Mediation Expectations

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am curious if anyone has advice/recommendations about mediation with BPD ex/wife?  It is our first mediation session and it is supposed to only be over the money that we owe each other.  Our divorce is finalized and signed by the judge but she reopened it because of the way our money settlement was handled by me.  I subtracted the money she owed me from a lump sum debt settlement.  She is unhappy with that method despite it being recommended by numerous attorneys and support.  Anyhow, I expect her to drag other new issues into the mediation.  Let me know if you need more details but I am curious how best to move through this?  She has been postcard perfect of a BPD through our divorce so I am definitely expecting new issues but I just don't know what they will be.

[justaboutdone]

I am curious if anyone has advice/recommendations about mediation with BPD ex/wife?  It is our first mediation session and it is supposed to only be over the money that we owe each other.  Our divorce is finalized and signed by the judge but she reopened it because of the way our money settlement was handled by me.  I subtracted the money she owed me from a lump sum debt settlement.  She is unhappy with that method despite it being recommended by numerous attorneys and support.  Anyhow, I expect her to drag other new issues into the mediation.  Let me know if you need more details but I am curious how best to move through this?  She has been postcard perfect of a BPD through our divorce so I am definitely expecting new issues but I just don't know what they will be.

[ForeverDad]

How does she want it changed?  Or is she just saying it isn't right?

How much financial risk do you face?  Just the expense of going back to court?

When perceptions are so subjective and influenced by moods and triggers, not to mention entitlement, anything can be claimed.  Doesn't mean it is supported by reality.

Beware of giving in.  It could work if you were dealing with a reasonably normal person but she would likely perceive it as a demonstration of weakness.  And, as you suspect, there may be more claims and demands.  She has to pose as the Victim and Target.  Doesn't matter that it was the other way around... .

Speaking to the mediator before you exit you could politely explain why mediation failed, "Look the marriage is over, it's baked and done.  We are divorced and no longer married.  But her perceptions are not mine, the financial matters were addressed in the divorce.  The math all adds up.  Nothing nefarious or unfair occurred with the math.  If she has raised additional issues not listed in her complaint, I see no need to address them since they weren't included in her claims to the court for this to be reopened.  I'm not willing to be subjected to a "fishing expedition".  I have Moved On and I wish she would as well.  May as well let her go on to court if she wishes and let the court explain it to her since she's not listening here."

[livednlearned]

A really good mediator will have skills to validate what she's feeling (fear of being broke? fear someone pulled a fast one? who knows) and make her feel heard without giving an inch. A fantastic mediator will make her thing she came up with a solution on her own. I watched a webinar with Bill Eddy, (former social worker and currently practicing as a family law attorney), who also founded the High Conflict Institute, mediate two high-conflict couples in a simulation of how to work with people who have a PD. It was pretty impressive, though I'm not sure how many mediators have that level of skill.

It isn't likely that your ex will walk in with an alternate plan unless she has a good attorney who is counseling her.

Do you plan to be in the room with her? Sometimes a mediator alone in the room can help, and sometimes it's best to be in the room with the mediator + lawyer, especially if you can be empathetic to her demands while having the resolve to not budge on your offer.

With my ex, I learned to hike my negotiations above and beyond what felt reasonable to me so that he could "win" by getting something in the middle, usually what I figured was fair all along. He was particularly high conflict, though, and quite narcissistic and that approach worked best for us.

Sometimes the hardest part is letting them feel like they are winning. After years of conflict, it took a couple years of fighting for me to realize that it's ok for him to feel like he's winning if I'm not violating any of my own boundaries or values.

You used leverage to make sure that you were paid by someone who would (in all likelihood) not pay you. I did the same in my own case when possible and it seemed to be widely recognized as good practice by lawyers, mediators, and judges.

A good mediator will make her feel that she was wise to pay you off so early because of all the other bad things that could happen if she hadn't been so smart. 

[ForeverDad]

We know that we as reasonably normal people can negotiate responsibly and that we will comply with the outcome.  The elephant in the room is that we can't trust the other person to reciprocate.  In fact, it is highly doubtful, it's an aspect of their acting-out disorder, they have a heightened sense of self to the exclusion of others and especially us.

In other words, whatever accommodation you two agree to, that is, if agreement even happens, you need to ensure you have LEVERAGE to ensure compliance with the order.

For example, let's assume you both have jointly owned vehicles that need to get new titles, one for you, one for her.  You each need to sign over your respective interests in the vehicles so you end up with one and she ends up with the other.  A recipe for utter disaster is to sign the title for her car and send it to her and then ask her to sign for your car's title.  It is predictable that she could ignore your request and then you're *stuck*.  Why?  You gifted away your Leverage, the title she needed you to sign.  A good solution is to sign them and trade the titles at the same time.  Better yet, have a witness, you both go to the title agency, both stand before the window, both sign on the dotted lines with the staffer holding tight to both forms.  Do you see how to out-think you're disordered Ex's sense of Me First?

Another example, imagine the house was jointly owned and jointly mortgaged... .  You know she could sign the paperwork to you and you'd hand over to her any monies required.  However, you would have to insist that a large portion of the payment to her would have to be withheld (escrow?) until after she was off both the deed and the mortgage.

The point is that withholding money, perhaps in escrow, is Leverage for compliance.  Sadly, a court order alone is not enough, it's time consuming, expensive and iffy to get enforcement of an order.  In the above example, (1) if she was getting the house you would have to make sure it was refinanced without your name on the mortgage and (2) if you were getting the house you'd have to make sure you got a quit claim deed from her.  You don't want to give up ownership and yet be liable for the mortgage or her failure to file the quit claim deed you signed.  Similarly, you don't want a house that she hasn't signed a quit claim deed to give you a clean ownership deed.

In all of the above, holding the final large chunk of payment in escrow is Leverage for compliance, like nothing else can be.  The Ex may be disordered but nearly all know the value of $$$.   You know you will do the right thing, you can't trust the Ex to reciprocate.  Sad but that's the reality.

[trappeddad]

i would not spend many legal feed at mediation.     be sure there is some quick progress if so.    also do not spend much time in mediation if your ex has $, as she can afford going to court.    i had to give in during mediation as i did not want to spend the $ going to court and my ex plays the victim very well.     if evidence mattered in family court, i would have been a tougher negotiater in mediation

[justaboutdone]

Thank you all very much for the good responses.  It is the same reason I thought to turn this site when I was approaching mediation.  I actually met the mediator today.   The mediator provided a very interesting experience.  It was in a large shed in his yard that was just big enough to accommodate a table while he dressed very casually with flip flops. It was actually a very low threat environment except for the Ex who sat across the table repeatedly throwing out false statement after false statement.  I felt the need to repeatedly defend myself after each false statement and this was very time consuming.  I think the mediator quickly saw how obnoxious her statements were and gave them very low credibility but still had to listen to her and appear neutral.  In the end, only a little was resolved after 4 hours.  When we discussed money and I questioned her about reimbursement for some ridiculous expenses, she got angry, stood up and said she can't negotiate with me.  I think he was surprised and maybe questioned himself why the mediation so quickly took a sharp turn.  He wants to try and meet again.  I think the mediation may help us get through some things but I don't ever think she will be contempt and will always be looking for ways to throw daggers.

In other words, whatever accommodation you two agree to, that is, if agreement even happens, you need to ensure you have LEVERAGE to ensure compliance with the order.

For example, let's assume you both have jointly owned vehicles that need to get new titles, one for you, one for her.  You each need to sign over your respective interests in the vehicles so you end up with one and she ends up with the other.  A recipe for utter disaster is to sign the title for her car and send it to her and then ask her to sign for your car's title.  It is predictable that she could ignore your request and then you're *stuck*.  Why?  You gifted away your Leverage, the title she needed you to sign.  A good solution is to sign them and trade the titles at the same time.  Better yet, have a witness, you both go to the title agency, both stand before the window, both sign on the dotted lines with the staffer holding tight to both forms.  Do you see how to out-think you're disordered Ex's sense of Me First?

This scenario happened throughout our entire divorcees process, including the example you provided above.  My lawyer and I were so frustrated because her word meant nothing after several months into the divorce.  The court never saw any of this happening. We finally got some leverage in the end and I wouldn't pay her anymore spousal or child support until she signed the final papers.  Well she still wouldn't sign after many months.  Meanwhile she is running around town telling everyone what a deadbeat I am and refuse to pay her child support. 

[flourdust]

Could you try mediation in separate rooms? (You're in one room, she's in another, the mediator goes back and forth.) If your presence triggers her to dysregulate, then having you out of sight might make the time more productive.

That's my plan for my divorce.

[justaboutdone]

Could you try mediation in separate rooms? (You're in one room, she's in another, the mediator goes back and forth.) If your presence triggers her to dysregulate, then having you out of sight might make the time more productive.

That's my plan for my divorce.

Halfway thorough he did separate us to talk individually. It did help us make progress. I have no idea what she told him but I would assume it was far from the truth. But yes, we did make good progress with this technique.