Do you consider the possibility that you were 'toxic' for them also?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I will just present my personal thought flow from my recent therapy appointment. During this session I actually realized that through my codependency I actually disabled her to fight BPD in an appropriate way. It sounds a bit harsh but let me explain this observation.

For example, I (unconsciously) took over too much of BPD weight on my back, I consider it as my mission/task to help her fighting this. I even overtook some responsibilities that were definitely dedicated to her in order to handle BPD. By not setting firm boundaries, accepting and silently confirming bad behavior and playing this game in 'victim' mode I started to be her 'BPD crutch'. I assume this invoked (from her side) too big emotional dependency to me and loosing control over self and invoked her disregulation. To make it shor, in some aspects of our relationship, I overtook the tasks that she had to do in order to achieve higher level of emotional maturity. 

Do you consider this possibility in your case?

How does that impact your detachment process?

 

To me it is mixed feeling with lot of 'what ifs'. For example, during these 6 months while I am in therapy and studying about BPD and psychology in general I learned a lot about myself. I recognized different behavioral patterns in myself (bad and good ones).  

The major what if now is wondering 'if it would be a different now when I know what I know'

Reasons for YES:

- Even my T confirms that I did a very good job in this short time regarding personal insight and recognizing her bad patterns but what is even more important my codependency/narcissistic traits. The traits that I really wasn't aware of before. Or even considered them as a positive aspect of my personality and mixed it with altruism.

She says that she is 100% positive that it would be different, but the main question is would it be enough? Enough from both sides, not just me.

- The things that I now recognize is the fact that she is aware of her problem, not completely sure in which scope but she is aware. She even mentioned BPD once to me, but I admit that I didn't even know what that is nor did I make any detailed research about it considering the fact that she said that the main reason for her problems were depression and anxiety. She even goes to the therapy in last two years (with breaks).

Reasons for NO (to be honest my gut tells my that they are much stronger and this is a reason why am I on this board ):

- I believe it would be very hard to reset our previous feelings, way of communication and expectations. We were only 4 months in a relationship before I left and it is not huge amount of time but considering the fact that we were constantly together we developed really strong bond.

- I am worried about her breaks in therapy. I believe she starts the therapy only when she feels very bad (and that is in relationships). Also, I don't think she did a lot of deep insight considering FOO issues, her therapy is mostly CBT based and teaches her how to handle BPD impulsive traits and emotional volcano. For a higher level of recovery it is mandatory to address psychoanalytical scope of therapy.

- I am pretty sure that I can establish a more mature relationship with more reciprocity. I am not sure if she is. And I am too careful now.

[blackbirdsong]

I will just present my personal thought flow from my recent therapy appointment. During this session I actually realized that through my codependency I actually disabled her to fight BPD in an appropriate way. It sounds a bit harsh but let me explain this observation.

For example, I (unconsciously) took over too much of BPD weight on my back, I consider it as my mission/task to help her fighting this. I even overtook some responsibilities that were definitely dedicated to her in order to handle BPD. By not setting firm boundaries, accepting and silently confirming bad behavior and playing this game in 'victim' mode I started to be her 'BPD crutch'. I assume this invoked (from her side) too big emotional dependency to me and loosing control over self and invoked her disregulation. To make it shor, in some aspects of our relationship, I overtook the tasks that she had to do in order to achieve higher level of emotional maturity. 

Do you consider this possibility in your case?

How does that impact your detachment process?

 

To me it is mixed feeling with lot of 'what ifs'. For example, during these 6 months while I am in therapy and studying about BPD and psychology in general I learned a lot about myself. I recognized different behavioral patterns in myself (bad and good ones).  

The major what if now is wondering 'if it would be a different now when I know what I know'

Reasons for YES:

- Even my T confirms that I did a very good job in this short time regarding personal insight and recognizing her bad patterns but what is even more important my codependency/narcissistic traits. The traits that I really wasn't aware of before. Or even considered them as a positive aspect of my personality and mixed it with altruism.

She says that she is 100% positive that it would be different, but the main question is would it be enough? Enough from both sides, not just me.

- The things that I now recognize is the fact that she is aware of her problem, not completely sure in which scope but she is aware. She even mentioned BPD once to me, but I admit that I didn't even know what that is nor did I make any detailed research about it considering the fact that she said that the main reason for her problems were depression and anxiety. She even goes to the therapy in last two years (with breaks).

Reasons for NO (to be honest my gut tells my that they are much stronger and this is a reason why am I on this board ):

- I believe it would be very hard to reset our previous feelings, way of communication and expectations. We were only 4 months in a relationship before I left and it is not huge amount of time but considering the fact that we were constantly together we developed really strong bond.

- I am worried about her breaks in therapy. I believe she starts the therapy only when she feels very bad (and that is in relationships). Also, I don't think she did a lot of deep insight considering FOO issues, her therapy is mostly CBT based and teaches her how to handle BPD impulsive traits and emotional volcano. For a higher level of recovery it is mandatory to address psychoanalytical scope of therapy.

- I am pretty sure that I can establish a more mature relationship with more reciprocity. I am not sure if she is. And I am too careful now.

[once removed]

great thread, blackbirdsong.

it takes a lot of hard work, detachment, and time, to look at your relationship self critically like this, and you should be commended. it sounds like you feel you enabled her by overtaking those tasks?

i guess i dont really see a lot of examples of enabling, per se, on my mind end. i did support her in going back to school. i wasnt involved beyond that, there wasnt really a way for me to be.

was i toxic for her? ill put it this way:

frequent threats of a breakup as a means of changing her behavior - directed at someone with intense abandonment issues. sounds pretty toxic to me.

i invalidated often.

invalidating could go from more subtle forms, to actually calling her psychotic, crazy, nuts, etc - someone who is actually diagnosed with a mental illness (bipolar). toxic, and cruel.

and yet i had the best of intentions  . would things have been different? yes, im sure they would have been.

i give myself a decent grade on maintaining my boundaries throughout the relationship. the problem is i let a few slip, and when you set boundaries later into the relationship, there tends to be blowback, and there was.

i would have taken the nastiness even less personally. i didnt take it very personally because she had told me early on in the relationship that this occurred when she was out of her mind, and that she meant none of it - i believed her, and of course it wasnt that simple. as the relationship continued, sometimes shed insist that she really did mean it, and id continue to dismiss it, assuming she was still out of her mind. sometimes when shed calm down and apologize, id want to discuss the things she said, which triggered shame. gridlock - reaching solutions was rare.

i struggled to stay out of circular arguments. she even advised me early on in the relationship to do so. the belief "if you say it louder you will be heard" from the ten beliefs that can keep us stuck, was a huge one for me. i would fare much better at that now.


one of the most challenging aspects of our relationship was her jealousy and accusations. with all the reading ive done, i would still struggle to validate, let alone tolerate this. its incredibly unattractive to me. i dont think this would have changed. i dont think my reactions to it would have changed.

the clingyness was overwhelming. as an introvert - hell, as a human, i cherish and need my alone time and need a partner who respects that without taking it personally. she also disrespected my privacy frequently. i dont think this would have changed. i dont think my reactions to it would have changed.

the fact that she cheated means the risk was always there - i dont think this would have changed. i wasnt aware of that risk during the relationship. if i had been, things would only have changed for the worse on my end.


those are valid enough reasons for me to conclude it was best that the relationship ended. we can always have done things differently in every relationship - thats what relationships teach us, and they are important lessons. if we had been the people that we would go on to become, in said relationship, maybe the attraction and draw never would have been there in the first place. i dont mean to suggest we, or our future partners, will be perfect when we meet. i do know the lessons ive learned make me a better, more emotionally available partner, a better communicator, more open to validating my partner, owning my flaws/mistakes and with a clearer vision of what it takes to actually solve problems. also, stronger boundaries, more confidence, a clear idea of who i am and what my limits are as well as accepting others for who they are - for example, if someone frequently accuses me of cheating, odds are thats on them and their insecurity. invaluable lessons that im grateful for.

maybe most importantly, i think i have it in me now to walk away from an unhealthy relationship.

[thrownforaloop]

Do you consider this possibility in your case?

How does that impact your detachment process?

Oh gosh, I agree, this is a great thread. Such a tough question. This one strikes me pretty hard. The first time that I left my ex, for a weekend to get some time to think, I came back and we had a long discussion. She told me that we were a bad couple, based on my willingness to always being taken advantage of by her. So yes, I think I did play a bad part in enabling her to stay stunted.

She couldn't drive, so whenever she needed to be anywhere, I would drop what I was doing and rush to take her. I went along with whatever plans she wanted to do. We didn't compromise, it was just always her decision. I even let her invade my privacy--I would try to journal when I was very upset and she would grab my notebook from my hand and read it against my wishes. Then in the end, when she started being really close friends with a new man, which I was completely uncomfortable with, I let her continue on, because I didn't want to be "controlling".  And so, all those lack of boundaries really added up to allowing her to be the way she was... .from a complete lack of respect for my feelings to cheating.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Great thread indeed!

I too have learned a great deal in regards to a relationship with my XBPDg/f.  Considering I'd never heard of the disorder prior to this site, I'd say that the first year would have been different in how I responded to many things that concerned me, and I know that would have been much better for my g/f at that time.

I loved my person, and still do, I know that she loved me, as best she could.  Is there someone out there who would be able to sustain a decent relationship?  That is the question.

I could no longer... .1) go through life without emotional support, it is important to me and a necessary part of being with me  2) be a secret and have no dealings with her "other life", ie family, friends, X girlfriends

3) handle not hearing from her for days on end, when I asked about how/where she was? I got the silent treatment for weeks. I came to understand this is just "her" but still... .4) walk on eggshells about things that were very important to me.  I gave it my all for 5 1/2 years and the straw that broke this camel's back?  A sustained silent treatment over me asking why I could never be involved with her friends and their activities.  That was three months ago.

I no longer tear up, I can look at photos with almost indifference and that hurts, I'd never want anyone to feel numb or indifferent in a relationship. 

I realize that parts of my personality both attracted her, and scared her.  I was always responsible for issues that were negative and the "I'm sorry(s)", commitment was never going to happen because commitment and responsibility were just not possible. It's tough to always be the bad guy regardless of how well you do detachment.  It sucks to be in a one way relationship and some, not all, BPD relationships are pretty one sided. 

This site talks about recycles and many of us do get back in to the relationships for whatever reason at that time.  No one can tell you when or how to disconnect.  It is a "knowing" deep inside that enough is enough, you are not done until YOU are done.

Peace

CiF

[Icanteven]

One of the last times we spoke my wife said that our marriage was "unhealthy" for her.  That could be taken a number of ways, and is almost certainly something she has discovered in her own therapy, in the same way that my T has told me in no uncertain terms that our marriage was unhealthy for me.  Ways I could be toxic:

Enabling - There is zero question I enabled my wife and created learned helplessness around her mental illnesses.

Boundaries - I had poor boundaries, and enforcing boundaries is, without a doubt in my mind, the reason my wife and I are estranged.

Validation - I did an awful job sometimes of validating my wife's feelings.  In my defense, I had no training in validation, and I was being asked to validate the inane and insane and unreasonable, but that doesn't change my poor validation skills.

Arguing - I am the most analytical person I know, so when we'd get into arguments I would carve everything she said apart and bring the action.  This was, obviously, incredibly self-defeating and must have made her feel awful given her poor executive function and underlying diseases.

I wish I wish I wish I could have done so certain things differently, but on the other hand, I put up with so much unnecessary drama, crazy-making behavior, lying and manipulation, financial and emotional abuse, and out and out abandonment - before she physically left - from my wife that I'm amazed we lasted as long as we did.  Check that, I'm not amazed, as I became co-dependent and her sole caretaker over the years, to the point that I became isolated from friends and family trying to support my spouse while hiding her illness.

I bear plenty of blame for things I could have done better.  That doesn't mean my wife didn't generate most of the toxicity that led to the downfall of her relationship.

[jhkbuzz]

One of the last times we spoke my wife said that our marriage was "unhealthy" for her.  That could be taken a number of ways, and is almost certainly something she has discovered in her own therapy, in the same way that my T has told me in no uncertain terms that our marriage was unhealthy for me.  Ways I could be toxic:

Enabling - There is zero question I enabled my wife and created learned helplessness around her mental illnesses.

Boundaries - I had poor boundaries, and enforcing boundaries is, without a doubt in my mind, the reason my wife and I are estranged.

Validation - I did an awful job sometimes of validating my wife's feelings.  In my defense, I had no training in validation, and I was being asked to validate the inane and insane and unreasonable, but that doesn't change my poor validation skills.

Arguing - I am the most analytical person I know, so when we'd get into arguments I would carve everything she said apart and bring the action.  This was, obviously, incredibly self-defeating and must have made her feel awful given her poor executive function and underlying diseases.

I wish I wish I wish I could have done so certain things differently, but on the other hand, I put up with so much unnecessary drama, crazy-making behavior, lying and manipulation, financial and emotional abuse, and out and out abandonment - before she physically left - from my wife that I'm amazed we lasted as long as we did.  Check that, I'm not amazed, as I became co-dependent and her sole caretaker over the years, to the point that I became isolated from friends and family trying to support my spouse while hiding her illness.

I bear plenty of blame for things I could have done better.  That doesn't mean my wife didn't generate most of the toxicity that led to the downfall of her relationship.

Exactly that ^. This is the one and only r/s that I ever ended up "caretaking?" someone, and I will never, ever do it again.

[BorisAcusio]

Great insights, blackbirdsong.

[MapleBob]

Do you consider this possibility in your case?

How does that impact your detachment process?

Awesome thread, really great stuff. I think about this ALL. THE. TIME.

My first thought is that, sure, a relationship takes two people and the relationship exists in whatever state it is in based on the complex interactions of those two people - including their respective baggage, hurts, needs, and desires. There are two different perspectives ALWAYS - you just hope that they're similar most of the time, and that common ground can be found when they are not. So, ultimately, we're all equally responsible for the care and potential downfall of that negotiation.

I'll get to thinking about it, and tracing the chains of causality ("Oh, if I hadn't done this then she wouldn't have done that, but I wouldn't have done that if I didn't feel like this because she said that one thing after that one day... ." and the conclusion is always the same:

She left and I didn't. She left and I didn't.

I can't quote or reference the article, but I've read on more than one occasion that successful marriages don't usually have any fewer irreconcilable differences than unsuccessful marriages. It really comes down to commitment and having the skills to reconcile those differences. I don't think that my ex - BPD or not - had those skills. I have some of them, and would have learned more, but she was not capable of meeting me there. I no longer believe that I made her leave. She chose to leave. I don't need to question the validity of that decision, or feel bad about it. We gave it a shot and it didn't work for her - and she didn't work for it!

It might sound like I'm avoiding responsibility for my part, but I'm at the point where I'm tired of looking at my part, and I feel like I've covered that with her and that I've offered change/restitution/accountability so many times and in so many ways to her! "My part" wasn't enough to save our relationship, and I'm angry and sad that "her part" wasn't something that she was willing to do.

[HurtinNW]

What MapbleBob said. I want to get to that point of healing.

What I did that was "toxic" for him (and it is important to note that this wouldn't have been toxic for someone else):

I wanted commitment, living together, shared responsibility.

I wanted to be able to discuss problems.

I wanted us both to be able to take responsibility for our own issues.

I wanted a partner I could trust.

I wanted someone who loved me, saw me, respected me, and treated me with tenderness.

I know that some of my issues played a role, for sure. I have PTSD which was badly triggered by my ex and his rages. I didn't always handle things well. But bottom line is what I wanted... .a healthy, loving, warm relationship... .that was by nature toxic to him.

It's helping my detachment to realize that what I wanted he was not going to give. I can take responsibility for my side of street, and I have been cleaning it up big time. Nobody is perfect. But I am starting to feel done with taking the blame for everything bad about the relationship. I am just feeling done with all the ugly and negative and the poison that leaks from my ex, more and more over time.

Toxic? Yes, we both were for each other, in different ways. Healthy and good? I think I can have that, with someone else.

[AwakenedOne]

Having faults and making mistakes doesn't equal me being toxic to my uBPDxw is the way I see it. Of course her disordered mind didnt see it that way.Often here it seems members ask or even torture themselves regarding whether if they had of done things differently the relationship wouldn't of ended. It is often stated to ":)on't take what the pwBPD did or what horrible things they said to you as personal". Doesn't that mean you didn't cause or deserve this? Worst thing I did to her was pis her off from time to time. It wasn't intentional though.

[freemanstrut]

Any partner will be toxic for my ex.

I'm just a guy who did the best he could.

I think I'm in good company.

[teapay]

There are some people in this world who are hyperallergic to things like pollen, bee stings, different foods and various chemical substances.  Some are very allergic to pet dander.  When they are exposed to these things they get very sick.  They can’t take it and have to stay away from these things as much as they can for sake of their health.

BPDs are like this, but they have a kind of emotional hyperallergy to life, but especially to relationships and intimate relationships.  Getting into a relationship with a BPD is like giving a cat to someone with is extremely allergic the cats.  There may be no reason why they don’t deserve a cat.  They may absolute love cute cats and really, really want to have a cat.  But the cat is still going to make them sick, because the cat is an environmental factor to which they are very allergic.  All the relationship tools prescribed for managing a relationship with a BPD are kind of like the things folks would live with hyperallergic people do.  Dust and vaccuum the house constantly, get air purifiers, constantly wash things, isolate the cat to particular rooms and throw the cat outside if the person starts reacting to it.  That is, do things that help the hyperallergic person keep the dang cat, but suffer from it less.  The ultimate solution for the person’s health, though, is to get rid of the cat all together and don’t give a hyperallergic person a cat in the first place because it will make them sick. 

Many BPD have learned to stay out of relationships and do much better when they are in therapy and not in relationships and all those added complications that relationships bring.  This is just like hyperallergic people who learn to stay away from the things that make them sick.

[balletomane]

When my ex told me he'd replaced me with his flatmate, he said, "We aren't good for each other." It was the plain sensible truth, but at the time I couldn't accept it, because it was a bit galling to hear this from a man who was breezily admitting to cheating on me as though it wasn't an issue and the second before had just said some incredibly unfair, selfish, and hurtful things. I had also tried so hard to make things work out, and I had gone the extra mile for him in a way he never had for me. But he was right about me not being good for him. For a long time I continued to avoid facing it, because he had abused me, and part of the abuse had been projecting his behaviour onto me and blaming me for everything to the point where I thought I was this terrible person. He blamed me even to the point of accusing me of thinking the wrong thoughts (?), and it had got to the point where I was apologising in floods of tears for thoughts I'd never had in my life, just to make the viciousness stop. So it was difficult to accept my personal responsibility at the same time as I was struggling to come to terms with the aftermath of gaslighting and self-blame. But I'm at the point where I can do it now.

One example: I knew that he was always kinder to me if I were physically injured or unwell, so I would exaggerate any aches or pains and if he was on the brink of a rage I would sometimes even fabricate an illness. It worked sometimes. If he were in a good mood, he would immediately become attentive and loving, and if he were in a brink-of-a-rage mood he would go from being jeering and dismissive to merely being cold. For a long time I justified this as me trying to protect myself from my ex's difficulties. It's true, it was a self-protection mechanism... .but that doesn't make it OK. There are other people who wouldn't have resorted to doing that, and maybe one of them would be a better partner for my ex. Accepting that this wasn't helpful behaviour from me doesn't mean that I'm colluding in my own abuse, because his behaviour to me remains objectively cruel no matter what my response was like, but it does mean that I'm able to see how I reinforced his own unhelpful thinking patterns. After all, he manipulates to get what he wants, because he doesn't know how or doesn't feel able to ask for it openly. Here was I doing the same.

[flourdust]

There are some people in this world who are hyperallergic to things like pollen, bee stings, different foods and various chemical substances.  Some are very allergic to pet dander.  When they are exposed to these things they get very sick.  They can’t take it and have to stay away from these things as much as they can for sake of their health.

BPDs are like this, but they have a kind of emotional hyperallergy to life, but especially to relationships and intimate relationships.  Getting into a relationship with a BPD is like giving a cat to someone with is extremely allergic the cats.  There may be no reason why they don’t deserve a cat.  They may absolute love cute cats and really, really want to have a cat.  But the cat is still going to make them sick, because the cat is an environmental factor to which they are very allergic.  All the relationship tools prescribed for managing a relationship with a BPD are kind of like the things folks would live with hyperallergic people do.  Dust and vaccuum the house constantly, get air purifiers, constantly wash things, isolate the cat to particular rooms and throw the cat outside if the person starts reacting to it.  That is, do things that help the hyperallergic person keep the dang cat, but suffer from it less.  The ultimate solution for the person’s health, though, is to get rid of the cat all together and don’t give a hyperallergic person a cat in the first place because it will make them sick. 

Many BPD have learned to stay out of relationships and do much better when they are in therapy and not in relationships and all those added complications that relationships bring.  This is just like hyperallergic people who learn to stay away from the things that make them sick.

Thanks for writing this. That analogy really works for me.

[jhkbuzz]

When my ex told me he'd replaced me with his flatmate, he said, "We aren't good for each other." It was the plain sensible truth, but at the time I couldn't accept it, because it was a bit galling to hear this from a man who was breezily admitting to cheating on me as though it wasn't an issue and the second before had just said some incredibly unfair, selfish, and hurtful things. I had also tried so hard to make things work out, and I had gone the extra mile for him in a way he never had for me. But he was right about me not being good for him. For a long time I continued to avoid facing it, because he had abused me, and part of the abuse had been projecting his behaviour onto me and blaming me for everything to the point where I thought I was this terrible person. He blamed me even to the point of accusing me of thinking the wrong thoughts (?), and it had got to the point where I was apologising in floods of tears for thoughts I'd never had in my life, just to make the viciousness stop. So it was difficult to accept my personal responsibility at the same time as I was struggling to come to terms with the aftermath of gaslighting and self-blame. But I'm at the point where I can do it now.

One example: I knew that he was always kinder to me if I were physically injured or unwell, so I would exaggerate any aches or pains and if he was on the brink of a rage I would sometimes even fabricate an illness. It worked sometimes. If he were in a good mood, he would immediately become attentive and loving, and if he were in a brink-of-a-rage mood he would go from being jeering and dismissive to merely being cold. For a long time I justified this as me trying to protect myself from my ex's difficulties. It's true, it was a self-protection mechanism... .but that doesn't make it OK. There are other people who wouldn't have resorted to doing that, and maybe one of them would be a better partner for my ex. Accepting that this wasn't helpful behaviour from me doesn't mean that I'm colluding in my own abuse, because his behaviour to me remains objectively cruel no matter what my response was like, but it does mean that I'm able to see how I reinforced his own unhelpful thinking patterns. After all, he manipulates to get what he wants, because he doesn't know how or doesn't feel able to ask for it openly. Here was I doing the same.

There's something about this post that feels "off" to me. I'm not sure what it is. Over responsibility, maybe? Not being kind to yourself? Trying to survive in the face of abuse is difficult, and we all do what we have to do.

I understand that you have work to do now (in terms of figuring out how you ended up the the r/s and why you stayed) - I do, too. But your strategies to avoid being abused are not the same as his dysregulated, abusive actions.

[balletomane]

There's something about this post that feels "off" to me. I'm not sure what it is. Over responsibility, maybe? Not being kind to yourself? Trying to survive in the face of abuse is difficult, and we all do what we have to do.

I understand that you have work to do now (in terms of figuring out how you ended up the the r/s and why you stayed) - I do, too. But your strategies to avoid being abused are not the same as his dysregulated, abusive actions.

I see what you mean. I didn't mean to say his behaviour and mine were exactly the same - he was an abuser, and I was not. I was also never cruel. Looking back on our interactions (and as his worst outbursts took place over instant messenger when I was away from him, so there is a written record) I can honestly say that I didn't even say anything unkind in response to the really awful stuff. But I still wasn't a helpful person for him to have around.

You are right that I do have a tendency to be overly self-critical, which I have to watch out for, but as I'm not feeling guilty over my inability to meet his needs and to set the necessary boundaries for a healthy relationship - I think the vast majority of people would have difficulty with that with him - I don't think I'm being too hard on myself here.

[once removed]

the trick here is looking at whether we were "toxic" from our exes perspective, which is, admittedly no easy task.

i dont consider myself a "toxic" person in general (i have my flaws, and unhealthy traits, but i think in general i am a neutral to positive influence in the lives of others, and i certainly know i had the best of intentions with my ex). but from her perspective, and in her experience, i can see where my behavior was toxic.

and then theres the behavior that, distorted perspective or not, i have no excuses for.

[HurtinNW]

the trick here is looking at whether we were "toxic" from our exes perspective, which is, admittedly no easy task.

i dont consider myself a "toxic" person in general (i have my flaws, and unhealthy traits, but i think in general i am a neutral to positive influence in the lives of others, and i certainly know i had the best of intentions with my ex). but from her perspective, and in her experience, i can see where my behavior was toxic.

and then theres the behavior that, distorted perspective or not, i have no excuses for.

This is a very helpful perspective for me, thank you.

From my ex's perspective I was very toxic. For him I was demanding, needy, irrational, crazy. There were all sorts of things he didn't understand and overwhelmed him, and so he perceived me as too difficult. His rage, in his mind, was a perfectly reasonable response to my behavior.

What has been growth for me is realizing another man wouldn't see any of those traits or wants as overly demanding, crazy, or selfish. To give just one example: I wanted to move in together and be committed earlier than he did. His perception was I was too demanding. Another guy might have rushed to pack his stuff. Or been clear about his own time schedule. Instead ex reacted that I must be selfish to want something he didn't want, and that led to four years of foot dragging, nasty resentments and hostility on his part.

For the most part I think I am a non-toxic person. Most people I know love me, and see me as a positive person in their lives.

There were times I did have toxic behavior in our relationship, and I think I picked up some fleas, too. I feel this was largely due to his abuse triggering my PTSD, but that doesn't matter as much as owning it. One toxic behavior I had was trying to "talk" him into caring about my feelings. This turned into arguments where I crossed the line into badgering. Other times I didn't handle my own reactions well, and fell apart into crying, and sobbing at his abuse, instead of getting distance. That was toxic for both of us. And a third toxic thing I did was hope that he would feel guilt over his behavior and change. That led me to compromise my own boundaries over and over again. It's not fair to take someone back, supposedly have a clean start, and continue to resent them for being who they are, hoping they will change. That's what I did many times. I didn't accept who he was. He is someone who cannot accept personal responsibility and own his mistakes. I never accepted that and yet I wanted to be in relationship with him, and that was a set up on my part.

[steelwork]

I know I was particularly toxic to him. A lot of it had to do with circumstances. I was not fully available for the relationship he wanted, and yet I was not emotionally capable of letting go. He needed me to either commit fully to him or do the breaking up. This is not to say it was my responsibility to send him away, or to worry about his needs over my own. The way he framed it at the end made it seem like I'd held him hostage, which is ridiculous. But I know the situation was toxic for him as well as for me. It was inherently a toxic situation, and given his particular needs (his abandonment fears), I think it was especially painful for him. I hate that our relationship caused him that pain--though I don't blame myself in the way I did, say, a year ago.

My replacement did not come with that baggage. I have to conclude: at least on that score, she is less toxic for him. I can't know whether she'll end up triggering him in other ways. I suspect not to the extent that I would have, further down the road. He requires a level of stability I could not have given him.

AMENDMENT:

I'm actually pretty sure she'll trigger him, eventually, based on what I know of him. I think anyone would. But he was always uncomfortable with my (as he put it) "bohemian" ways.

[Herodias]

Any partner will be toxic for my ex.

I'm just a guy who did the best he could.

I think I'm in good company.

I agree... .I am responsible for my own issues. Did they cause the problem with the marriage... .I don't think so. Did I contribute, sure. He was so over the top there wasn't anything more I could do. Did I handle things wrong? Maybe- he would say so.  But, if I disagreed or put up boundaries, it just got worse. They worked on us to make us think it was our fault... .I am not going to continue to feel that way. I did for too long. I am now dealing with my issues that caused me to be with him in the first place. Any partner of his will have their lessons to learn and I see now, it is not that someone is "better" than me at handling him... .it's just that they have their own lessons to learn in their lives. His own parents can't handle him and see that they have lost even more of the influence that thought they had. As I see it, he wouldn't be like he is if they had any influence on him at all.

[hergestridge]

For me the enabling was what made our relationship possible. The most obvious "enabling" that I did was to side with her in fights against people. I truly believed that all the teachers, co-workers, bosses and relatives were as bad and rotten as she said. It was like drinking with an alcoholic.

Once I dared to disagree with her our relationship was f*cked basically.

We were together for 20 years. After a couple of weeks she raged for the first time and I was too afraid to leave her. It was like that for 20 years. All other people were a**holes and I was the only one she could trust not to get hurt like all the other crybabies.

But then again it's a personality disorder. Had I left her she would have found someone who didn't mind the abuse. There are always those people.