WHY do you want to forgive him?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This came up in my therapy session today. I was talking about how hard it is for me to stay in anger, how I start seeing the soul inside my ex and want to have hope for him.

My therapist talked about the downfalls of being empathetic. We talked about how because of my history I don't want to give up hope. Giving up hope on others is like giving up hope on myself.

And then we talked about how fuzzy I get in that space with my ex. My hope is like a channel he swims up, all claws out, and tears me apart by opening my chest and starting with my heart.

She asked, "WHY do you want to forgive him?"

And I felt this big space open up inside me. It asks why I want to forgive this person who hurt me so badly. Why I can't just shun him and make him walk the plank (like my mother did to me). Why I can't ignore him and vanish him (ditto) Why I can't walk away the way the rest of society seems to so blithely ignore the suffering (that's me as a little child, covered with lice, starving and wanting rescue). Why I can't keep the hope for everyone (that's me even now, knowing that so many people would have given up on me but I did not give up on myself).

I didn't give up on me. I didn't give up on my kids I adopted from foster care. No one gets left behind.

And yet I need to leave him behind.

I hate this. I hate it because I believe we are all connected, and if only our society recognized the value of love from the womb to death we would all be in better places.

She asked WHY I want to forgive him and the truth is forgiveness is a way I keep connected to hope. I know I need to let that hope go into the universe, and let him save himself, because he won't let me or anyone else.

And I feel in my heart he will not save himself. If he does it will be a half-life.

I am grieving this like a death.

[HurtinNW]

This came up in my therapy session today. I was talking about how hard it is for me to stay in anger, how I start seeing the soul inside my ex and want to have hope for him.

My therapist talked about the downfalls of being empathetic. We talked about how because of my history I don't want to give up hope. Giving up hope on others is like giving up hope on myself.

And then we talked about how fuzzy I get in that space with my ex. My hope is like a channel he swims up, all claws out, and tears me apart by opening my chest and starting with my heart.

She asked, "WHY do you want to forgive him?"

And I felt this big space open up inside me. It asks why I want to forgive this person who hurt me so badly. Why I can't just shun him and make him walk the plank (like my mother did to me). Why I can't ignore him and vanish him (ditto) Why I can't walk away the way the rest of society seems to so blithely ignore the suffering (that's me as a little child, covered with lice, starving and wanting rescue). Why I can't keep the hope for everyone (that's me even now, knowing that so many people would have given up on me but I did not give up on myself).

I didn't give up on me. I didn't give up on my kids I adopted from foster care. No one gets left behind.

And yet I need to leave him behind.

I hate this. I hate it because I believe we are all connected, and if only our society recognized the value of love from the womb to death we would all be in better places.

She asked WHY I want to forgive him and the truth is forgiveness is a way I keep connected to hope. I know I need to let that hope go into the universe, and let him save himself, because he won't let me or anyone else.

And I feel in my heart he will not save himself. If he does it will be a half-life.

I am grieving this like a death.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Hurtin, Perhaps it would help to remind yourself that you are not responsible for the well-being of another adult.  It's that simple.  You can't solve his problems for him, and you shouldn't try.  To paraphrase a quotation from Kingsley Amis, "There is no point in trying to help those who on some level would fundamentally rather not be helped; to go on trying would be to yield to pity and sentimentality, or worse, and would be inhumane."  I'm paraphrasing a little here, but you get the gist.  In other words, Let Go.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

Does forgiving him mean you need to continue saving him, or let him hurt you more?

Can you forgive him AND choose to stay NC with him for your own sake?

[HurtinNW]

Does forgiving him mean you need to continue saving him, or let him hurt you more?

Can you forgive him AND choose to stay NC with him for your own sake?

I am hopeful I can, in the future. However for me forgiveness is a sense of openness, and that openness runs the risk of letting him back in. I went through this for many years with my mother, and also in this relationship.

My therapists wants me to keep connected to the anger for clarity. She says she isn't worried I will get stuck there.

What I am really feeling is that ending this (in my heart) means he is lost. I don't know if I am putting too much weight on my importance, but I do think it was the most important relationship in his life, and once he realizes it truly is over he will collapse. He's already collapsed. His family thinks he won't try anymore now that it is over. I wrestle with the fact I knew he tried in our relationship but it wasn't enough. I wrestle with still feeling the guilt, as if I am abandoning him when he was the one who kept ending it.

I care about him and worry about him. I feel sad and despairing over his life.

And yes, I am staying NC... .

[patientandclear]

It will not surprise you to hear that I have the same problem. I have spent so much effort and energy understanding WHY my ex acted like he took me/us for granted, broke promises, and punished my sincere efforts at communication. I do understand. It makes sense to me. What though is the relationship btwn my understanding of it, and the fact that he WAS a jerk in important ways on occasion? That his behavior WAS really hurtful?

I tend to use the understanding to neutralize the hurt. Because it makes sense to me why he did it, the hurt somehow doesn't count. I still struggle with figuring this one out. Not sure what the objectively right stance is, in a vacuum. However there is something in my past that makes it important to no longer forgive such hurtful acts toward me -- when forgiveness for me (like you) goes hand in hand with openness toward growth and continued experiences together.

This reminds me of my thread about atonement, where several posters including you, Hurt, pointed out as Grey Kitty does here that maybe forgiveness at a distance is an importance concept for us to practice. Separating forgiveness and understanding and caring, from openness to it continuing.

My ex SAID (last year, when he was pleading to resume the arrangement where I was his unacknowledged intimate partner while he pursued others) our r/ship was the most important in his life. That does make it hard for me. But. As a friend has pointed out, if that is true, he sure doesn't take care of it properly, in accord with its importance. And that does and should matter.

[Grey Kitty]

I think forgiveness is important for people who hang on to anger and grudges and resentment... .and in that context forgiveness is in the category of "Stop giving this person rent-free space in your head".

I view these people like your respective exes, P&C, HNW, as dangerous or toxic in their very nature, like a scorpion.

You don't blame a scorpion for being poisonous. You do stay a safe distance from it so it doesn't sting you.

Perhaps this is too harsh and judgemental about these people; I don't believe they are evil. They are damaged souls. They deserve compassion. They deserve to be loved. Just like anybody else on the planet. But they are not safe for you to be close to... .like the scorpion.

HNW, I suspect your therapist is correct--you aren't at much risk of getting "stuck" in your anger. (Have you ever done that before?) Your pattern is stuffing your anger, forgiving and going back to get hurt again and again, isn't it?

[Narkiss]

Hurtin: Can I ask this: are you still in contact with him or could you, if you wanted to be-- and that is what you struggle with, staying away? Whenever I begin understanding my borderline, even the vast hurt he has caused me, I feel overwhelming compassion and sadness and pity for him... .and forgiveness and love. And then I go back.

[HurtinNW]

Grey Kitty: I've never gotten stuck in anger before. There have been times I've been angry, but I know it was healthy anger. My anger at my mother came very late in our relationship and was the point I said "no more." I have never regretted that. You are right I tend to stuff my anger. Rather, I minimize it to myself. I am not by nature an angry person. Actually if you met me you'd say I am very positive, joyful person.

What is hard for me is to separate out that wonderful, positive, redemptive, strong part of me that is good, that has lead to good places (like adopting my kids and their growth) from the part of that where I have put myself in the place of forgiving and wanting to try again, and getting hurt with my ex.

My ex is a damaged soul and it is so very hard for me to walk away from seeing that. My therapist says the difficulty here is I am a person who can see the good and bad in someone, and hold both at the same time. It's a rare quality, and why I do the work I do. It's hard for me to let go. It's hard for me to give up. I hate giving up.

But you are right, you don't blame the scorpion for being poisonous. My ex is frankly poisonous to me. It breaks my heart to admit that, fully, to myself.

Narkiss: No contact, and yes I am struggling with staying away/letting go. My compassion for him is dangerous to myself, basically. I feel for him—I feel his pain even as he is incapable of feeling mine. And yes it makes me go back.

Patientandclear: Forgiveness at a distance, yes. Maybe what I am really expressing and working on here is not forgiveness as much as really letting go. Letting go of hope he will get better. Letting go of my connection to him through my own compassion. Letting go of my desire to save him and what that means to me in hope of getting the love I've wanted. It's losing on multiple fronts.

[Lucky Jim]

Maybe what I am really expressing and working on here is not forgiveness as much as really letting go. Letting go of hope he will get better. Letting go of my connection to him through my own compassion. Letting go of my desire to save him and what that means to me in hope of getting the love I've wanted. It's losing on multiple fronts.

Hey Hurtin', Agree, it's about letting go.  I would suggest that it can be liberating to let go of an outcome we can't control.  You can neither cure him nor save him, I'm afraid, and letting go of that responsibility may lighten your journey.  Many here have a fear of the unknown, which is understandable.  What I've found, though, is that the unknown can lead to greater happiness, which is what its all about, in my view.

LuckyJim

[joeramabeme]

My ex is a damaged soul and it is so very hard for me to walk away from seeing that. My therapist says the difficulty here is I am a person who can see the good and bad in someone, and hold both at the same time. It's a rare quality, and why I do the work I do. It's hard for me to let go. It's hard for me to give up. I hate giving up.

HurtinNW, You and I share similar emotional stuck points.  I want to share something my NEW therapist recently said to me; "you need to stop seeing yourself through others eyes".  I am not entirely clear why this keeps striking me as I read your post but will offer a quick thought about it.

It was not her pain and anguish that I saw that kept me feeling like I could see all the good and bad in the world and was spinning aimlessly; it was my pain I saw through hers.  Seeing my struggles reflected in her life was like me reaching out to save myself by saving her and feeling my feelings through her.  The longing to escape the gravitational pull of my past and remembering that I (she) could not escape the desires of wanting to be loved, knowing it was possible but not receiving what I needed and the scariest feeling of all; perhaps I am not lovable.

Not sure that this really makes a whole lot of sense, particularly given the acute pain you are feeling at the moment; but my gut tells me that something in "seeing myself through others eyes" holds a significant truth about the pain I feel when I look at my ex.  Perhaps this will hold some nugget of truth that will lead you to a greater sense of release.

My blessings and thoughts are with you.

[Narkiss]

Could you accept him the way he is? Do you think your love and compassion and sense of what he could be will change him? I keep falling into that trap, that I can be my pwBPD's agent of change (I hate the word save). I fall into thinking that I can be the one to spin him out of his orbit and help him do what he wants to do in life. That I can figure out a way how, if he'd only let me... .

[HurtinNW]

My ex is a damaged soul and it is so very hard for me to walk away from seeing that. My therapist says the difficulty here is I am a person who can see the good and bad in someone, and hold both at the same time. It's a rare quality, and why I do the work I do. It's hard for me to let go. It's hard for me to give up. I hate giving up.

HurtinNW, You and I share similar emotional stuck points.  I want to share something my NEW therapist recently said to me; "you need to stop seeing yourself through others eyes".  I am not entirely clear why this keeps striking me as I read your post but will offer a quick thought about it.

It was not her pain and anguish that I saw that kept me feeling like I could see all the good and bad in the world and was spinning aimlessly; it was my pain I saw through hers.  Seeing my struggles reflected in her life was like me reaching out to save myself by saving her and feeling my feelings through her.  The longing to escape the gravitational pull of my past and remembering that I (she) could not escape the desires of wanting to be loved, knowing it was possible but not receiving what I needed and the scariest feeling of all; perhaps I am not lovable.

Not sure that this really makes a whole lot of sense, particularly given the acute pain you are feeling at the moment; but my gut tells me that something in "seeing myself through others eyes" holds a significant truth about the pain I feel when I look at my ex.  Perhaps this will hold some nugget of truth that will lead you to a greater sense of release.

My blessings and thoughts are with you.

This really resonates with me. There is a strong sense in me that how he sees me is SO important. I've given him all this power to define me, to reflect back at me a vision of myself. When he reflects at me a monster, that is what I am afraid I am. When he would reflect back a good person... .oh my, nothing was better. I felt, for the first time in my life, truly loved.

So I have seen myself through his eyes, and perhaps... .I have associated his pain with mine, and mine with his. Our healing became intrinsically entwined. To leave him in his pain feels a lot like being left adrift in mine.

I know what I am feeling too is a primal wound. I was left abused, abandoned, hurt and terrorized in my childhood. This relationship reignited those wounds and left me in them. Each time my ex abused, raged and stormed off, I was left in this pain. There wasn't any kindness about the break, including the last one. His last words to me were cruel and hurtful. I know he is not capable of ending things with genuine kindness, but I think this being left hanging in the pain is part of the difficulty in letting go.

[HurtinNW]

Could you accept him the way he is? Do you think your love and compassion and sense of what he could be will change him? I keep falling into that trap, that I can be my pwBPD's agent of change (I hate the word save). I fall into thinking that I can be the one to spin him out of his orbit and help him do what he wants to do in life. That I can figure out a way how, if he'd only let me... .

Honest answer: I could have accepted him the way he is, if he changed the way he acted. I have a lot of stretch and if he had been invested in changing and learning, it could have worked. But he is not capable of reflecting, modifying his behaviors or addressing his problems.

I've also made the mistake of thinking I can be the one to help him, and truthfully, part of me still believes it. Part of the reason is he would tell me that I was his big hope, love of his life, nothing mattered more. Until he broke up again. But there was some truth to it, I think. His family recognized it. He cared more for me than anyone else in his life... and it wasn't enough. I find that heartbreaking. So I would get into the cycle of thinking, if only I explained it this way, if only I had done it that way. If only he had let me help. If only, if only.

Maybe that's a myth and illusion. I teeter between thinking we can help others and then thinking it is hard to help someone who denies they need help. The improving board here is a good example of how tricky those lines are. Much of how people here handle BPD/NPD honestly seems more about behavior conditioning and management than effecting any genuine change.

I know intellectually you can't help someone when you are target of their loathing. Emotionally it is hard to reconcile that the man I love has such loathing for me.

But I do believe that love and compassion are the most important parts of life, and can and do create amazing change. My kids are great examples of this. I know I cannot make my ex want to change. I can't make him let me help him.

This stuff is so hard.  :'(

[Grey Kitty]

But I do believe that love and compassion are the most important parts of life, and can and do create amazing change. My kids are great examples of this. I know I cannot make my ex want to change. I can't make him let me help him.

HurtinNW, are you worth being in a relationship with somebody who doesn't NEED to be fixed?

Yes you love this guy, or at least did. Yes, he loved you as much as he's capable of loving anybody.

But can you imagine being in a relationship with somebody who is fundamentally whole, instead of fundamentally broken?

[HurtinNW]

But I do believe that love and compassion are the most important parts of life, and can and do create amazing change. My kids are great examples of this. I know I cannot make my ex want to change. I can't make him let me help him.

HurtinNW, are you worth being in a relationship with somebody who doesn't NEED to be fixed?

Yes you love this guy, or at least did. Yes, he loved you as much as he's capable of loving anybody.

But can you imagine being in a relationship with somebody who is fundamentally whole, instead of fundamentally broken?

That's a good question. Maybe because I've feared being broken myself I don't feel worthy of an unbroken man. I'm afraid of being judged for my own fears.

I would be afraid that someone who was fundamentally whole would not understand my past.

Obviously I am assuming that they would not come from trauma themselves. Interesting. I'm assuming that any whole person would have always been whole, and would reject me for once having been broken myself.

Adding on to say I can see now it is the brokenness in my ex that attracts me. Wow.

[doubleAries]

yet another thread I want to follow! For the same reasons everyone else here states. I also grapple with why I either return or WANT to return. Like Patientandclear, I have spent a lot of time on understanding. Understanding (the other person) so I can excuse and tolerate their behavior.

I am, at present, concentrating on the Karpman triangle, the source of all dysfunction, and seeing how that "starting gate rescuer" role is almost my total identity. How this "forgiveness" and desire to "help" (a person that didn't ask for my help, by the way) is actually based in rescuer reactions. I want to see it as compassion, sympathy, love--many other labels that I don't see MYSELF in, but as "selfless" and external and giving (therefore of value). I think sometimes I have sympathy confused with value.

Just because I can sympathize with someone, doesn't mean I have to have them in my life (thanks for pointing that out me so many times, Grey Kitty!) and that death grip I have on sympathy helps me ignore the equal death grip on forced "help" as a means to worthiness. And the blurring of my own boundaries (I think we can also be boundary busters against our own selves).

I also get caught up in those "if only, if only... ." things--in other words, focusing on my fairy tale instead of reality. And when I DO look at the reality, it makes perfect sense that the loathing for me I see in him is a resentment that I have actually earned, because I am so convinced he needs my help and I am selflessly giving it--even though HE NEVER ASKED FOR MY HELP. Sometimes he tried to be grateful for that help, because that's what I wanted. But treating someone like they are perpetually broken and in need of your help, does in fact lead to resentment. The lament of the Rescuer is "after all I've done for you, this is the thanks I get?"

Maybe we need to learn to offer equality, instead of the dependence inherent in all this "help". We are absolutely, unshakably positive in our view that this person clearly needs help. And we are the ones to do it! If only they will let us! But maybe we need help too. And we should help ourselves instead of people who don't want it (in spite of our unquestioned belief that they NEED it). And I think some part of us at times also secretly hopes that once we have helped them, and "fixed" them, then they will help and fix us. This stays secret because we don't want to examine how we--"broken" as we are--are capable of helping them, but they--being broken--are unable to help us until they are "fixed".

www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

[patientandclear]

Maybe we need to learn to offer equality, instead of the dependence inherent in all this "help".

I think there is much to be said for this insight.

And also ... .

Equality is not necessarily what your pwBPD is looking for.  (I realize you just wrote him an email apologizing for helping and not treating him as an equal.)  I was scrupulous about treating my ex as an equal.  It did not change the punishing aspect of our dynamic that you also describe in your long reflective posts in this thread -- where he objects to being controlled when you ask for him to act like an equal, to treat you with a sense of equality.  My actions toward him as an equal puzzled my ex.  He wanted me to treat him as an equal in the sense that I accepted him exactly as he was and wanted to act, but not to treat him as an equal in the sense of expecting accountability and any obligation to respond to my needs, priorities, desires.

I just don't want you to over-ascribe the harmful dynamics to your helping instinct.  It may be the ultimate effort on your part to get some kind of control over the hurt to think that somehow you caused it by helping.  There are powerful dynamics that push against an "equals" approach in these relationships.

[Sunfl0wer]

Excellent thread all around!

Maybe we need to learn to offer equality, instead of the dependence inherent in all this "help". We are absolutely, unshakably positive in our view that this person clearly needs help. And we are the ones to do it! If only they will let us! But maybe we need help too. And we should help ourselves instead of people who don't want it (in spite of our unquestioned belief that they NEED it). And I think some part of us at times also secretly hopes that once we have helped them, and "fixed" them, then they will help and fix us. This stays secret because we don't want to examine how we--"broken" as we are--are capable of helping them, but they--being broken--are unable to help us until they are "fixed".

For me, I feel great value in the role of 'helping.'  It is not that when I am done helping someone that I am waiting to then be helped, it is that while I am helping I am thus helped.  The value that I receive while helping is how I define myself as having value.  When I am done helping, I feel less useful and seek a way to make myself useful again or else am left feeling useless.

When thinking of my ex, and especially the loss of my SD, I feel like I have failed.  I wonder who exactly it is that I have failed.  To think I have failed my SD is an easier way to place this feeling as she can easily be seen as helpless in this all.  However, I suspect I actually feel that I have failed myself.

I tend to believe and imagine that because all of these thoughts exist in my head and are creations of my own mind, then they really are all about me and have the ability to exist on their own without the others to project them onto, hence why I say I actually have failed myself in some way.

[Narkiss]

DoubleAries: Yes, I think my secret desire is for him to fix the hole inside me.

Patientandclear: but it is not equal. He wants me to accept him. He once told me that I am the only one who ever really accepted him (that apparently is not enough though). For the most part, he speaks to me tenderly, gently, lovingly. He compliments me and listens to me. But he doesn't accept and honor my needs, wants requests. When I have expressed them, he has either become vague and changed the subject or acknowledged them and disappeared.  So I learned to suppress them or leave them unexpressed, which makes me feel like I am disappearing.

[patientandclear]

Patientandclear: but it is not equal. He wants me to accept him. He once told me that I am the only one who ever really accepted him (that apparently is not enough though). For the most part, he speaks to me tenderly, gently, lovingly. He compliments me and listens to me. But he doesn't accept and honor my needs, wants requests. When I have expressed them, he has either become vague and changed the subject or acknowledged them and disappeared.  So I learned to suppress them or leave them unexpressed, which makes me feel like I am disappearing.

Yes, exactly.  Me too.  (And I was referring to DoubleAries' long posts about dynamics in her BPD relationship in her other thread about needing help ... .not this thread of HurtinNW.  DoubleAries' description is of a dynamic in which she bent over backwards not to ask anything for herself and not to be controlling because that was his accusation if she expected anything of him.)  For a little while, my approach to the r/ship with my ex was to ask nothing of him, partly because that way he couldn't hurt me by refusing it, and partly to show him I accepted him exactly as he was.  To honor and respect who he is.  But when he then treated me poorly, I began to assert my own needs, and indeed, to treat him fully as an equal, someone of whom I would expect good treatment and consideration of my needs and hopes.  When that happened, it was as if the r/ship got super confusing for him and lost most of its value.  He enjoyed the me who had no needs or expectations.  Getting me back there has been a project he's devoted a certain amount of energy to. But he simply refuses to engage when I have specific needs or want to work with him on setting our r/ship on terms that can work for me.

This is why I caution that no one should think this formula of "treat them as equals" is going to salvage the r/ship dynamic.  It's still good for us though, regardless of the reaction.

[vortex of confusion]

What would happen if you gave yourself permission to NOT forgive?

The only way I have been able to make any kind of progress is to give myself permission to NOT forgive. It isn't about wanting to be a negative nelly. It is about giving myself permission to identify and deal with the pain and the hurt and the resentment. I know myself well enough to know that I is my nature to forgive. Forgiving stbx may or may not happen.

I found a good article called 6 Reasons Not to Forgive

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/is-psychology-making-us-sick/201409/6-reasons-not-forgive-not-yet

I like all of the reasons. The ones that stick out for me are:

1. Urging forgiveness ignores the fact that anger naturally rises after being hurt and often needs to be integrated, not rooted out like some bacteria-borne illness.

4. Advising forgiveness can ignore the value of confronting an offender.

My typical mode of operation is to suppress anything I might be feeling, put on a smile, and move on. The only way I can let myself feel these feelings and process stuff is to give myself permission to NOT forgive. I have to process this stuff so I can protect myself and my kids. Forgiving him will only make it harder for me to protect myself and my kids.

[doubleAries]

I think a better word I could have used than "equal" is autonomous. And I think that many of us--but I'm speaking about myself--get "help" and "rescue" confused at times. The rescuing form of "help" becomes a cover for control.

So why do we cling so tightly to people we are convinced need help? And whether they do or don't need help, why do we insist on offering it when it hasn't been solicited?

There is also a fear of owning our own side of the street sans the justifications. Not necessarily the justifications for shabby behavior, but justifications for our "helping" behavior.

My former T utterly blew me away one time when I was talking about appropriate compromises in relationships (what is or isn't appropriate, and how do you make sure the sacrifices and compromises are evenly spread, etc) when he said "compromise is over-rated and doesn't work." WHA... .? Then how are you supposed to get along?

He said that healthy couples, when they reach the inevitable brick wall, respect each other enough to sit down and find a mutually agreeable alternate solution to the problem. That if you find yourself consistently "giving in" and/or asking the other person to give in (because it's their turn this time--we keep track to make sure it's pretty even, which is what we then call "fair" or "equal" then you are not in a healthy relationship. Sacrifice and compromise can be occasional expedient solutions, but not foundational to the relationship. Compromise causes resentment. The kind of resentment that cries out "but after all I've done for you!" or "after all I've given up for you!" Healthy couples don't take turns giving in to the other persons course when one or the other doesn't like that course--they each give up their course, and then find another one they BOTH can accept. If something is important to your partner but not as important to you, and you give in, that is not sacrifice. But when it's important to each of you, it is. Sacrifice leads to resentment and making yourself unimportant, to denying your own needs. Respect and boundaries lead to mutually agreeable alternate solutions. Wow. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Be patient with me--I'm really on to something but I have babble to spit it out succinctly. And I'm getting there. Very close now.

BOUNDARIES. That's what it comes down to. And in owning our own side of the street, we have to eventually come clean that continually offering help to someone who doesn't want it is called boundary busting. And if we back off and practice good boundaries, and allow this other person autonomy (no matter how deeply in need of help they may be) we will not rush to rescue, and note that they don't want help, but control. They want to take advantage, not share. That they want to be treated as equals but are unwilling to reciprocate. That they have a lot of needs but are unwilling to reciprocate in the giving. And then we will notice that we were, yes, taken advantage of, but that we played a role here, and our role was that of unsolicited rescuer, fixer, helper, selfless giver. We were the hand to their glove, just what they were looking for--and just what we were looking for. Instead of enforcing our boundaries and backing away from their lopsided behavior--especially when we voice our values and boundaries and they are ignored--we decide to "help". To "tolerate". To "understand" to the point of whatever degree of blurred identity. To fix them into who we want/need them to be.

So when we find ourselves in a relationship based on compromise, taking turns giving in, and sacrifice, instead of one that honors autonomy by looking for new courses of action that are mutually agreeable, and/or we find ourselves in a relationship with a partner who consistently won't even consider this respectful method, no matter how many times it is discussed, then it's time to let go. If we let go of our own dysfunction and they don't let go of theirs, then it's time to let go of THEM.

And that kind of letting go isn't about forgiving them for not being who we wanted them to be, it's about letting go because that isn't what we want for ourselves. And we accept that this isn't necessarily pain free, and that it's ok to grieve the loss of what we had, as well as what we WANTED and didn't have.

[HurtinNW]

This is a fascinating thread. Thank you! There is so much to think about here... .wow.

I have to admit I don't believe I really helped my ex. If I ask myself "How did you help him?" I start getting fuzzy. I think I tried to help him, in ways I wanted to be helped. I've described it before like little kids at a birthday party, each bringing the gift they really wanted. I gave my ex the help I wanted. I offered him a family, a partner, a warm and welcoming home, acceptance, intimacy, connection, a future together.

But maybe that wasn't the help he wanted. He wanted: distance, lack of pressure, no expectations, baby steps to commitment (if any), lack of accountability for behaviors.

My sacrifices in the relationship were more about accepting and minimizing his abuse and behaviors, accepting double-standards (he felt entitled to respect and admiration while treating others badly) and putting myself in harm's way. But that was all about me. I didn't have to do that. And it certainly didn't help him in any way.

There was a big part of me that kept thinking he would wake up and realize the preciousness of the gift I offered. It has been difficult to accept that it wasn't the gift he wanted, and I couldn't "make" him see that. In the end I was not helpful at all to him. In some ways I set a bar that was beyond his reach. It was probably pretty shaming to him, actually.

I totally agree about the compromises, doubleAries. In a healthy relationship these things resolve much more naturally, into couples find reasonably agreeable solutions. It often happens without people even noticing. Where do you want to go out to dinner? What do you think of taking the kids to this movie? Oh, you know, I never thought of loading the dishwasher like that. On up to serious questions.

The resentments start when someone feels unheard, and in relationships with BPD/NPD that is pretty much a common occurrence. Instead of stepping away we do start trying to assert influence and control, if only by trying to "help" the relationship by being a doormat, not having boundaries, and flailing around trying to change them.

[doubleAries]

I know that I did help my ex. His original diagnosis was paranoid schizophrenia with manic depression (because he doesn't hear voices or have other hallucinations, and the DSM is always changing to refine definitions, his current diagnosis is bipolar 1 mixed with psychotic features (paranoid delusions) and with bipolar driven narcissistic and anti-social personality disorders). He wasn't doing ANY treatment at all when I met him. After he had a pretty dramatic psychotic break around a year after we got together, I rushed to the rescue. I found him a great treatment that involves natural biochemical balancing, with very few side effects--which allows him to lead a pretty normal life. But, much to my disappointment, doesn't repair previous and permanent brain damage. Some things can't be fixed. He can't really do introspection, and his interaction skills are skewed and limited. And his coping method (narcissism and ASPD) are about the best he can do. Which sucks to deal with.

So I helped there--in a big way. YAY! But I couldn't leave it at that. Because I couldn't live with who he is. But I didn't want to give up. Like you, HurtinNW, I don't like to give up. I was abandoned (and have abandoned myself too) and, well... .you know... .do unto others as you would have them do unto you (which may have gotten a little twisted for me into "do unto others as you want them to do for you or as you need to do for yourself but don't really know how". Weird--how come I know how to do this for others but draw a blank about how to do it for myself?) So I stuck it out. Not always--I tried to get him to leave many times, but he wouldn't, and I was afraid of the massive upheaval that would have been required to MAKE it happen (him leaving). So I began to slowly but surely abandon myself again in favor of "helping" him (to become who I wanted him to be).

A good percentage of my "help" was actually my internal Karpman triangle turned outward, projected onto him. It was obvious to me, to him, to everyone else that I did not accept him autonomously, that I did not accept who he actually was. With good reason! He's pretty messed up! But I didn't offer him the autonomy of letting him be who he is--somewhere else. I tried to "fix" him. Not into an autonomous person, but into what I wanted. What I needed. I sacrificed myself on the alter of tolerating abusiveness in hopes for a "fair" exchange--that he become who I wanted him to be. So this wasn't a dysfunctional person being helped by a functional one. It was 2 dysfunctional people trying to meld their demons together, and struggling for whose was the more "righteous".

I also thought he would wake up and suddenly become grateful for the (dysfunctional) gift I was offering. And I can also enumerate the things I valued and wanted (and make them sound pure, clean, and healthy) and enumerate what he actually wanted (and make those things sound cruel, stupid, and selfish, because they don't match with mine), but what good does that do? All it shows is that I am still angry that he didn't want what I wanted. Allowing him to want something different than what I want, and accepting that it doesn't matter if mine are better than his, what matters is they don't match up, is an important step in letting go.

There are people in my life (my mother for example) who I will never forgive. This requires defining our terms--to me "forgiveness" is the other person has demonstrated that they are sincerely regretful for their actions/behavior, acknowledging it, and making an effort to change it. When someone is NOT sorry (forget whether they should be or not, that's a different issue) I don't have to forgive--but it may still be in my best interest to let go. I told my T years ago that I didn't know if counseling was going to work, because previous attempts at counseling led to counselors who told me I would never be a peace until I could forgive my mother. And I couldn't so I gave up. Waste of money. And that I still couldn't forgive my mother. I looked and looked for reasons/excuses for her behavior--things that may have happened to her to "cause" her to be the way she was (a sadist). And I wasn't finding anything in her background that could justify her rage and sadistic behavior. She just CHOSE to act like that. And was not at all sorry for it--in fact was dismissive of any confrontation about it and always felt and acted justified. So I couldn't forgive her. I was extremely relieved when he said "you don't have to. Why would you forgive someone who treated you that way? Especially when they are certainly not sorry for it and would like to continue to treat you that way some more?" But letting go of it has been important.

The starting gate rescuer forms of control are much more covert, so it's easier for us to claim we are trying to "help" rather than control. We have to own our own side of the street, or we will exchange one dysfunctional relationship for the next one. Over and over and over.  

[HurtinNW]

A good percentage of my "help" was actually my internal Karpman triangle turned outward, projected onto him. It was obvious to me, to him, to everyone else that I did not accept him autonomously, that I did not accept who he actually was. With good reason! He's pretty messed up! But I didn't offer him the autonomy of letting him be who he is--somewhere else. I tried to "fix" him. Not into an autonomous person, but into what I wanted. What I needed. I sacrificed myself on the alter of tolerating abusiveness in hopes for a "fair" exchange--that he become who I wanted him to be. So this wasn't a dysfunctional person being helped by a functional one. It was 2 dysfunctional people trying to meld their demons together, and struggling for whose was the more "righteous".

I also thought he would wake up and suddenly become grateful for the (dysfunctional) gift I was offering. And I can also enumerate the things I valued and wanted (and make them sound pure, clean, and healthy) and enumerate what he actually wanted (and make those things sound cruel, stupid, and selfish, because they don't match with mine), but what good does that do? All it shows is that I am still angry that he didn't want what I wanted. Allowing him to want something different than what I want, and accepting that it doesn't matter if mine are better than his, what matters is they don't match up, is an important step in letting go... .

The starting gate rescuer forms of control are much more covert, so it's easier for us to claim we are trying to "help" rather than control. We have to own our own side of the street, or we will exchange one dysfunctional relationship for the next one. Over and over and over.  

I suspect there is a lot of truth in what you said in my relationship too. I did not accept him. I wanted to think I was accepting him but not accepting his behaviors. But what if his behaviors are him? What if the behaviors are exactly what he is capable and desiring to offer? I rejected that, tried to change it, and essentially did not accept him.

I've very much portrayed his way as the wrong way and mine as right. Frankly, I think his way is unhealthy, hurtful and clearly not leading to personal happiness for him. Perhaps I have not honored his right to make a path that suits him. I could have chosen to either accept that path and walk it with him, or not accepted it and walked away. Instead I kept getting on the path even when I knew it was a path filled with scary demons, things that jump out at you, and all sorts of other dangers.

I wanted to be the functional one helping the other, as it seems some on the improving boards are. But it felt that 1) I was not able to maintain a sense of strength and self while dealing with his behaviors and 2) when I did he blew up and left. The last break up came shortly after I very kindly set a reasonable boundary. I think part of me always knew, and fought against, the knowledge that tolerating abuse was in fact the condition of our relationship.

The first six months were bliss. I know now that was probably idealization and mirroring. I suppose when the mask came off, and the abuse started, my dysfunctional response was to respond in maladaptive ways.

I completely agree with the article about forgiveness that vortex posted. I think women in particular are often told we have to forgive. It's a way of minimizing our feelings and the accountability of others. We are told we are shewish or ugly or have baggage when we want to process our real feelings.

[doubleAries]

Amen, sister!

women are also "told" that we have to put others before ourselves, or we aren't womanly.

And while I'm looking at my own side of the street, that doesn't mean I "forgive" or am blind to HIS side of the street, which was pretty chaotic. Nonetheless, why did you and I pick someone we didn't accept?

In a way, I'm going to have to maintain that forgiveness isn't really the issue here, as far the ex's. It's going to be forgiveness to ourselves, for treating ourselves so poorly, for allowing others to treat us poorly.

Many, many years ago, I was having a conversation with some friends that shocked me so much I never forgot it and still mull it over often. A very young man acquaintance of ours died of a drug overdose. We were all hashing this over. At one point I said the obligatory "what a waste of life" and one of the friends said "how do you know that?" I was a little stunned, and said "well, it's kind of obvious, isn't it? He was only 20 years old and now he's dead from something really stupid!" and he replied "OK, so it's clear this is not the path you envision for yourself, but this was HIS life, and he gets to choose what to do with it, even if it doesn't meet your approval." At the time I was shocked into silence--what a harsh and ridiculous thing to say! Hmmmm... .maybe not. I have thought about this many, many times over the years. My assessment of it has changed many times as well. I am a firefighter. Several of my friends have tried to "help" me stop doing this. It's dangerous, foolhardy, and  un-feminine. I understand that they are imposing their own core values on me. And they are quite sincere about it. They might change their tunes if their houses were on fire though.

I'm not saying our ex's were just fine and we're out of line. I'm just saying the only person we can change is ourselves. We've spent years pounding our heads against a brick wall trying to change someone else. We could forgive them for the abuse they dished out if we so choose. We can forgive ourselves for putting up with it and for our own dysfunctions. But there's no point forgiving someone for not seeing things the way we do. Not living the life we have chosen for them. Heck, I'm not even sure exactly what life I'm choosing for me!  

[vortex of confusion]

And while I'm looking at my own side of the street, that doesn't mean I "forgive" or am blind to HIS side of the street, which was pretty chaotic. Nonetheless, why did you and I pick someone we didn't accept?

I have been thinking about the notion that I picked someone I didn't accept. The person that I didn't accept was myself. I saw myself as the dysfunctional and broken one in the early days of the relationship. He was great. From all appearances, he didn't come from a dysfunctional home. I thought he was normal. I thought I could be "normal" with him. The problem for me was that I accepted too much. I thought that I was the one that needed to change. I needed to find more and better ways of changing myself. If I could find a way to change myself, then maybe things would be better. I don't feel like I tried to change him until the latter years when I figured out that maybe I wasn't quite as broken as I thought I was and that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't all that he claimed to be. And that his family wasn't the perfect little family that they proclaimed to be.

It's going to be forgiveness to ourselves, for treating ourselves so poorly, for allowing others to treat us poorly.

THIS! To heck with forgiving him or even thinking about him. I want to focus on forgiving myself and recognizing my own self worth. I may have grown up in a very dysfunctional FOO but that doesn't render me broken and worthless. I actually learned quite a bit and am rather resilient because of some of the crap that was doled out by my FOO.

I'm just saying the only person we can change is ourselves. We've spent years pounding our heads against a brick wall trying to change someone else. We could forgive them for the abuse they dished out if we so choose. We can forgive ourselves for putting up with it and for our own dysfunctions. But there's no point forgiving someone for not seeing things the way we do. Not living the life we have chosen for them. Heck, I'm not even sure exactly what life I'm choosing for me!  

I keep coming back to this notion that maybe I don't need to change myself as much as I need to accept myself. I shouldn't be in any relationship where anybody needs to change. I shouldn't have to change or jump through hoops and neither should my partner.

[patientandclear]

I don't know that it's so clear that we/you are not accepting who they "are."  Who they are is super confusing.  Isn't that part of the problem?  Often folks wBPD are masters at mixed messages.  My ex tells women exactly what they want to hear in their heart of hearts.  He is SO persuasive.  He is an incredibly effective pusher of buttons.  It takes a while, maybe a long while, to develop confidence in what is the core pattern.  Who is he really?  He may not know.  If he does, it is not always or even often what he shows.

It's important, I think, to allow yourselves some grace around the fact that what this really is and who they really are isn't written on a bill board.  It is HARD to discern until it's gone a few cycles around the track, and that is not a coincidence.  The methodology is playing on our values and seeming to align with them, at first, and then, for significant periods after.

For me, yes, there did come a point when I could no longer consume that apparent alignment literally and credulously.  I could see the pattern, and that stuff started to feel subtly (and thus, awfully) manipulative.  But jumping to the conclusion that others cannot be taken at their word and are likely to betray us ... .well, that's a BPD trait, right?  I don't see the value in castigating oneself for taking some time for that view to become the explanation one decides to adopt.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't know that it's so clear that we/you are not accepting who they "are."  Who they are is super confusing.  Isn't that part of the problem?  Often folks wBPD are masters at mixed messages.  My ex tells women exactly what they want to hear in their heart of hearts.

WOW, thank you so much for pointing this out. How could I accept somebody that seemed to change so much. It started out that he had pretty much abandoned his religion and did one thing. Then he changed to being super religious. I can't tell you the number of times he would renounce his church and then go back to it. He started out a heterosexual male wanting to be in a traditional monogamous marriage and then switched to being bisexual and wanting an open marriage. He came out to a bunch of our friends and claimed that he wanted to date guys. I would have been okay if he had sought out other men. He didn't do that. He only chased other women and then blamed it on sexual confusion. I was so unsure of who he was. I went so far outside of my comfort zone trying to be ok with him and figure him out and support him in whatever he did. It didn't work because it felt like I barely got a chance to get comfortable before he was throwing me some kind of curve ball.

[Herodias]

Forgive, but don't forget. The only way to know someone is truly sorry for what they do is that they apologize, repent and change their ways. If they do not do those things, they are not truly sorry and they will not change. It's as simple as that. I wish I was stronger about this a long time ago. There is a new theory on not forgiving them and forgiving yourself... .I suppose it depends on your religion or lack of. I struggle with this myself. I keep saying I forgive him as he knows not what he does, but then he goes and does something so awful again and I do believe he knows exactly what he is doing! I sometimes wonder how I would act if I saw him... .right now I feel I would not even look at him. Why should I? Why should I even talk to someone who lies all the time? He is not changing and clearly has moved on... .not wanting to change, but rather be with someone else he can continue his behavior with.