can't.  Boyfriend is up front and open and honest, and he would never believe BFF has lied to him, or that she has pushed away her best friend.  All of her BPD behaviors are so opposite the "perfect" she wants to portray, I think I would just sound crazy.  I've had someone tell me that actually... .I talked to a woman who was crying over BFF trying to understand what she did wrong to make BFF treat her so badly.  I did not mention BPD at all and just tried to explain sometime BFF can be like that, push people away (which is as much as BFF admits to openly), but that the woman did nothing wrong to cause it.  Needless to say, I saw that conversation as a huge red flag and limit my interaction with that woman because I didn't want to be caught up in whatever she has going on.

Why do you feel like you have some kind of responsibility to warn him?

I think it's a few things.  I do want to clarify I am not saying I am going to tell him... .it is something I do think about, like would it help?  If it were me I'd want someone to tell me... .if any of her previous friends knew I wish they had told me so I wouldn't have been so blind sighted and I would have thanked them.  I don't feel like I have a responsibility, I feel more like if it ends badly and I knew that was a very strong possibility that I will feel bad.  It doesn't matter what it is, it's a part of me.  If I see someone walking with their shoes untied and they walk right by me and I don't mention it to them (in case they didn't notice) and then they tripped and fell and got hurt, I would feel bad like I should have said something.

What is even harder is trying to find ways to care without butting in.

This is so very true!  I was so thankful to have the support and advice here when she recently ended up in the hospital.  I dropped off flowers and a care package for her and her daughter, but I didn't visit because she didn't ask.  Sometimes I wonder though if part of this push is a residual for that... .because I didn't bend over backward to be there and hold her hand if she's punishing me for that.  I have told her I am here, but that I won't chase her anymore and that if she wants me in her life she has to put me there.  I did actually mention to boyfriend "If it ever seems like I have disappeared I want you to know I didn't go anywhere."  That was important to me... .I never did with past guys, but this one I like so I wanted him to know that.

It is her life.

Absolutely, I am asking because I wanted to understand... .I can think up possible responses, but I have not been a significant other to someone with BPD so I wanted to hear from some who have.  I wonder what it's like for them, you.  My mind is very curious and especially about people.  I like trying to understand people and feelings.  

If I wasn't like this I would have never discovered BPD, I just would have agreed with those who called BFF a b*tch for the way she treated me sometimes and been done with her.  For me, I wanted to understand, so I looked deeper.  I found BPD and gained understanding and compassion.  Then I choose to still be her friend anyway and love her unconditionally.  That doesn't mean I like her behavior and when I find it unacceptable I have now learned to distance myself, sometimes like now she does it for me.  Yet, it means that I accept I may never have a consistent relationship with her, and I know now I cannot count on her to be there for me or my daughter if we need her.  However, I will always have hope that she will accept BPD, get some help, and learn to love herself and let someone love her; even if it's not me.

[DearBFF]

blackbirdsong!  Thank you for your response, and answering my questions!

She told me about BPD very early.

That is so interesting to me as I would guess she was in the minority to mention it.  BFF mentioned it just briefly while talking about her husband thinking she had bipolar, so she went to a psychologist to find out.  They said they didn't think she did, but she may have BPD.  They mentioned it that once, never spoke to her about it again and she never looked into it.  That was years before I met her, probably about 5.  I too didn't really look into it or think anything of it since she hadn't.

Would it change something if I knew the facts? Probably not.

Would this be because you wouldn't have believed someone if they told you?  For me, I think the reason I would tell boyfriend (again, not saying I plan on doing so, I actually do not want to but I do think about it)... .I think this guy could be one who would say, but I think he would stay if he had the cards up front.  If BPD pops up somewhere down the line as some new thing he had no idea about, I am pretty sure he would feel lied to.  That in and of itself would probably make him end it.  Yet, I feel like if he knew what he was getting himself into and decided he could accept that as a part of who she was, then he could move forward with his eyes open.  I could totally be wrong, he could totally run; that is just not the sense I get from this guy.  Totally my opinion of course!

To him you would be a crazy ex, stranger who tells him what to do.

I completely agree that he would just think I was crazy.  I have been told this before and I think that's what people thing as when things go wrong, she tells them some horrible thing she perceives that I did to her then they think I'm awful.  I would definitely not tell him what to do however, as I have never appreciated that myself.  I would share the information as I wish someone had with me, as it would have saved me a lot of beating myself up over things that were not my fault, as well as me bringing home bad moods that belonged to her.  (I am hugely empathic and I have previously sucked up her bad feelings like a sponge.  I'm getting much better at deflecting now so this is no longer a problem.)

Also, look very deep in your self, and ask why do you want to do this. Be honest to yourself.

I do not plan on doing this, but when I think about it then it goes like this... .When I got the information about BPD I felt like I was at a crossroads and got the chance to make an informed decision about the future of my relationship wth my friend.  Would I continue now having full knowledge, or end it.  I guess I feel like everyone deserves the opportunity to make decisions with their eyes wide open.  I suppose it doesn't feel good in that I have information that could open his eyes; especially since I feel that this guy might stay.  I'm an honest person so it feels like I am being dishonest by withholding information I suppose.

[DearBFF]

Jerry!

I try to focus on the positive things this relationship gave me, gratitude lists as often as I can and if I'm away from paper and pen I do the ABC's gratitude list in my head.

I have never heard of an ABC gratitude list, that is a wonderful idea!  I think my daughter would have fun with this one as well.  Thank you!

I do feel I often try to focus on positive, and I guess in a way I feel like for this guy knowing may be a positive.  I know that all of my thinking is just conjecture, but I feel how I feel and think how I think.  

Oops , wrong response in the wrong forum, my apologies

I am confused... .was this post in the wrong forum?  I don't understand.


Thank you very much for your response!  I really appreciate it!  

[DearBFF]

londons

unbelievable that i just wrote something about "wishing i knew" prior to putting 9 years in, and wishing his first 2 wives would have said something to me.

Even as just a friend, I feel like I wish someone would have told me.  I did have someone say to be careful of her, but that's not quite what I mean as they weren't specific and this person was jealous of her at the time so it made me not listen to his words.

Would you have believed the first 2 wives, and what would you have wanted to say?  Explain the behaviors that you might have found troubling?

she can find out for herself why he is separated from his wife, with no forewarnings from me.

I'm curious why you would wish one of his first 2 wives told him, yet you do not feel like you would want to tell the replacement now?  No judgement, just curious... .or is it that you are just glad to be out and want to stay out?


Thank you for your response, and I am definitely taking care of me!  It took me a while to learn, but I'm doing it now.  

[DearBFF]

WoundedBibi!

I think it was near the end when I spoke to a friend, explained his behavior said I couldn't make sense of it and he pointed out it might be BPD and I might want to look into it.

Wow!  Super insightful friend, and knowledgeable to suggest BPD!  The responses I got from people were "Why are you her friend?" and "She sounds like a b*tch!"

[... .] it was never going to be a proper adult relationship built on respect, trust etcetera. Relationships with pwBPD just aren't.

I agree, and feel that this is very true if they are not getting treatment.  I feel that if someone has been diagnosed with BPD and are open and honest about their diagnosis, and regularly attend treatment they can maintain a relationship.  It will probably be bumpy at first, but could become more stable over time.  Learning the skills and putting them into practice can take time to work out, for all parties involved.

I'm not even sure he knows what ails him.

Since you were done with the behaviors and relationships you didn't feel the need to mention it to him?  I know everyone/everything generally says not to, so I definitely get this.  I actually did mention it to BFF when I found the info.  It was good at first, then she kind of rejected it, me, etc when a boyfriend reacted badly.  As far as I know she's the only one he ever told and due to his reaction, I wouldn't be surprised if she never tells anyone again.  Also, her psychiatrist says she does not have it (at least that's what she told me).  I'm guessing he doesn't see it.

I knew at the very start something was 'off'. Gut feeling I ignored.

I think for me I just felt she was like me... .damaged from an unstable FOO.  I didn't guess more until I saw the behaviors and started thinking things didn't quite add up.

If it would have been someone I really really trusted it would have made me think, that I do know.

A guy I knew I considered a friend at the time approached me in a jealous manner about my new friendship with BFF.  His only words were "to be careful of her" which didn't really make any sense and he didn't elaborate on.  He sounded so nutty at the time... .I got up and wasn't there to respond to messages for a few minutes because I was helping my daughter in the bathroom, she's 5.  When I returned he was accusing me of ignoring him and said he was going to unfriend me, I said that was fine with me if he was only going to be rude.  So I didn't have anyone say anything concrete, nor anyone say anything about BPD.

Early on though I would say I started to see things that made me question her honesty.  She'd say things about people I knew and though, that doesn't seem right with what I know about them.  Coming from my family of origin though lying was something I developed as a habit to stay safe so I figured she did the same thing.  I just didn't realize she did it about everything... .one of her last ones to me was about honey.    The thing learning about BPD made me see it in a new light when I could truly understand why she did it, to protect herself (which is what she perceives), and not feel like she was trying to be malicious.  I can now understand this as a part of her personality, not one that I like, but one that I no longer get upset over.  It's not worth it.

I'm sorry but I think you're making a mistake here. Knowing what you are dealing with doesn't make any difference. If it did the recycle attempts many of the people here got involved in would have worked, or the marriages.

You have a very good point here... .I had never thought of it that way before.  Thank you for pointing that out to me!

A relationship with a pwBPD is not an adult one. There is no mutual trust, open communication, safety, and so on.

I think there is a possibility for an adult one if they are in treatment consistently and transparent about their diagnosis.  I have read that previously, but not recently!  I love her book and it's one of the 2 I own on BPD.  For me, I think my frustration in my relationship with BFF will always be that I can/have felt that intimacy before when she is not having a BPD episode.  In those instances, it does not feel false to me, as I can open up completely and feel loved and accepted.  I know she too has shared things with me she has never shared with anyone, and I truly love and accept her.  I know many have not held her broken because she puts up walls to keep almost everyone away.  We have had those times, and I have seen way less than "perfect" which she portrays to everyone else.  Also, I don't mean less than as in BPD behaviors, I mean less than as in true vulnerability of sharing things we are afraid of and ashamed of with one another.  I feel like this is who she wants to be all the time, but she cannot sustain it.  It terrifies her.  I understand and think it is scary for almost anyone, but for a pwBPD it's like they cannot even imagine it so they just tamp it down and cover it with false confidence.

Do you mean she is still idealizing him and hasn't gotten to the devaluation stage yet?

I don't know if she is still idealizing him as I am not that close to know.  One of her biggest triggers is feeling engulfed and then whoever she feels is engulfing her she can see no good in.  Everything they do is wrong, they are intentionally trying to piss her off, they don't care what she wants.  Mind you she usually has not told this person anything about what she wants, that she is annoyed, etc.  With the last guy one week she was telling me how great things were, that she felt she could tell him anything, and they were discussing getting married and buying a home with land for her to build her own barn and run her business out of it.  This was after she had brought me back after a hard shove... .I knew that whenever she talked like that something was wrong so I wasn't surprised the next week when she asked me to go to dinner with her to talk and she said everything he did she hated, he was driving her nuts, and she had cheated on him twice.  At this time, she was still teetering on the BPD possibility and hadn't talked to her psychiatrist who says she does not have it.  She wanted to ask me if her thoughts/feelings/behaviors were because of her BPD or because of the guy.  We had an intersting talk... .

That isn't the same as painting black by the way.

I hear them used interchangeably so if you could correct me on that, I'd be grateful!  To my understanding... .

Idealization: "you're an angel" and "you're perfect" etc

Devaluation: "I hate you" and "get out of my life"

To me, idealization=white and devaluation=black as she would never say the things she did to me in devaluation if she hadn't started painting me black.  I'd love to understand, thank you!

He cannot be looking for an adult equal partner because he will not find it in her.

The thing is wouldn't you think you were looking for that if that's all you could see in front of you?  If you cannot see the BPD, then you think you are getting everything you ever wanted. 

Plus, I think he may be a bit of a rescuer, but she tries her best not to let him.  I think she's figured out being rescued makes her feel weak.  Even when she was in the hospital recently I assumed he was at her side.  She told me she wouldn't let him.  He continued to work and said he had to argue with her on the phone just to stop in to visit her for a little bit.  She is afraid if he is there too much she'll push him away.  She's trying really hard, but inevitably if they do move in together and/or get married she can't just tell her husband to move out a while because she needs some space.  That just won't work. 

Now as far as you informing him.

You make some wonderful points!

But why is her love life your responsibility? What if it doesn't work with this guy? And the next one shows up? Will you once again think about informing him? What if she moves to somewhere where you can't see if she has a new guy?

I do not feel it is my responsibility.  She has been through a few guys since I found out about BPD, and I did not feel this way about any previous ones.  With this guy I feel differently... .in part I like him.  He is a good guy and could be good for her and her daughter.  He strikes me as someone who could love her unconditionally through her disorder and be a support while she got treatment if she ever decides to.  Also, I feel a kinship towards him.  I have told him, BFF, and my husband that this guy embodies everything I imagined in the brother I grew up wishing I had.  He isn't... .I know that, because if he was I would have told him in a heartbeat then let him make his own decision.

Would you travel large distances to check and inform? What if you loose touch with her? Would you still keep tabs on who she is dating in 10 years? 20 years?

I have lost touch with her, repeatedly.  Right now I haven't heard from her in weeks.  I no longer chase her, but that doesn't mean I won't say hi now and then in the future.  I do care, and I do hope she is doing alright.  I do not feel I "keep tabs" I have been introduced to this guy as the man in her life.  He calls me his friend, and I like him.

Why do you feel the need to save her? Because we can't save our exes and you can't save your friend.

I don't feel like me feeling what I feel is a need to save her.  Plus, I don't think telling him would necessarily save her from anything.  I stopped trying to save her a while ago, probably when I learned about the BPD almost a year ago now.


Thank you for your response!

[DearBFF]

 patientandclear!  Thank you so much for your insightful answers to my questions! 

Had I known from the start, my reactions to his out-of-the-blue statements and behavior would not have been the same.

Everything you said there made perfect sense to me.  I agree... .if I had known sooner I would have known not to take things so personally.  That even if she invited me over multiple times a week it wasn't a good idea to say yes every time I could because it would cause her to push me away.  After I learned about BPD I had a whole new set of skills and knowledge, but it took me a while to get the hang of them.  I still get stuck sometimes, which is one of the main reasons I'm so thankful for you all.   

After years of that we now trigger each other due to many rounds of mutual inadvertent hurt. I so wish I had known.

I have heard this before, that the individuals involved now trigger one another negatively.  It seems that you are right if that line could not be crossed, going so far that the relationship cannot go back, maybe it could sustain.  It would need a ton of boundaries and precautions, and language in order to try to keep things steady.  If it worked though you wouldn't lose the good parts, even if the bad parts are frustrating and can make one want to bang their head on the wall. 

I would not have ended it--I would have learned all I could and avoided some of the missteps that caused harm to us both.

I feel like this is what I have done, or am trying to do in my present situation.  The bottom line for me is that I want to stay friends with her.  I want to be there for her.  That does not mean I like how she sometimes treats me, so I try to avoid it, and I walk away from it.  Yet, this doesn't mean I want to walk away from her.

In the end, it's not about changing them it's about changing ourselves.  I know some may disagree with this, but learning about BPD made me more open minded, compassionate, and even cautious.  I feel like my eyes are more open than they have ever been, and I feel more at peace now than I ever have about our relationship.

That said ... .I am not at all convinced that would have saved the r/ship.

So you would not have ended it, but not saved it either?

I know if I hadn't found out about BPD when I did, I would have walked away and not looked back.  I may have believed everyone saying she was just mean.  Now I know she's not.

Add in BPD and it seems likely to prompt some serious backlash.

Absolutely, and this is one of the main reasons I do not plan on telling him.

Thank you! 

[DearBFF]

 AwakenedOne!  Thank you for your response!

She didn't show obvious signs of being disordered.

Neither does my BFF... .well, I should say to most people.  If you asked most people to describe her it's the wonderful she tries to portray and none of the damage she tries to hide.  Those that are a bit closer see something off, but don't know what.  The ones even closer may just attribute things to a troubled childhood, immaturity (I hear this one a lot), or just that they're going through a tough time.  It's only the closest that see all of that for what it is though, usually nothing more than excuses.  It can be a bit of them all, but not one covers all of their behaviors, only BPD does; excluding any co-existing conditions.  It's like you have to be so close to see it... .and the trouble is that most people think they are close and see everything, so then they're taken by surprise when the curtain is really pulled back.

If you told me that this woman will be dangerous at times and will injure you and put your life in danger I feel that I would of not disregarded your words.

I do not feel that my BFF could be dangerous, but I know she can be very intense and even stalked one ex.  That is something I'm sure no one would believe.  It's so hard to get someone to understand BPD, even if they wanted to believe I'd think most people just wouldn't get what it is.  They do things that hurt people, but they don't truly want to hurt people?  It just sounds so confusing to most.

I will still caution though against inserting yourself into this. I wouldn't do it if I was you.

My intention is not to tell him, but I do think about it.  I was really wanting to understand from a significant other's point of view if it would have made any difference to them and if they would have wanted to know.

Isn't the person who is responsible for telling him about BPD is her?

Absolutely... .and if she wasn't in denial and would let him get close enough she actually might.  She is not diagnosed and is content in denial because even her psychiatrist says she does not have it.  However, he said this during a session where she was probably very dysregulated, mad at me, and frustrated at her job and boyfriend at the time.  I don't think her psychiatrist can see it as she is so good at hiding it.  She is very high functioning and good at making excuses to those who don't know her very well.  I disagree... .  I see BPD 100%, even more so since I told her about it.  I think deep down she is terrified to admit it, and share it.


Thank you so much for answering my questions!

[DearBFF]

Jerry, I cannot imagine this... .but I understand it!

BFF entered my life when she was at her breaking point with her now ex-husband.  She wanted to be saved and she fed us all a victim story we easily believed.  He was most likely NPD, so I'm not saying he was great, but as time went on I saw how she talked about people.  Some of the people I even knew and what she said started not making sense.  Now I know to listen to everything she says with a grain of salt.  It is such a hard thing to accept... .that someone you love could be saying things that aren't even remotely true.

I know that for some pwBPD their perception is that the person they speak of with such venom is actually that awful.  For others I think they just need people to feel for them, and so they need the other person to be that awful or people might have room to think "They can't be that bad!"  I know that until she is in treatment and even then, I may never be able to truly believe every word that comes out of her mouth.

It may sound odd, but I actually hold honesty at the top of my list of traits I admire in people.  However, I grew up being a great liar in a somewhat unstable home.  So I can understand it.

I'm sorry to hear about the things she said about you.  Most of them will never know how they hurt us, but I think I will always believe that eventually others will see that things they say may not be true.  I have had people say to me, "Sorry... ."  They realized she was wrong.  I think maybe everyone sees it eventually, especially when the pwBPD starts saying things about them.

In my case my exes new bf was explaining to me how I'm such a horrible guy for taking advantage of her, that I raped her unconscious body. This was my attempt to defend myself and I said if she says these things about her ex husband and past relationships including me and I was man number 7, 8, 9? What do you think she's going to do to you idiot! Lol I was arguing with a puppet, reminded me of the stimulating yet ineffective conversations with the ex.

[DearBFF]

 Jazzy!

It helped me understand why he behaved the way he did and that he never ever loved me the way I did.

I'm sorry to hear about your 6 year relationship, Jazzy, and especially sorry that you didn't find out until after since you might have worked it out.  I feel the way you do, that I accept my friend and her flaws.  I have stopped trying to rescue her and change her, and understanding went a long way towards that.

I don't think I believe that BFF doesn't love me the way I love her, or at least I believe she loves me very much.  She has said to me before, "I love you too much."  It terrifies her to have someone who actually loves and accepts her, who doesn't plan on leaving when things get tough.  It's like she doesn't know what to do with me.  She hasn't learned how to just be "in love" to exist within it.  It has to be push or pull, not just there, living it.  I think this has a lot to do with them not being able to love themselves.  Once they are able to do that, then they will probably need to push and pull a lot less.  To me, the fact that she ever pushes/pulls me means that I matter a lot.  If I didn't there would be no need for push or pull, she would just leave me wherever I was with no desire to engage me at all.  Those are the people she just calls when she needs a favor or when she's bored, not for actual support.  I intend to stay or support, when she needs me, I'm here; even though I know she cannot be the same for me in return.  I'll always hold out hope that one day maybe she'll want more, both from me and more importantly from herself.

Thank you for your response, and take care! 

[vortex of confusion]

I think BFF is probably doing a good job keeping him away so he cannot see.  I think he may have seen her cutting scars, but she never directly spoke to him about him (that I know of).  Her latest are obvious because she cut over a tattoo she got on her wrist to cover them, so letters are now cut in half.  It's her last name, the last name of her ex-husband, and boyfriend asked if she would ever have it removed.  He never actually brought up the scars, but I think he may have been asking to see if she would talk about it.  I'm pretty sure she has mentioned her depression/anxiety/OCD, but I believe she is in denial about the BPD (plus her psychiatrist told her she doesn't have it, I think he just doesn't see it or won't tell her about it).

Those are pretty big things that he can see for himself. It is up to him to decide whether or not those are things that he can handle.

Did you just talk yourself out of it when you saw things?

I don't know that I talked myself out of it when I saw things. I think it was more me seeing stuff as quirks. I am a quirky person. I imagine that there are a lot of things about me that some people would see as red flags. I didn't feel like it would be fair to make snap judgments based on a few incidents that seemed isolated at the time. It took me a long time to see that some of this stuff was a pervasive pattern. One of the things that I have seen on this site and in other places is that what separates bad behavior that is BPDish from somebody having a bad day or even a bad period is that it is a pervasive pattern that doesn't go away. It took me 15 (out of 18) years to see that his dismissiveness and crappy behavior was something more than what could be attributed to bad situations. There were natural disasters, jobs lost, and other situations that would explain some of his behavior.

That's what I thought... .BPD behaviors are so opposite to what the person with BPD wants others to believe.  The really sad part to me is they want to be that "perfect" person, they just can't.  Boyfriend is up front and open and honest, and he would never believe BFF has lied to him, or that she has pushed away her best friend.

My stbx put on one heck of a good show. I don't pretend to be anything. It isn't in my nature to assume that somebody is lying to me. I tend to think the best of people whenever possible. It is way too easy to dismiss naysayers as having an ax to grind. How many times have you heard stories of people being jealous or trying to paint somebody else in a negatively light because they have an agenda? It makes it even more difficult to make heads or tales out of things because the current partner doesn't really get a taste of any of it until they are in so far that they can't easily walk away. By the time that I realized that something was really off, it was too late as I had already married him. He never ever showed anybody the side of himself that I got to see. I told his mom one time about some of the stuff that he had done and she said, "Oh, he would never do that."

I think it's a few things.  I do want to clarify I am not saying I am going to tell him... .it is something I do think about, like would it help?  If it were me I'd want someone to tell me... .if any of her previous friends knew I wish they had told me so I wouldn't have been so blind sighted and I would have thanked them.  I don't feel like I have a responsibility, I feel more like if it ends badly and I knew that was a very strong possibility that I will feel bad.  It doesn't matter what it is, it's a part of me.  If I see someone walking with their shoes untied and they walk right by me and I don't mention it to them (in case they didn't notice) and then they tripped and fell and got hurt, I would feel bad like I should have said something.

I would have liked to have had some kind of warning. The problem with that is that it would have had to come from somebody that I really trusted. I would have to know that the person was acting out of kindness rather than some kind of weird ulterior motive. Before I met my stbx, I dated a guy that was bad news. I did have people warn me about him. I didn't listen. It was too easy for me to dismiss it as "you don't know him like I do". It was too easy to dismiss it as a million things other than what it was. I felt like it was friends/family trying to control my life and tell me what to do because they thought I could do better. My stbx was way better on paper than that guy who was an ex-con. I was only 18 or 19 at the time so I was still pretty naive. I was only 22 when I married my stbx. I was pretty naive and didn't know a whole lot about how relationships were supposed. I knew that they required a lot of work but had no idea that working on a relationship didn't involve allowing yourself to be treated like crap. I am now 40 and have a whole lot more knowledge and experience under my belt than I did back then.

How would you feel if you told somebody about their untied shoes and then ignored you and tripped anyway?

If I wasn't like this I would have never discovered BPD, I just would have agreed with those who called BFF a b*tch for the way she treated me sometimes and been done with her.  For me, I wanted to understand, so I looked deeper.  I found BPD and gained understanding and compassion.  Then I choose to still be her friend anyway and love her unconditionally.  That doesn't mean I like her behavior and when I find it unacceptable I have now learned to distance myself, sometimes like now she does it for me.  Yet, it means that I accept I may never have a consistent relationship with her, and I know now I cannot count on her to be there for me or my daughter if we need her.  However, I will always have hope that she will accept BPD, get some help, and learn to love herself and let someone love her; even if it's not me.

I think it is great that you discovered BPD and have been able to find compassion for your friend. I spent 18 years choosing to love my stbx and loving him unconditionally. That is ultimately why I wouldn't have listened to anybody that tried to warn me about him. I loved him and thought that I could handle pretty much anything. It turns out that I am not super woman and I can't handle some of the things that he has done to me over the years. I cannot handle the things that he did. The fact that I have chosen to end the relationship is not a sign that I did not love him unconditionally. I still love him. My best friends know this, my boyfriend knows this, and my children know this. I had to make a choice. I had to choose between me and my stbx. I finally decided to choose me. Putting up with the crap he did was not unconditional love. It was enabling him to avoid his own crap. He had a nice little place to fall and hide all of his demons. Now, he is chasing somebody else while trying to feed me crap about saving our relationship. It is crazy making and I don't want any part of it.

[balletomane]

I knew about my ex's mental health problems from the outset. He was a good friend for several years before we became a couple and he talked to me about what went on in his psychiatry appointments. I dated him anyway because I wasn't planning on entering a relationship with a diagnosis, but with a person. I believed (and still do believe) that people with BPD aren't just mental health problems on legs.

If he hadn't told me about his diagnosis, and a friend of his had done so, I would have thought the friend was intrusive and crossing boundaries in a bad way. I would want my partner to be open with me about his health, but at the same time I'd see a friend who tried to give me info that he had held back as breaking his confidence. It would look to me as if they were overly involved in his business. Put it this way - if you had a health condition, and for whatever reason you weren't comfortable talking about it with a partner, how would you feel if your best friend made that disclosure for you? Whether your friend is right to hide her diagnosis from her boyfriend is a completely separate question from whether it would be right/useful for you to intervene.

[DearBFF]

 vortex, and thanks for responding!

Those are pretty big things that he can see for himself.

I've been very close to her myself over the last year and a half and I didn't even know about the cutting until about 9 months in when I brought up BPD and she said yes to that symptom when I read it to her.  I never noticed the scars because she hadn't cut in years, until just before boyfriend over the tattoo.  Yep, entirely up to him... .I'm just saying it's hard to see BPD when you don't know what you're looking at.

I am a quirky person.

Me too... .people tend to either think I am shy because I don't talk much, then they can't get me to shut up if they spend a few minutes getting to know me.  I'm also really open and honest, that seems to scare people away, but I've come to see this as a bit of a good thing.  I also like what I like and I don't really care if someone else doesn't, I know what I enjoy and I'm perfectly fine enjoying it alone. 

The most common one I've seen people label BFF's behavior as was immature, which is fine since she's in her 20s, but when he's in her 30s/40s/etc that label won't dismiss her behavior quite so easily.

There were natural disasters, jobs lost, and other situations that would explain some of his behavior.

Same with BFF... .the thing is when I'm there I don't think many of those have actually happened that way.  Her parents think she quit a job on principle because they wouldn't let her spend more time with her daughter.  They pat her on her back while in reality she got fired for being inappropriate with her ex on the job.  She paints things in a light so it seems like she took the high road or it was completely beyond her control when in reality she usually brought it on herself.

It isn't in my nature to assume that somebody is lying to me. I tend to think the best of people whenever possible.

Me too... .  I've noticed more recently though I am taking things less literally and not believing everyone will be as honest with me as I am with them.  Not solely because of BFF... .for instance a woman came to look at our bunny as a pet for her daughter's, they were going to get 2.  She calls back and said one daughter found one elsewhere and is adopting it, so they just decided to get the one.  Less than a week later I see the family at a meeting and the daughters are going on about their bunnies... .I said you both got one, "Yes!"  They continue to go on about them, plus their new chickens, goats, etc. all brought home in the last week.  I'm not bitter about the bunny as he went to an awesome home with a little boy who has trouble reading, and the bunny loves to be read to; his parents heard him reading a book out loud that first night.     Yet, I can't help but feel lied to by that mom.  I believed her, why would she lie when she could have been honest if they didn't want him?  It just makes me question more, wish I didn't but otherwise I end up feeling stupid for believing people.

I told his mom one time about some of the stuff that he had done and she said, "Oh, he would never do that."

Yes, that's why it's hard to talk to anyone about it.  I mentioned to my husband once something his mom said to me word for word and got the same response.  We were looking at adoption and she said, "Why would you want to do that when you could have one of your own?"  I'm adopted... .  I felt like trash, but he kept swearing up and down she didn't mean anything bad by it.  Well, she didn't mean anything nice by it either, .  People don't like their idea of people they love to show cracks.   

I was only 18 or 19 at the time so I was still pretty naive.

BFF met her husband at 17, engaged within weeks, married within the year.  Unfortunately, he is probably NPD now they are divorced 5 years later after his 3 affairs, one she found out about before she even married him, and their daughter is shuffled back and forth each week.  I met my husband at 20 and he was the nicest man I had met.  We were married 2 years later, and I feel we rushed it.  I realized I needed the marriage to feel secure.  I wish I could have gained a stronger sense of myself back then so I could have made some better decisions sooner and felt more prepared instead of just ending up somewhere.  We're just now settling into the life we should have started 14 years ago without insecurities and uncertainties... .actually figuring out what we truly want.  It feels good to feel settled.

How would you feel if you told somebody about their untied shoes and then ignored you and tripped anyway?

I'd feel bad that they tripped just like I would feel bad for someone who got hurt in an accident, got their heart broken, or had a pet die.  I have a big heart, I always have.  Would I have felt responsible for them tripping no.  I would have felt good I warned them, if they choose not to do anything about it that's totally up to them.  If I had not warned them and they tripped I would have felt awful, especially if they got seriously hurt.  What if I didn't tell them, they tripped while stopping at the crosswalk landed in the street and got ran over by a car?  Yep, I'd feel devastated... .  That's just how my mind works.  On a summer vacation some kids played a prank on our tour guide by not telling him water spilled on his seat so when he sat down it looked like he wet his pants.  I saw, I said nothing, I felt awful... .it's a tiny little sad spot I carry inside.  I should have said something, I don't dwell on it but I wish I had been better that day and not wanted to fit in with the other kids and told him.

The fact that I have chosen to end the relationship is not a sign that I did not love him unconditionally. I still love him. My best friends know this, my boyfriend knows this, and my children know this. I had to make a choice. I had to choose between me and my stbx. I finally decided to choose me.

Absolutely, and I hope I didn't imply that.  I know I will always love BFF, and I know that one day I may choose to no longer be there.  I couldn't say that before... .this last time though, I really needed her.  That made me see it, finally I guess.

I was having a down mental health time and wanted to speak to my one friend who gets depression who wouldn't just give me the "you'll be ok" mantra, but she wasn't there for me.  I called she didn't answer, she texted and I tried to get the girls together for the week, she made excuses but didn't gave me an answer.  When i texted later that night to ask for an answer one way or another she said she'd call me the following day.  She didn't... .I realized how many times I called and she didn't answer, when I had good news, when I had bad news, when I simply wanted to hear my friend's voice.  It made me so sad... .I wrote an email and I sobbed through the whole thing, I bared my heart.  Her response was not to talk to me for a week, when I finally drove over there after a week NC because I wanted to know what was up she seemed fine and gave me a hug.  Then when I tried to talk to her she said my email was nasty, and that I was clingy.  She said it wasn't important to her if our girls got together.  Also, that she didn't always make everything about her... .after which she took 5 steps turned around and started into a tangent all about her.  *sigh*  When I went to leave she went BPD and didn't want me to go, saying she didn't care if I stayed but she could use help with a horse.  I stayed a few minutes, then left... .I had to get away from her, she was acting like everything was fine and she wasn't there for me when I needed her.  She said she always would be, that I never had to feel alone... .and I believed her.  I felt dumb.  That night I got the call from boyfriend that she was kicked by a horse and trauma hawked to the hospital. 

Other than her daughter's party I haven't seen her... .I feel like we were probably invited for show.  Other than one call nothing.  I told her she's taught me not to call, so I haven't.  I texted to see if she was feeling okay after she had almost a week of not being able to keep food down.  No response.  She's taught me not to text, so I haven't.  She has something of mine and now I have no idea how to get it back... .she always asks to borrow it when we're rocky.  I think so I have to get it back from her.  Didn't realize that until this time.  I don't want to call and text, so I haven't gotten it back.  My daughter and I have birthdays in a few months so I'm thinking of waiting until then... .  maybe that's me being selfish wanting to see her, and selfless wanting to give my daughter the one thing she wants to see her friend.  So I'm trying to choose me... .I'd say I'm doing pretty good, but it's still hard.

[DearBFF]

 balletomane!

I knew about my ex's mental health problems from the outset. He was a good friend for several years before we became a couple and he talked to me about what went on in his psychiatry appointments.

Out of curiosity, afterwards... .did you ever feel like he might not have been as open with you about them as you first thought?

I dated him anyway because I wasn't planning on entering a relationship with a diagnosis, but with a person. I believed (and still do believe) that people with BPD aren't just mental health problems on legs.

I love that!  Well, said... .I agree!

I would want my partner to be open with me about his health, but at the same time I'd see a friend who tried to give me info that he had held back as breaking his confidence.

The thing to me is that I feel like I have to hide it for her, and that doesn't feel good.  Sometimes I am in situations where I blatantly disagree with something she is saying (in my head not out loud).  I know that she sees it the way she does because of the BPD... .we all see things differently, I get that, but her perspective can be warped at times.  She'll say someone did something and I see it differently, or she'll speak as if she knows for a fact that person's motivations for doing something.  I may know otherwise.  Then I feel like I need to make myself scarce or simply leave.  She is telling these things to someone new.  Someone who doesn't know the other person and/or wasn't there to see it happen so they sometimes look to me.  I do not want to validate what I see as her BPD perception.  No, she BPD is not all she is, but it can make her see things in ways... .well, it's like she has BPD glasses on.  

What if it was you... .you're the friend of someone with BPD and the new person is being told a story by the person with BPD.  Say that new person, they read something on your face, and later say they thought you looked like you disagreed with what the pwBPD said.  Would you lie and say you agree completely, change the subject, say you see it differently?  See I alway feel like I get put in those kind of situations... .I'm not talking about... ."Hey you, new boyfriend, nice to meet you.  By the way, I think your girlfriend has BPD."  I'm talking about feeling I need to hide it for her, and I hate that feeling.

Put it this way - if you had a health condition, and for whatever reason you weren't comfortable talking about it with a partner, how would you feel if your best friend made that disclosure for you? Whether your friend is right to hide her diagnosis from her boyfriend is a completely separate question from whether it would be right/useful for you to intervene.

I'm am a ridiculously open person.  I learned a long time ago that secrets come out eventually, and keeping them is way too stressful.  It makes me feel like I'm not on good terms with people I like and it makes me afraid of people I don't like because they could spill the beans so to speak.  If I am close to someone and they in any way are worried about me, try to talk to me about something and feel I am not listening... .if they approach my husband (for instance) and ask for his advice, ask for him to talk to me, or for him to help them talk to me about it, I am completely okay with that.  When I have people that love me I know they have my best interest at heart, and if they ever feel it necessary to do that I will know either I didn't make them feel like they could open up to me, or I didn't listen enough when they approached me about it.  I wouldn't shoot the messenger so to speak.

I think to answer your question I'd need to know the health condition?  Is it contagious?  Is it life threatening?

I don't feel I am coming from a place of whether or not BFF is right for withholding the extent of her mental health issues, behaviors, history, etc... . I feel like I am coming from a place of is it right for me to withhold that, and hide it for her.  That's how I feel.

Also, there was a time BFF was doing some things I disagreed with and she had told me she would not do them around her daughter.  I came over once to find her daughter there while she had been doing them.  I tried talking to her about it, she did not listen so I did call her brother and talk to him about it.  It was my hope he would discuss it with her and leave me out of it, but he didn't; which I don't blame him for honestly she's his sister and he told her what he felt he needed to.  She was pissed and I have people who said I should not have told him... .yet, I have had others say they understand why I did.  I always told her I would put her daughter first, she is a grown woman and can take care of herself, but some of her decisions put her daughter in danger and that's not ok.  Rather I talk to her brother who can talk to her, than something worse happen down the line than her not talking to me because she was upset.  After that guy was gone she was talking to me again, she said she was sorry for reacting like she did. She said if she ever ends up with another guy like him, with his habits, and she is doing stupid things for me to snap her out of it any way I need to.  She said she finally realized I only had her best interest and more so her daughter's best interest in mind, because I love them both so much.

I know many may dislike my decision for telling her brother, saying it was none of my business, not my kid, etc... .and they're completely entitled to their opinion, plus, I see where they are coming from.  Yet, I will never be sorry I told him.  It is what I needed to do at that time in that moment because if something happened and I did nothing, I would have had a hell of a time being okay with that.  Honestly, telling him only backfired on me, but I was still ok with it.  If I was in her position and my child could have gotten hurt or taken away from me, I would hope I would have someone who cared about me and my child enough to do the same.

[Makersmarksman]

Ha, so now that I am am 45 and not 25 I do know what the red flags were.  On the FIRST date:

1.  She gave me, to keep and possess, a hand written poem she wrote in high school about her chronic depression.

2.  She went on and on about how terrible her childhood was

3. She told her her greatest fear was "to be like her mother"

4. We had (amazing) sex on the first date

I took all of this as "she is really into me", "WOW, I will this girl's knight in shining armor", and "wow, this chic really trusts me already, no problem getting into her pants pronto... "

20 years later, 3 children later and a pending divorce... .I am actually anxious to size up my next date whenever that may be, definitely know what to avoid.

[JerryRG]

Same here Makersmarksman

My exgf fell in love with me in 5 minutes and I remember the first night with her, stopped to get a burger and the woman that waited on us was nice and smiled at me, I looked over at my ex and she was fuming with jealousy, glaring eyes, "do you know her"? She asked me... .Hi Honey I'm home... .

Dad abandoned her as a child

Her mother was a b****

Drug abuse

Raped numerous times

Sexually abused by dad

OH I almost forgot the best one, I was sexually abused from 2? To 4? (It's not clear to me yet it ended before I was 5)

After my exgf told me she was abused as a child she changed her story to it happened when she was a newborn just to compete with me  

4 years later one son and begging for death a few dozen times

But my life is better and hers hmmm, thinking no.

[troisette]

I wish I had known DearBFF.

I wish I had known about BPD too.

If someone had warned me I would probably have continued the relationship because I was head-over-heels, BUT, I would have been more wary. (I'd had a previous relationship with an NPD so would have taken it seriously and been more alert than I was and would have got out earlier.)

I am as certain as I can be that my ex is a quiet, high functioning BPD - so it's not obvious to those who are not intimately involved with him. He meets all the diagnostic criteria for this type. I think it's dangerous ground for you to mention BPD to her partner as she is undiagnosed. Also a violation of your friendship and his relationship with her.

I have not mentioned my conclusions about my ex to any of his group. For the reason above.

I also think that some hard soul searching of your motives may help. I'm not suggesting that you have an ulterior motive but self-examination could be helpful. I say this because you are projecting far into an imaginary future which may never happen. This could be your stuff not theirs.

If you see troubles in their relationship you could drop a hint, but I wouldn't mention BPD.

Good luck.

[Grey Kitty]

You are concerned that the bf is going to get hurt by your BFF, and that is both valid and likely.

I would note that in general, people are attracted to a pwBPD because they have their own issues (perhaps codependent?) and get sucked in by the positive side, then get chewed up by the negative side... .people who are far healthier don't find the idealization attractive--it seems kinda fake and weird. So perhaps he needs to confront this lesson himself, for his own reasons. You aren't there to save him from himself or from her.

You seem to have figured out that telling him about BPD isn't likely to go well for anybody, and I concur.

There may be times and places where acknowledging her behavior (which you know comes from BPD traits) is appropriate. At those times, it may also be appropriate to suggest constructive or helpful responses (which you have learned here in how to deal with a pwBPD). None of this requires talking about the disorder itself at all.

I think the biggest concern for you here is triangulation. If BFF is mistreating her bf and bf comes to you, and you get the urge to rescue him / protect him from her... .that's where the mess starts, and it just goes downhill from there!

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle