What Was Our Fault?

[thrownforaloop]

Hey,

After going to the counselor last night, I realized that I have basically just been ranting about everything that I believe my exBPDw has done wrong since our separation. All of the ways that she has wronged me, cheated, mistreated me, etc... .But now, I think I want to be over that.

Yes, I do believe that she did a lot of things that were not okay, but what part did I play in our marriage failing? Recently she texted me a huge list in all the ways she thought I was terrible--but how can I sort what is true and what is false?

She said: I don't have my own personality. I know this to be false. I know who I am, what I like and I'm open to new things.

She said: I was overly anxious and a black hole of negativity. I think this was true, but only because I was consistently uncomfortable in the relationship and especially how we ignored our finances. I feel a great deal better and less anxious since our split. Hoping to work on becoming calmer. Just being the sole finance keeper now has been a huge weight lifted.

She said: I didn't take enough responsibility. This may be true. I didn't take enough initiative. I'd like to be better with that going forward--when something needs to be attended to, I'd like to just take care of it.

She said: I intentionally ignored the friends she tried to make for me and kept her and my family members as my only social contact. This is true. Truth be told, I preferred to spend my time with her and my family than new people who I didn't know well. However, in the future, I think I'll try harder to have a life outside of the relationship. To make friends who have similar hobbies to me and get some air from any future romantic partner. I agree that it wasn't healthy of me to always want to be with my exBPDw all of the time. I really believe I was codependent. Can't do that again.

Anyway, that's a start for now. Do you feel like you had places where you could improve?

[reincarnate93]

Sometimes I feel confused to what was actually my fault because I was manipulated for so long, but I think I definetly grew too attached to her and that seemed to cause her some emotional disregulation.

It almost feels like a paradox to me, it seems like the more you love them and care about them, the more they're gonna push you away or lash out at you.

I know that's not how a healthy relationship works and I could probably work on not becoming so attached. it really seemed to fuel the BPD rage she threw my way.

The lies she told me on a daily basis started long before I ever got attached though so I'll try not to kick myself too hard.

[Skip]

Anyway, that's a start for now. Do you feel like you had places where you could improve?

I asked this question. Two years later I started getting to the answer.  It an important and had question to grapple with.

For me, my journey was to map the relationship problems, learn how these things come about, assess her role, assess mine.

It's the longest part of the journey.

[thrownforaloop]

Anyway, that's a start for now. Do you feel like you had places where you could improve?

I asked this question. Two years later I started getting to the answer.  It an important and had question to grapple with.

For me, my journey was to map the relationship problems, learn how these things come about, assess her role, assess mine.

It's the longest part of the journey.

Thanks for moving this, Skip. For some reason, I always skipped reading over this branch of the message board! This is a great section.

I'm glad you found some answers after time. My memory is a little bad, so my relationship seems like it's a lot to untangle, as I remember some things out of order. But, here's to hoping that I can learn from whatever my mistakes were and come out as a better partner for the future. I've started journaling in addition to seeing a counselor. Just got to start asking my counselor for self reflection advice, instead of venting about my ex.

[Tibbles]

Definitely the longest part of the journey. I remember reading somewhere that those with BPD can be quite perceptive of others in some ways as they are always on the look out for how others will hurt them and are ready to respond. So that means they do pick up on our faults and use them against us. Some of the things my ex used to say to me are valid to a degree - but not the extreme and majorly catastrophic way he always made them out to be. So now for me its about looking back and accepting my part in the mess that ended my marriage, and learning to be OK with that. Accepting my faults and not being afraid of them but realising they are a part of me and that is OK, I am not a monster but a normal person with faults.

So now I work on things I want to change about me, not what he wanted to change about me. They are two very different things!

[HopefulDad]

It is said repeatedly here: "Before you can make things better, you need to stop making them worse."  And make things worse is absolutely something I excelled at... .

I would get accusations tossed at me and it wouldn't take me all that long before my fight-or-flight mode would kick in.  Often it was fight and I was verbally harsh: Shouting over her, dropping the shut-the-(6th letter of alphabet)-up bombs repeatedly, calling her crazy, insane or other dismissive adjectives.  In short, I was an ahole that allowed himself to get dragged into the mud.  Eventually I learned not to get roped in like that, but memories are long and I don't fault her one bit if that's how she'll ultimately remember my role in conflict resolution.  Perversely, it seemed that once I grew up and stopped responding like that, things got worse... .as if she thought I was a wimp for not yelling back.  When I started instituting healthy boundaries and got good at enforcing them, that drove her crazy.  She called me controlling because I wouldn't let her scream her head off at me.  Go figure.

I had also grown to become very passive-aggressive in the sense that I would never follow through on things, expecting my ideas to get shot down anyway.  One example: She would ask where to go for dinner and I would reply that I'd get back to her later, figuring she would shoot down my recommendation and pick a place anyway (almost always happened this way).  I would never get back to her and by then she had already picked out a place.  Did that enough times where she reasonably thought I didn't give a damn.  That also morphed into her effectively becoming the social planner and I'm just the husband who was along for the ride.  She resented me for this and she had a point.  I should have been straight with her rather than passive-aggressively avoiding the questions and requests.

I had also started withdrawing from the family, looking for reasons to stay at the office longer and longer and avoid the drama (real or potential) waiting for me at home.  Dealing with the repeated drama made me sick, but my kids suffered from my response.  Divorce has solved this issue as I don't go home to any BPD drama anymore, but I'm consciously aware of this moving forward... .be there for the kids no matter what. 

[eeks]

Hi thrownforaloop,

So now I work on things I want to change about me, not what he wanted to change about me. They are two very different things!

I agree with Tibbles about this.  If you want to look for "places where you can improve", I think it is more helpful to look at both your own emotions and behaviours during the relationship and the relationship dynamic between the two of you (and maybe discovering common factors among your past relationship partners) than what your ex said about you.  Your counsellor (and the members of this board) are probably more capable of helping you reflect on your relationship history and find places where you could learn and grow that will be applicable to your future relationships. 

I would say the most important things I learned from my brief relationship with a uBPD man were my response to idealization (my gut feeling was that something was off, but at the time I decided his behaviour was "unusual but harmless" and that I was attracted to someone who (despite chaos in some parts of his life) could be very precise and critical, a trait that both my parents (and numerous members of my extended family) have, and that my attraction to him may have been a desire to win a critical person over and "make the story turn out right this time".  On that note, you may find this thread I started about relationship dynamics helpful:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291810.0;all

You said you think you were codependent.  What were your behaviours that you think fit this description?  Maybe we could also look at those and start to brainstorm some more effective ways to meet the needs that you were trying to meet with those behaviours.

eeks

[valet]

Maybe this is a bit picky and a tad trite, but I'm not so much a fan of the word 'fault' to describe these kinds of situations anymore. These relationships weren't a mistake. They're here to help us grow and change into new people.

It's been almost a year and a half for me, and I'm just coming to the realization that at the time I couldn't have tried any harder or done anything better to save the relationship. I would do better now, but with that insight my feelings have changed. I don't want to do a better job in a situation that will almost guarantee higher levels of stress and disappointment. I can't lie, I'm still in touch with my ex and we talk somewhat frequently. She's done work on herself too, but quite frankly, I can't say that it has been enough for me to want to re-enter anything other than a platonic relationship with her.

It's important to think about what happened in a critical way. This is how we improve ourselves. But to echo Skip, it also takes a whole boatload of time for us to come to any clear position on the dynamic that unfolded with our partners. And this comes by making sure that we validate ourselves as best as we can. We need to be grounded or the whole ship sinks and we end up back in the same place that we started.

Codependency is often an issue. I used to struggle a lot more in this department. Now, not so much. Our expectations are also another very important thing to consider. What would you say yours are now in comparison to what they were for your pwBPD?

[vortex of confusion]

Oh yes, there are definitely places where I could improve. My best friend has told me several times lately, "Get your ego out of the way!" I have been pondering that a lot lately and she is right. Early in the relationship, I accepted that I was messed up and I saw everything through that lens. As the years passed, I realized that, while I had issues, they were not like the issues stbx had. So I started seeing everything through the lens of "He is messed up/disordered." Neither approach was good.

Another issue that contributed was the fact that I mothered him too much. We went to one counseling session and that was pretty obvious. If I had relied on him to tell me this, he wouldn't have because he rather enjoyed it and actually seemed to get worse when I tried to stop it. When I tried to ask him for input on how I contributed to the demise of our relationship, one of his only complaints was that I didn't keep things organized/clean enough for him. In other words, I wasn't enough like his mother. I put him in this box of petulant child rather than seeing him as a capable adult. The counselor brought up the fact that if I took him out of that category, my expectations would increase and I would no longer be able to tolerate his behavior. She was right.

Something else that I contributed is not allowing him to do anything for me. I didn't realize how that must have made him feel really rejected. No matter what happened, I took the bull by the horns and said, ":)on't worry, I got this." In later years, when I got tired and actually wanted/needed his help, he had no friggin' clue how to help because I had shut him out for so long. I could argue that I had good reason for shutting him out. The end result is still the same. This issue has become glaringly obvious for me lately as I am in a new relationship and I am doing the same thing. I am NOT letting my current boyfriend help me. All I am doing is venting and moaning while shutting down any and all of his attempts to offer help. I have shut him out without even realizing it. He reacted like any guy would, which meant he withdrew. That led to me getting upset and it is the same friggin' thing all over again. I don't think I will ever be able to have a successful relationship if I don't learn how to keep my mouth shut and accept help. Accepting gifts and other help is not weak or pathetic, contrary to what my FOO has pounded into my head.

[flourdust]

We're all different people. Everyone has something they could improve on, and every bad relationship has a mix of ownership of the problems -- whether it's 50/50, 90/10, or even 100/0.

If there's one common thread among the people who post here about their relationships, it's that we all failed to enforce clear boundaries from the very beginning of our relationships. The BPD behaviors described here range from "unpleasant" to "appalling," and we're all here because none of us said "This is unacceptable, I'm out" right from the beginning. People with clear and strong boundaries don't do that. They give someone who treats them poorly one chance... .maybe two ... .and then they walk.

No matter what else each of us is at fault for, this is the one problem we all share.

[joeramabeme]

What a great post, thanks for starting thrownforaloop!

I have no fault, rather, only to take responsibility for that which is mine to take.

Like Valet said already, I tend not to think of it in terms of blame or fault any more.  I honestly believe that we were BOTH doing the best we could.  Like her, I had issues that were playing out in the background that I was unaware of.  Recently I have had a bunch of awareness's about all of this.

First, I now realize that I had become afraid of her - particularly at the end.  This was not so much about her as it was about my Mother; starting at a very young age I was scared sh1tless of my Mother who was highly unpredictable and physically abusive.  Did my wife set off those triggers?  Yes.  Were my emotional fears in the marriage completely unfounded?  Probably not.  But likewise, not all of my emotional responses to her behaviors were attributable to her own doings - although I often made such conclusions.

There are also a series of what I will call, "practical awareness's".  I have looked at the big 3 complaints that she repeatedly told me she did not like about me.  I have self-admitted that she was correct about all those things and that I should have stepped up my game to show my commitment to her and the marriage, but did not.  Not to say that this would have changed the outcome as my sense is that she would have found something else to be unhappy about.

Regarding her top-3 complaints; I have undertaken a serious plan of personal responsibility to address those items.  Not in hopes that she will come back, rather, that being valid points, someone else would likely be unhappy about them as well.

As always, I have to be very careful not to fall into the trap of blame and shame.  My wife loved me.  She gave me her best and I gave my best too. 

JRB

[fromheeltoheal]

Anyway, that's a start for now. Do you feel like you had places where you could improve?

Oh yes, plenty.  The wheels seriously came off my serenity in the relationship, which has been great because the gift of a borderline is to shine a spotlight on things we can improve or change, so they're glaringly obvious, and not only that, the consequences of not dealing with them are painful, awesome really, since those things could have gone on for a few more years, or decades, if I reveled in continued denial, but deal with them and life becomes so much better and easier.

So the main ones for me are self-abandonment and self-protection.  Putting other people's needs ahead of my own, to the exclusion of mine, is self-abandonment, and do that with a borderline and you're screwed.  And allow someone to bust boundaries, and worse yet, assume I was 'wrong' and they're entitled to do it, will get you screwed too, to the sound of plummeting self-esteem, a result of a lack of self-protection.

So focusing on those, putting my needs and my boundaries first, is continuing to be profound, and easy to do really, with that focus.  Starts with eating a clean diet and hydrating enough, getting enough sleep, getting daily exercise, enough but not too much, and managing stress by not taking on too much, impossible when you're putting other people's needs first, and still the area that needs to most work for me, but hey, celebrate the progress.

And then, the icing on the cake, we can establish and enforce boundaries so strongly that we create a fortress, our own prison, but what I've noticed is that was necessary because there were too many boundary busters in my life, so out with the trash, and when we populate our lives with empowering folks who respect boundaries just because that's who they are, it's much easier to let the right ones through the gates, when it becomes the norm.  It's a brand new day!

[Wize]

Anyway, that's a start for now. Do you feel like you had places where you could improve?

Places where I could improve: chasing after my desires instead of allowing them to come to me naturally. This means recognizing and heeding the red flags instead of running around them to achieve my desires. Also recognizing that my desires may very well not be what's best for me.  I could also improve my self worth.  There was another post where a member called himself a dented can.  That's how I feel.  I don't deserve something healthy and whole because I'm not healthy and whole.

[fromheeltoheal]

There was another post where a member called himself a dented can.  That's how I feel.  I don't deserve something healthy and whole because I'm not healthy and whole.

Language is powerful, and it's helpful to question if our choices are empowering, not sure "dented can" is.  Sure, you could empty it out and bash it back into shape, sounds like a lot of work, and how about the can is just a little tarnished and dirty instead, and what if all it needs is a little cleaning and polish, so it can really shine?  And while we're at it, what's in it?  Something empowering and nutritious, with a little crap mixed in?  How about we dump it out, sort it out, and refill it with only the good stuff?  No bargain bin for this can, we talkin' nuthin' but top shelf, and why would we want to settle for any less?

[atomic popsicles]

I'm still raw, and this thread is hard. It's a hard thread because all the things he found fault with have an element of truth.

I have to address my insecurity and codependency. In some ways, both are about control. I have to allow someone to help me on their own timetable.

I have to work on these.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm still raw, and this thread is hard. It's a hard thread because all the things he found fault with have an element of truth.

And there's a gift of the relationship AP.  Borderlines have a way of shining a spotlight on our stuff, some of it we may have been in denial of, and being grateful for the light and moving towards resolving issues we may have been avoiding for a long time is an empowered way forward yes?

I have to address my insecurity and codependency. In some ways, both are about control.

So what is at the core of your insecurity?  Running a belief that we're not "good enough" is a popular one, and where did that belief come from and why do we continue to use it are great questions.

And codependency is the putting of someone else's needs ahead of our own, to the point our needs may not even register with us, and further, we get a sense of identity from meeting someone else's needs, a backhanded way of meeting our own.  And we do things because there's a perceived upside; why did you make the choice you did to become codependent?  What needs were you trying to meet, and why did that seem to work?

[atomic popsicles]

Great question. My insecurity stems, I think, from childhood trauma where I was abandoned by my father. It is a "not good enough" thing. I was always asking stbx for hugs, or wanting verbal or physical assurance that all was well. After doing a lot of reading, I get that it was the "normal" BPD process- the being put on a pedestal, and when the pedestal came down I panicked and held too tightly. I think my insecurity and codependency was an attempt, unknowingly, to control abandonment. It fed this crazy dance, in which I tried and tried and tried to do anything to get that approval and pedestal back, and triggering him in the process.

Last week it all ended when he destroyed much of our home. It was such a dramatic event that for a few days I could feel wronged (and I was). After a few days, though, I saw myself trying to connect and explain better and be better with him so I could fix it and he would love me again.

I know it's a common theme, but I have to start liking me. That went away when the pedestal he put me on went away. I felt worthless and useless. I don't ever want to feel like that again, so I have to really work on me so I don't need the pedestal. That's a lot of self discovery for me in a week, but now I need to do the hard work of not just recognizing the pattern but changing it. I just don't know how.

[thisagain]

AP, this is all really important insight! This can be a very slow, painful process, and like you say, you've taken some huge steps in a week. Keep thinking about all of this, keep posting here, maybe consider therapy for yourself. You'll get there. 

I had a similar pattern where I desperately wanted to be held and reassured that my ex loved me and that we were okay, especially after a fight. I wasn't like that in previous relationships, but the shock of the first couple BPD push-pull cycles triggered a lot of childhood issues for me (which I'd been managing well enough for my regular life but not well enough to handle this relationship). Because of the childhood issues, I was very afraid that she'd rage at me or otherwise invalidate me if I told her I was upset by something she'd done. Instead of the extra reassurance I needed, she often raged at me or pushed me away, reinforcing my deep-seated fears. This led to some really ugly drawn-out showdowns where I cried for hours and begged her to please hug me, while she raged or had what I now recognize as dissociation. Many mental health professionals and I believe that her behavior was highly disordered while mine was pretty understandable under the circumstances. But that doesn't change the fact that I caused both of us a lot of extra, unnecessary pain by continuing to beg rather than accepting that she wasn't capable of giving me what I wanted.

I agree with some of the previous posters who recommend focusing on where we made mistakes or could have done better, rather than "fault." One exercise that helped me was to actually list all of the major mistakes I made during the relationship. I've tried to focus on my own harmful ways of thinking, NOT how she baited me to react that way or how I wouldn't have reacted that way if I hadn't been traumatized by her abuse (though that may be true)... .Regardless of how healthy a future partner is, it's likely that she will occasionally have dysregulated emotions or even misunderstand something I say and make a false accusation. I'm trying to see patterns and gain insight from how I reacted to my ex, so that I can react in low-conflict, healthy ways in the future.

Overall I still think that my ex's BPD was the fundamental reason my relationship didn't work. Most of my mistakes did consist of reacting wrongly to my ex's BPD behaviors, and I made huge improvements during the relationship. So I don't think of these things as "my fault." But I do think that I'm capable of having healthier relationships with more people now that I've recognized and worked on these areas of improvement.

[fromheeltoheal]

Great question. My insecurity stems, I think, from childhood trauma where I was abandoned by my father. It is a "not good enough" thing. I was always asking stbx for hugs, or wanting verbal or physical assurance that all was well. After doing a lot of reading, I get that it was the "normal" BPD process- the being put on a pedestal, and when the pedestal came down I panicked and held too tightly. I think my insecurity and codependency was an attempt, unknowingly, to control abandonment. It fed this crazy dance, in which I tried and tried and tried to do anything to get that approval and pedestal back, and triggering him in the process.

I'm sorry about your father AP.  And the good news now is a borderline shined a light on that so you got to feel it all over again, so now you can resolve it for good, the pain being recent and all so you can use that as a reference and a resource.

After a few days, though, I saw myself trying to connect and explain better and be better with him so I could fix it and he would love me again.

Oh yes, fixing our way back to love, I'm all too familiar with the impulse.  You might agree that the urge, the drive, the intensity of that feeling isn't love, it's more like an addiction that we mistake for love, love is a warm, mellow place, but that drive, like you mentioned could be the need to avoid abandonment, could be the need for external validation, desperately, because our internal validator needs a tune-up, could be us chasing and trying to get something we never had and wanted, needed, true in my case, and in any case making that distinction is key, as we dig to see what that's all about.  You sound self-aware and like you've dug, and good for you!

I know it's a common theme, but I have to start liking me.

Yes, you could start liking you, or you could just like you, yes?  When we choose to like ourselves, love ourselves even, just because we say so, our brain can throw all kinds of crap at us: 'you can't do that because... .', 'that's not right because... .', blah, blah, blah, the inner critic gets a little wordy, but what if we choose to like ourselves and then listen to what comes up, knowing it's coming?  Then we can discover those disempowering beliefs and habitual words we use to describe ourselves, not very nice usually, and change them.  Because beliefs are like software, they're not the computer, and vocabulary is powerful, especially the vocabulary we use to describe ourselves, we end up wearing that crap, so good to choose wisely yes?

That went away when the pedestal he put me on went away. I felt worthless and useless. I don't ever want to feel like that again, so I have to really work on me so I don't need the pedestal.

There you go! And not only that, when someone shows up with a pedestal to put you on, you'll send them packing right away, because the self-love and ability to self-validate you've cultivated will make the pedestal unnecessary and the idealizer unattractive.  It's a brand new world!

I just don't know how.

You're already on the path, keep going, keep sharing and learning, you're doing well!  Take care of you!

[Herodias]

We're all different people. Everyone has something they could improve on, and every bad relationship has a mix of ownership of the problems -- whether it's 50/50, 90/10, or even 100/0.

If there's one common thread among the people who post here about their relationships, it's that we all failed to enforce clear boundaries from the very beginning of our relationships. The BPD behaviors described here range from "unpleasant" to "appalling," and we're all here because none of us said "This is unacceptable, I'm out" right from the beginning. People with clear and strong boundaries don't do that. They give someone who treats them poorly one chance... .maybe two ... .and then they walk.

No matter what else each of us is at fault for, this is the one problem we all share.

This is so true... .if I had any boundaries at all, I would not have had anything to do with him the first place! It's amazing how clear that is now. Even all the woman he was involved with during our marriage! No one had boundaries or they wouldn't have been involved with a married man.  The only one that had boundaries was the 18 year old girl he dated when I first met him... .She dumped him pretty quickly and I took over... ."meant to be" I thought. It is just like the one he is with now... she said the same thing on face book, "meant too be" after I left... .so incredible. Now I have standards... .big time!