Update on my Ex and my Reactions/Questions

[HurtinNW]

Hello all

As many of you know I have a close relationship with my ex's sister. We are both the survivors/thrivers of dysfunctional families and I think for the most part our relationship is pretty healthy. We call each other sisters and are precious to each other.

I've posted before about my confusion around her telling me about ex. Throughout our relationship she was a sounding board. I never felt it was triangulation, but more support and advice. She is not a side taker. One reason I've liked talking to her is she gets it. There are times I see her and we don't talk about ex at all.

Yesterday I spoke with her and we did talk about ex, and she ended updating me on him. I'm having really mixed feelings about what she told me and my reactions.

She told me that ex has virtually isolated himself in his house, is being super melodramatic and maudlin. He doesn't go out much, just sits with his cat in his lap and watches ESPN. She says he has come over to her place twice lately, and he carries some novel he is reading. He has all these sections underlined that he relates to, and she says he wants her to read them, and they are all very maudlin. She described him as "feeling sorry for himself." She said she keeps offering ideas for him and he shoots down every single one. He sits at her house with his head in his hands (he is very theatrical with displays of emotion), sighing, looking sad. He keeps saying he is a failure. She said he has made me the focus of his failure rather than his refusal to look for work or address his own behaviors. Knowing what I know about his financial situation he is probably getting close to running out of all money. Mind you, this is someone who four years ago was a leading arts critic for a major daily paper, earning good money and with tons of friends and influence.

I know this board is about us, and not our exes or partners, so I want to really examine my own reactions to this information. I felt angry, sad, frustrated, relieved, and vindicated. The vindication is that it couldn't all be me, clearly this guy is not functioning well. Honestly, part of me is happy he is floundering, because I know if he was off dancing into the sunset with a new partner I would be hurt in a different way. I am angry he continues to act helpless. I am angry he continues to make himself the tragic victim of the world instead of the glorious person he could be. I am frustrated he won't pull his head out of his butt. I'd like to go over there and kick his fanny. I feel sorry for him and a deep well of compassion that the man I love is in such a mess. I feel a mixture of frustration and concern.

I am also very confused by my own behavior. Why do I elicit this information, why do I listen, why do I care? She pointed out in talking that I still use the present tense, as in he is currently hurting me. Instead of using the past tense, that he is out of my life. She's right. I still feel very present in the hurt and anger. The door is not really closed.

I am asking myself why I don't talk to other friends as much, and not my bonus sister, and the honest answer is other friends will be supportive but also probably not engage as much in what happened and where he is now.

My feelings are all over the place... .one moment angry, the next hurt, the next aching and sad. I am not sure if m learning about how he is doing is a way of easing off, letting go, facing reality, or keeping me enmeshed. And I really don't have enough of a sense of myself yet to figure out how to know that. In one sense it is a relief. He may be giving me the silent treatment but at least I know where he is and how he is doing. In another way I worry I am keeping myself emotionally engaged.

How do you figure that stuff out? The relationship was so crazy making I don't even know my own motives sometimes.

[doubleAries]

HurtinNW-- :'(

It sucks, doesn't it?

Yes, you have contradictory feelings--that's what being human is about. We get hard on ourselves--and confused--about contradictory feelings, and seem to believe something must be wrong with us or everything would be streamlined and make logical sense at all times. But it doesn't. Give yourself permission to have complex and even contradicting feelings. It wasn't a simple relationship, and the emotions surrounding it won't be simplistic either. Trying to sort out which feelings are the "real" ones and which ones aren't only represses some of them--and they are ALL real, and worthy of being experienced and acknowledged. I find that when I can remember this and allow myself to accept all of my feelings (that don't mesh nicely together in a rational way), and just let them flow, my anxiety is vastly reduced. Takes practice though. I don't always remember. It's a new way of doing things for me. Maybe for you too.

Aspects of dysfunction are also addicting. Why, I don't know. But it's true. Especially the rescuer stuff. Rescuing temporarily eases our anxiety.

Kudos to you for feeling sympathy for him, but not rushing over to rescue him.

Letting go isn't always just a simple decision and BOOM it's done. And even when it is, sometimes we grab back hold again. And again. And again. And let go again. And again. And again.

[vortex of confusion]

My feelings are all over the place... .one moment angry, the next hurt, the next aching and sad. I am not sure if m learning about how he is doing is a way of easing off, letting go, facing reality, or keeping me enmeshed. And I really don't have enough of a sense of myself yet to figure out how to know that. In one sense it is a relief. He may be giving me the silent treatment but at least I know where he is and how he is doing. In another way I worry I am keeping myself emotionally engaged.

How do you figure that stuff out? The relationship was so crazy making I don't even know my own motives sometimes.

I am so glad you posted this! I am so done with ex that I am burnt to a crisp. I am beyond done.

Yet, I am going through the same range of illogical emotions. I am not making any sense to myself whatsoever and feel as if I am completely contradicting myself.

I don't know how to figure this stuff out. This is such a timely thread for me as I engaged stbx in conversation and confronted him about a bunch of stuff that is no longer relevant. I had a good friend call me to task and ask me what my motives were. I tried to make up a bunch of stuff. I don't friggin' know what my motives were. I want to hurt him as much as he hurt me while at the same time hoping that he pulls his head out of his butt.

After he rubbed my nose in the fact that he reconnected with a girl from college and had a great connection with her and how she was so special, I sent her a message and struck up a conversation with her about stbx. After I did it, I felt so friggin' guilty. I also felt super friggin' self satisfied to find out that she had cut things off with him. She had no idea that he was doing what he was doing. I want to sabatoge him and see him succeed all at the same time.

Maybe I can gain some insights from your thread. I wanted to share my tidbits to at least let you know that you are so not alone in feeling like this.

[Herodias]

"Yet, I am going through the same range of illogical emotions. I am not making any sense to myself whatsoever and feel as if I am completely contradicting myself. "

I am right there with you! Sad, angry, angry at myself for being sad... .hopes he gets better, but wanting to know he is still the same. I just want to be over it all! I wonder if they feel this stuff at all? It's like they rubbed off all of their problems on us. It's not a good feeling.

[HurtinNW]

Whew, thank you, all! I've been castigating myself (note to self: therapist says to practice self-compassion!). It helps to hear this is not just me.

Honestly, I have my own abandonment issues, and I think it does relieve some anxiety to just know how he is doing. This is someone I loved deeply, passionately. I don't want to just pretend there was nothing. One difference I did note this time: I didn't want to run over and rescue him. I idly thought about what it would be like to do the same-old, which at this point in the dysfunctional dance would involve us getting together for a drink or dinner. I'd ream him out (or feel I was doing so by speaking my piece) and at this particular moment in his cycle he would act apologetic, say he was a failure, and we'd back in the laundry cycle of hell. Within two weeks, I can promise, he'd be raging at me again.

I knew immediately I didn't want to save him, because it never works. I thought he is more collapsed than ever, and I imagined him saying something I think he has tried to say to me in various ways and I was the one who wasn't listening: he can't do this. He.Cannot.Do.This.

That makes me cry.

Why? Why can't this brilliant, sensitive, beautiful person confront his behaviors and lead a meaningful, loving life? Why can't he pull his damn fat head out of his self-pitying butt? Sorry to get so picturesque about it. But I am seeing how much I have been the one who engaged in denial. By refusing to slow down and see him for what he is I have refused to let him voice to me, in the ways he can, that he cannot be in relationship with me. He can't even look for a job. He sabotaged the last one he had. He's never had a real relationship. What he is doing right now is the culmination of years of behavior.

I can't blame him entirely, either. In the last few recycles he tried to verbalize his doubts that he could have a relationship. I didn't listen. I didn't want to hear it. I wanted to be the "positive" one.

My own motives... .that's a good question. Right now, interestingly, I'd like to punish him. I feel like he betrayed me. It's a lot like the feeling I had about my mother when the cold water dash came that she was never, ever going to love me.

Maybe I was the one idealizing and denying all along. On the other hand, as his sister pointed out, when we met he wasn't displaying most these symptoms. He told me later he was "high" on me. I came at a good time, and injected him with a sense of identity, but in the end he was still empty and self-loathing and sabotaging. Now he is hiding like a troll in his place and I do feel anger. I feel like he shouldn't get to do this. He shouldn't get to give up. Nobody gets to give up. Giving up is like throwing a knife backwards as you leave the room. It hurts people.

[patientandclear]

I don't see how you could NOT have those reactions. It is very hard to be at peace with these outcomes--it just does not feel right. There is no sense in which this is how it was "supposed" to go, right? And there is a feeling of waste and pointless suffering, his and yours.

That said, your point about "he cannot do this" is so important. My ex too said in our last meaningful conversation about what should happen with us, "I am dangerous in that regard." He explained he would inevitably hurt me. He knew that but he does not know how to stop it. They are not necessarily wrong that this is beyond what they will be able to fix. It is hard for us to change how we cope and process hurt and fear, and we're not dealing with cognitive distortions.

At one point it helped me to just welcome the sadness. It was supposed to be here, you know?

I also think it's completely understandable that you are talking to the sister about him--not to say that at some point you may not want to shift that pattern. I think we investigate what is going on until we are sure. This is all hard to believe at a deep level. When we seek this information about their current state we are looking for confirmation that difficult things we thought were true, are in fact true, or that we were wrong ... .Trying to make sure of the path. I found it essential to be as sure as I could be, and then at some point, I needed to stop acquiring the information because I knew already and it needed to no longer be relevant to my daily life, what and how he was doing. I think you'll know when you reach that point.

 

[eeks]

Hi HurtinNW,

My own motives... .that's a good question. Right now, interestingly, I'd like to punish him. I feel like he betrayed me. It's a lot like the feeling I had about my mother when the cold water dash came that she was never, ever going to love me.

I am not sure if this is exactly similar, but I remember for a brief period of time fantasizing about revenge on uBPD ex (using information I had about him, against him).  I eventually realized how pathetic he looked in these fantasies and said "wait a minute, this is not what I want" but I'm glad I fully allowed the fantasies because I had the insight afterwards that I felt powerless, and revenge would be a way to try to get power.

So, bearing in mind that "he cannot do this", can you think of other ways you might reclaim some power?

(grieving comes to my mind, but I want to leave this open for you)

eeks

[doubleAries]

couple of things struck me here... .

I idly thought about what it would be like to do the same-old, which at this point in the dysfunctional dance would involve us getting together for a drink or dinner. I'd ream him out (or feel I was doing so by speaking my piece) and at this particular moment in his cycle he would act apologetic, say he was a failure, and we'd back in the laundry cycle of hell. Within two weeks, I can promise, he'd be raging at me again.



My own motives... .that's a good question. Right now, interestingly, I'd like to punish him. I feel like he betrayed me.

I want to gently point this out to you--and of course since I'm not gentle on myself, harshly point this familiar thing out to myself. This is a familiar pattern to me too.

Let's see--I want to get together for dinner with my ex and ream him out and punish him. I just can't understand why he doesn't like this! Especially since I am soo justified! And then within a couple of weeks, he's raging at me again! HOW DARE HE? I am the one justified! Not him! It's OK for me to rage, er I mean ream and punish him, but certainly not OK for him to do this to me!

Just sayin'... .

[HurtinNW]

Hi HurtinNW,

My own motives... .that's a good question. Right now, interestingly, I'd like to punish him. I feel like he betrayed me. It's a lot like the feeling I had about my mother when the cold water dash came that she was never, ever going to love me.

I am not sure if this is exactly similar, but I remember for a brief period of time fantasizing about revenge on uBPD ex (using information I had about him, against him).  I eventually realized how pathetic he looked in these fantasies and said "wait a minute, this is not what I want" but I'm glad I fully allowed the fantasies because I had the insight afterwards that I felt powerless, and revenge would be a way to try to get power.

So, bearing in mind that "he cannot do this", can you think of other ways you might reclaim some power?

(grieving comes to my mind, but I want to leave this open for you)

eeks

That's interesting because my therapist has been encouraging me to engage in revenge fantasies. Part of my homework was to think of revenge fantasies.

I have a hard time staying in that place. I think part of the reason quite frankly is if I hurt him the chance of him ever loving me would be permanently lost. Not wanting revenge is a way of keeping the door open. Thinking of revenge means rejecting him.

Yes, I do feel disempowered. I feel emotionally that he stole my sense of self, sense of safety, and left me deeply wounded.

I want to grieve, I don't even know if I am, if this is part of the grieving process.

[HurtinNW]

couple of things struck me here... .

I idly thought about what it would be like to do the same-old, which at this point in the dysfunctional dance would involve us getting together for a drink or dinner. I'd ream him out (or feel I was doing so by speaking my piece) and at this particular moment in his cycle he would act apologetic, say he was a failure, and we'd back in the laundry cycle of hell. Within two weeks, I can promise, he'd be raging at me again.



My own motives... .that's a good question. Right now, interestingly, I'd like to punish him. I feel like he betrayed me.

I want to gently point this out to you--and of course since I'm not gentle on myself, harshly point this familiar thing out to myself. This is a familiar pattern to me too.

Let's see--I want to get together for dinner with my ex and ream him out and punish him. I just can't understand why he doesn't like this! Especially since I am soo justified! And then within a couple of weeks, he's raging at me again! HOW DARE HE? I am the one justified! Not him! It's OK for me to rage, er I mean ream and punish him, but certainly not OK for him to do this to me!

Just sayin'... .

Oh, totally! My anger at him is justified. His anger at me is not. Or is it?

We certainly engaged in a very destructive pattern. It's hard for me to sort it out, because there were times I felt I was reaming him out, but then I would step back and wonder why I felt that for stating my feelings. Other times I knew I was using a lot of "you" language, as in "you did this" and "you did that." I get so confused on this stuff. He was horribly abusive, and then when we would reconcile, I would want to confront him about it. I wanted him to feel sorry, to change. So I would confront him, and he would act apologetic, and before I knew it, he'd be raging at me again.

Most of the time I could not state my feelings at all without him taking them as an accusation. If I said I was sad it was an accusation he was a bad person. If I sad I was hurt it was an accusation he was a bad person. Even if I said I was happy it was an accusation, because then he felt it was an accusation he was not and again, a bad person. I could not safely speak for myself, and efforts to remedy issues ended up backfiring into awful rages.

It was those rare times on the abuse cycle that he seemed remorseful that I felt I could finally speak my feelings and truth. Now I see he wasn't remorseful, he was in collapse, and feeling massively sorry for himself. My speaking my truth and confronting him with it didn't lead to any growth, it just added to his shame, which he stored and exploded in more rage.

Once he told me that I was angry too and just didn't admit it. That is true. I ended up quite angry at how he treated me. I have such a hard time staying in the anger, I am just all over the place anymore.

I think in my relationship I ended up taking on the burden of *all* the feelings, and he ended up rejecting responsibility for any of them, besides his own self-pity. I know that sounds harsh, but I do think it is true. Look at me, feeling bad for him, feeling sad and achy and questioning myself, and he is not feeling bad for me. He is only feeling bad for himself.

[doubleAries]

are you sure our ex's aren't the same person?

Actually my ex was less likely to rage. He was more likely to wait until an opportune time came along and then zing me.

And I don't know about you, but I have to remind myself all the time--just because I'm seeing my own part in the dysfunction, doesn't mean everything was my fault and I should run back and rescue myself and/or him again. We all want to see ourselves as the offended party, the functional one who was at someone else's mercy. You, me, my ex, your ex, my neighbor---all of us. And that is NOT to say there isn't actual abuse. My ex would punch me and challenge me to step outside to have fistfights. He threw me out of a moving car once. Those things are definitely abuse.

But the communication breakdowns--those might be more equally distributed.

Here is a "communication formula" my counselor gave me yesterday that is already making a big impact on at least how I am seeing things--retroactively as well as for the future (just thinking right now, haven't yet had opportunity to actually use it). Try doing it BEFORE speaking.

(1) what happened?

(2) what did that make me think?

(2) how did those thoughts make me feel?

(4) what is my goal?

I am quite dismayed to use this in my mind for past communication blow ups and see just how screwed up my own role was. How often I didn't examine my thoughts about what happened and immediately assumed my thoughts were actually external truths (which, if true, certainly would have justified my outrage at how I was being treated).

The relationship with my ex is way too long of a time of dysfunction to repair (and I don't think he can do his part--he has serious major mental illness problems that make him very rigid. The pattern is already set) but I think this will be a really powerful tool for me moving forward in my life. When counselor and I first discussed it, I thought "yeah, OK... .another silly little tool that might help a miniscule amount, what the heck, every little bit helps". But when I applied this to already past communications--ones I am still carrying around, furious about--I broke down into tears. I wasn't just a victim--I was a participant. Big time. I have to own that. Or nothing will change, just the players.

[doubleAries]

rather than re-state the whole thing, here is the link to another post I made on the PI board, utilizing this exercise in an example from the past, which clearly shows my own snarled up communication problem

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=293605.0

[HurtinNW]

DoubleAries, thanks. I read your pager example and I think there is a lot I can learn from this.

I saw my therapist today and had a good cry. She is helping me process the old wounds as well as this one. She kept saying I need to stop taking on his blame. At one point I was talking about how angry I was, and how he doesn't get to do this, and went went further down into that, and my hope. That's the window I keep open.

The image I got was me as a little child, hoping my mother would come home. Not just come home from drinking and prostituting, but come home emotionally to me. Come home to love me and keep me safe. But my mother never came home. She left me, if not physically, then emotionally, and without safety or love or help from her pedophile boyfriends. Not only did she not come home, she made sure I believed it was my fault.

Part of me is that child, sitting by the door, hoping my ex will come home. My therapist said, "He is not coming home." I got SO angry at her. How dare he do this to me! How dare he leave me and not care!

She told me point blank not to wait for him because he is not coming home. I was just crushed by that but also felt oddly hopeful. She keeps telling me that this is about him and not me. I struggle with that because I feel it is at least part about me. But she keeps saying no, it is not. She kept saying he is punishing me and asking me why I think that is happening. She said examining my role is good but I am letting that take the focus off the fact he is cruel and abusive. She kept turning the focus back to that.

She made a comment about how if you are a person with no sense of self, and you meet someone who is very much a self, and successful at it, you have two choices: you can be consumed by them or you can hate them for it. For the non-self person it is very frightening to be consumed, and so they make the self person the target of their rage. He wanted me to reflect upon him, but instead it was like a high powered glare showing his flaws. So the claws came out.

I really like this counselor. It is AEDP therapy and feels incredibly healing. She is also adamant that I will meet someone who thinks I am the cat's meow.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh, totally! My anger at him is justified. His anger at me is not. Or is it?

Anger is an emotion. A feeling. It exists... .for a while... .then goes away. You may be able to find a reason for it, but the word "justified" simply doesn't apply. No feeling is either justified OR unjustified. The just exist as feelings. That applies equally to you and to your ex.

Your ex was angry, and took ACTIONS when he was angry that were completely unjustified, harmful, and are much of the reason he is your ex.

You didn't take the same kind of ACTIONS driven by your anger. Perhaps you did say something you now regret. More likely you did very little if any of that.

That's interesting because my therapist has been encouraging me to engage in revenge fantasies. Part of my homework was to think of revenge fantasies.

Yup... .there is HUGE difference between fantasizing about it and actually doing it. Note: Thinking about killing somebody isn't a crime in any jurisdiction that I'm aware of! There may be a few religions that try to prohibit that, but I'm even drawing a blank on that right now.

From what you've said before, you are in the habit of talking yourself out of feelings like anger... .so doing something to keep yourself there for a bit sounds like good practice.