I've reached out to the biblical counselor about emotions

[formflier]

We've got about 2 hours of talk time and some writing back and forth in trying to sort out how we are going to do this Sunday morning (organizationally). (I think it should take about 15 minutes, tops)

The discussions keep falling apart (IMO) as she starts talking about my thoughts and emotions.  Basically, standard BPDish drivel about putting someone in corner and trying to get them to defend thoughts and emotions they don't have.

She doesn't see it as a boundary violation but as her "doing her job".

She said that "I need to examine the log in my own eye", and I said "Exactly, yes, wonderful example"

The Bible doesn't talk about telling people about the log in their eye, it directs you to look at your own.

In that sense, you should examine your own thoughts and emotions, vice someone elses.

I proposed that before she can "tell" me about my emotions

1.  Pray

2.  Invite me to "look at my own log"

3.  Wait for my invitation to share her feelings on my emotions.

Which sort of matches up with the biblical version of look at your own log first.

Seeing herself backed in corner she disavowed that as being her idea.

I tried to keep from laughing during this exchange, tried to stay neutral.

FF

[HurtinNW]

I don't like the mandate she has to pray before talking about your feelings. I think that is implying that God will give her an answer that FF likes and not what she wants. It's kind of like saying, "I know once you pray God will tell you that you are full of crap."

I also don't think she should have to wait for your invitation to share her thoughts. That's not what a healthy relationship involves, and it is disempowering. What if you never ask? A good leader doesn't tell people they can't share unless invited.

I like getting the MC involved in helping her move away from accusation ("I know WHAT you are feeling and thinking" into naming what is really going on with her. What are the fears under the accusations?

[formflier]

She can ask if she can share her observations or opinions about my thoughts.

Here is an example of why this matters and leadership.

I have been very intentional the last couple days asking kids about what they think and feel about subjects.  They all say "I don't know"

The appear to me to be afraid to "take a stand" without first knowing what Mommy thinks about this, even if the question is about their feelings.

If kids offer feelings or thoughts they will often be told not to think or feel that way.

FF

[formflier]

Below is the response from me reaching out the the biblical counselor.

Folks I believe you have each gotten into blaming the other person again. Please focus on what you need to fix in yourself and fix it. Here is the bottom line:  Your goal is to please God and respond righteously. The reason you don’t is because of idolatry. When your goal is to love God, ff will function as the loving servant leader providing for and directing the home. ffw will function as the submissive, respectful helper. Your communication will be focused on being honest, keeping currently, attacking the problem not the person, and acting instead of reacting. You folks know the truth



I would encourage you to stop talking about the other persons responses for a while and trying to get the other person to see your point of view.



While you are silent listen to this sermon over and over until you understand every word

link to sermon was inserted here



Be prepared to tell me on Monday how you love God and your spouse because you dealt with your own heart.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have been very intentional the last couple days asking kids about what they think and feel about subjects.  They all say "I don't know"

The appear to me to be afraid to "take a stand" without first knowing what Mommy thinks about this... .even if the question is about their feelings.

If kids offer feelings or thoughts they will often be told not to think or feel that way.

That is quite a significant issue.  Pretty sad.  Like everyone has been bullied into enmeshment of sharing her reality of her feelings.

So I recall you were working on her not chatting to her family in a way that was negative towards your marriage.  (I forget how this was phrased). This seems to sort of tie in with that in some way.  Is the family bashing stuff with your wife down?  Is she separated from them in ways that were harmful to you guys?  

[Sunfl0wer]

This has me a bit curious.

If you are to be a leader, and her submissive, but neither of you are to be pointing to logs.

How are you to point out and lead when she is pointing at your log?  How do you redirect without pointing out her fault? 

Did that come out clear?

What is best action to take when she is pointing at your log? 

(It seems telling MC is actually you pointing out her log, depends on how phrased I suppose)

[formflier]

What is best action to take when she is pointing at your log?  

(It seems telling MC is actually you pointing out her log, depends on how phrased I suppose)

Yes, exactly.

The guidance I am looking for is what are my expectations, what EXACTLY is it helpful for me to do when we are having a meeting about how to organize Sunday morning so we get to church on time.

We have all agreed it is my job to lead and organize.  Things are going along fine and FFw introduces the "tangent" or "rabbit trail" of you think xyz.  I try to assure FFw that her thoughts on that or any other issue are important and want to set aside time after we handle our current issue, to focus exclusively on that, but for now, we are limiting our focus to Sunday morning and becoming "one flesh" about how we will handle that.

Yes, we really do have about 2 hours of conversation and some extensive writing back and forth invested in this.

This morning she said, finally.

I think we are together on how to handle Sunday morning, BUT, (start BPD weirdness)

FF calls this "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"

We could have stayed at "we agree" and left the rest out.  That would have been my choice.  

So, when she hijacks or makes the initial "hey, there is a log in your eye" what do I do?  

Excellent question to pose to MC.  Right now I'll be listening to sermon and completing rest of homework.

We also know that the real answer is that there is no right answer.  When "they" become unreasonable, stop dealing with them.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

We also know that the real answer is that there is no right answer.  When "they" become unreasonable, stop dealing with them.

(I recall vividly being in this situation with ex.  We ended up in a disagreement about the regular disagreement, then disagreeing on how to disagree, and it just got deeper and deeper, continuing)

Suggestions tossing around, just tossing ideas here... .

Our MC had us write a list of rules for engaging in conversations.

One time I started our meetings by writing on a paper the topic.  If things got off topic, then one can simply state:  The topic for this meeting is xyz, would you like that thought to be recorded for a future topic discussion?  Let's move back to original topic now.

We allowed things to diverge off one branch of original topic, then back on track, but if it diverged off a branch topic, then another branch off that, we were way off course.  As topics were changing, branching, i kept track on our meeting minutes sheet and actually drew a branch to help orient us on what was occurring and where we were at and to help focus that goal was to proceed down branch back to topic.

Both of us could refer to the rules, but that actually cause more issue as each of us focused on logs!

Ok, I admit, even explaining this makes me seem quite nutty.  I suppose though I was desperate for logical solutions to irrational crap disturbing progress.

My point in expressing this:

Is there a way for you to create a meeting format, and simply redirect towards the desired behavior? 

So instead of: ffW, please do not tell me how I feel.

Try: Let's stay the course with this format.  (Blame it on the format)

OR

How about instead of... .

FF:  I don't want to hear what you think my feelings are, just ask, Let's talk about this topic when you are not making assumptions.

Try... .

FF:  It appears I am having trouble leading this meeting.  Let's take a three minute break to pray quietly to God and request what we need to be more conductive here for OURSELVES, return focusing on only what we ourselves can contribute positively.

After the prayer, maybe we can state what we will do better at... .  Maybe not.

Maybe something like that will give you a time out, without saying she is a problem, but blaming your leadership skills, then hoping you two can return having a less "blaming spirit"?

Does any of that make sense?

[formflier]

I have tried these formats before and she has "bucked them off"

"No, I'm not changing the subject, I have a right to express my opinions"  (would be a typical response to "let's get back on track"

Let's get back on track again

"You just don't want to talk about because you are mad that I brought it up"

FF exits.

I am totally with you on a logical response to an illogical situation.  That is what I will be doing.

It is in her court how to respond to that.

I will also have time for "feelings" and "illogic".  I'm not banning them. 

Sigh

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh, eh, I hear what you are saying.

I tried to see if I could present a strategy for effective leadership:

I found this great handout for dealing with issues in small group dynamics.

(Maybe helpful for another as it really looks excellent even though deals with group setting)

www.dyingmatters.org/sites/default/files/user/documents/Resources/ACP%20for%20volunteers/M4%20Handout%20Sec%205.pdf

Lol!  Yikes! Nothing actually seems to apply that hasn't been tried.

Seems like the only options on this list are... .

-You attempt to over-contribute to dim her voice. (Which is NOT going to be seen as anything but bullying)

-aim for a break when people seem worn out. (Which you do)

-offer space and support (which you do)

Well, at least that validates the area in my mind where... .

RA: Sometimes our best efforts do not yield the results we desire.



Still, using language regarding you having issues with leadership skills and gaining support on that front may be more appealing... .idk.  Or more distracting, idk.

Sorry!

[SamwizeGamgee]

I admire your desire and effort.  I have avoided my local church resources for marriage advice and counsel simply because I place BPD behavior as a core personality issue.  One I think is not comprehended by laypersons and typical social workers.

Best wishes all the same!

[empath]

I've had some success with just repeating the question at hand and not engaging the emotion discussion at all. It seems so counterintuitive from what I do with others, but the emotions sometimes are a way to avoid difficult discussions - especially if there is a commitment to follow through with actions involved. 

[Skip]

FF,

I think you might want to rethink what a leader is in a Christian relationship model. It's not a CEO.  It's not an Alpha dog.

It's a man who loves his wife as Jesus loves him.

It's unconditional love, it's inspiration, it's leadership by example, it's infinite patience. It all starts with you (not her).

In Christian counseling, you need to follow what the counselor is telling you to do - which is to change without condition. Specifically, without condition that your wife change.

The basic premise is that it will take time for you to establish yourself as a leader. You are going to need to find the strength to walk that plank without be "paid" for every step you take. I sense you are looking for immediate payback. Think how patient Jesus was.

When you do that, the counselor will then try to show your wife what is happening and encourage her develop her role in that environment. Hopefully she stay connected and continue into the second stages of this.

This is a tough transition to make.  You need to rely heavily on the counselor to direct your wife - not assume that to be your role during the transition.

For example, when you read this... .

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye... .

... .hear it as Matthew telling you what to do about you. Period. It's about you.  Nothing more.

When you have done this (for example) reliably and consistently, the counselor will have an easier time helping your wife redefine herself.

You don't need to be a doormat... .but you do need to find love, grace, and humility that you have not be in touch with for a long time. You need to make sweeping changes... .

Skip

[Skip]

Just for fun, what is an alpha dog?

• The meanest, strongest dog in the pack, that the others are afraid of?

• The dog that make the other dogs feel safe from outside attack, keeps balance and structure in the pack, and who provides access to food?

Skip

[lbjnltx]

As a Christian woman, married for 18 years to a Christian man, now widowed I needed to know that the person at the head of my family, my husband, could be trusted.  I needed to know that he could stand and fight for my family, protect us, make the final decisions, lead me down the right path spiritually/financially/morally, adore me, and provide for me.

When a man can do that, when he has proven himself to be that stable, strong in faith, kind and gentle, through leading by example then a woman can put down her sword, lower her armour, feel safe and submit to him.  I realize this is more difficult for a woman with BPD to do and it is not a reason that the man relinquishes his Christian responsibility as her husband.  It is even more important that he do so.

lbjnltx

[Sunfl0wer]

Part of RA, is accepting, that with our best efforts of modeling and leadership, in the end, we are still married to a pwBPD.  

Even when we are trying our best, we are not behaving perfectly, so yea, there is pretty much always something better we could have done for our part.  This is a given.

Sometimes our pwBPD may be acting badly, and sometimes this will happen despite our best near perfect efforts.  Sometimes they act well, and it also may not have to do with us.

The best leader with a spouse with BPD... .

... .is still a leader of a spouse with BPD.

Sometimes I worry a bit... .

When we are tending to judge ourselves based on the outcome and results. ( There needs to be balance of outcomes being a dynamic result of many factors into the equation.)

That is fine to directly correlate the two when the factors we are dealing with are mostly predictable/static/stable ones.  A whole other story when we are dealing with unknown, fluctuating factors.

I believe this holds true both when we blame ourself for the negative outcome of our relationship dynamic, as much as it does when we give ourself accolades for our partner behaving well one week.

[formflier]

FF,

I think you might want to rethink what a leader is in a Christian relationship model. It's not a CEO.  It's not an Alpha dog.

It's a man who loves his wife as Jesus loves him.

It's unconditional love, it's inspiration, it's leadership by example, it's infinite patience. It all starts with you (not her).

Yep, totally agree.

The nuance here, .that I may not have explained very well, is that the purpose of the meetings was to get together and organize getting the family to church on time.  The attempt/direction is to lead my wife through this (doing it differently).  She apparently doesn't want to do it differently and wants to focus on my emotions (that I don't actually have) and be disruptive of the meeting with that focus.

The counselor wants the love that Jesus gave but also wants to "CEO love" of organizing and running the house.

Wife is also a bit astonished or suspicious that Jesus had or used boundaries, he did.  And so do I.

more later.

FF

[lbjnltx]

FF, wherever you are, be it in counseling or on Sunday mornings, lead with a kind and gentle spirit.  Trying to lead in an authoritarian manner will not build trust with your wife or your children. 

[KateCat]

Formflier, do you also agree with this portion of Skip's post?

you do need to find love, grace, and humility that you have not be in touch with for a long time. You need to make sweeping changes... .

I don't know how anyone married to a mentally ill spouse can do this without first facing quite soberly the tragedy and grief of the situation. Pausing, maybe, to do just that.

Have I missed it in your particular posts? Do you really feel that your wife has paranoid personality disorder? What do you feel this means for you and for your children? Have you been able to slow down enough to feel the gravity of your wife's mental illness and the need for truly sweeping changes?

You seem to have a fine mental health team now. Especially if the psychologist who is helping you individually is still in the picture. (Wasn't she an older lady who used language like, "Oh, honey . . . . " when you spoke with her. She sounded like someone who can be straightforward with you, and realistic.)

Skip's post above is superb. I take it as a post for me as well as for you. Can you "sit with it" for a bit?

[formflier]

You seem to have a fine mental health team now. Especially if the psychologist who is helping you individually is still in the picture. (Wasn't she an older lady who used language like, "Oh, honey . . . . " when you spoke with her. She sounded like someone who can be straightforward with you, and realistic.)

Yes, she is in late 50s or early 60s.  I've not asked.  She is devout Christian and has been pushing me hard to show grace, to a point.

She is also working to show me that boundaries are not mean.  They are actually a "kind and loving" thing to do.  To point out to the world that this is where I end and you begin.  

In the past, I have viewed boundary enforcement as somewhat of a "putting up the dukes" (fists) kind of thing, and sometimes it is.  

Recently whenever it is boundary enforcement time I focus on taking a deep breath and being "kind but firm".

One thing that my psychologist has been surprisingly strong on is the idea of my own emotions and not getting tangled up in the projections of others.

She is also pushing me in my interactions with my kids to tie everything to who they are as a unique individual.  

My wife may or may not ever form a solid sense of self, but she is pushing me, to push the kids to become less dependent on "mommy's view of them".

Yes I agree with Skip's post.  

It is doubtful that my wife would be diagnosed with PPD.  If she had a bad streak that lasted for several months and she was being evaluated then, much more likely.

This psychologist IS pushing me to look for patterns that may help her categorize my wife more and at the same time she IS pushing me to focus on the interaction that is happening right now, that my wife is responding better, and to give her credit for that.

Basically "Get me information and don't worry about labels"

Yes, very good post.

FF

[KateCat]

What a wonderful psychologist who is working with you.

I disagree with the following, but hearing you say it makes me understand your position better:

It is doubtful that my wife would be diagnosed with PPD.

ADDED: I mean to say that if you do not believe your wife would be diagnosed with a major mental illness, then it makes sense that "embracing radical acceptance" is not something you feel called upon to do at this time.

[formflier]

 

In the grand scheme of the family, my wife is the "wannabe".  When she is acting up, it appears to me that she is trying to "chew a man's a$$" like Aunt so and so, or pass judgment like her mom.

Then she goes into phases where those women are poking at her to "do more" or "why are you letting him get away with xyz" (xyz is some concocted story)

The other women have had multiple divorces, affairs and fit the standard mold of Bpdish behavior than my wife does.

Her Mom is still on first marriage, but Dad is a doormat.  Worked tons of overtime and stayed out of moms way.  He once tried to give me advice that "he's had to put up with "it" all my life and the sooner I get used to that, the better"  Perhaps he is good at RA.  What is the difference in RA and a doormat?

My answer was "No, I will not be the one to adjust.  I will not "be getting used to it and will not be living this way"

My wife was first to graduate college and has done many things very different from her family.  If any of them have a chance to break free and live "healthy" it is her.

Plus, we essentially lived that way for a number of years (15ish).  The military kept me absent a lot and kept some things masked.

Good news to report! 

One of the focuses of the Psychologist is D5.  Has been having major meltdown issues for a long time.  I have become more of the primary caregiver  (to give mommy a break) and have been focused on validation and listening, coupled with firm limits on behavior. 

Meltdowns used to go on for 30 plus minutes.  The last one was over with a ":)addy I'm ready to talk to you" in about 2 minutes. 

We talk openly about being angry, sad and "feeling those feelings", vice being told "don't act that way, you've got nothing to be sad about, "

More later, good thread.  Keep it going!

FF 

[formflier]

 

I've been thinking about this post for a bit.  Will try to add some thoughts about things I have been changing and other things that I still want to change about me.


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I've been thinking about this post for a bit.  Will try to add some thoughts about things I have been changing and other things that I still want to change about me.


FF

I spend time with thoughts I collect here too.  We're both doing as you say.

[formflier]

So, had a really good talk/session with psychologist today about where I/we are and where I am trying to take the family.

Most progress has been made with D5.  She has been ground zero for emotional meltdowns.  My wife has stopped arguing with a 5 year old and I'm handling discipline now. 

My wife feels relieved and yesterday my daughter had a meltdown, but calmed within a minute as I hugged her and helped her talk through her emotions.  It used to be a 10-15 minute thing when I first started this effort.

I did some roleplay with psychologist about how to help kids identify and own their emotions.  "What are you feeling?" doesn't get much response.  I'm going to say how I would feel in a situation like that and see if they agree.  Move from there to identifying and owning that emotion.

I feel really good about the role I am playing here with kids.  They seem to be seeking me out more.  Wife seems relieved. 


My role with my wife and biblical counseling:  At this point I can summarize by saying "listen and stay out of the way".  She seems to be working through some challenging things.

Yesterday she said that previous biblical counselors had tried to show her that she was not being submissive and she blew them off (my interpretation of her words).  She now sees places where she is "grabbing the wheel".  She seems remorseful and is trying to leave the wheel alone.

She seems accepting of a couple boundary enforcement actions I took over "mind reading" and was apologetic.

"Listen and leave it alone" is sort of a mantra for me to deal with her projections. 

I open the door for her to "tell me more because that sounds really important to you", vice debating the point.

I had been pretty good at NOT debating, but have benefited from role play with psychologist to "open the door" or "draw more of that feeling out".

Been working on "getting over myself" and letting stuff go quicker.  I have been doing OK with this, but need to take it to next level.  Especially when she gives any indication she sees her wrongdoing.  Accept her back


More later,

FF

[KateCat]

Nice work, formflier.

On ways to help children--especially sensitive children--work with and work through their emotions, livednlearned has posted some wonderful information in her threads of the past year or two about what she has learned and what she practices with her son. It sounds like truly transformative things that child psychologists are learning and teaching these days. You may already be seeing early fruits of some of these validating practices.

[formflier]

 

Had to quit posting when my wife came back from running with S13. 

I've also been pushing her to spend more 1 on 1 time with kids, rather than trying to manage the entire bunch at once.



She can manage the entire bunch, but often goes into "stern teacher voice" which can quickly deteriorate into yelling and exasperation, and then into name calling.

More later.  Especially want to talk about what I am and am not "accepting"

FF

[formflier]

So, there is a great question out there about what do I "radically accept".

Also, to be clear I see a difference between "radical acceptance" and "this is OK".

I do accept that paranoia is at the core of my wife's issues.  Whether or not it is diagnoseable as PPD or is she is diagnosable as BPD does not affect me accepting that.

My wife is very high functioning and that will lead me to think, from time to time, that she may be able to be "close to normal" again.  Those are nice thoughts to have and a great place to put healthy time and effort (into the journey to a healthier marriage).

My best guess is that if I had all the tools in place after the flood that forced us from our home, my wife would have been "eccentric" or had some funny ideas here and there.  My best guess is that the pathway we are on now leads us to a much healthier marriage and that I would likely describe her end state is a bit eccentric or occasionally excitable.

I won't be able to forget the past, but I am able to smile about it, chuckle a bit. 

I was talking to Psychologist about this yesterday and she said she was pleased with progress we have made, but said that some of my wife's ideas are pretty out there.  She said the "murder by sex toy" plot was in the top 5 "worst" paranoid stories she has encountered in her years of practice.

If you remember the posting, my wife demonstrated for the Psychologist how she used her body to pin the sex toy and therefore prevented me killing her.

Psychologist followed up with a direct question about biblical counseling being the proper place to sort through this type of issue and my wife was solid that biblical MC was the best place to sort out the attempted murder.

 

She did say that my wife is responding nicely to proper tools and support. 


Does this clarify what I accept and that I don't accept?  If not, please keep coming with the follow up questions.

FF

[KateCat]

I think this psychologist is "just the ticket" for you, and I hope you can settle in for a productive journey with her guidance.

There's no way, in my opinion, that her diagnostic mind didn't take immediate note of the "murder by sex toy" thoughts your wife so freely shared.

I see a difference between "radical acceptance" and "this is OK".

Can you describe the difference you see between the two? And whether you think your opinion might evolve over time? Because I think you can make a lot of things be "OK," and I also think radical acceptance is the path toward that goal. I believe the psychologist can show you how to be the leader toward "this is OK."

If it is the case that your wife has always suffered from paranoia and always will suffer from paranoia, what will the future look like for you as the father in this family? I'd love to hear the psychologist's thoughts, for instance, on whether you can "do the work" and also work outside the home at this time, or whether it will be more beneficial for you to devote your efforts exclusively to the family for the next few years of your children's lives and emotional development.

[formflier]

When I say "it is ok", I am talking about the behavior my wife may exhibit.

I absolutely will radically accept that odd stuff will come up now and again.  I'm not going to say that behavior is "ok" or agree with it, or validate the invalid.  I will apply tools as best I can, and leave her to sort through her feelings about her experience while I use boundaries, as appropriate, to protect "my space"

Radical acceptance is to me accepting that these things will happen, much different than saying "I'm ok with these things happening".

Granted, there is radical acceptance to say that in many cases I will do the best I can and my wife will do odd things, and there is not much I can do about that. (assuming not a healthy way to apply a tool)

Are we talking about the same thing here?

FF