Need help stopping pain of this relationship

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, here's the story. I have been in relationship with pwBPD for over a year. He chased me. He told me he wanted to be with me. I left my husband and pwBPD  disappeared. (he is married but separated and he and wife live in different states). We started again. PwBPD lost his job. He was fired/quit. It ends soon. In the last couple of months, he has been trying. Does not break promises, comes in to see me (we are long distance also) -- we are seeing each other every couple of weeks -- tries to suppress disregulation around me. He said he is trying to understand himself and merge his different "modes."

I love spending time with him. I love even talking with him on the phone. But afterward, I feel panicky. I wake up crying. There's a lot of pain. Which probably comes from mistrust, the knowledge that this will never/could never work out, and also that he will return to his wife when his job ends. He says their plan is to sell their house and get divorced. But he has been telling me this for a year and there is one obstacle after another. It may be their plan, but I don't know whether it will ever happen. And after they get divorced -- if they get divorced -- no idea what will happen then. The BPD stuff scares me. I know he feels differently about me at different times -- he acknowledged this.

I agree to talk to him. I agree to see him. Last week, I went to visit him with one of the children. although we stayed at a hotel, I broke a boundary I set for myself. I own all this. And the pain.

So, either a) how do I stop feeling such grief and pain or b) how do I stop seeing him.

Perhaps what I am most scared about is this: He will go back home, which is painful to me. What is more painful is the thought that he will contact me and I will respond and perpetuate this. Right now, we can pretend he is separated. He is in a way. I can call him whenever I want and he will answer the phone. He lives alone. Soon he will live with his wife. He will not necessarily answer the phone if I call. He will have to call me when she is not home or when he is away from the house. There is the chance that they will reconcile. This whole prospect is humiliating.

[Narkiss]

So, here's the story. I have been in relationship with pwBPD for over a year. He chased me. He told me he wanted to be with me. I left my husband and pwBPD  disappeared. (he is married but separated and he and wife live in different states). We started again. PwBPD lost his job. He was fired/quit. It ends soon. In the last couple of months, he has been trying. Does not break promises, comes in to see me (we are long distance also) -- we are seeing each other every couple of weeks -- tries to suppress disregulation around me. He said he is trying to understand himself and merge his different "modes."

I love spending time with him. I love even talking with him on the phone. But afterward, I feel panicky. I wake up crying. There's a lot of pain. Which probably comes from mistrust, the knowledge that this will never/could never work out, and also that he will return to his wife when his job ends. He says their plan is to sell their house and get divorced. But he has been telling me this for a year and there is one obstacle after another. It may be their plan, but I don't know whether it will ever happen. And after they get divorced -- if they get divorced -- no idea what will happen then. The BPD stuff scares me. I know he feels differently about me at different times -- he acknowledged this.

I agree to talk to him. I agree to see him. Last week, I went to visit him with one of the children. although we stayed at a hotel, I broke a boundary I set for myself. I own all this. And the pain.

So, either a) how do I stop feeling such grief and pain or b) how do I stop seeing him.

Perhaps what I am most scared about is this: He will go back home, which is painful to me. What is more painful is the thought that he will contact me and I will respond and perpetuate this. Right now, we can pretend he is separated. He is in a way. I can call him whenever I want and he will answer the phone. He lives alone. Soon he will live with his wife. He will not necessarily answer the phone if I call. He will have to call me when she is not home or when he is away from the house. There is the chance that they will reconcile. This whole prospect is humiliating.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Narkiss, Let's look at your situation dispassionately, without judgment.  You're having a long-distance love affair with a married guy suffering from BPD, right?  And you're in love with him?  I think it helps sometimes to look at the facts, without labeling anything as right or wrong, good or bad.  Have I basically summed up your quandary?

You probably know this but let me remind you that you can't control when and if your pwPBD gets divorced.  By the same token, you can't control whether he will return to his wife.  The only thing you can control is your response to his marital status.  Maybe you are OK with the ambiguity in your r/s?  Maybe not, or you wouldn't be posting here.

Let me ask you another question: how do you see this playing out?

These are tough questions, I know, but may help you to reduce the pain of your r/s.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

Solid Questions and analysis from Lucky Jim.

Can you add more detail to going to visit him with "one of the children"?  Yours?  His? 

FF

[Narkiss]

Lucky Jim: Yes, that's about the size of it. I am in long distance relationship with a married guy with BPD and in love with him. I think a lot of the pain and frustration comes from trying to get control over things I cannot change -- also disbelief. When I first met him he told me they had been separated for many years and were going to get divorced as soon as they took care of some financial issues and property. My interpretation was that they had little to do with each other except for business. I also did not know about the BPD and assumed that he was a normal, though troubled, person -- and ignored many red flags.

I never, never, never would have gotten involved if it did not sound like a divorce was imminent.

How do I see this playing out? At this point, he has not gotten another job. He will go back and live with his wife (who is taking care one of his parents whom he hates). I expect to that he will be miserable and call me at some point -- probably sooner than later. And then I will have to decide what to do. That's where some of the pain is coming in.

If he follows through on the divorce or just decides to move here (which he has talked of doing), I do not see a good outcome either -- unless he is able to figure out and control the BPD. I will be with a person whom I love, but who is unstable, surrounded by chaos, who feels there is a wide discrepancy between his abilities and his accomplishments (which is correct) and whose emotional reality changes on a dime. Shortly after I first met him, I told him that I couldn't see any way this could work out (for different reasons), and it's still true. Unless he is gains the self-awareness needed to change and -- makes a decision to commit to me -- I would probably be miserable. I know this.

And FF: I took one of mine. We were very appropriate and it made no impact on my son. Still... .

[formflier]

What is the best decision you can make for your family?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Narkiss, OK, well you seem to have a good handle on ways in which things could fall apart.  Armed with that knowledge, I wonder if you are setting yourself up for disappointment or something much more painful.  Let me ask you another question: what is the longest period of time you have spent with your pwBPD?  The reason I ask is because sometimes BPD behavior takes time to emerge.  Have you seen any dramatic or inappropriate behavior so far that makes you pause?  Perhaps rage?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[Narkiss]

The longest I have spent with him at a time was two days. It has never gone completely well. He has never raged at me (the most I have gotten were some minor critical comments a year ago). BUT I have seen him rage against others, and it is ugly -- corrosive, bitter, completely unfair, even paranoid. One week, I was his salvation. Two weeks later, he decided I was in the way and politely packed me up and sent me home. He would plan to come to visit, then cancel at the last minute and act as if I was imposing on him for even asking him. I have seen him disassociate. He cuts himself. In the most egregious example, he told me he was coming in, canceled for no reason, then turned up at a dinner -- with a date -- where i was at. He was shocked that I was there.

At the best -- and this is the side I mainly see -- he is witty, intelligent, caring. He listens whole-heartedly. We understand each other and can talk all night. In the last couple of months, he has been doing his best to hold things together around me. But this can also be because he is losing his job and will return home.

I think one of the reasons why I go through so much pain after I see or talk to him is that it is a mirage -- so wonderful, but I can't tell if it is real, if this is who he is, if I will even see him again after this month.   

[formflier]

 

OK, I think this is time for a step back.

What are you after here?  There is nothing in your story that leads me to believe he is stable or interested in getting better.

It will turn on your as/if you get closer.  No way around it.

FF

[JohnLove]

I know these things are complicated, but just for reference. My "partner" cancelling on ME and then turning up to the same dinner with a "date" would be a deal breaker for me. This is not a relationship. This is just SO wrong on SO many levels it isn't funny. 

The misleading and intentional disappointing is bad enough... .but the lying, cheating, and infidelity is the worst.

You opened your heart and became vulnerable... .to this?

No wonder you are in so much pain.  :'(

[patientandclear]

Narkiss, I commend you for being SO clear on the good and the bad.  Few are able to do that so frankly.

While if you look at only the bad, the ordinary reaction is those shared above ("a dealbreaker", I think the hard part is that it is almost impossible to actually accept that that happened and will happen, because it's so hard to reconcile with the good part, which seems so special and hard to come by.  Sure the two will align eventually and in favor of the good?  I think that's what our brains try to tell us.

You put your finger on why the good is threatened by the bad: because, due to the bad, you can't trust the good.  That is indeed the problem.

I would guess that, since you understand it so clearly, understanding is not enough to achieve clarity about what you want to do.  You might consider somatic trauma therapies -- lifespan integration or sensorimotor psychotherapy.  lifespanintegration.org and sensorimotorpsychotherapy.org

I found that both assisted me in finding my way to what I wanted and needed to do under somewhat similar circumstances, when all the talking in the world was not resolving it.

You frame two choices: live in the r/ship with less pain, or leave it.  I know enough to say that the trick to living in the r/ship with less pain is to accept what he does, stop fighting it, stop trying to change it to the extent you are.  Stop hoping he will change.  Practice good practices on your own part and let go of the outcome.  You've listed a number of potential outcomes it seems like it would be hard to let go of ... .but maybe you can?  If you can't, it seems like that will help guide the decision.

[formflier]

  Stop hoping he will change. 

Change takes real consistent effort.

Yes, you can change the relationship dynamic, even if your partner does NOT want to change.  But that will quickly lead you to boundaries and much less contact.

I think patientandclear has laid out a couple pathways for you. Choosing either path is not something to be done lightly. 

Would be a great idea to discuss in detail here and/or with a therapist in person.

FF

[Narkiss]

He is not stable. I think he is interested in getting better. But right now, I think he is trying to put one foot in front of the other so he doesn't fall off a cliff. Or fall even farther.

Please help me change the dynamic. I guess I am not ready to end it, although I keep talking about it. I almost wish he would. That would be easier than this in a way.

PC: You have put your finger on it. Understanding is not enough. Talking is not enough. It has helped me gain clarity. I see both parts clearly but have been unable to reconcile them. The good does seems so special and hard to find (to understand another person and have him understand me--I have never before had this with another person) that it cancels the bad out, although the bad is always there lurking in the background. I have not heard of either therapy. I'll look into both.

How do I let go?

[formflier]

How do I let go?

It is a decision you make each day, then each week, and each month.  Make a decision to focus on other things.  Use wisdom to override feelings.

Feelings aren't wrong, but they don't "command" action.  You have a choice.

I would think a great thing to work on/discuss in therapy is about that special feeling that you feel with him.  What is it that makes it so special, that you will accept such bad behavior to get it.

Last:  What is the best choice for your family.  Put on your "mom hat" and think about that.

FF

[Narkiss]

The feelings are so strong. My T thinks that one of the reasons this happened was to let me feel my feelings. Now, I am trying to look at them and consider them instead of let them lead me -- not sure if I am succeeding.

If I put on the "mom hat," the best choice would be to isolate him into a corner of my life, if I cannot/do not want to let go. I have let this relationship become too important. Whatever happens, I do not see him moving in anytime soon or even becoming that involved in my children's lives. The best case scenario, I would spend time him when my husband has the kids. Maybe in time, we would all go out for pizza or a movie, and everyone would get to know each other slowly.

He sees children as very special. He also has a lot of self-control. He has never raged at me. I do not think he would rage or be unpleasant to the children. Their father does actually, and I cannot control that. BUT this is all a dream and a fantasy. Many things have to happen before we even get to this point, which likely won't.

I know he wants to become more self-aware and merge his different "modes." I hope he starts with that.

I think the pain comes because I see the good, so much good -- and I can't trust it. And I have no reason to.

[formflier]

  He has never raged at me. I do not think he would rage or be unpleasant to the children. 

 


Why would his disorder not affect the way that he interacts with you and with the children.?


This is VERY DANGEROUS thinking.  "I or these things are so special that the pwBPD would NEVER do xyz".

Who is responsible for protecting and guiding your children?

FF

[Narkiss]

It does. I just said he doesn't rage at people directly. He keeps it inside. He'll become distant and remote. I have seen dramatic emotional swings and distorted thinking and disassociation. He has gotten incredibly angry at me for trivial reasons --a wrong turn, for example. He does not lash out. It's more silent anger and goes away quickly when the problem is fixed. He could keep it together around my children for an afternoon, for instance. 

That is far down the road. It is a fantasy we'd even get to that point.

[Notwendy]

This is a difficult situation.

One thing I wonder about are the children. I assume they are young, but as kids grow up, they become aware of things probably sooner than we are aware of them.

Children learn more from observing us, the examples we set for them, than what we say to them. If those things are inconsistent, then they will question our integrity.

My kids are older now and the questions they ask about us in general are quite observant. They are also interested in my relationship with my H. How did you and Dad meet? How long did you date before you were married? My kids have been aware of issues between us even when we thought they were not.

Knowing this, I wonder how you will feel when they begin to ask questions about your current SO. Mommy, you are dating someone who is married? You left Dad for this man?

I'm not asking you because I am judging you. I'm trying to address an aspect of your pain and anxiety when you are with this man. You want to stop the pain, but emotional pain can tell us something. If you touch a hot stove, your hand hurts. This tells you something. Without that, you would leave your hand on the stove and it would burn.

Emotional pain and anxiety can be telling us that the relationship is in a way, breaking a boundary or a value that is important to us.

As parents, we don't always do things perfectly. We are human, and relationships get messy. But if we have children, they can hold us accountable and make us think about our actions. For me, the solution was to be honest, at least in the PG sense, about my actions and how I handled them. I have been honest about my own co-dependency and they have seen me struggle with how to act honorably towards my parents- mom with BPD- while trying to uphold boundaries. How I know there are things I would do differently and also things I felt I did well

How would you like the story of this relationship to be told?

[Narkiss]

If he becomes a SO who will be involved with my children, he will not be married and neither will I. He also has to seek treatment, which he told me he will.

He was the proximate cause of the separation. But it should have happened years ago. My husband is diagnosed OCPD and refuses to seek treatment. He actually rages at the children and tells anyone who will listen how is life was so much easier without them. He is intolerant and sees life as a zero sum game. when my older son was in first grade, he said that daddy loves you the best and you love us the best, which is true.

Honestly, the issue with the children is so far off, it is not helpful.

[HurtinNW]

Hello Narkiss!

It is so painful, isn't it?

I am now officially two and a half months since last and final break-up, and to be honest, I am still in a lot of pain. But it comes and goes, and I am starting to have times of relative hope and peacefulness. One of the biggest changes is in my body. My health is hugely improved. My IBS vanished. My skin is glowing, people tell me I look fantastic.

That dead, constant constriction of worry in my chest is gone. I'm not constantly anxious. For me, even during the good times that anxiety was there, waiting under the surface, because eventually I knew I could not trust his behavior. I was in so much pain during the relationship.

I got to the point you are: I knew I was going to be in pain either way. I was in pain during the relationship and I am in pain out of it.

One of my pains is realizing my ex is probably not going to change. I don't know why I keep hoping he will, but it keeps me tied to him. We've talked about being women of a certain age and accomplishment and fearing being alone. It helps to start pulling all those pieces out. What is your pain about, Narkiss? How much is his behavior? How much is your choices? Your fears? Start talking to your pain. Be gentle and curious with yourself. What does your pain tell you?

There is a sort of cleanness to the pain I am in now, when I am not screwing up and checking my ex on social media. I am identifying when the pain is telling me I am hurting myself more and not less. This pain of separation and detaching feels like a pain that will eventually end.

The relationship felt like a pain that would never stop. That is the difference for me.

If you want to detach, can you see yourself handling that pain?

[formflier]

Honestly, the issue with the children is so far off, it is not helpful.

I'm interested in your thoughts on why it is not helpful now?

Help me understand the pathway that leads to a father figure for your children that is likely as unstable as the first one.

What kind of father figure do your children deserve?

What kind of SO do you deserve?

Is that worth waiting for?

FF

[Silveron]

Please stay away from this guy.  Been married 12 years with a wife who is BPD.  You are putting yourself up for some major hurting and depression.  BPD's cannot be saved.  There is no cure.  They will use and recycle you and in the process make you feel like you are going crazy.  Living with a BPD can even be very dangerous at times.  They are unstable and don't have the mental/emotional capacity to better themselves without years of DBT.

I think you have to ask yourself is why are you searching for these kinds of men?  You just went through an ordeal with your husband, why would you jump into another relationship with someone who can only harm you in the long run?

[Cat Familiar]

In the most egregious example, he told me he was coming in, canceled for no reason, then turned up at a dinner -- with a date -- where i was at. He was shocked that I was there.

At the best -- and this is the side I mainly see -- he is witty, intelligent, caring. He listens whole-heartedly. We understand each other and can talk all night. In the last couple of months, he has been doing his best to hold things together around me. But this can also be because he is losing his job and will return home.

I think one of the reasons why I go through so much pain after I see or talk to him is that it is a mirage -- so wonderful, but I can't tell if it is real, if this is who he is, if I will even see him again after this month.   

OK, I understand this "addiction" to a pwBPD as it happened to me. Many years before I married my current husband, we got together, after knowing each other years earlier as friends, in a LDR. I had ended my marriage and I was surprised to suddenly learn that my perfect dream man was MARRIED! What the heck?

He had "neglected" to tell me that. I continued for a while in this fiasco, but then it became too much to bear and we went our separate ways.

For years, he was the "benchmark" that I compared any potential date to and they all fell short. It just irritated the hell out of me that I was so under his spell.

Out of the blue he called me one day and told me that he had left his wife and would be in my area, so we had dinner. This time I knew he was soon to be single and we had a LDR while he went through his divorce. (I'm not proud of this, but I was so smitten, I didn't want to wait.)

He got a job nearby and moved and we built a bigger house on my rural property and now we've been married 10 years. It was idyllic at the beginning until the BPD and alcohol abuse started showing up. It's been downhill since then, but having done counseling and found this site, things are slowly improving.

Obviously you're not going to get any judgmental attitude from me, since I've walked the walk, but I do have some questions for you.

What would it take to let go of this fantasy, because as you've admitted, the reality has been less than ideal?

Would you be willing to do therapy to get over this guy?

What is it about him that makes him so alluring to you, knowing his limitations?

Do you really see a future with him?

I wish I had asked myself some of these questions before I'd gotten in so deep. This is my second BPD husband and by far, he's waaay more functional and much kinder than the first. But here I am, participating here, rather than having a wonderful relationship, I'm trying to figure out how to tiptoe around this one. Is this really what you want for both your future and your children's? There are lots of nice guys out there and yet we get addicted to these BPD unfinished projects. Please really think about what you deserve and whether you want to sign up for a hell of pain.

Your guy showing up with a date after canceling on you... .and this is only the beginning of what he's capable of... .

[HurtinNW]

Narkiss, my ex didn't rage at me... .at first. I overlooked his contemptuous treatment of others because he treated me so well in the beginning. I very much would have said I wasn't worried about him treating me with rage. Well, that changed the closer we got to moving in together. I personally don't think whatever clamps this fellow is putting on his anger will hold in a more serious relationship. As you've said, you've seen him treat others in appalling ways. Sooner or later that will be you.

In fact, it already has been, as you know. Showing up with another date. Lying about his marriage. Being indifferent to your feelings. And so forth. He hasn't really devalued you yet. It sounds like he has devalued his wife, and is more than willing to cheat on her with you.

Even if you guy never rages at your or your kids, is he want you want for a father figure to them? Can you imagine what it would be like for them to have a father figure who walks in and out of their life without care? That is what happened to my kids.

I know it is hard to let go. I am having a terribly hard time with it myself. I struggle daily. What is helping me lately is giving myself permission to be angry.

I also struggle with the question if it was a mirage or real. I think it was real, but what I need to understand is the contemptuous treatment was real too. It is difficult to understand someone who is so narcissistic that their feelings are all that matters. When he loves you, it is real, but when he discards you that is real too, and neither are tied to the deeper feelings of loyalty, empathy and accountability that define true love.

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, Hurtin'.  So true.  LJ

[Cat Familiar]

I sympathize with your quandary of your heart telling you one thing and your head telling you something entirely different. As much as I tried, I could never make myself stop loving him. But I was able to find some distance in my heart from him for some years until he called me again out of the blue.

Best thing in these circumstances is to find a healthy normal guy and fall in love with him.

It is difficult to understand someone who is so narcissistic that their feelings are all that matters. When he loves you, it is real, but when he discards you that is real too, and neither are tied to the deeper feelings of loyalty, empathy and accountability that define true love.



Like what Hurtin' says, this is what you'll be dealing with if indeed you manage to wrangle him into a relationship with you.   

[Lilyroze]

 

I hesitated to write here... .as this is about you and the best for you not me.

Having said that. I am the wife in a situation very similar. I took care of him with his illnesses, his family members, the budget, children, cooking, taking care everything a man would do with house and car parts etc as he was never there etc. Either sick, hospital or working, While we lived in different states for awhile while he commuted.

We have been on the road to divorce for a couple years. We have property to sell I bought with my stock money, debt free because I worked my butt off to make it so, healthy stable kids because I did it. He wasn't there, and when he not there if you know what I mean.

We bought another house near his work, then he wanted to quit, almost got fired, wanted another job.

I have moved across country during our 18 years twice for him.  I did all the packing, moving, dealing with even his work recruiters, handling negotiations as he asked me to. I do all the financials including taxes, budgets and responsibility.

I bought the house as thought he was ill and would need care and thought he was dying with lung problems . Yes he had some with a work injury but thinks and seems fine now and has dysregulated many times, rages and went crazy. H

He probably tells people he hates me, road to divorce. What he doesn't say is all was good until he got addicted to his work IPAD given two months before home purchase, started with porn, other women, many women who thought they were the only ones. He no longer talks to them and is on others.

I am fine with divorce now seeing he wasn't really physically ill most was BPD and I was in FOG due to son, Christian etc.

He never told his friends online, gamers or gf of month. He crashed 3 cars ( 2 within 2 days of each other) is addicted to ephedrine, never talks to his son, chose the IPAD and other over us given a choice.

Has walked out, with no help when I was ill fixing my car to get it on road. I could but need to pay taxes for both homes, mortgage on one, all bills and  all while he keeps blowing money and I am  trying to keep us out of debt.  No offense to his new GF or whatever but I paid off his debt when married, bought the houses and now having in mine and not doing a darn thing to help sell.

I told him need to fix houses to sell or move to the debt free one so I can do life. He says he gave me years already.

No... .I did all, paid over 50,000 of his debts when got married, paid down houses, and bought one with stocks outright ( needs fixing). To fix houses, help me sell one and fix my car then I will be out of your way. This is after 18 years of marriage,and he has turned me black to justify.

To the woman that wants him, I will be darned if I get divorced even though he is threatening me daily to go to court house... .Until I get my car and a few things done. I will not lose my houses, equity or my kids future for one or many he met online. He is being pressured now by GF or someone my lawyer says wants done in days. Hello it takes awhile.

I have no problem giving him to her, I can wrap him in a bow and deliver. But I want my things done first. He wants to leave me with no insurance and I have had medical problems, ignore his son. In 2 years has done nothing to help move, fix houses or my things. Blown money and rages to all it is me.

He killed any love, respect or FOG I had to think I needed to take care of him biblically or spouse wise or do the right for my son. I made excuses for his behaviour. He has let my BD, my sons, his step son, mothers day and Christmas come and go with nothing. with excuse I don't let him spend. No like an accountant try to show him all responsibilities and bills, what needs done still but he has money to blow on his games, tools we already have, and his whatever now.

I need a man, a good man, one who will be responsible, loving, and appreciate all I have done. By the way when he worked in other state I cooked and baked for him 3 meals to send up every week, cut his hair, and washed his clothes for week. I don't want a medal, and will be relieved someone else can do now.

He didn't want to be intimate which is fine, we didn't have that relationship for along time I was more friend and caretaker... .but he never tried most of marriage. Now I am only putting this here but I run, keep in shape and use be in pageants and model when  younger. I was MRS... .for our state as my Lions club entered me to represent them as their International President ( I am not conceited but showing that I tried to stay in shape for him). He wants to leave quick now to move in with someone or as he keeps running around saying now... .touch someone... .LOL

He has threatened to kill me, the neighbors dog and fight the neighbor,( and he doesn't live here) people at work his job is on a string.

So if thought I would tell you be-careful and protect you.

Many blessings,