Anyone not sure what they are dealing with entirely?

[Herodias]

I realize this site is for people dealing with people with BPD. I also realize they tend to border on other personality disorders... .hence being Borderline.  I am wondering if sometimes we have conflicting thoughts on here because while we have sympathy for the borderline... .we don't for the narcissist/anti-social personality. I also think some us are diagnosing people instead of a therapist, just looking for help. I just want to point this out, because as mine was diagnosed with a personality disorder, they didn't specify. I think I have been trying to figure it out for the past two years. Trying to understand what I went through. I have a feeling his parents know and just are too embarrassed to tell... .even to me!  Maybe they don't want to accept it either. I believe his Mother knows and that is why she told me she didn't know what he was capable of.  Who would want to admit your child has a problem like that? I think we are the closest people to them... .partners and parents. I don't even think a therapist can always know except to go by the books. Mine was never honest with therapists anyway. I thought mine was a pwBPD this whole time because he is a cutter. This is not a narcissistic trait. He has all of the others of BPD. Except I am not sure about the emotions. His parents read the walking on eggshells book and said they did not think that is what he is. The domestic violence people told me they thought he was anti-social... .I didn't want to believe it. I thought he really cared and had emotions.  I am seeing he only has emotions about himself... .not for others. I am really wondering about my wanting him to be a feeling person, but the more I am away and see his behaviors, I am seeing it may be true. Narcissists don't self harm I hear either , but anti-social people will. I feel like I have gotten allot of support here for me though and I really appreciate it. I just wanted to point that out, because I think other people are doing the same. I think we need to be careful, because this is a site for BPD and some us aren't dealing with that entirely... .I think that may be why some of us see them as more manipulating and game playing than others... .does this make sense? Any one not sure what they are dealing with entirely? I also realize there are more female pwBPD than male which is interesting as well. I can see now why doctors are starting to lump them together on a cluster B and an anti-social category. I thinks its confusing.

[C.Stein]

Blue,

The label is not important.  What is important is the behavior and the impact on you and others that are close to them.

The label only serves to categorize people and put them into treatment boxes, something which is rather distasteful to me personally.

The thing with BPD is there is no box that can contain it.  Being a spectrum disorder and the good chance of comorbidity makes BPD difficult at best to truly grasp, let alone effectively categorize and box it up.   Obviously there are enough commonalities for it to receive "official" recognition, but I still see the disorder as being too highly variable and needs to be approached on a case by case basis.  This means that blanket assumptions do not work with borderlines and it is important for all of us to realize this.

Yes it is confusing and I agree there is a tendency towards armchair psychiatry here in an attempt to define and make sense of what has/is happening to you.  This is why I encourage people to think less of the label and think more of the behavior/actions and how they have/are impacting you personally.

[balletomane]

I realize this site is for people dealing with people with BPD. I also realize they tend to border on other personality disorders... .hence being Borderline.

This is not accurate. The term 'borderline' was used historically because of a belief that people with BPD were on the border between psychosis and neurosis, a belief that is as outdated as the idea that leeches can be used to cure fevers. This is why many professionals nowadays are calling it Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD) or favour rewording it entirely as complex PTSD.

But I see the point you're making. As a mental health professional, I am sometimes concerned by the quality of information on BPD that's disseminated in good faith by members, and the way that sometimes people try to diagnose significant figures in their lives based on Internet information (which can be sketchy at best). The one thing that we all have in common here is that we have been hurt and damaged by a relationship with an emotionally volatile person. The support need is absolutely genuine and without doubt, even though we may not know the precise nature of our partner's problems. I think this is why it's important to focus on helping each other in a way that emphasizes our individual needs ("You sound as though you're struggling with shame, so it might help to do XYZ", as opposed to making posts that generalize about BPD and makes broad claims about the people who have it ("BPDs love making you feel ashamed, which is hard for us nons - you just have to remember that they're all like this and it isn't your fault".

[gotbushels]

Hi Heron:)

Interesting post.

If you find yourself dwelling on this (I'm taking a guess here, your post seems like it's been on your mind for a while), I don't think it would suit you to dwell on a label.

I'm sorry that it's somewhat disconcerting with the uncertainty of not having a diagnosis.

My ex was diagnosed with "something" too by a P. I too, will never "know" in the sense that I didn't have the "luxury" of having a slip of paper with "BPD" written on it. If the tools work to your expectations, for your situation, wouldn't you be better off with this resource?

You might note that he's out of your life, so I don't think dwelling is going to help you. Prepare yourself for what matters, that's your life.

If you were in a relationship with a BP, or handling a pwBPD, or handling someone that exhibits BPD traits, then the tools on the site and the resources should help you. If you don't think it will work, then do the work and see if it checks out to satisfy your uncertainty.

That aside, there's three things in your post I want to bring up.

His parents read the walking on eggshells book and said they did not think that is what he is.

BPD symptoms tend to show up within specific relationship types. So the parents may not see it in the way it manifests itself to you.

His parents read the walking on eggshells book

Why?

I also realize there are more female pwBPD than male which is interesting as well. I can see now why doctors are starting to lump them together on a cluster B and an anti-social category. I thinks its confusing.

As far as I know, today, there isn't evidence to suggest BPD occurs more in women than men. The previous suggestion that it was more prevalent in women is no longer readily accepted.

Notably, this all adds to the uncertainty which highlights that in the end, it's really up to you to decide how you want to proceed.

[steelwork]

This is a thorny topic. We're told variously, in different contexts on this site, that it does matter what the diagnosis or possible diagnosis of the (ex) partner is, and that it doesn't matter. As others wisely point out, it's important to know how the behaviors are affecting you--and, especially as your detachment progresses, your gaze will turn to your own reasons for engaging with the problematic behaviors of your ex.

On the other hand, the behaviors and relationship dysfunctions that bring us here are themselves often ambiguous. Oft-quoted paragraph from one of the basic articles on the site (Is It BPD?):

Does it Really Matter It does. The behaviors exhibited during a relationship for all of these afflictions can look somewhat alike but the driving forces and the implications can be very different. For example, was that lying predatory (as in ASPD), ego driven (as in NPD), defensive (as in BPD), a result of being out of control (as in alcoholism), or social ineptitude (as in Aspergers). Was it situational, episodic (bipolar), or has it been chronic. Yes, all lying is bad, but the ways to handle it and the prognosis is not the same in all situations.


Because of this ^^^, as BH points out, people sometimes talk at cross-purposes and offer unhelpful advice from their personal experience. ("These people just want to manipulate you" type comments.) If we were all dealing with pwAPD, that might be useful in helping us interpret our own experiences, but it's confusing and needlessly hurtful for some of us.

I guess the upshot is that we all benefit from accurate information, and we all need to put the emphasis on our own recovery.

Now, there are some members here who believe or have come to believe that their exes don't fit the BPD framework so well. But we were all brought here with similar experiences. You could say we are all disentangling ourselves from trauma bonds. Maybe there's a site like this for people recovering from relationships with pwASP or pwNPD, etc, but I don't know of them. And it's clear that members like BH have an important place here, and I for one want them here. I think it's incumbent upon each of us to educate ourselves and keep in mind what is known about BPD before we offer others advice based on our own experience.

[steelwork]

Oh--I wanted to add another thought. "oes it matter?" It does, to me, because an important part of my recovery is compassion. I personally really need it to process the relationship and put it in my past. I felt a deep bond with D. Our relationship had meaning to me. I am not able to just drop that off at the dumpster and keep going. A lot of the anger I felt (and still do) was about feeling used by him. By staying in touch with my compassion for him, I have found I can soothe that hurt and anger. If, even for a while, I provided succor to a wounded soul, it wasn't in vain. For me, love persists and changes. I still love him, and I don't regret having showed him love. Something like that. It's just how I handle things, I guess

[HurtinNW]

I think my ex is far more on the NPD side than BPD, but as noted, I haven't found anything like this for dealing with NPD. So I am here, and still untangling just what happened. For me, understanding the behaviors and their roots does help.

As steelwork says, understanding the why can help us frame our response. My observation is the tools may work differently on people who appear primarily BPD than they do on someone like my ex. My ex doesn't have many of the traits of BPD. He doesn't cut, he doesn't self-harm, he doesn't appear afraid of abandonment. He fits the description of NPD to a tee, including entitlement, lack of conscience and remorse, and veering between narcissistic rage and narcissistic self-pity and collapse. Understanding that is helping me get why some of the tools didn't seem to work with him.

I am trying to remember the poster who believes all these personality spectrum disorders are, in fact, "accountability disorders." We are dealing with people who cannot own their behaviors, for varying reasons.

I realize that many see BPD as more sympathetic than NPD but I believe we can have compassion for anyone. Certainly my ex is in a miserable place and is a deeply unhappy person. I also can't ignore my feelings and compassion for him, even though he treated me terribly.

[steelwork]

I realize that many see BPD as more sympathetic than NPD but I believe we can have compassion for anyone. Certainly my ex is in a miserable place and is a deeply unhappy person. I also can't ignore my feelings and compassion for him, even though he treated me terribly.

Thanks for making this point. I totally agree. My mother, who is the other great heartbreak of the last few years (the bigger one, really), is pretty much for sure a pwNPD. I feel the need for a lot of compassion in processing that r/s, too. In either case, I feel like I need some kind of understanding of their inner worlds to connect with them compassionately. In broad strokes, the NPD inner world is different than the BPD inner world, but they are both wounded souls.

[Frank88]

Steelwork: I like how you broke out the diagnoses into predatory (ASPD), ego driven (NPD), defensive (BPD), and out of control (alcoholism).  I can't help but think of a Venn Diagram where sets overlap to form almost new sets.  In my own experience, I wish I did have a set diagnoses of just one of these, but they all seemed to overlap some in my ex.  There were days when I thought it was predatory, and others when it was defensive.  When predatory, I went on guard and into protective mode.  When defensive like BPD, I became sympathetic.  When alcoholic, well, I don't even know how I reacted.  The whole thing still remains confusing.  Someone in the thread used the term "emotionally volatile."  I guess that's what we are all dealing with, regardless if there is one set diagnosis.

[khibomsis]

For me, this is a mutual support site of recovering co-dependents (cue thousands of people going I'M NOT CO-DEPENDENT )  and that works for me. In fact next best thing to paradise must surely be a bunch of co's caring for each other 

What I mean is, at the end of the day BPD is just a narrative. I finally understood my uNBPD mother the way many people did, through a diagnosis from my therapist after a number of sessions talking about my childhood. Looked up this site and the behaviour started to made sense. It was a narrative into which I could fit my life's story and begin to heal. When I was a child BPD wasn't even a diagnosis. Many therapists still don't like to use it. But unBPD mom is what she is.

I understand the need to try and make sense of motivations. Two of the most asked questions on this site are 1. did he/she/they really love me at all? and 2. were they really as manipulative as they seemed, or was it the mental disease? But from the point of view of our healing, how important is that really? When I began my journey to healing I was suicidally depressed, anxious, PTSD, enmeshed, overwhelmed boundary-less, low self-esteem (or more correctly retarded ego development) and I needed to be needed because I did not think I was worthy of love unless I was doing things for people. And for me all this was normal. I knew no other state of being. I am more shocked now because the saner I get the more perspective I have on my former loopiness. It is horrifying. So truthfully? All of this going on doesn't leave me with much emotional energy to worry about what motivated the cluster B SO's in my life. If the BPD narrative can help me predict some behaviours or avoid certain patterns in order to protect myself while I heal, it's all good.  , khib

[WoundedBibi]

I realize this site is for people dealing with people with BPD. I also realize they tend to border on other personality disorders... .hence being Borderline.  I am wondering if sometimes we have conflicting thoughts on here because while we have sympathy for the borderline... .we don't for the narcissist/anti-social personality. I also think some us are diagnosing people instead of a therapist, just looking for help. I just want to point this out, because as mine was diagnosed with a personality disorder, they didn't specify. I think I have been trying to figure it out for the past two years. Trying to understand what I went through. I have a feeling his parents know and just are too embarrassed to tell... .even to me!  Maybe they don't want to accept it either. I believe his Mother knows and that is why she told me she didn't know what he was capable of.  Who would want to admit your child has a problem like that? I think we are the closest people to them... .partners and parents. I don't even think a therapist can always know except to go by the books. Mine was never honest with therapists anyway. I thought mine was a pwBPD this whole time because he is a cutter. This is not a narcissistic trait. He has all of the others of BPD. Except I am not sure about the emotions. His parents read the walking on eggshells book and said they did not think that is what he is. The domestic violence people told me they thought he was anti-social... .I didn't want to believe it. I thought he really cared and had emotions.  I am seeing he only has emotions about himself... .not for others. I am really wondering about my wanting him to be a feeling person, but the more I am away and see his behaviors, I am seeing it may be true. Narcissists don't self harm I hear either , but anti-social people will. I feel like I have gotten allot of support here for me though and I really appreciate it. I just wanted to point that out, because I think other people are doing the same. I think we need to be careful, because this is a site for BPD and some us aren't dealing with that entirely... .I think that may be why some of us see them as more manipulating and game playing than others... .does this make sense? Any one not sure what they are dealing with entirely? I also realize there are more female pwBPD than male which is interesting as well. I can see now why doctors are starting to lump them together on a cluster B and an anti-social category. I thinks its confusing.

BH, I want to respond as I feel your thread might have partially started after yesterday's responses to Bigmd's thread, including my reaction.

My ex is not a 'standard' pwBPD either. First of all he is not diagnosed. Besides that he doesn't cut, threaten with suicide, cry, beg for another chance, cling, or any of those things. He is more of a waif type but also has NPD traits. He has OCD without realizing he does. He is very depressed. He is a high functioning alcoholic. He is many things. There aren't other sites like this for his other components. Besides, I don't see myself switching back and forth between sites anyway. I wouldn't want to either; having to analyse if he his behaviour at a certain moment was a BPD thing, an NPD thing or 'just' an alcoholic thing... way too tiring.

For me it doesn't make much difference anymore if his behaviour in a certain moment was caused by either one or the other. In some moments he was defensive in other moments he might still have been defensive but he enjoyed hurting me. A lot. He tried to isolate me on purpose. He tried to hurt me. On purpose. But whether it was his BPD or his NPD kicking in he is still a damaged human being. He still has not asked to have a mental illness. Or this kaleidoscope of illnesses. He is still miserable on the inside. For that I have compassion even though I hate what he has done to me. I will avoid him if I have any choice as I consider him dangerous for my wellbeing. But he is human and not the devil.

My focus is not on him anymore. Or his behaviour. I will look at it on occasion. But my focus is on me now. Why did I enter this relationship? Why did I choose to ignore the red flags? What does that say about me and what I long for? What did I do or say to stay in the relationship that I shouldn't have? What did I do or say that contributed to the demise of the relationship? What do I want to with my life now without him in it?

That is where I can grow and learn. That is where I can prevent from this ever happening again because I will know what it is that I wanted so much that I chose to ignore my gut instinct this man was bad news. And it goes beyond him. I can learn about my friendships. Why I am there more for my friends when they are in need then vice versa. I can learn about why I invest too much of myself in my career and forget to live.

What annoyed me about the reactions to member 2010 was the assumptions that we should all rally around someone (in this case Bigmd) to say "yeah! You are right!" and point fingers at the pwBPD (or whatever PD) instead of asking tough questions. Because healing is not just done by having people tell you you are right all the time. It's the same as with friendships; true friends will tell you what you need to hear not just what you want to hear.

And 2010 said something Bigmd didn't want to hear but IMHO needed to hear: to stop looking at what the ex was doing and to start looking at what he was doing. Focus on himself so he could truly detach.

Some of our exes did play games. But they are exes. Past. And we are here to detach and to heal and to grow. So in the end, and this takes time, it doesn't matter all that much if they did and what they did. It matters what we did and we do now. The way is forward.

If we keep being stuck in "yeah! Burn the witch!" we are not going forward. I'm not saying not to vent, because we all need it and lord knows I will do it too in days to come. But we together create our own group dynamic too. Which means sometimes we offer each other a shoulder, sometimes advice, sometimes "I know what you mean" but also we need to be able to ask each other tough questions or give a kick up the butt. Because without those we will remain stuck. And the atmosphere of indignation almost that member 2010 had the audacity to ask tough questions and didn't cuddle Bigmd in his replies that really upset me. I had (I'm a visual person  ) an image of a mob with pitchforks for a split second.

I would say all of us had a hard time with our exes and the fact they weren't very truthful very often. Therefore the truth should matter to us a LOT. That includes the truth about ourselves. And sometimes someone needs to hold up a mirror for us so we can see. That might hurt but it is necessary to grow. And IMHO holding up a mirror for each other is one of the functions of this board.

Hope I didn't steal your thread  

[C.Stein]

We all seek some type of understanding and putting a label on our ex can help, but there are two things we must keep in mind.

The vast majority of our ex's are undiagnosed and the vast majority of us non's are unqualified to diagnose.

This leaves us with gathering as much information as possible and try to make sense of the insensible.  We can draw parallels, make inferences, assumptions, speculate ... .but without a formal diagnosis that is as far as we can take it.   When applying the label it is important to keep this in mind.   Also keep in mind we all have varying degrees of PD traits.  The difference here is when do we call it a disorder or not?

All that said, I believe my ex suffers from BPD ... .but I have to keep in mind this belief comes with a serious caveat ... .she has not been formally diagnosed and I am not qualified to diagnose her.   Granted, having been in a relationship with her I saw all the behavior that aligns with BPD first hand, along with just about all the other PDs, but I also saw a lot of behavior that doesn't.   I try to keep this in mind when I am seeking to understand what the hell happened and why she did the things she did.   Even if she were diagnosed I still am not privy to her personal thoughts, no one is except her.  I don't know what she was thinking and I never will.  This is something I just have to accept.

At the end of the day it was her behavior, her actions and choices that destroyed me, the reasons why she did the things she did are unimportant and don't erase the pain.  I do however see the value in labeling if that helps you heal as long as we keep in mind the above.

[sweet tooth]

"A rose by any other name smells just as sweet."

-Shakespeare

[balletomane]

I try to keep this in mind when I am seeking to understand what the hell happened and why she did the things she did.   Even if she were diagnosed I still am not privy to her personal thoughts, no one is except her.  I don't know what she was thinking and I never will.  This is something I just have to accept.

At the end of the day it was her behavior, her actions and choices that destroyed me, the reasons why she did the things she did are unimportant and don't erase the pain.  I do however see the value in labeling if that helps you heal as long as we keep in mind the above.

This. My ex was formally diagnosed with BPD, and I still don't know what he was thinking and why he acted the way he did. Accepting that - which means relinquishing control over that - has been very hard, because often I feel that I will only stop hurting if I can understand what happened 100%. I have to learn that sometimes in life you don't get that clarity, but you have to go on and be happy anyway.

In my case, his gaslighting of me was so effective that I began to wonder if I'd imagined the conversations about his diagnosis, and I squirrelled around in my Facebook chat history until I found a message in which he'd mentioned it (dated November 2012). I think part of my quest to know as much as possible and to be certain about things is driven by just how unsure of myself he made me feel. But one thing is clear, I'm not going to grow in self-confidence by constantly trying to explain and analyse the behaviour of the person who made me feel that way. That's like revisiting quicksand to learn how to get out of quicksand. Information about BPD can help a lot, but there is a difference between informing ourselves and obsessing over things that will always be outside our understanding and control.

[Herodias]

"A rose by any other name smells just as sweet."

-Shakespeare

       Yes!

Thanks all... .and yes, I was thinking about Bigmd's thread. I do not want to disrespect anyone with BPD with my anger at my ex... .especially if it turns out he is a sociopath. (Which I am leaning towards)... .But mine is clingy... .not sure what that is all about... .I think you are right, it's important we stop focusing on them and their behavior (even though it is maddening to have dealt with) and focus on us and how we are coping. It's just hard when you really want to understand what the heck we were dealing with. I guess for me I am torn between feeling sorry for him and feeling like he was a big con artist that used me. After just having left my lawyers office, I believe I have to just focus on me. He is making so many mistakes now and he is making things worse for both of us... .What's new? : (

[once removed]

one distinction is how much importance, or the particular importance, that we place on the label. the label can be a crutch or a tool. it can drive obsession, or be used to absolve us of any responsibility, or it can inform our grieving process, help us depersonalize behavior, and detach.

I think that may be why some of us see them as more manipulating and game playing than others... .does this make sense?

sure. and some members alternate between "my ex is seriously crazy" and "my ex is an evil genius mastermind capable of anything". sometimes we see manipulation and game playing where there isnt any, and its either wishful thinking (my ex is trying to recycle me) or a mentality where if the ex breathes, we view it as persecution and try to find the meaning behind it. if a game is indeed being played, we dont have to play. self awareness is a catalyst for healing. as was mentioned, we as a group strive to help balance and center each other, both to aid in detachment, and to go on to have healthier relationships.

i also think when we are talking about mental illness, things are more complex than "game playing" (importance of a label). on the other hand, we dont want to pathologize every move (over relying on a label). its a balance, which brings me to steelworks point:

people sometimes talk at cross-purposes and offer unhelpful advice from their personal experience. ("These people just want to manipulate you" type comments.) If we were all dealing with pwAPD, that might be useful in helping us interpret our own experiences, but it's confusing and needlessly hurtful for some of us.

... .

I guess the upshot is that we all benefit from accurate information, and we all need to put the emphasis on our own recovery.

... .

I think it's incumbent upon each of us to educate ourselves and keep in mind what is known about BPD before we offer others advice based on our own experience.

and we would be wise to remember that our experience is limited to one usually undiagnosed person. its important that we offer mature, and educated advice, along side showing compassion and validation. we are dealing with spectrum disorders, and human beings. when we start speaking in generalizations, or "they, they, they", or projecting our limited experience onto someone else, we are losing sight of that, and may be engaging in distorted thinking. inadvertently, we are stepping on someone elses recovery.

blue, you have mentioned a lot of your information is coming from the internet/youtube where urban legends flourish, and important distinctions often are not made, and that may confuse things. if youre interested in distinguishing between the various personality disorders, i highly recommend james masterson's Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age.

[Herodias]

 "james masterson's Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age"

Thank you!

[Invictus01]

I think, at least initially, many people try to pinpoint just what in the world they dealt with simply because there is so much confusion. Some people hope it is borderline because it is easier to accept that "he/she loved me so much, he/she just couldn't handle it and walked away before I walked away to protest her or himself". Other people hope it is NPD because it is easier to hate somebody when you know you didn't mean a damn thing to that person. In the end, once you catch yourself after the initial state of confusion and kinda center yourself you understand that, in the grand scheme of things, all this doesn't really matter. At some point of time you were treated like crap. In many cases you were treated like crap repeatedly. Nobody should put up with being treated like crap, personality disorder or not. And that's pretty much the end of it.

Now, it does take a long time to completely get over it. Why, who knows. Personally, I have no desire to get back with her. I have no illusions about it. I wouldn't be able to trust her again after the amount of pain she put me through. And we only had one round, I can't imagine what people go through when they go through multiple rounds and years of this. But... .Every time she pops up out of nowhere, it does set me back a bit. When I found out she got engaged within a year of us being over, it set me back a bit. Why, how, who knows. It just does. But again, it all doesn't change one thing - I don't care what flavor of PD she might or might not have, all it matters is how she treated me at the end. I simply don't have a place in my life for people who treat me like crap.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I readily admit that I have no idea what is wrong with my ex.  I can only make educated guesses.

The word "volatile" came up earlier in this thread and that is precisely the word I would use to describe my ex.  He was a walking, breathing emotional rollercoaster.  I have no idea how a psychologist or psychiatrist might evaluate him, but I can objectively say that he was volatile from my personal experience.  The slightest outside provocation would send him reeling in one direction or another.  He was completely incapable of rationally evaluating situations.  He leaned heavily toward narcissism and paranoia.  His opinion on a given topic would change or evolve by the moment.  Every issue, positive or negative, was taken to an extreme in his mind.  One moment he could trust me with his life.  The next I was a psycho stalker.  There was no in between.

Being around him created a lack of security for me and resulted in a trauma bond.  I constantly lived in doubt about how he felt about me, and anything that wasn't abuse began to feel like love.  Physical interactions with him began to feel like drugs because they were the greatest relief from my fear that he would turn on me and reject me.  Making out felt magical because I knew he wouldn't turn on me in those moments.

I still have to deal with my ex to a limited degree, so I use what I have learned about BPD and NPD to make good decisions to protect myself.  That is the extent to which I need a "diagnosis."  I have also learned that it's very hard for me to register feelings at the center of my emotional range anymore, after having been in two traumatic relationships.  This is the area where I'm working on myself.

[C.Stein]

This. My ex was formally diagnosed with BPD, and I still don't know what he was thinking and why he acted the way he did. Accepting that - which means relinquishing control over that - has been very hard, because often I feel that I will only stop hurting if I can understand what happened 100%. I have to learn that sometimes in life you don't get that clarity, but you have to go on and be happy anyway.

Yes, that is what it all comes down to ... .accepting that we will never really know so we can move on.

As once removed pointed out, trying to fit our ex's into a neatly labeled PD box could lead us down the path of obsession and/or undeserved self absolution if we are not careful.  This keeps us stuck with no potential to learn and grow from this painful and devastating experience.   The other danger here is becoming overly focused on trying to fit other people we know into a neatly labeled PD box.  Before you know it you might find yourself trying to fit everyone you meet into a neatly labeled PD box.  I hope we can all see the danger in that.

Attempting to understand what happened is a necessary part of letting go and healing.  It can give a sense of closure to know why things happened, or in most of our cases, the most likely underlying reasons why.   Learning about BPD and other PDs can help us understand what might be driving the behavior we saw in our ex's ... .and more importantly how that behavior impacts us.  It can also help us understand what drives our own behavior when exposed to someone who suffers from a PD.

Sadly though it can never answer the one question that burns within us all ... .WHY?   I do want to know WHY ... .but I realize I don't need to know WHY nor will I ever truly know WHY.  I don't even think my ex really knows WHY beyond whatever superficial reasons/excuses she uses.  Given all the time I have spent learning about BPD and what I know of my ex, chances are I have a better grasp on the potential reasons WHY she behaved and did the things she did than she does, but that still doesn't really answer the question.

I can however answer the question WHY as it applies to myself.

• WHY did I behave/react the way I did when exposed to the BPD type behavior from my ex?
  
  
• WHY did I allow it to continue?
  
  
• WHY did I allow myself to be blinded?
  
  
• WHY did I allow by boundaries to be violated?
  
  
• WHY did I make the choices I made?
  
  
• WHY do I still feel so hurt and damaged?
  
  These are some questions I should be able to answer ... .really need to answer.  I can't answer these questions if I am stuck looking only at what my ex did or did not do (BPD or not).  If we turn the focus away from questions we can never really answer and focus on ones we can then we can eventually move forward; Hopefully armed with a knowledge and understanding of ourselves that can lead us to a healthy, mutually beneficial relationship.

[Icanteven]

I find almost all of these responses illuminating.  I know my wife has now been officially diagnosed with five mental illnesses (when we got married it was one and it was under control).  BPD is not one of the official diagnoses, but I get really cranky because her doctors have - on purpose - tiptoed around at least one of her other official diagnoses so as not to create a "stigma" that impedes her recovery.  And have admitted as much?  "We know your wife is X, but we're gonna write down Y because we can."

And, when I read about NPD vs BPD, I feel it's the same difference because she ticks so many boxes of both diseases, and because her official diagnoses overlap so heavily with those two diagnoses.

What I have a really, really, really hard time wrapping my head around, though, is how long we were together and that she went from a manageable if lifelong mental illness to a whole bunch of lifelong mental illnesses in very short order, and decompensated so quickly that if I were to get into the details of where we were to where we are today and how quickly things imploded it would make your head spin.

So, for me, it's not so much about "is BPD a diagnosis my wife suffers from?" so much as what triggered all of these cascading system failures that caused the love of my life to walk out on our family almost overnight?  You can't put our children to bed one night and sing them the sweetest lullaby and disappear the next day.  I mean you can if you'd made peace to walk on our family, but, seriously, how mentally ill does one have to be to do that?

[Peterpan]

There never was a diagnosis for my ex AP.

All I knew was that there were many things I noticed from very early on that just didn't feel normal about him. I have very strong communication skills and am also deeply empathic, so when I first met him I immediately felt drawn to his apparent shyness, inability to interact with people. He was very guarded, secretive, evasive etc, so I think I took on the challenge of getting closer to him. From the moment he knew/sensed I liked him he was never out of my personal space. There was a lost boy/ child-like air about him which again, I put down to shyness.

But the moment I even spoke to anyone other man he would show territorial jealousy which was odd for only a co worker.

That was six years ago and that was when I started googling for answers to lots of other things which flagged up.

I've read many sites, but this one ticked every single box from the traits list and scenarios, every single one, but also brought out a sympathy feeling in me. I spent every single conversation analysing his words, trying to convert it all into the thoughts of a lost boy, then trying to explain it all back to him in adult terms, and then passing if all off as it not being his fault because of a disorder.

There was only one incident which made me consider sociopathy, when he was quite justified in raging at a dormouse and would have easily angrily crushed it underfoot if I hadn't intervened. I also passed that off as a shy teenager trying to show off his prowess, but it stuck with me.

The trauma bonds I had with him were so deep and I found that no amount of explaining how I felt actually mattered, he kept me there with constant contact which slowly became all about him, illnesses, problems, excuses, rants, rages about other people, he had a problem every day, if he didn't his contact would be basic and evasive, but if I pulled back in any way he would emerge full force again.

Now that I'm out of it ( physically but not mentally)... .trauma bonds are still there, I know without a doubt that he has at least one disorder, it has ended exactly as I read it would.

Started out with stalking me, taking over me, living a double life with me but keeping me at arms length. Lying, contradictions, projecting, gas lighting, changing relationship dynamics, future faking, forgetting important things, confusing me with someone else a lot, the list goes on, I actually caught him ten months in doing the same with another company worker, his manipulation was so deep that I convinced my self I didn't have proof after all, and I let it go, staying for more of him.

Does it matter? To me it helps to know that although I take my share of blame ( we are both married), I was not involved with someone who had normal thought processes. No one can claim to be deeply in love with you one day then spit you out the next because you asked where you stand after being strung along for a year. No one normal can cause such devastating gut wrenching drama then leave you second guessing what's coming next and allow you to be slandered.

Yes, it matters to me because after everything he put me through, I ended it with some words I regret and know they would hàve hurt him deeper than someone normal ( he still didn't get what it was doing to ME)  I tried to apologise and his reply was all I needed to confirm I was right all along, but was exactly what I needed to help me move on. I can see the smirk on his face as he sent it, and he has used my ladt words,however nice they were against me.and that tells me I'm on the right site here.

[Herodias]

Thanks for your input everyone. Just remembered what one of the psychologists said to him, "you need to stop drinking so we can figure out who you are"... , so true!

[Makersmarksman]

Thanks for your input everyone. Just remembered what one of the psychologists said to him, "you need to stop drinking so we can figure out who you are"... , so true!

She had a therapist who, while throwing out the BPD dx, also stated to me in private that "we can never get to the core of her issues until the drinking has stopped". My stbEX predictably fled this therapist when she felt too cornered, that was right after telling me that she had convinced the therapist that she could just be a "social drinker"!  

7-8 therapists, psychologists and marriage counselors later the common theme from all of them is BPD is highly co-morbid, there are always other traits, tendencies and addictions that go along with it. One acccurately referred to it as "shadows on a wall", that he has never seen a pure BPD without classifications of other personality disorders, throw drug and alcohol addiction on top and you have people that are so broken they can never be put back together.

One thing I always saw was that each one of these professionals always attempted to tackle the addictions first, since they flared so many of the acting out incidents that led us to therapy in the first place.  No one would EVER try and work in reverse, I was told that isnt possible, that alcohol for instance will keep the BPD in denial, there could never be an acceptance of the BPD dx in an alcoholic, they are incapable of accepting that diagnosis.