If you knew then what you know now...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Did you know close to the beginning of the relationship? Were you able to make a choice?  :)id they tell you? Did someone else? Did you figure it out on your own?

I had zero idea that things would turn out the way that they did with my uBPDex. Relationships are always a choice, so sure, I had a choice. She hinted that she had experienced difficulty in close, intimate relationships, and that she didn't feel entirely stable emotionally or in her life. There were red flags that I could/should have paid more attention to, but I did not - and I honestly don't think that I could be expected to (pwBPD are very good at hiding and minimizing their dysfunction, for a while at least). I thought that her awareness and honesty surrounding her own issues was refreshing, and indicated that she was working through all of that, even successfully. Not so much, as it turns out. I think that she was desperate to find a romantic partner who would be able to negate her relationship-based issues. I wasn't that guy (pretty close, though!), because that guy does not exist.

If someone would have told you would you have believed them?

That's pretty hypothetical in my situation. I think it would depend on the bias of the person who was "telling me". I would have given it some thought, for sure. I did sometimes get vague, conciliatory "good luck, buddy, you're in for some trouble" vibes from some of her friends (but nobody said that directly to me, so I might be misinterpreting).

Would you have chosen to end the relationship?

Probably not. I wasn't having any trouble with her until I was having all the trouble with her, suddenly. I tend to trust my experience with people, and not hearsay. And sometimes I get burned, but sometimes I don't. Y'know? The rewards of being with her far exceeded the difficulty, up to a point.

[MapleBob]

Did you know close to the beginning of the relationship? Were you able to make a choice?  :)id they tell you? Did someone else? Did you figure it out on your own?

I had zero idea that things would turn out the way that they did with my uBPDex. Relationships are always a choice, so sure, I had a choice. She hinted that she had experienced difficulty in close, intimate relationships, and that she didn't feel entirely stable emotionally or in her life. There were red flags that I could/should have paid more attention to, but I did not - and I honestly don't think that I could be expected to (pwBPD are very good at hiding and minimizing their dysfunction, for a while at least). I thought that her awareness and honesty surrounding her own issues was refreshing, and indicated that she was working through all of that, even successfully. Not so much, as it turns out. I think that she was desperate to find a romantic partner who would be able to negate her relationship-based issues. I wasn't that guy (pretty close, though!), because that guy does not exist.

If someone would have told you would you have believed them?

That's pretty hypothetical in my situation. I think it would depend on the bias of the person who was "telling me". I would have given it some thought, for sure. I did sometimes get vague, conciliatory "good luck, buddy, you're in for some trouble" vibes from some of her friends (but nobody said that directly to me, so I might be misinterpreting).

Would you have chosen to end the relationship?

Probably not. I wasn't having any trouble with her until I was having all the trouble with her, suddenly. I tend to trust my experience with people, and not hearsay. And sometimes I get burned, but sometimes I don't. Y'know? The rewards of being with her far exceeded the difficulty, up to a point.

[DearBFF]

 Makersmarksman!  Thank you for your response.

I took all of this as "she is really into me", "WOW, I will this girl's knight in shining armor", and "wow, this chic really trusts me already, no problem getting into her pants pronto... "

It is so interesting that for them sometimes (maybe a lot of the the time) sex is more to feel better and has nothing to do with trust; as well as a distraction to avoid dealing with something.  BFF met some guy through facebook and I guess he was a friend of a friend.  So she trusted him.  Invited him over, on a night she had her daughter.  She kept telling me she wanted me to stay, but I wanted out of there.  I'm glad I left... .after she got the guy to bed she went to bed with the guy.  It let me know she was not in a good place because that's not like her (the her she wants to be).  I've come to know that she is serious about a guy when they don't have sex right away.

It's hard because it really does feel like... .this person is so open to me and it builds this connection.  So from the start it just all feels so right.

20 years later, 3 children later and a pending divorce... .I am actually anxious to size up my next date whenever that may be, definitely know what to avoid.

Sorry to hear that, Makersmarksman.  I definitely size up friends differently. My biggest problem is that I hadn't had a best friend in over a decade so she was so welcomed into my life because she touched this place no one had touched in a long time, I have a hard time feeling that connected to a person.  With all the push and pull though I just kept endng up hurt and with an empty space I had gotten used to not noticing before.  I got so used to her that I had a hard time relearning to like things I used to and find enjoyment in them, because she replaced them in a way (not an unhealthy way)... .it's just that if I have a choice over doing something or being with someone I'll always pick someone.  It fills me up more than a thing.  Now I've had to let those things fill me instead.  Unfortunately, it takes way more things than people.  That part is a bummer.

Good luck, and take care! 

[DearBFF]

After my exgf told me she was abused as a child she changed her story to it happened when she was a newborn just to compete with me  

It's so strange to stand there and listen to a story when you know it's just wrong... .BFF will change the person to herself if it suits the conversation or person she is having it with.  Sometimes I wonder if she actually starts believing her own stories.

[DearBFF]

 troisette, and thanks for responding!

If someone had warned me I would probably have continued the relationship because I was head-over-heels, BUT, I would have been more wary. (I'd had a previous relationship with an NPD so would have taken it seriously and been more alert than I was and would have got out earlier.)

I think that most people just wouldn't have a reference.  I had heard the words narcissist, psychopath, antisocial, etc... .but I don't think I knew what personality disorder meant.  Having experienced someone with it would have made it much more understandable and I would have known what to expect.

I am as certain as I can be that my ex is a quiet, high functioning BPD - so it's not obvious to those who are not intimately involved with him. He meets all the diagnostic criteria for this type.

I feel like at one point in my life I might have been diagnosed as a quiet borderline myself, but I may not have met enough symptoms at one time.  Almost no one in BFF's life would ever believe BPD because they've possibly only seen 1/10th of her.

I also think that some hard soul searching of your motives may help. I'm not suggesting that you have an ulterior motive but self-examination could be helpful. I say this because you are projecting far into an imaginary future which may never happen. This could be your stuff not theirs.

If I told him... .not planning on it, but if I did it would be for the following:

*I feel like he would choose to stay if he knew, but if it comes out of nowhere and he only finds out she lies for instance but has no reference for it then he'll leave.  Also, I feel like if he did know and might choose to stay that'd benefit her obviously.

*Lying/dishonesty is a HUGE dealbreaker for him and I can feel like I am being dishonest with him by not sharing it.  I feel that he will dislike me after and may label me dishonest, as I can see how someone could feel I was hiding it for her.

*I don't want him to get hurt... .he's an amazing guy.  He's done so much in his life right, and I hate to see him dragged down by her.  (I hope that doesn't sound too awful, she's my friend, but honestly I feel that way.)  :'(

[DearBFF]

 Grey Kitty!  Thanks for responding!

You are concerned that the bf is going to get hurt by your BFF, and that is both valid and likely.

Thank you! 

I would note that in general, people are attracted to a pwBPD because they have their own issues (perhaps codependent?) and get sucked in by the positive side, then get chewed up by the negative side... .people who are far healthier don't find the idealization attractive--it seems kinda fake and weird. So perhaps he needs to confront this lesson himself, for his own reasons. You aren't there to save him from himself or from her.

That is an excellent point!  I had never thought of it this way, that it's something he may need in his life (or I suppose he would have attracted her or been attracted to her).  In his last relationship his girlfriend broke up with him by text message and immediately started seeing someone else (or had been before the breakup).  It sounds like he chased her... .he couldn't let her go.  He told me the story and he said he learned from it, but if BFF doesn't just cheat on him or turn full BPD rage to chase him off I could see him just blaming himself for anything that goes wrong and chasing her too.  I guess he needs the lesson that sometimes, it's not you.

There may be times and places where acknowledging her behavior (which you know comes from BPD traits) is appropriate. At those times, it may also be appropriate to suggest constructive or helpful responses (which you have learned here in how to deal with a pwBPD). None of this requires talking about the disorder itself at all.

That is exactly what I see happening.  If he is having a problem and comes to me (as a friend of his and a friend of hers who gets her), I don't want to feel like I have to lie and say "oh no it's fine it's in your head" as I cannot do that.  When something goes wrong with a pwBPD you can literally start to feel crazy, like maybe it is all in your head.  I wouldn't want him or anyone to feel like that.  Validating someone's feelings can be so helpful.  To me I can validate his feelings as someone who knows what it feels like, and yes offer advice.  Maybe leave her name out of it, but say something like "I've had an experience like this and it ended up the person reacted like that because of x, y, z.  Maybe this is what is happening here... .perhaps you could try approaching it like this."  Just so he doesn't feel nuts and has some direction.  I felt so lost every time I was hurt becaus no one could give valuable feedback/advice that didn't include RUN or something about her being awful.  While I now know their feedback was valid as it was based on their impression of the situation, I had a hard time hearing it because I loved her so much as soon as they said something bad it's like nothing else they said mattered.  Also, none of it was constructive and no one offered an explanation of why someone would act in the ways she was that I so desperately wanted to understand.  I feel like I can also offer her validation because when she does explain her feelings I can easily see why she reacts the way she does, but when she doesn't it is very hard to deal with her.  It's like you know something else is going on, but she won't share it so then you just have this nagging feeling you're missing something.

I think the biggest concern for you here is triangulation. If BFF is mistreating her bf and bf comes to you, and you get the urge to rescue him / protect him from her... .that's where the mess starts, and it just goes downhill from there!

The triangle has been mentioned me on the boards a few times, but I had never thought of being in it with both her and him.  I feel like I've gotten to a place where I could be there for them both as a third party, but not inject myself into the middle.  Just kind of offer an outside perspective, but say I feel the other person has valid reasons for doing/feeling as well.  Plus, I know it's a perspective/advice he won't get anywhere else because no one else knows.  I just want to feel like I don't have to lie for her, and I feel like that's what it would come to.  I can say things like "yes that does sound frustrating" etc... .and offer suggestions on how he might deal with it, if she gets mad at that, well that's her decision.  I have to feel good about my interactions with people and not like I have to walk on eggshells for her, especially when I like them as a person.  He deserves my honesty... .although I know he doesn't necessarily deserve her secrets coming from me.  I guess I just don't want him to ever blame me or distrust me over withholding that.  I feel like that's selfish on my part, but it is how I feel.

[DearBFF]

 MapleBob and thank you for your response!

There were red flags that I could/should have paid more attention to, but I did not - and I honestly don't think that I could be expected to (pwBPD are very good at hiding and minimizing their dysfunction, for a while at least). I thought that her awareness and honesty surrounding her own issues was refreshing, and indicated that she was working through all of that, even successfully.

I just got a response on one of the boards recently that when someone tells you who they are, believe them.  It's hard when it's a pwBPD though because they can tell 20 different people that they are 20 different people.  It's nearly impossible to see them all.  I would say I've just gotten close to there, and it's been over a year and a half.  BF has been with her just over 7 months.  She keeps him at a distance so it could take him twice as long to see... .with me she kept me stuck to her like glue.  I have a flexible schedule adn I love spending time with people, so if they're running errands or cleaning the house I have no problem just hanging out and chit chating or helping even.  The thing is this time and closeness allowed me to peek beind the curtain so to speak.  I have no idea how long it will take him.  They do not live together and seem to only see each other a few times a week, mostly after she's done work and exhausted so she often falls asleep.  I has her when she was going through a divorce, and thought she might lose her daughter and had to move out of her house, and on and on... .  a healthy person would lose it then, so I saw EVERYTHING.  Even recently when she got hurt and ended up in the hospital I talked to him on the phone and said if she needed me to come help a few days after she got home I'd be happy to, she wasn't supposed to lift anything heavy and had loads of laundry to do.  Plus, it would give him a break to catch up on work since he'd probably been at the hospital with her the whole time.  I did my best to cover my surprise when I found out that he hadn't even taken time off work, she wouldn't let him, and he said he had to argue with her in order to visit her at the hospital.  She barely let him visit, and he only stayed with her the first night she was in the trauma center.  I was so thankful for him because if it was me she wouldn't have let me leave her side, and I would have felt awful trying to get away!  I think she feels if she can keep him away then she'll appear normal longer... .or just learn to not show him her symptoms, but I feel like it's probably impossible she just hasn't realized yet.  Pulling the wool over someone's eyes is not getting better.

I think that she was desperate to find a romantic partner who would be able to negate her relationship-based issues.

Exactly... .I think she feels like boyfriend does just that.  He's somehow ok with barely seeing her and takes her "I'm busy/tired/etc" excuses, when she just uses those to push people away.  Eventually they will move in together and then she can't send him away, it'll be his house too.  I guess then she'll do what she did with last boyfriend and just work constantly, but that won't work so well because they plan to move into the apartment above her work.  She won't be able to get the space she needs to hide.  Not sure what she'll do then.

I did sometimes get vague, conciliatory "good luck, buddy, you're in for some trouble" vibes from some of her friends (but nobody said that directly to me, so I might be misinterpreting).

Oh wow, that's interesting.  I think she knows that the only person who knows her well enough is me. 

I believe she did actually want me to tell him, at least not in so many words, but I spoke to him on the phone (she asked me to).  When I got off and talked to her she asked if I told him that she was a damaged mess.  Of course I didn't, and she genuinely seemed disappointed.  It's like she wanted me to prepare him for her to be a disaster.  So she wouldn't have to I suppose.

Probably not. I wasn't having any trouble with her until I was having all the trouble with her, suddenly. I tend to trust my experience with people, and not hearsay. And sometimes I get burned, but sometimes I don't. Y'know? The rewards of being with her far exceeded the difficulty, up to a point.

I agree... .  it's when it's more black than white that things go sideways.

Take care 

[balletomane]

 balletomane!

I knew about my ex's mental health problems from the outset. He was a good friend for several years before we became a couple and he talked to me about what went on in his psychiatry appointments.

Out of curiosity, afterwards... .did you ever feel like he might not have been as open with you about them as you first thought?

He told me he had been diagnosed with BPD. He might not have been honest about everything, but to be fair, the same could be said about any other person we meet in life - even if they share the details of their private medical appointments, you can never know they're telling you everything, and you may only be getting their perception of the appointment anyway. This doesn't bother me, because even when I was his good friend, he didn't owe it to me to provide me with a painstakingly accurate account of every meeting he had with his doctor. That's his business.

In another of your posts above, referring to your ability to pass information on to your friend's boyfriend, you write, "I think that she knows the only person who knows her well enough is me." Your question can easily be flipped on its head: how can you be so sure that you know her so well, that you have such an accurate picture of her and her life? From your posts it seems like you strongly believe that you have special knowledge and insight into her that no one else has, and like troisette, I think you need to look at the thoughts and motivations behind this belief.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you've written it also sounds as though she has never been formally assessed for BPD, but you decided she has it after reading out a list of BPD difficulties and traits and getting her to say yes or no to them. ("I didn't know about the cutting until I brought up BPD and she said yes to that symptom when I read it to her." You are not a qualified professional, it wouldn't be your place to start diagnosing a friend even if you were, and going through a checklist isn't a good way to get a picture of someone's difficulties anyway. Telling someone's partner about BPD on the basis of an armchair diagnosis is even more problematic than spilling the beans about an actual diagnosis. You've also written that in the past you felt you had BPD traits yourself - can you be sure you're not projecting your own issues onto someone else, or trying to meet a need of your own (for example, a need to ensure that you hold the most special place in your friend's life and are her main support)? You are spending a lot of time and effort in analysing someone else's relationship and discussing it with strangers online, responding to every post in minute detail, and to be honest this suggests to me that you are deeply invested in their relationship in a way that isn't usual even for a close friend.

The thing to me is that I feel like I have to hide it for her, and that doesn't feel good.  Sometimes I am in situations where I blatantly disagree with something she is saying (in my head not out loud).  I know that she sees it the way she does because of the BPD... .we all see things differently, I get that, but her perspective can be warped at times.  She'll say someone did something and I see it differently, or she'll speak as if she knows for a fact that person's motivations for doing something.  I may know otherwise.  Then I feel like I need to make myself scarce or simply leave.  She is telling these things to someone new.  Someone who doesn't know the other person and/or wasn't there to see it happen so they sometimes look to me.  I do not want to validate what I see as her BPD perception.  No, she BPD is not all she is, but it can make her see things in ways... .well, it's like she has BPD glasses on.

It is not your responsibility to go through life giving your friends' partners alternative versions of events whenever they share something that doesn't match your perception of those events. You can't control that, and recognising this doesn't mean that you're endorsing her viewpoint. If she says something in front of you that you disagree with, disagree in the way you would disagree with any other friend. If you're asked directly, answer honestly. Otherwise, leave it. To be honest, right now it looks like you really want to talk to her partner about her problems and you're trying to find good reasons to do it.

[WoundedBibi]

It's hard because it really does feel like... .this person is so open to me and it builds this connection.  So from the start it just all feels so right.

I definitely size up friends differently. My biggest problem is that I hadn't had a best friend in over a decade so she was so welcomed into my life because she touched this place no one had touched in a long time, I have a hard time feeling that connected to a person.  With all the push and pull though I just kept endng up hurt and with an empty space I had gotten used to not noticing before.  I got so used to her that I had a hard time relearning to like things I used to and find enjoyment in them, because she replaced them in a way (not an unhealthy way)... .it's just that if I have a choice over doing something or being with someone I'll always pick someone.  It fills me up more than a thing.  Now I've had to let those things fill me instead.  Unfortunately, it takes way more things than people.  That part is a bummer.

Of course we all want to be with people, we're social beings. There is nothing wrong with that. Actually the reverse is true: not wanting to be with other people is a sign there is something wrong with a person.

BUT

what you wrote here (the quotes), the way you write about your BFF, her boyfriend, how afraid you are he might be angry at you if he ever found out you diagnosed there was something wrong with her but you didn't tell him, if you should tell him or not but no you never would but if you would, but he would be so good for her (complete denial that she is not able to make this into a sustainable adult relationship once he gets closer to her if she does have BPD), that she might be his dream woman (again complete denial what BPD is and that an adult relationship is not an option, completely surpassing the abuse that is standard in BPD relationships that you for some reason think he will be able to get past if he just knows she is mentally ill it's all fine): none of this is about her or him.

This is about you.

This is about the way you relate to people.

As you say you have a hard time connecting with people. And it seems once you do, you cling to them for dear life.

You're afraid for rejection, for abandonment. You're afraid to lose her boyfriend whom you see as a brother. Why do you see him that way? Because you really like who he is? How well do you really know this guy? How much time have you actually spent with him? Do you have siblings?

You write about your BFF almost as if you are the one who has the relationship with her. You describe some really off putting behaviour but between the lines there is this immense love for her. Perhaps you have traumabonded with her.

But at the very least it feels to me as if you are trying to arrange things for her, trying to avoid her boyfriend from leaving so she would benefit from having a good relationship. You're saving her from a disaster you have envisioned happening once he finds out something might be wrong. You are trying to save her.

And all the while you're not even in contact with her... Trying to avoid a disaster you think might happen (eulogy already dreamed up), writing here in detail, still saying you won't contact him but thinking of a million reasons you should, and you're painted black right now. What are you doing? Why are you investing SO much time, energy, effort in imagined scenarios for a 'friend' that right now does not consider you a friend? Trying to avoid abandonment that has already happened? Preparing for the friendship recycle? Of course the recycle will only happen once the boyfriend is out of the picture... What is your REAL aim with all of this? And don't talk about how wonderful he would be for her, this is about you. Why does it feel that your life revolves around her? Is she your only friend? Is she more important than your husband? Than your daughter? Why are you clinging to someone, dreaming up scenarios for her life, that has expelled you from her life?

You're in too deep. Into others, into their lives, their relationships, their perceived illnesses. Take a step back.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I saw what I wanted to see. I was looking through love goggles.  But, I was a rational person. I would have much appreciated someone factually describing problematic behavior patterns, or having a formal course of instruction pre-marriage designed to knock off the love goggles, or having someone forcefully explain that a longer courtship is a better way to see a person's true self. 

Not someone saying "dude, she's an abuser waiting to happen!"

Alas.

[jason1972]

Excellent topic and one i can totally relate to,i by myself connected the dots and diagnosed my wife with borderline disorder personality with narcissistic traits after 3 turbulent years and had never even heard of this disorder unlike bi polar like most people generally speaking... .now hindsight is a wonderful thing as we all know and but had i known that my future wife had this disorder in the beginning i know i would have read up on it... .and realised that this person would be way too much trouble... .i was blind sided... .i do wish that i was told earlier so i could have understood much earlier what was happening to me and what was going on in the relationship and i could have removed that being in denial feeling... .and the i can fix this mode (flawed thinking on my behalf)... .as i write this post my ex partner (we are still married another topic by itself) has already groomed the next victim and lives with him and her children literally a few months after we separated (my eyes are rolling)... .ive actually met him and an exchange of words occured and i did tell him the diagnosis i had made and kindly explained that nothing she says or does makes any logical sense... .in my book a heads up,whether he heeds the warning is upto him... .but i know all to well the events that will eventually take place... .ive done my bit so to speak... .do i believe it will make a difference?... .maybe,people are going to do what they want to do no matter what they get told... .i know this from experience... .for people that have never experienced someone with BPD seeing is believing... .im extremely lucky i never had children with my wife and had to endure 2 abortions because she tried to trap me... .ive had a relatively lucky escape... .im sure the new partner will see things much quicker because shes had 3 relationships prior all ending badly and will go through the same connecting the dots as i did... .im going to add that in the beginning of the relationship it was all exciting and new (part of the illusion) and that does affect how receptive you are to being told something... .just an additional thought.