Why am I often wounded by unsafe people?

[Moselle]

It seems like a pattern of being a victim, and victimhood is a choice, once we are aware of it.

Is it that we have a low opinion of ourselves and seek out people who correlate with that by treating us poorly?

If so, the answer is improving our self compassion, self love and general opinion of ourselves.

Any Thoughts?

[Grey Kitty]

I've seen a bunch of people who arrive here and come to realize how toxic/dysfunctional their partner (or expartner)  is/was... .and what their role in the dysfunction was, how they chose to participate in those games as a victim.

And in many cases, those same people realize that their relationships with friends, family, and coworkers are mostly just as messed up, and often in very similar ways.

Yes, healing yourself is ultimately the solution. But how to do it? Seeing a good therapist is one way.

Another thing I'd recommend is take inventory of the people in your life and look at which ones seem like healthy relationships, or at least healthier than the others... .and start shifting your energy that direction.

Make an effort to spend time with the friends who really do treat you well, etc.

You may find that most of your friends don't really make the cut. I liked this essay on friendships a lot:

www.waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-probably-part.html

[married21years]

nice guys can provide what a BPD gf needs, this means we can stay the course better than most.

this is not a flaw just an observetion.

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com

 

[Moselle]

Thanks GK and Married21years for your comments.

This is tough. I've lived for 41 years with a template where I play victim in this drama triangle. Its a recurring pattern, which I learned as a boy in a dysfunctional environment, and I am being patient with myself as I recover from it. It doesn't happen as fast as I would like, but there is progress.

Yes, therapy does help. Group work eg CODA also plays a role.

What caught me, is the people pleasing aspect. I realise that I feel pressured to do what someone wants if they use guilt, fear or obligation. This is a compliance pattern I learned as a boy. Now here's the kicker... .

My reason for pleasing is based on self esteem. I think poorly of myself. To avoid rejection which proves that I am worthless, I learned to please. I learned to do whatever it took to avoid rejection. Then I couldn't be hurt. But this is childish thinking as it puts the power firmly in the hands of those I meet - family, friends, or enemies. And we certainly can't please everybody. This was my aha moment, and I don't feel the need to please any more. I dont need this any more

[goateeki]

I realize how impoverished -- more and more I feel like that is the right word -- my marriage to my diagnosed pwBPD wife was, but I don't think I ever felt like a victim.  I don't like the word or the idea. I know that given the very unusual circumstances in which our relationship started that I couldn't ask anything of her, and I was not like that with any woman before her or since her.  I felt like the opposite of a victim.  I felt capable and resilient, getting by on what little she could offer me, and dealing with her emotional problems in what was for the most part a kind and productive way.

The thing is, I didn't have to be in that situation with that woman.  I chose to be there day after day, discharging my duty.  Eventually, though, these things take their toll and you have nothing left to run on.  You become a shell of a person.  It took me almost 20 years from start to finish.

Being a victim, the idea of victimhood and the role it plays in relationships with a pwBPD or maybe any PD -- it's an interesting and fluid thing. I'd never characterize myself as a victim and never felt like one, and yet I was fine getting the short end of the stick every day for two decades.   

[lunchbox123]

Have you considered reading "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad?

I started reading it today and explains a lot about the different types of caretaker roles that we may play in these relationships and how to alter your behaviour.

[fromheeltoheal]

Something that's been working for me is to focus on the concepts of self-abandonment and self-protection.  When we put other people's needs ahead of our own, we've abandoned ourselves.  When we let other people bust our boundaries, we aren't practicing self-protection.  So first step is to focus on those and decide how to act from that frame.  Then, take a look at all of our relationships and see who's OK with us abandoning ourselves and who's a boundary buster; those are not friends and need to be removed.  Then as we build new relationships, populate our lives with empowering people, who won't let us abandon ourselves?  Who will respect our boundaries and expect us to protect ourselves?  Keep those.  It's a brand new day.

[Moselle]

Have you considered reading "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad?

Yes. This was one of the first I read. Very good book. Just dont let a BPD or NPD find it. From first hand experience, it drives them into a frenzy.

Have a look at the section on the Karpmann triangle. The roles we play are victim, rescuer and persecutor.  .

[Moselle]

Something that's been working for me is to focus on the concepts of self-abandonment and self-protection.  When we put other people's needs ahead of our own, we've abandoned ourselves.  When we let other people bust our boundaries, we aren't practicing self-protection.  So first step is to focus on those and decide how to act from that frame.  Then, take a look at all of our relationships and see who's OK with us abandoning ourselves and who's a boundary buster; those are not friends and need to be removed.  Then as we build new relationships, populate our lives with empowering people, who won't let us abandon ourselves?  Who will respect our boundaries and expect us to protect ourselves?  Keep those.  It's a brand new day.

Fhth. Thanks for sharing that.  That is indeed a powerful way to do some relationship spring cleaning. I began a spring clean three years ago. I did not know much more than that they were both bad for me. First my business partner- out. Then my wife-out. It has cost me alot :-)  Who said mental health comes cheaply?

I have found a few healthy friends along the way too.

[jhkbuzz]

Thanks GK and Married21years for your comments.

This is tough. I've lived for 41 years with a template where I play victim in this drama triangle. Its a recurring pattern, which I learned as a boy in a dysfunctional environment, and I am being patient with myself as I recover from it. It doesn't happen as fast as I would like, but there is progress.

Yes, therapy does help. Group work eg CODA also plays a role.

What caught me, is the people pleasing aspect. I realise that I feel pressured to do what someone wants if they use guilt, fear or obligation. This is a compliance pattern I learned as a boy. Now here's the kicker... .

My reason for pleasing is based on self esteem. I think poorly of myself. To avoid rejection which proves that I am worthless, I learned to please. I learned to do whatever it took to avoid rejection. Then I couldn't be hurt. But this is childish thinking as it puts the power firmly in the hands of those I meet - family, friends, or enemies. And we certainly can't please everybody. This was my aha moment, and I don't feel the need to please any more. I dont need this any more

It's not "childish" behavior, it's a strategy you used as a child that helped you survive in your dysfunctional family. That's an important distinction. Don't scold yourself for it; celebrate the fact that the young "you" came up with a strategy to survive. Your strategy worked - because here you are today. Yay you!  

But I also understand that the angst you feel today is that this strategy (in present day r/s's)  is not helping you - in fact, it's harming you. What to do?

I'm almost two years out of an 8 year r/s with my exBPD partner. I found a therapist right before the r/s ended, and spent a year and a half with her. We did lots and lots of talking, and she helped me figure a lot of things out (about the r/s). It was very helpful, and I now have a coherent "story" of the r/s, and why things unfolded the way they did. Naturally, over time, the conversations became more and me about me, and the things that I might need to heal from.

There's a good amount; I had an often raging mother; a father who was often emotionally absent (and who never stepped in to stop my mother's raging and hitting); and I was molested at a young age by another family member. I've talked about it all in therapy; I understand all of it and how it has affected my life (anxiety-ridden r/s's with men, for example) - but this "understanding" has never fixed anything. That's the worst part of it all. I know what's wrong, but this "knowing" doesn't seem to help me in any way, shape or form.

After about a year and a half with my therapist, she decided to end her practice and highly recommended another therapist. I was both slightly horrified and intrigued; I think that twists and turns like this often happen for a reason - so off I went.

My new therapist talks to me, but talking is not the focus. I almost didn't know how to respond to her; her extended silences made me uncomfortable and uncertain. My old therapist and I talked and talked and talked; we talk ourselves silly on these boards; isn't talking the key? My new therapist would suddenly ask me to do things like look around the room we were in to take everything in; to notice how my feet feel on the floor, how my body feels on the couch, to notice my responses as we did speak (sometimes holding my breath, sometimes breathing deeply, sometimes chewing on my lip, sometimes scratching)... .I didn't know what to make of any of it.

I started talking about my discomfort after several sessions - that I couldn't figure out what in the world she was doing. She began to explain that our nervous systems hold the memory of trauma, and it's not simply a matter of "talking it out" to heal. Our "talking it out" engages our forebrain, the seat of our "thinking" brain. But the real problem is that our trauma remains "frozen" in the more ancient parts of our brain and this is what needs to be addressed. So... .her requests for me to pay attention to my body responses is a method of getting in touch with that frozen trauma. (Victims of childhood molestation are often "out of touch" with their bodies - and part of the healing process is to reconnect). Here's an example: I've talked about my mom and her raging to any number of people. But when I talked to my current therapist about it, I suddenly began scratching at my neck. Because she has taught me how to notice my bodily responses, I noticed right away. I also realized that I suffered from eczema as a child and young adult - it was so bad that I would scratch myself until I bled. Was this truly a medical condition - or a traumatic response to my mother's raging? And how is it that I have been out of my parent's house for 35 years - but when I begin talking about it again (as a fully autonomous, independent and successful adult) my nervous system still "remembers" and compels me to begin tearing at my own skin?

I also shared what I remembered of the molestation. I told my therapist that I "understand" that my anxiety with men is a direct result of the molestation - but understanding this doesn't lessen my anxiety. She explained that I was still having a "flight response" to men many years after the actual event. And as I started to go into the details that I could remember about the molestation, my legs were crossed and one of my legs began to involuntarily kick - not wildly, but it was kicking. I was shocked - I couldn't really stop it. She explained that it was a trauma response - that in frightening situations, our nervous system compels us to "fight or flee" - but during the molestation I couldn't do either. That's what creates the trauma - and my nervous system still remembers.

In an effort to understand all of this I began reading a book called "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" by  Bessel van der Kolk MD. It is one of the most fascinating books I've ever read - I highly recommend it to everyone on these boards. It will make you think very differently about trauma in your past and your path to healing. I'm not an expert so I can't "explain" all of it to you - I'm learning about it myself. But I can't recommend it enough!

[Moselle]

Thanks JHKbuzz,

That's a fascinating explanation of it. Trauma and our responses are imprinted deeply onto our psyche. Its goes beyond simple, rational understanding and sits there in our subconscious.

Its interesting that our feelings and sensations are the gateway to get in touch with the trauma residue.

In group therapy, we often talk about parenting the inner child. As part of the excercise we had to bring photographs of ourselves as a toddler, child and adolescent and describe how we feel about each of the pictures. It's quite fascinating how the emotions are close to the surface. I was angry about some, happy about others. I am very curious about the book you mentioned "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" by  Bessel van der Kolk MD

[jhkbuzz]

Thanks JHKbuzz,

That's a fascinating explanation of it. Trauma and our responses are imprinted deeply onto our psyche. Its goes beyond simple, rational understanding and sits there in our subconscious.

Its interesting that our feelings and sensations are the gateway to get in touch with the trauma residue.

It's actually not that it sits in our subconscious, it's that it sits in the midbrain, the seat of our emotions.

One of the things the book explains is that the forebrain expresses itself in thoughts, the midbrain expresses itself in bodily sensations - fight or flight, the fear in your throat, the knot in your stomach, your heart pounding, your fast and shallow breathing. The midbrain is also where fragmented thoughts and memories of trauma reside, and they're not easily accessible to the forebrain. From the book: "Trauma is much more than a story about something that happened long ago. The emotions and physical sensations that were imprinted during the trauma are experienced not as memories but as disruptive physical reactions in the present." (i.e. my scratching, my kicking - bodily reactions I wasn't even aware of a month ago).

I bet when you resist the urge to people please, your resistance is accompanied by bodily sensations. What are they?

[Moselle]

I bet when you resist the urge to people please, your resistance is accompanied by bodily sensations. What are they?

This is fascinating and a bit scary. I feel unease in my stomach. Tightness in my throat. My heart pounds and I want to run and hide somewhere. I look for something pleasurable to do. Eat, intimacy, sport - anything that will get the endorphins to kick in.

Wow. That chain of events is the first time I have linked them.

I'm going to be kind about this and not get too hard on myself. What do I do with this information?

[Caley]

I've seen a bunch of people who arrive here and come to realize how toxic/dysfunctional their partner (or expartner)  is/was... .and what their role in the dysfunction was, how they chose to participate in those games as a victim.

And in many cases, those same people realize that their relationships with friends, family, and coworkers are mostly just as messed up, and often in very similar ways.

Yes, healing yourself is ultimately the solution. But how to do it? Seeing a good therapist is one way.

Another thing I'd recommend is take inventory of the people in your life and look at which ones seem like healthy relationships, or at least healthier than the others... .and start shifting your energy that direction.

Make an effort to spend time with the friends who really do treat you well, etc.

You may find that most of your friends don't really make the cut. I liked this essay on friendships a lot:

www.waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-probably-part.html

Top shelf advice.

[balletomane]

Another user (I forget who it was) once posted on here, "I was not a victim, I was a volunteer."

I found this idea extremely helpful in approaching my own healing. Yes, in one sense I was a victim; my ex was abusive, and at first acknowledging that I'd been victimised was powerful, because he had spent a long time manipulating me and bullying me into believing that he was always right and I was always wrong. The first step to recovery was looking at what had happened and saying to myself, "Yes, you were the victim in that, and it wasn't right for him to treat you that way." But after a while I began to feel stuck in this stage, constantly dwelling on what had happened without any sense of how to get away from it. This is where the 'volunteer' concept came in handy. I switched my focus from what he'd done to why I'd tolerated it for so long, and this in itself made me feel more positive about my ability to change things.

[Moselle]

I switched my focus from what he'd done to why I'd tolerated it for so long, and this in itself made me feel more positive about my ability to change things.

Thanks Balletomane. This is powerful  because it is a form of ownership. When we own it, we can change it.

I have had similar relationships since. Not fully borderline but some of the traits. When I realised what was happening, I ended them but another example would be owning why I am attracted to people like this instead of saying "why are they attracted to me". Until we change this truamatised emotional centre, the attraction will be there

And I really really... .really dont want this any more

[jhkbuzz]

I bet when you resist the urge to people please, your resistance is accompanied by bodily sensations. What are they?

This is fascinating and a bit scary. I feel unease in my stomach. Tightness in my throat. My heart pounds and I want to run and hide somewhere. I look for something pleasurable to do. Eat, intimacy, sport - anything that will get the endorphins to kick in.

Wow. That chain of events is the first time I have linked them.

I'm going to be kind about this and not get too hard on myself. What do I do with this information?

Oh goodness, don't be hard on yourself, be kind to yourself! 

It sounds like you're having a "flight" response. I can relate. But I'm not sure exactly how to give you advice because I'm not overly knowledgeable about it all. I'm 1/2 way through the book and I'm seeing a therapist that embraces this approach. In other words, I'm being guided through my own trauma by an expert - I'm not going at it alone. And I'm a little afraid of telling you the wrong thing, or giving you bad advice.

Maybe start with the book? Another one my therapist recommended today was "Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine. Begin to pay attention to your body's responses - not just the thoughts that are running through your head.

Here's a little more from the book:

"If we want to change post traumatic reactions, we have to access the emotional brain and do "limbic  system therapy:' repairing faulty alarm systems and restoring the emotional brain to its ordinary job of being a quiet background presence that takes care of the housekeeping of the body, ensuring that you eat, sleep, connect with intimate partners, protect your children, and defend against danger. The neuroscientist Joseph LeDoux and his colleagues have shown that the only way we can consciously access the emotional brain is through self-awareness, i.e. by activating the medial prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that notices what is going on inside us... .neuroscience research shows that the only way we can change the way we feel is by becoming aware of our inner experiences and to befriend what is going on inside ourselves... .

... .At the core of recovery is self-awareness. The most important phrases in trauma therapy are "Notice that" and "What happens next?" Traumatized people live with seemingly unbearable sensations: They feel heartbroken and suffer from intolerable sensations in the pit of their stomach or tightness in their chest. Yet avoiding feeling these sensations in our bodies increases our vulnerability to being overwhelmed by them. Body awareness puts us in touch with our inner world, the landscape of our organism... .traumatized people are often afraid of feeling. it is not so much the perpetrators but their own physical sensations that are now the enemy. Apprehension about being hijacked by uncomfortable sensations keeps the body frozen and the mind shut. Even though the trauma is a thing of the past, the emotional brain keeps generating sensations that make the sufferer feel scared and helpless."

I don't know if any of this helps, but I hope it does.

You know, for the first time in my life I actually feel like there's a very real possibility that I will heal from the trauma of being molested - which also means that there's a real chance that can enter into a r/s without feeling like I'm carrying 800 lbs of luggage with me.

I'm hopeful. 

[jhkbuzz]

Moselle; I feel a little clearer this a.m., so I'd like to give a shot at a better explanation:

Your "people pleasing" may be a large chunk of the reason why you've ended up in the r/s's you have. You may have this urge with others outside of intimate r/s's as well - it sounds like you do.

But this is the thing: you are a people-pleaser because you were traumatized at a young age and this strategy helped you survive in difficult situations. What this view of trauma (that I'm learning about) says is this: you are not a people-pleaser today simply because you have low self esteem, or because you're weak, or because there is something wrong with your mental processing - your people-pleasing is a result of an extremely uncomfortable physiological response that arises from your nervous system when you try to step outside of this ancient strategy. It is as if your nervous system (and midbrain) still believes there is a threat, even though your forebrain knows there isn't.  If your nervous system can be "calmed down" (and according to everything I'm reading, it can), then you would be free to evaluate situations from a calm mindset and act accordingly.

Hope this helps!

[Moselle]

Yes, this helps phenomenally.

I've started a thread called "How do we heal from the excruciating trauma of a BPD relationship?" on this board. Please can you copy paste some of your insights on that thread. Let's discuss this.

PS I've ordered the book :-)

[jhkbuzz]

Yes, this helps phenomenally.

I've started a thread called "How do we heal from the excruciating trauma of a BPD relationship?" on this board. Please can you copy paste some of your insights on that thread. Let's discuss this.

PS I've ordered the book :-)

Glad to hear that!

"The Body Keeps the Score" will give you a thorough background on this view of trauma, as well as an understanding of the brain and all the brain structures involved. It even gives some background of the development of psychology. There are stories sprinkled throughout, but it's also academic. I liked that about it. It's not just theory, it's based on actual research into brain functionality.

"Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine (which I ordered yesterday) appears to be more of a "workbook" to help work through trauma. I'll let you know if I like it when I receive it - but I suspect I will. The book includes a CD and specific exercises to do to become more aware of your inner landscape.

[Moselle]

Yes, this helps phenomenally.

I've started a thread called "How do we heal from the excruciating trauma of a BPD relationship?" on this board. Please can you copy paste some of your insights on that thread. Let's discuss this.

PS I've ordered the book :-)

Glad to hear that!

"The Body Keeps the Score" will give you a thorough background on this view of trauma, as well as an understanding of the brain and all the brain structures involved. It even gives some background of the development of psychology. There are stories sprinkled throughout, but it's also academic. I liked that about it. It's not just theory, it's based on actual research into brain functionality.

"Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine (which I ordered yesterday) appears to be more of a "workbook" to help work through trauma. I'll let you know if I like it when I receive it - but I suspect I will. The book includes a CD and specific exercises to do to become more aware of your inner landscape.

Gonna order that too :-)