I heard her talk on the phone

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Today I am entering a bar where I planned to meet my friend for a drink... .It is a bar where I have never been with her... .BUT I saw her sitting there, alone and talking on the phone. She couldn't see me because she wasn't looking in my direction. I sat few tables from her, it is a small bar so I could hear what she was talking about. I felt really, really, really strange... .Like, should I be here, should I leave or what?

She was talking to her female friend and she said something about a guy texting her, that he is a bit strange, she needs to make all the moves bla bla, how insecure is and that confuses her. She said that she invited him for a drink tomorrow and than she said something like a joke: "I hope he at least kisses me, haha" "I didn't get a kiss for a long time ago, since [blackbirdsong]"

Some additional small talk and then she left, 100% she didn't see me.

That really striked me... .LIke an arrow. One of my defense shields were the semi-facts that she moved on right after I left her. But it seems that is not the truth.

Now I doubt if my decision was right, I doubt everything... .I made my own characterization of her based on her diagnosis and now it seems she really cared about me, she was really grieving the fact that I left. This shouldn't be important because I left for other reasons too but god - it really messes me up... .

Really don't know what to do... .Totally confused... .   

[blackbirdsong]

Today I am entering a bar where I planned to meet my friend for a drink... .It is a bar where I have never been with her... .BUT I saw her sitting there, alone and talking on the phone. She couldn't see me because she wasn't looking in my direction. I sat few tables from her, it is a small bar so I could hear what she was talking about. I felt really, really, really strange... .Like, should I be here, should I leave or what?

She was talking to her female friend and she said something about a guy texting her, that he is a bit strange, she needs to make all the moves bla bla, how insecure is and that confuses her. She said that she invited him for a drink tomorrow and than she said something like a joke: "I hope he at least kisses me, haha" "I didn't get a kiss for a long time ago, since [blackbirdsong]"

Some additional small talk and then she left, 100% she didn't see me.

That really striked me... .LIke an arrow. One of my defense shields were the semi-facts that she moved on right after I left her. But it seems that is not the truth.

Now I doubt if my decision was right, I doubt everything... .I made my own characterization of her based on her diagnosis and now it seems she really cared about me, she was really grieving the fact that I left. This shouldn't be important because I left for other reasons too but god - it really messes me up... .

Really don't know what to do... .Totally confused... .   

[Leonis]

I'm willing to bet that she noticed that you were there and was just talking straight out of her butt to her friend.

[blackbirdsong]

I'm willing to bet that she noticed that you were there and was just talking straight out of her butt to her friend.

I assure you that is not the case. She had her back turned to me when I entered. I wouldn't even recognize her if she didn't talk on the phone. And the configuration of the bar is shaped in specific way so that I sat at the table that is isolated from her view perspective... .

[Herodias]

I hate to tell you but they move on before we even know they have moved on... .It sounded to me like she was just talking a bunch of bull to her friend to get sympathy and advice on how to behave. Sorry you had to hear all that... .it can only help you to detach, I hope. They usually have someone to help them move on, but then keep looking. Mine actually got dressed up in front of me to go out to pick up women in a bar before he moved out of the house... .He said, "this is the life of a bachelor"... .it was ridiculous! That's the night he got picked up for a felony!  Sometimes I think they have it mixed up; you get another job before you leave the last one... .not a new partner!

[myself]

Really don't know what to do... .Totally confused... . 

What are your options?

One overheard conversation probably isn't the whole picture.

Do you actually doubt "everything", or are your feelings just stirred up?

[Hadlee]

"I didn't get a kiss for a long time ago, since [blackbirdsong]"

That really striked me... .LIke an arrow. One of my defense shields were the semi-facts that she moved on right after I left her. But it seems that is not the truth.

Now I doubt if my decision was right, I doubt everything... .I made my own characterization of her based on her diagnosis and now it seems she really cared about me, she was really grieving the fact that I left.

I think I'm missing something here.  I don't see how, from her words, it can interpreted that she didn't move on and was grieving the fact you left.

Was there another part to her conversation that you've left out? 

[KatyK2016]

Pending on how long your have been separated she may have already moved on from your replacement. She was also on her way to somewhere... .where? That person that she was hoping would text her could be one of many. Don't feel anyway about it. They always move on and they will lie and lie and lie to your face that they have not.

Don't buy it. It's not like you heard her mention you at all in that convo. She also sounds incredibly desperate right now... .Sorry to be blunt.

[Lifewriter16]

I also don't understand why you think she is grieving for you. It sounds like she's lonely and could be missing physical contact rather than you per se. Sorry, I don't suppose that's what you want to hear.

Lifewriter

x

[blackbirdsong]

Ok, I definitely need to provide more info. When I read this, I agree completely with you. It doesn't provide real picture. I wrote this immediatly after I got home so I was under influece of intense emotions and needed to vent.

So, after our breakup we went NC, I initiated this. She really didn't wanted to end our relationship. She was in therapy, but for social anxiety and depression (she said that), but once she mentioned that her T gave her BPD diagnosis. She was really bad after our breakup (I mean, I was also - we practicaly separated with tears, I just said I cannot do this anymore, I am not strong enough for this). Just before our breakup, in addition to all classic BPD drama and fighting, she was in contact with her ex. Apparently he contacted her, she even told me this, I didn't discover it myself. But it bothered me because it lasted some time... .She said that she is connected through work with him and cannot just shake him off, she needs to do this politely... .I must admit, it also influeced my decision, because I recognized in this one more BPD characteristic.

Also, after our breakup they were in contact and they were planning a trip together BUT she canceled it very next day after their contact (she said she couldn't go just because she is angry because of our breakup)

After few months of NC we had closure talk, I was already in therapy and I recognized also my bad patterns in our r/s and I told her about my research of BPD. I really validated her, honestly, with boundaries regarding her behaviour. She said that she didn't get this type of validation in her life and that it is hard to get this because she knows that BPD behavior hurts and confuses people. She admitted her problem and said that she would like to continue our r/s. I said that I am still in bad place regarding my therapy and I don't see this as a possibility, and even 'friends level' is impossible because I still have strong feelings towards her and I cannot pretend to be 'coffee friend' to her.

We went NC again, but she was constantly posting things on her FB page related to our r/s, quotes, character images related to our visits to different cities, very specific things regarding our r/s.

I even met her during my visit to one city and we talked for a bit and she admitted that she still really cares for me and few days later she contacted me when her mom died saying that she felt the need to tell me this.

So there is definitely a pattern that can proof that she still cares for me and that makes it even harder for me. And now this conversation from yesterday really proves that she didn't just cut me off and started all over again. And I mean, OK - she is started to date now, but this is actually normal - more than half of year passed by.

So, this thing - how much she cared for me or grieved our relationship - in general - shouldn't be important. The important thing is why I left. But during my detachement process I used this 'BPD symptom' crutch that she will cut me off anyway and this now hits me like a truck... .Also, I am now questioning my reasons for going. Still, I feel like I made a right decision, but it really plays with my head... . 

[Hadlee]

So there is definitely a pattern that can proof that she still cares for me and that makes it even harder for me. And now this conversation from yesterday really proves that she didn't just cut me off and started all over again.

I still can't see it from what she said during her phone conversation.  Overhearing a brief conversation cannot give you the full picture of what is going on.  Are you wanting to read more into it? 

It seems to me like you are seeking validation that you mattered to her.  Of course you mattered to her at some point, until you didn't. 

Please remember, you don't need validation from a disordered soul in order to build up your self-esteem bank.  You can do that yourself

 

[blackbirdsong]

I still can't see it from what she said during her phone conversation.  Overhearing a brief conversation cannot give you the full picture of what is going on.  Are you wanting to read more into it?  

It seems to me like you are seeking validation that you mattered to her.  Of course you mattered to her at some point, until you didn't.  

Please remember, you don't need validation from a disordered soul in order to build up your self-esteem bank.  You can do that yourself

 

You are right, she only mentioned my name over the phone saying that she didn't kiss anyone from our breakup... .

But I am connecting the dots here... .Considering the facts from our breakup... Limited contacts, implicit messages on social network etc and her not going out before with anyone... .ž

To be honest, I know that I mattered to her. At the end, I left her and she still wanted to continue our r/s. But I just didn't believe that she will spend so much time alone, so I triggers me now beacuse I think that I mattered even more than I believed and this makes detachement harder.

I don't know why - because I left but I still need a confirmation from her that I can move on. It really sounds silly but those are my feelings. Also, at the end she told me that I really broke her and that she will need a lot of time to recover. I think I also have this guilt feeling inside of me and in one way this 'dating thing', in one way, is also a 'finally letting go' matter for me. Like, I know now that she is not grieveng over me and she is able to move on.

So dual feelings:

1. Some sort of anxiety because she didn't move on right after me. Should I try harder? Did I left too soon?

2. Some sort of relaxing feeling because by starting dating others, she 'proved' that she can move on, and this gives me also a 'license' to go further with detachment. Why do I need this from her?

[once removed]

i get why this would stir you up. the combination of seeing her by surprise, or at all, and hearing your name mentioned in the process.

i agree with myself (thats a lot of fun to say), this isnt the whole picture. she mentioned you as the last person that she kissed, no more, no less. anything more seems like speculation, but it doesnt mean youre wrong. in a very clinical sense, people with BPD do not completely detach. but theres no need for us to pathologize it either; youve had recent contact with her. you have been on warm, friendly terms. there is obvious good will there. im not sure why it surprises you that she thinks fondly of you or didnt/hasnt completely moved on?

triggers tend to reveal something to us thats uncomfortable to acknowledge, if we look for it. i would wager your doubts have been there - you have hinted at them before.

[KatyK2016]

I may be confusing stories but I thought I read somewhere that you separated at the end of March of this year? If it has been a whole year+ and she has not contacted why bother? She has not contacted you that means she does not want the relationship. BPD's always come back if they need something.  

"We went NC again, but she was constantly posting things on her FB page related to our r/s, quotes, character images related to our visits to different cities, very specific things regarding our r/s.

I even met her during my visit to one city and we talked for a bit and she admitted that she still really cares for me and few days later she contacted me when her mom died saying that she felt the need to tell me this."

Posting things on FB to trigger you may be done on purpose. This does not mean she misses you it means she wants your attention if in fact she is knowingly placing quotes and places, photos etc on purpose. She could have also mirrored you for so long that she has now developed the same taste and likes in things as you. You might be reading more into it than there really is. I hate social media for reasons like that. I have blocked my ex and never looked again. Luckily I know he is not very active anyways. I feel differently when I see a photo of him now. It's dark and now I associate him with deep pain. The above also indicates that you really haven't gone full NC with her. more like LC. She probably doesn't have many friends and wanted sympathy and attention from someone. You happened to be it THAT DAY.

It sounds like she knows you care but keeps you at a distance knowing if she wanted to, she could call you and you'd be there. You know in your heart that this is true. She is keeping you stuck while she searches for her perfect mate that will offer her a life that she has always dreamed of... .Delusions of grandeur.

You need nothing from her. You need to more confidence in yourself. The ex stuff never goes away. If it's not an ex they always have someone int he wings. Even if its some stupid social media person a far they are still getting attention when they need from who ever they want. The lying, the drama is a part of their cycle. They crave it to feel attention. They require the push pull to FEEL something because they can't truly experience love.

You already stated you can't have a friendship with her while you still have feelings. You clearly do. She has not contacted you in a year besides wanting sympathy for her mom. Understandable. She has treated you badly and left you in state of where you constantly question if she will maybe be back or not. Because you love her and question if you did enough you are left still wondering, still stalking her social and still thinking that you will have a different outcome on a second try.

You have to look at the reality and know you did everything you could as a sane person would. You are dealing with someone who is imbalanced and does not think rationally. You have better luck trying to prove your point to a box of rocks. You have to know that you deserve better and she needs to be her right now. If she comes back, great. If she does not come back, better for you!


So there is definitely a pattern that can proof that she still cares for me and that makes it even harder for me. And now this conversation from yesterday really proves that she didn't just cut me off and started all over again. And I mean, OK - she is started to date now, but this is actually normal - more than half of year passed by.

[Leonis]

She could have also mirrored you for so long that she has now developed the same taste and likes in things as you.

Interesting point. I sort of got that vibe whenever she talked about her ex before me. Seemed to me that she's mirrored him long enough that she really took on his interests, etc.

Wonder how my ex will act now I'm out of the picture?

[blackbirdsong]

Just to update you about my situation. Now when I know that she went on a date... .

The fact that she started dating now, somehow, made me feel more relaxed.

Since I do a lot of meditation and mindfulness I started observing my feelings deeply during last few hours. I felt really relaxed and at some point it gave me an anxiety feeling because I was worried why do I feel relaxed, did I just push my feelings under the carpet?

I am not sure but the fact is that I am more relaxed.

Since I left I think I developed strong feeling(s) of guilt.

a) Guilt that she inflicted on me by saying that I broke her, that she didn't fall in love more than 10 years ago and now I am destroying this (my response was that I was never in love like this but that didn't change a thing)

b) Guilt that I invented by ruminating how I should try harder. How I didn't put strong boundaries because of my codependency which triggered her even more and now when I am in therapy maybe it could work.

Like I couldn't continue just by myself. Like I needed her permission to go to the next phase. And now I consider this as a permission. I am aware that this is not a healthy thing. To be able to continue just when someone gives you a permission. But that is the current state. I will try to exploit this now and work even harder so that in the future I can make my own decisions.

Again, I don't have bad opinion about her. God knows that I have studied about BPD so much that I just cannot be mad about many things. BPD doesnt give her a license to be bad, this is a reason why I left at the end but I can understand her impulsivity and accept it as part of her personality. That makes it harder for me to be mad. I don't think that I should be mad to proceed with my detachement.

Also, I didn't paint her black. I still have feelings for some parts of her personality. She is really great when not under BPD rampage. But I tried my best at the moment. Really did. I got so stressed and made some medical results and my GP was pretty sure I have a cancer. That bad results. So my survival insticts told me to go. Part of me is sorry that it didn't work. But I am aware that I really tried. Maybe there is someone who can make her happy after she does her part of job, and I also hope that there is someone who will contribute to my happiness after I continue with my inner work.