Are these really mixed messages or am I an idiot?

[Icanteven]

To recap a different thread, when my wife and I married each other, I knew of one mental illness that she and I both were relatively on top of.  Since our marriage, she's been officially diagnosed with multiple additional illnesses, in addition to being unofficially BPD (her doctors and therapists dropped me lots of bread crumbs, I just didn't know what they were trying to tell me till she left and got into therapy myself).

Today I called to tell her goodbye and that I was - in not so many words - going No Contact with her.  

She loves me.

She misses me.

She wants to be with me.

But our marriage is over.

She is not doing well in treatment and I'm not convinced that she's not been kicked out of the program she got into after leaving me.  Over the phone it's crystal clear that her mind is not right - her meds are not working via her own admission, and she makes multiple contradictory statements about why our marriage is over (mutually exclusive reasoning) - but she is in a place where she is done.

I wouldn't even ask, but it seems there are so many mixed messages in her conversation with me that I feel compelled:  what am I supposed to do here?  Her leaving was the result of an argument where she did something incredibly disrespectful to our marriage and I held her accountable for what she did, and I don't think between her family and past relationships anyone has ever created boundaries.

I would like to salvage our marriage if at all possible, and I'm not going NC as some sort of game:  I need this to heal myself.  But, I'm all out of ideas for what to do.  Validation sorta kinda worked till it didn't, as did SET (until it didn't).  

Last but not least, on paper, I should take this as a blessing that it happened now and not down the road:  the vibrant, amazing woman I married is now a husk of a human being; I have pages and pages and pages of reasons in my journal why I should take my financial lumps and walk away.  Only, there are eight little words that outweigh everything else:  She is my wife and I love her.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[drummerboy5]

I think she tells you all that so you don't move forward with your life. It's to keep you at arms reach so she can pull you in when she needs you... She may infact miss you and love you but doesn't  necessarily want you , but doesn't want anyone else to have you either. Once you move forward with your life without a pwBPD they are no longer in control.

That's my thoughts on the matter right or wrong. I don't think you are an idiot. I also think she want to keep you on your toes wondering.

I know it's hard as I'm at 6 months break up from my pregnant exBPD/npd that is silent. She has reached out a few times saying she missed me only to block me the next day. I honestly think my ex pops up here and there to see if I still care and to she if I miss her... Think of it as keeping the door open for future reunions. I'm confused and battling depression off and on. It's a very hard thing to love someone that is sick.

I'm just giving advice from my experience, only you know your ex and her behavior patterns. Every pwBPD is different and their own individual. Thanks for sharing you post

[Icanteven]

I think she tells you all that so you don't move forward with your life. It's to keep you at arms reach so she can pull you in when she needs you... She may infact miss you and love you but doesn't  necessarily want you , but doesn't want anyone else to have you either. Once you move forward with your life without a pwBPD they are no longer in control.

That's my thoughts on the matter right or wrong. I don't think you are an idiot. I also think she want to keep you on your toes wondering.

It's interesting you say that:  I made a post on Facebook when I was out with some friends and it generated a phone call 45 minutes later wondering what I was up to.  My post wasn't meant to really do anything so much as the typical reflexive narcissism Facebook engenders.  Another time I mentioned I was out and suddenly she was keenly interested where and who with. 

She is majorly, majorly damaged right now; she may well have someone else to move onto (or have already moved on), but he would be an idiot to even think about getting into that relationship given the myriad illnesses she suffers from as well as her current entanglement with me.  As my previous post states, I feel like an idiot for even wanting to continue this relationship:  her long term prognosis at this point is that she gets her GAF score high enough to achieve baseline societal functioning, and even if we reconciled I'll never get the woman I fell in love with back.  But, again, I vowed to love her for life no matter what, and I have every intention of honoring that vow if I can.

[livednlearned]

Hi Icanteven,

It can be baffling to try and understand her words and her reasoning because we approach these conversations, for the most part, with our rational minds. She is using her emotional mind, almost entirely.

She is on again and off again because the roller coaster of her emotions have her on again and off again. It can be hard for her to recognize that is what is happening because it's all she's ever known. Feelings equal facts. We experience this from time to time, and people with BPD tend to experience it in a degree that is hard for us to comprehend. Something comes into her mind that is painful and she tries to find a fact to support the painful feeling. One day it might be her stubbed toe, another day it might be the weight of past memories, and a few minutes later it might be something you said and did, an old grudge she cannot let go.

Waverider, another member here, once compared BPD to an archive of past griefs that builds and builds and builds. Your wife may not have the ability to resolve these griefs like many of us do (finding fault with others precludes emotional resolution and the building of resilience). So, every time she feels bad, the whole history of every bad thing pushes ALL of her feelings with great force.

Impulsivity doesn't help, either, another common core trait of people with BPD.

She probably feels all of those feelings: loves you, misses you, wants to be with you, has to leave. On your part, or anyone who is in a committed BPD relationship, the challenge is to radically accept that this is the state of her emotions as a matter of course. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured, so protecting yourself in order to build back strength is an important part of self care. It will not cure her if you gain emotional health, though it will give you the strength necessary to take her words and behavior less personally.

She sounds very ill and may not be able to go through with the very difficult cognitive challenges of filing for divorce. This is akin to a very angry young child who starts packing a suitcase to run away. Not to say that your wife cannot file for divorce, only that even very high-functioning pwBPD can struggle with some of the divorce tasks even when they are committed to leaving.

You set a boundary and that likely caused an extinction burst of sorts on her part. She may be blaming the boundary for what is essentially her own shame. What may set her at ease is knowing that you are taking care of yourself, that you are strong enough to recover from the injuries she inflicts. Whether you can do that or not is a deeply personal decision about your own values and emotional resilience, and to do so without guilt or judgment about what you are, or are not, willing to tolerate.

[Icanteven]

Something I saw that stood out in one of Livednlearned's comments:  my wife is reaching out hard regarding her course of treatment, so in spite of everything she's still including me in her decision-making process. Unfortunately, it's hell on me because on one hand she needs me to help her make adult decisions, and on the other, making adult decisions makes me controlling, which feeds into her unwillingness to attempt reconciliation. 

By way of example, my wife is involved in intensive therapy that takes up most of her day every day.  One Saturday, she was given a brief respite from therapy and allowed to spend dinner with me.  However, instead of wanting to spend time with me, she wanted to go out and get drunk with her friends.  Since I hadn't shared a meal with her in nearly two weeks, I asked her to have dinner with me instead.  Sulking, pouting, and passive-aggressiveness followed, and though I did get to eat with my wife for once, after she left me she reflected on this incident by declaring my behavior controlling. 

For me, if asking my wife to have dinner with me = controlling, what chance do I have?  Let's leave aside all the mental health issues for a moment; when you're married to someone who considers having dinner with you a chore that takes them away from doing what they REALLY want to do, not to mention being controlling, what does that say?

I guess my point is, I kinda feel like I've got good old fashioned marriage counseling issues on top of all these other mental health crises.  I'm trying my damnedest to be sympathetic and empathetic, but this is a reminder of how exhausting it was to be her caretaker.

[foody]

Hello.

Ive been with my partner for 16 yrs. She has BPD but wont acknowledge it. She puts ot down to depression and anxiety. The whole 'love you hate you i want to leave' is very common to me. A few weeks ago she came in from work in a very emotional state. Crying. Then told me she wants us to separate. Over the week i had ' i care about, i love you i just dont want to be with you' .a few months ago she was talking about us going to rome to get married, growing old together.

Yesterday she came home, ripped into me about me moving out cause she wanted the house. All the usual 'im controlling' stuff came out. She wants to leave not me so last wk i suggested she find somewhere to stay whilst we decide on what to do with the house. She agreed . Now i said that to make her feel guilty so she'd go amd i get the house. I went outfor a few hours, came back and she was lovely, laughing and joking. And this morning. She's going out for the day, possibly theres someone else, i dont know and to be honest i no longer care. Im fed up with being blamed for everything.

Example. Im not allowed to tell her she looks nice wearing something because that implies i want her to wear it so thats controlling. Then she asks me if she looks ok in something. As much as i still love her i just cant carry on like this.

[livednlearned]

it's hell on me because on one hand she needs me to help her make adult decisions, and on the other, making adult decisions makes me controlling, which feeds into her unwillingness to attempt reconciliation.

Some people with BPD experience fear of engulfment in addition to fear of abandonment. The definition of controlling is much different for someone with engulfment issues than what you or I might think of as controlling. Having no real boundaries to help delineate her "self," she is more vulnerable to feeling overwhelmed by the presence of someone else, their needs and wants. She could very easily experience a competent, confident person as someone who is controlling because she is overwhelmed by a sense of certainty. Her natural instinct is to push back hard to establish what may feel to her like a passable boundary. It's less about us and more about protecting what is extremely fragile (boundary) with questionable skills (rage, passive-aggressive behaviors, disappearing, etc.)

For me, if asking my wife to have dinner with me = controlling, what chance do I have?  Let's leave aside all the mental health issues for a moment; when you're married to someone who considers having dinner with you a chore that takes them away from doing what they REALLY want to do, not to mention being controlling, what does that say?

It says she is doing the best she can right now, given who she is. It is exasperating, and tries your patience, and says that you are experiencing real and significant stress. Dealing with mental illness means your marriage will never look the same as one without mental illness.

I guess my point is, I kinda feel like I've got good old fashioned marriage counseling issues on top of all these other mental health crises.  I'm trying my damnedest to be sympathetic and empathetic, but this is a reminder of how exhausting it was to be her caretaker.

How are the marriage counseling issues different than the mental health crises?[/quote]

[Icanteven]

How are the marriage counseling issues different than the mental health crises?

Maybe they're not.  I guess my point is, when you have two people, one of whom gives no effort to the marriage, doesn't that go beyond just mental health?  I feel like I'm role reversed in that movie The Breakup with Anniston/Vaughn:  I want her to want to spend time with me.  I want her to want to do things with me.  For me.  I want to do more than I hear "I love you" fifty times a day and not find myself cleaning up the kitchen alone while she vegges out in front of the television.

No marriage is 50/50, and I would have settled for 90/10 while she heals, but - and I'm not being hyperbolic or histrionic here - we were literally 100/0. Our last fight I looked at her point blank and asked, "when was the last time you can remember doing something sweet for me?"  She couldn't, and worse, she didn't care. 

I had ascribed so much of her self-centered-ness to the illness, but I woke up one morning recently and thought, does that justify her incredible narcissism?  I don't know, but I don't really care what the answer is; I care that she doesn't care about anything going on in my life while expecting me to take care of everything financially, around the house, tending to her emotionally and spiritually, etc, while I get absolutely nothing reciprocally. 

[foody]

No marriage is 50/50, and I would have settled for 90/10 while she heals, but - and I'm not being hyperbolic or histrionic here - we were literally 100/0. Our last fight I looked at her point blank and asked, "when was the last time you can remember doing something sweet for me?"  She couldn't, and worse, she didn't care.  "



God that sounds familiar. Eg i ask my partner for a hug, she says im controlling her cause if she dosent she's a b@#$$/&. Xmas and birthdays are another. She says 'what do you want for xmas?'  I say something sentimental.this causes a massive overload. She has no concept of a sentimental gift for me. An utter lack of empathy as well. When my dad died she looked at me and said o cant help you cause it makes me tgunk of my dad, then talked about how she felt about her dad.

[drummerboy5]

No marriage is 50/50, and I would have settled for 90/10 while she heals, but - and I'm not being hyperbolic or histrionic here - we were literally 100/0. Our last fight I looked at her point blank and asked, "when was the last time you can remember doing something sweet for me?"  She couldn't, and worse, she didn't care.  "



God that sounds familiar. Eg i ask my partner for a hug, she says im controlling her cause if she dosent she's a b@#$$/&. Xmas and birthdays are another. She says 'what do you want for xmas?'  I say something sentimental.this causes a massive overload. She has no concept of a sentimental gift for me. An utter lack of empathy as well. When my dad died she looked at me and said o cant help you cause it makes me tgunk of my dad, then talked about how she felt about her dad.

Before my exBPD/npd and I split I bought her an engagement ring,all xmas presents for her kid and family and her. We split before xmas and she wanted the stuff I bought since I still had it. I spent around $4500 with the ring and gifts. She tried to keep the ring but I got it back... She told me she had presents for me but I couldn't have them since we weren't together . She made out pretty good that xmas. She told me she doesn't remember birth dates and anniversary dates so I can't get mad at her if she doesn't get things for me. She didn't forget, she was to busy draining her bank acct with shopping sprees for herself. I've put money in her acct because she was always overdrawn. She's very selfish!

[an0ught]

Hi Icanteven,

By way of example, my wife is involved in intensive therapy that takes up most of her day every day.  One Saturday, she was given a brief respite from therapy and allowed to spend dinner with me.  However, instead of wanting to spend time with me, she wanted to go out and get drunk with her friends.  Since I hadn't shared a meal with her in nearly two weeks, I asked her to have dinner with me instead.  Sulking, pouting, and passive-aggressiveness followed, and though I did get to eat with my wife for once, after she left me she reflected on this incident by declaring my behavior controlling. 

it seemed vital to you to spend some shared time once in a while with our wife. You insisted on it.

You enforce a boundary and there are consequences you got to accept. Being accused of being controlling was the consequence here. Is this truly so bad being accused by her of this? Is there value in arguing it with her? Do you truly trust her judgment? But no matter how the answers the key to boundary enforcement is acceptance of consequences for yourself. Can you still look in the mirror after being so "horrible" to her? What you want is being liked by her. You can't have that from an upset teen whom you send to bed. You can't have it from her - in that moment. And that perspective is key - unless you step away from instant gratification you will loose. It is really, really, really hard to do that when exhausted (there are somestudies on why poor people are bad at making best long term decisions). You crave a positive turn - now!

[Icanteven]

it seemed vital to you to spend some shared time once in a while with our wife. You insisted on it.

I told her this in no uncertain terms:  you going through this was like processing a death.  The woman I knew and fell in love with no longer exists and, if that weren't bad enough, it's the lesser of evils because she going through something so difficult I can't even imagine.  I miss(ed) her every day and all I want(ed) was to spend quality time with her in what little time she has. 

Honestly, when you put it that way, yeah I can live with being so horrible as to insist that she put time into our marriage, and that she behave as my spouse.  And, it boils down to what I've seen the mods post in so many of these discussions:  whatever behaviors I was guilty of I will acknowledge and modify and go extra hard to treatment and therapy with her to support her. But that's what I control; what is she gonna do?  She tells me she can't be what I need her to be; is this her way of saying it doesn't matter what you do, I'm not willing to change to make this work?  If so, all of this is moot.

[an0ught]

You are right the old she does not exist anymore if it ever did. What will emerge is unknown. This can be scary but it can also be an opportunity to shape things.

What she says matters less than what she does. She is talking to you and feels miserable about herself. Her problem is not that she is not right or that you are not right for the other. When you both have learned to be right for yourself a lot will become simpler.

What she says what she feels that very moment. Her emotions are extreme, all over the place and mostly negative. Her talk is the same and fact will be made fitting. Validating them can take off some edge but working through them will take time, space and patience.

[Icanteven]

You are right the old she does not exist anymore if it ever did. What will emerge is unknown. This can be scary but it can also be an opportunity to shape things.

What she says matters less than what she does. She is talking to you and feels miserable about herself. Her problem is not that she is not right or that you are not right for the other. When you both have learned to be right for yourself a lot will become simpler.

What she says what she feels that very moment. Her emotions are extreme, all over the place and mostly negative. Her talk is the same and fact will be made fitting. Validating them can take off some edge but working through them will take time, space and patience.

Well, going NC will cure the time and space part of the equation.  Not sure I understand your quote "Her problem is not that she is not right or that you are not right for the other."

[an0ught]

She worries being right for you when she struggles being ok with herself. You are also likely too focused on her and not enough on yourself.