My 1st post - No freedom from my BPD Mom

[Fie]

Helly Finallyawake,

I am glad that you are doing so good. Well done !

Has it occured  to you that somehow it is a strange idea, making friends for your mum ? Finding a boyfriend for your  mum ? Making friends is something personal. Everyone has a different personality type of friends also. I would say that it is impossible to look for friends for someone else.

If you look out for friends for your mum; I can see 2 problems coming :

1. she might be  blocking the process, so she has an excuse for keeping you closer ('no friends can come between  us'

2. what if there is a fallout between her and a new friend ? You risk to be dragged right into the situation, having to choose sides, ... .she also risks to blame you for having her found the 'wrong' friends. And then your situation risks to escalate even more.

If you ask me, she needs to find her own friends - if she wants to - and if she can. My mum f.e. does not really have friends - no one wants to be around her. You need to find your own. I would say, go out and enjoy yourself. If you don't have any idea on how to start, you could f.e. look on meetup.com. There are plenty of groups with people, often single, who get together and share a hobby or an interest. You can even set up your own group.

And something else, but also that is only my personal opinion of course. I think you need to think of a way to live apart from your mum. Having an own life also means having  an own space. Where you can breathe.

I can imagine this must all be very overwhelming for you. I think you can be proud of yourself for all of the things you have been working on on such a short time. But please don't forget : this life you have, you only have one. Until now, you have lived it for someone else. Now, you can read as much as you want on BPD, and that's great. But keep in mind that the end goal, the reason why you are doing all of this, is YOU. Not your mum.

[Finallyawake]

I should clarify - my mom wants my help signing her up and using some social networking/meetup/dating sites. She doesn't know how to do these things herself and is afraid to try on her own. Once on there, she will get her own friends or boyfriend. I said I would help her. Of course, to complicate things, her physical health has not been good, so that delays things.

When I say that I'm ready to help her right away, she uses her poor physical health as her semi-legitimate excuse to delay. Then she says that when she was ready, I wouldn't help her. She then says now that I want to get on with my life, now I'm rushing her. She said I can wait for her because she had to wait for me. I think she's just saying that out of anger. I think as soon as she's better that she will be ready.

It's funny, but I don't recall ever telling her that I wouldn't help her. I think this may just be her gaslighting me (great movie, by the way). If anything, she might have said she'd like my help and I said ok, but because we never agreed to a time to actually start that this somehow is my fault.

I don't know. Between Mom's constant complaining about her physical health (victim role) and the back and forth between her being really nice to me and then being super upset with me, I can see how I was living with FOG for so long.

After four decades of my life being so enmeshed with hers and being exposed to this from the time I was a baby, it is very hard to undo.

I would love to have her move out and then we could then get together just a few times a month. I think that would be so nice. Instead, I basically have to wean her off of me, get her to be more independent, find her own support network, and work on my driving at the same time. It's almost as if she grew up and became an adult but her parents never gave her the skills to fend for herself.

Apparently, her mother did almost the same thing to her that she's doing to me. Her mother would go everywhere with her, although I don't think she was as clingy as my mother is with me. That's part of the reason Mom sees nothing wrong with always being with me. What a mess I've got to straighten out.

I'm not really sure if this is the obligation part of FOG that makes me want to help her. I think it's more that she's in my home and I really don't know how else to get some freedom from her. She won't leave and I do love her, so I'm not going to go about evicting her, even though I am really unhappy with her. I think it will be much easier for me to establish boundaries with her if she feels more independent from me.

[Fie]

Hello Finallyawake,

To me it is clear already that she uses every excuse she can think of to NOT have to make new friends, so she can keep you tied up to her :

1. Poor health

2. You 'don't want to help'

3. You 'are rushing her'

Her  only reason is to delay.

Asking  your daughter to not make  friends, and first make sure she has them, is  something that is in my mind not to be agreed on.

She is asking something almost no one would  do.

You can  also see it this way and even explain to her (not that you owe  her any explanation) : If you get used to use  sites as  meetup for yourself first, you can than, 'when your mum is ready' show her how to  use them. In my mind, this 'showing' will take one or two hours at  most. It is not up to you to actually reach out to people and ask them  to become your mum's friend.

Instead, I basically have to wean her off of me, get her to be more independent, find her own support network, and work on my driving at the same time. It's almost as if she grew up and became an adult but her parents never gave her the skills to fend for herself.

I think you are going way too far. This is the result of 40 years of parentification. You don't have to do ANYTHING. She's a grown up, but just pretending not to be one. You are treating her like a child (she has demanded that, but you agreed), and she settled in that role.

If you keep doing this, she will never 'grow up'. Btw, borderlines most of the time never do. They emotionally stay a child for their whole lifes most of the time. So if  you encourage her in that, your situation will never change.

I do realize you love her very much, and  you are afraid she won't cope without you. But she will. Just  not the way she wants to. (You are saying that  her mother did  the same to her when she was younger - this must mean  that at  one point, your mother did have a life without you. So she's perfectly able. Like EVERYONE.)

A therapist once told me that whatever happens to my mom as a result of my boundary-setting is really hers to own. Everybody has the right to be free.

I could not agree more on this quote. I think we are all here for a reason. Your mum has been  raised the same way as you have been raised.  Now it is up to you to break the circle. However your mum takes that, is really only her problem. The only thing you can do, is act towards her in a loving way. There is nothing more.

I want to give you a big big hug, because I realize that this must be so difficult for you. But I am sure you will make it, step by step. Keep reading and  posting as you go along ! 

[anyplacesafe]

The only thing you can do, is act towards her in a loving way. There is nothing more.

I want to give you a big big hug, because I realize that this must be so difficult for you. But I am sure you will make it, step by step. Keep reading and  posting as you go along !

I am very new to this board, just going through and reading posts, and I think the advice there is spot on & so realistic. The ongoing support is what already makes this board seem like a great place.

Finallyawake, you are in such a difficult situation but I too think you will make it, step by step. I often find myself thinking about ways I should or could parent my mother, heal her, fix her, make her better - should I send her mental health resources? Should I encourage her into therapy? Should I spend more time with her? I find it incredibly difficult to accept that her feelings are her responsibility to manage, and not mine. So I get where you're coming from and why you're struggling with that. But I can see the truth of the advice. Thinking of you with every good wish xx

[Finallyawake]

I do agree with and appreciate the advice telling me to just let my mom deal with being an adult and to stop the parentification role she forced me in my whole life. However, as much as this is the right thing to do, I am the one who has to live with the consequences. All of our situations are similar and yet different. I have to do this at the pace that works for me.

I love my mother too much to just rip the band aid off and tell her to start dealing with her life. Instead, I am peeling the band aid off a little at a time. I understand that BP's need boundaries. I am just implementing them at a slow comfortable pace (and of course it will still be uncomfortable at times). Her life and mine are too enmeshed to just do it all at once, even if she would eventually be okay.

I honestly don't know if I would be okay if I did it all at once. I've never had real freedom. I want to do this at a comfortable pace for me too. The big difference in my life is that I am now aware of her BPD and I am now being honest with myself and admitting I want my freedom.

The conversation I had with my mother regarding the first boundary I want to establish was a success and actually is kind of amusing. Let me explain.

A few days ago, I made it clear that I am going to start driving and want to start practicing. Today, my mother told me that she doesn't like the nearby hospital. She realized that if something happened to her, she would need me to drive her to the hospital that is almost an hour away. Yes, she had a narcissistic motive, but I don't care! Me driving is the first step to getting my freedom. She told me that she wants me to start driving as soon as possible. She even started teaching me things about driving this morning!

I can't have any freedom if I don't drive. This is the biggest development in my quest for freedom so far. From this, I learned that I can get my mother to support my boundaries if she sees a positive consequence for her. I can use that strategy to my advantage in the future.

Thank you for the virtual hug. I will keep posting as I make progress. Thank you everyone who has read or commented. I am so happy we have this place to communicate. No one else understands what us non-BP's go through.

[Fie]

Hello Finallyawake,

Good to read about the driving !

I am thinking there can be another reason why your mum wants  that you are able to drive 'to a further hospital'. She noticed that you are serious about the driving, and that she will have to accept it. In stead of showing you that she accepts your wishes, she pretends as  if it is her wish - and not yours.

Twisted, but this is what they do ... .they want control, always.

The good thing is she noticed your boundaries, and accepts them. You can pretend that you're doing it because she  wants you to - than  you are both happy  ;-)

Will you take classes with your mum ? I can imagine that must be nervebreaking :-)

Good luck !

[Finallyawake]

I won't be taking driving classes. I've actually had my license since I was a teenager. However, even though I know how to drive, I've probably only drove maybe a few hours total in my entire life. I just need practice. My mom has always been an excellent driver, so we have both agreed that she will be the person to give me a refresher course.

Oh and speaking of taking classes together, she did sign up for all of my classes back when I was in college (over 20 years ago). I was NOT happy about that, but I went along with it to please her. She attended with me for only one or two semesters though (I don't recall exactly). I did excellent and she did very poorly. We commuted to college and we did not live on campus. I am very happy those days are behind me.

[FallBack!Monster]

My mom has not been diagnosed with BPD, but I think she has some or many of the symptoms of it.

She has been the victim of physical, verbal, and sexual abuse, with the first two coming from her parents.

I grew up living with my mom and grandparents. There were constant fights. I spent most of my childhood defending mom to my grandparents. The fights made mom physically sick, so I also spent my childhood taking care of mom.

When I grew up, I got a job and made enough money to be able to take mom and move away from my grandparents. By then, I was in my early 20's and mom wanted to be my friend in addition to my mom. She insisted she looked very young (she did, but didn't look as young as me!), so she wanted to always go out with me and my friends... .even to nightclubs. This made me uncomfortable but mom wouldn't acknowledge my viewpoint.

I got my driver's license but could only afford one car. Mom kept saying I needed more practice driving before I could take the car alone. She ended up being the one to drive... .constantly.

Mom and I were always extremely close. I went along with all this because we were best friends in addition to mom and daughter. That is not to say that the lack of freedom didn't bother me... .it did. I just decided that the fight for my freedom was too much of a hassle and I didn't want to hurt mom. I really loved mom more than anything and other than the dysfunction, she was always wonderful to me.

Fast forward two decades. I'm now in my 40's. Nothing has changed as far as my freedom goes. Mom says I have sleep deprivation (she often wakes me or keeps me up late to spend time with her) and there's lots of bad drivers today, so she still doesn't let me drive the car I own (only she uses it and I can't afford a second car). Although, she now says she wants me to start driving. We will see if she actually lets me. She won't commit to saying when that will happen (I asked).

I've lost all my friends. I've had several short-term failed romantic relationships (partly because of mom and partly because I keep choosing the wrong guys).

Everything changed two years ago when mom started having increased health problems (nothing serious, just an endless string of minor illnesses). She agreed to a minor medical procedure that was not done correctly and caused her some pain. She then shocked me by blaming me for forcing her to get the procedure (dissociating?). She accused me of hating her (splitting?) and started talking about her health every single day since then. She also looks up medical issues online constantly.

Mom complains about her health daily. She has had some legitimate minor illnesses, but it seems like it's a never-ending stream. Also, when she says I made her sick by upsetting her or not giving her dinner on time, I have to think that at least some of her illnesses are either imagined, made up, or brought on by her poor handling of stress. She uses feeling sick as her excuse for everything.

Over the past two years, my mom who generally was wonderful to me, the same person who was my best friend has repeatedly told me I changed, I don't care about her, and has picked fight after fight with me. She constantly says I don't spend enough time with her and gets mad at me for it, but that's not true.

Every time I try to discuss my concerns and how this is affecting me, she calls me selfish and says I need to focus on straightening her life out first. She has a long list of things she wants me to do for her or teach her to do herself. However, I work all day (she's retired and never really held a job) and I am often tired after work. I have done some of the things on her list, but certainly not everything.

A few months ago, we had a huge fight. She got angry at me because I was working on something important with her and I ended up making dinner a little late (before 6 pm though). She kept gaslighting me (VERY common for her to do) for hours. She said she would forgive me if I just heated up her grilled cheese, which she knew she had already half-eaten and dumped out.

Finally, several hours later, she started threatening to make trouble for me. I finally asked her to move out of my home (we have ALWAYS lived together) because I reached my breaking point. At that point, she told me she no longer loves me and made every threat imaginable (non-violent though) to show me how she would destroy every aspect of my life and take away everything that is important to me.

Several hours later, she forgave me and said she loved me, but it gave me a glimpse of mom I've never seen before that really hurt and shocked me.

Both before and after that time, she's gotten angry at me for trivial things and repeatedly accused me of not caring about her. She also keeps gaslighting me a lot. I can't tell if she really is disassociating, trying to antagonize me, or editing the truth to suit her needs.

I recently told mom I see nothing wrong with us having our own friends separate from each other. She got furious and said that goes against our pact that she would get a boyfriend before I get one (What? Friends are not boyfriends and I never agreed to any such thing!) and that I should never want to do anything with friends and without her (abandonment issues?).

Mom pointed out that she always brought me along on her dates with her boyfriend when I was a teenager (I NEVER asked her to do that and besides, they went out plenty of times without me. She's just revising history). I pointed out that when I was little, she used to go out with her friend and didn't take her mother along. Mom said that's not the same thing. I think it absolutely is the same thing.

In the past week, I read the Stop Walking on Eggshells book and minus the self-harm, most of it was like it was written about my mom.

I know I can't tell mom I think she has BPD. She is highly suspicious of doctors and hates medicines.

I greatly miss my best friend, the wonderful mom I used to know. Every time lately that she is happy with me for a little while, I forgive her and then she gets mad at me again.

I feel like I am in prison. I want to travel, have friends, have a boyfriend, and drive. I fear that those things will never happen without my mother there constantly and on her terms. I would be okay with living without mom in my home, but I know that it would destroy her and she could not survive emotionally or financially.

I know mom would not accept us living apart or doing things separately. I wouldn't even know how to begin getting her to agree to any boundaries I create. The only time I am away from her is after she drops me off and before she picks me up at work.

This entire post breaks my heart. I have so much that I want to say that could be inspiring but some have already been said and the other words might be too harsh for someone in this predicament. Still, please find freedom for yourself. Don't ask for it.  Take it! it is yours.


I hope this is not to much off subject... .

I have an ex friend, who once said to me that she was in the exact same situation and she didn't know how to get out of it.  I think she just gave in and accepted it.  She has no friends.  she is 44 now.  The problem is that it was her daughter acting as the bully (so she said).  Still, I was in disbelieve.  However, I did read a couple of her msgs where she was doing the same. So i'm not sure in that situation who the real victim was.

When we hung out her daughter either wanted to come or wanted her to come home.  The daughter would even manage her mother's money.  Would only allow her mom to go out with a certain amount of money.  And she would find her mom boyfriends that she wanted her mom to date, but she had to be around while her mom was out on a date.  With me, I told the mom (my ex friend) that I do not hang out with children.  Oh did I mentioned that while the daughter was running the entire house and making rules, she had never held a job in her life.

Like I said I didn't know who to really feel bad for, because I don't think neither of them could really tell what they were really doing to one another's as well as each of their individual lives.  If that's not the worse type of abuse, I don't know what is.

[Finallyawake]

The splitting has started again. It was almost 10 P.M. Mom said she had medical articles for me to read. I said it's getting late and I want to be sure I have enough sleep. She said we can stay up late. I said I will stay up until 11, no later. I said I was all ready to read the articles. She said she needed to staple the articles and they won't be ready to read for a little while yet. I said I will go brush my teeth, get ready for bed, and come back in to read the articles in a little while.

I come back in a little later and she's raging because she feels I abandoned her (my words, not hers). She said that I missed something important on tv and that I obviously haven't changed because I don't want to spend time with her.

I told Mom that I am sorry and that I did want to spend time with her, but I didn't realize she wanted me to see something on tv. I said she could have just called me, but she didn't. I said I do want to spend time with her. I also said she can choose to accept my apology and spend time with me or she can choose to not accept my apology and I will leave the room. She interrupted me, told me to be quiet because she can't hear her show, and then flipped it around and told me to leave the room, so I did.

I am not going back to talk to her. I'm going to sleep instead. I expect her to wake me, keep me up all night, threaten not to take me to work, and accuse me of making her sick by upsetting her. We will see what happens. Oh, and I bet she will make comments about my sleep and say I'm not ready to drive.

[Finallyawake]

Sure enough, she woke me. She said she doesn't believe that I love her. She said she's too sick to take me to work, although I ended up going to work late. She kept me up until after 3 A.M. It took until then for her to stop being upset. It was also because she said it was very important I looked at medical articles and watched her tv show. In my opinion, both could have waited. I view the real reason I was kept awake is because it took until then for Mom to feel less abandoned.

Prior to learning about BPD, I would have defended myself nonstop. Instead, I did all the things I read about - empathy statements, active listening, was careful about the tone and pitch of my voice, etc. This was the first time Mom did the splitting thing and the raging and I did not get upset. I remained calm the entire time. Instead, I just marveled to myself at how Mom's behavior so closely resembles what I now know about high functioning BPD.

I am guilty of not considering what my mom's triggers are. I need to be better at anticipating them and understanding what brings them on. That will make my life easier. That is now my next goal. I do think I did a good job of not adding fuel to her fire.

I spent no time discussing my needs, my boundaries, and my reasoning. My opinions are important, but I now understand that she would not have been able to comprehend my side at all while she was so upset. I would have not been able to convince her of anything.

Oh and one last little thing... .I got out to the car first today. It was warm, so I got in the driver's seat, started the car, and turned on the air conditioning... .something I have NEVER done before. I was sitting there when Mom came out. She asked why I was sitting in her seat (yeah, her seat, even though I own the car). I innocently said it was hot so I turned on the air and I didn't think it mattered if I sat on the driver's side or the passenger side. She dropped it quickly. It was funny because I could see that me sitting on the driver's side made her uncomfortable, but she didn't feel comfortable enough to say anything further about it.

[BowlOfPetunias]

A lot of this sounds like she also has Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Unfortunately, NPDs are even less likely to change than BPDs.  A BPD may eventually see that their behavior is hurting people they care about—scaring their young children for example—or agree to treatment for fear of abandonment.  It is very, very unlikely that someone with NPD will ever seek treatment or acknowledge there is any kind of problem—with them (There are always problems with everyone else, of course.)  For a BPD, other people’s pain doesn’t matter MUCH OF THE TIME.  For an NPD, other people’s pain NEVER matters.


finallyawake wrote:


By then, I was in my early 20's and mom wanted to be my friend in addition to my mom. She insisted she looked very young (she did, but didn't look as young as me!), so she wanted to always go out with me and my friends... .even to nightclubs. This made me uncomfortable but mom wouldn't acknowledge my viewpoint.

Every time I try to discuss my concerns and how this is affecting me, she calls me selfish and says I need to focus on straightening her life out first. She has a long list of things she wants me to do for her or teach her to do herself.

she told me she no longer loves me and made every threat imaginable (non-violent though) to show me how she would destroy every aspect of my life and take away everything that is important to me.

I recently told mom I see nothing wrong with us having our own friends separate from each other. She got furious and said that goes against our pact that she would get a boyfriend before I get one (What? Friends are not boyfriends and I never agreed to any such thing!) and that I should never want to do anything with friends and without her (abandonment issues?).

Mom pointed out that she always brought me along on her dates with her boyfriend when I was a teenager

She has basically ensured that I have no choice other than to depend on her. Sure I could take the car without her permission (since I own it!), but then it would be a huge fight that I can't bear to go through. I somehow have to do this on her terms. I don't even know if or how that would be possible.

[Finallyawake]

Yes, she may very well have NPD along with being a high functioning BPD.

Mom had been icy cold to me since I got out of work yesterday. She wouldn't say what's wrong, but she said that she no longer wants any cards or presents from me ever again and she  wants to be by herself for the evening, just like she says I want. I said ok and asked her what's wrong. She refused to say. I told her I'm not very good at guessing.

So before I knew about BPD, I would have been doing everything possible to have her tell me what's wrong and get her to forgive me. Instead, I am letting her deal with her emotions herself and in giving her all the space she wants. She accepted my help with dinner, had me do some things for her that she doesn't know how to do for herself. She's also willing to talk about her physical health with me. Other than that, she is really mad at me, but is just quietly stewing.

A few hours later, she called me a liar and accused me of doing some things that I didn't do. I shouldn't have, but I got very upset and broke the rule that non-BP's should not defend themselves (from the Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder book) and I  convinced her that she was given false information. Eventually, she believed me and apologized.

She said she was upset with me because when I was in the driver's seat today, I should not have said I was there to turn on the air, but instead I was there to feel what it is like to drive.

Then she blew my mind by saying that she doesn't understand why I think she doesn't want me to drive. She also said that she is okay with me going out without her if I had a boyfriend. She said she's just physically sick and lonely and wants to spend time with me. Is she gaslighting me? Could I have misunderstood EVERYTHING? What the heck? I am so tired. I've had no sleep. As soon as I fell asleep tonight, she woke me because she was feeling sick.

She ended the conversation by hugging me and saying that everything is all forgiven. I think I fell asleep like five minutes later.

I ended up sleeping for over six hours. It felt wonderful. I thought more about what happened with my mom last night. I was not wrong. I did not misunderstand anything. Here's the proof - I had a previous boyfriend that could only come over my home, but I could not leave the house with him. The reason for that is my mom told me she could not be alone. Also, Mom countless times told me it's okay if I never drove and that there were plenty of people like me.

My mom seems to be back peddling now that she sees that I am standing up for what I want. I have NEVER seen her like this before. I cannot even to begin to believe that it would be this easy for me to drive, have friends, and a boyfriend. I am not sure what to think, but I want to start working on those things really soon!