Finance & BPD

[seenr]

Hi all,

Just wondering if any of you have suffered financially by being with a BPD ex?

I have had the following:

Joint bank accounts cleared as soon as we had a row

Little savings jars that we had for family events etc emptied the first time I stepped out of line

Loans taken out in my name for assets she has

Constantly requesting more money week to week

Saying things like ‘I shouldn’t have to ask’ when I was the person bringing in the money, handing over the agreed amount for the family, then more being hinted at

Gone through my personal belongings to try to uncover details of bank accounts

Complaining that I had bank account that she didn’t know about

When finding out what I had in my bank account, complaining that the relatively large sums of money I gave were a pittance

Complaining that I took all her savings a number of years back (I didn’t – I watched her make short term decision one after the other until a sizeable amount became 0)

Ridiculing attempts that I did make which cost me a lot of money, but I didn’t mind as it was for us

Her daughter devaluing me for not buying her the latest phone, or for helping her buy second hand furniture rather than brand new

Whenever I tried to talk to her about money she would get extremely defensive and say ‘it is your issue’ but it became such an issue that whenever the topic came up I felt sick over it, to the point of not wanting to re-fuel my car if she was in the car with me as she would be s___ing at my choice of fuel station if there were small differences in price between the station I picked & others.

I would be told that money was my issue, but if you give someone 500 dollars to attend an event and three days later they say you are mean, do you think you have a right to defend yourself and say ‘I am not mean as I have tried to do ABC’?

This is one area my BPDEX has really got to me. My close friends & family have said I am far too generous with people I care about & that financially I was led up the garden path.

[gotbushels]

Hi all,

Just wondering if any of you have suffered financially by being with a BPD ex?

Hi seenr 

Potentially a tricky one. My apologies in advance if I've offended anyone here--it was unintentional. I acknowledge differences in opinion about how different people handle the money issue. My intention is to have and encourage a calm, productive, and respectful dialogue:)

Thanks for your honest sharing seenr.

Before we go, please clarify:

when I was the person bringing in the money

Are you the sole breadwinner?

Are you paying for the entirety of the household?

Is she working?

Are you paying for any expenses that are most closely related to her, e.g., daughter's gifts, tuition?

If she isn't working, what is the reason?

Was her employment/financial situation like this before you got together?

What is the marital status between the two of you?

Short answers are fine, don't mention if you don't feel comfortable:)

Whenever I tried to talk to her about money she would get extremely defensive and say ‘it is your issue’ but it became such an issue that whenever the topic came up I felt sick over it,

I recall seeing somewhere that if you're contributing, you've got a right to communicate about it. Similarly, paying for one thing doesn't automatically create a controller-controlled relationship.

I think before one talks to any partner, one must have some sort of opinion about it. Then you can discuss. With BPs I think this sort of thing would get worse.

to the point of not wanting to re-fuel my car if she was in the car with me as she would be s___ing at my choice of fuel station if there were small differences in price between the station I picked & others.

Okay. Well, it's unpleasant to get s___ed at. Even more so by someone who is supposed to be your SO. Rich people pick gas stations too. Spendthrift people sometimes don't bother.

Was she working? Did she contribute to the shared household? I feel this is an exercise in behaviours rather than pedantics and quantities, so let's stick with these questions first.

I would be told that money was my issue, but if you give someone 500 dollars to attend an event and three days later they say you are mean, do you think you have a right to defend yourself and say ‘I am not mean as I have tried to do ABC’?

It can be hard when we give something and don't expect to get back. It's harder when a perceived insult comes at us when we have given beyond what we expect. Again, is she working or contributing to the household?

This is one area my BPDEX has really got to me. My close friends & family have said I am far too generous with people I care about & that financially I was led up the garden path.

I'd encourage you to see this as an opportunity for growth. I belief healthy relationships are when both men and women have a decent picture or at least some understanding of handling incomes--that includes communicating about it.

[seenr]

Thanks gotbushels

We are apart now two months.

When we got together she was in receipt of benefits from the state. I knew she would have to give those up so I offered x amount per month and a lump sum to do as she pleased.she was working part time and about three months after getting together she gave that up. I knew that decision would put pressure on us. She ran it by me but I knew she wanted out of the part time job. She said it was demeaning. She doesn't have a third level qualification so a while back I paid for her to go on a course that she left after 2 lectures.

She was a stay at home Mum and I was fine with that as it gave excellent care and tuition to our son. As I upped my household contribution she didn't seem to take in the risk of running down the savings. I said if we could manage month to month on my salary coming in we would be fine.

I had no problem giving her money but she had a problem asking. I understand that so when we made a decision to change the financial model so she had access to more, she seemed happy but a few days later asked for more again. Suddenly when I questioned her I was falsely accused of so much. She became physically aggressive and I had to leave the house for my safety and to avoid upsetting the kids. That was before  listening to so much vitriol about me being financially abusive.

The weird thing is that being together she was much better off financially. She wanted 50/50 access to all my savings and I said we could do that once trust had been established. She mentioned other couples and I said they had not broken up like we had. They didn't have the same trust breaches.

I had agreed to fund a house purchase for us in the coming months and the deposit would have taken half of my savings. I thought that was significant. When I tried to explain my fears they were dismissed.

I now feel so guilty alone that buying anything even a gift for my son makes me feel guilty. She accused me of not buying and for him while we were together and that was hard to take as I was constantly getting him little gifts and bought her daughter treats too. But it was as if ten would not do they wanted 20. Like nothing would ever have been enough.

Thanks for listening.

[seenr]

I just also want to add that I was in favour of us splitting everything 50/50 but I was scared that if we did she would end it, based on a conversation between her and her daughter one night. She also said that we had so much history that she wondered if she had met someone else when she met me would she noe have a nice house and good life. I was being blamed for so much.

I had wondered too what if I met someone else but I was dealing with the reality - I love this woman and want to make it work.

I never cared about her education, job status, anything like that. I cared about her, her daughter, happiness and our son. But if I spoke to her about finance it was a sure bet that the next row would see money crop up as an issue.

[asphyx]

Impulsive spending is mentioned in the criteria for BPD in the DSM-IV, so it would be no surprise if many people here had similar experiences.

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g. spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). This does not include suicidal or self-harming behaviour.

My BPDex and I were not very rich, but she still could not help herself from buying little things. She would constantly think of something new that she 'needed' to buy (usually clothes) and would just buy it without thinking.

One thing that really pissed me off was her leeching parents (BPD mother and AsPD father), who I'm fairly certain only conceived her because they wanted someone to take care of them later in life, would constantly ask to borrow money and she would ALWAYS say yes. On 90% of occasions they would not even pay us back, so we were basically just giving them money, even though we couldn't really afford it. If I challenged her on it, she would flip out. It was like she was operating under FOG from her parents, and I had to suffer as well.

[seenr]

Hi Asphyx

Yeah that is it, impulsive spending. Mainly things like clothes but also when I handed over lump sums for whatever she wanted to do with it, later I'd be criticised for not handing over more. E.g. 'you saw me buy second hand itemA and you could have funded brand new itemB'

I just thought that if you help someone financially you allow them to decide what to do with that money as they see fit. But then being blamed for decisions they made was just so hard for me to come to terms with.

It is very disheartening when I felt I had given a lot but it was deemed not enough. I began to think would anything ever be enough. I'm talking 10,000 dollars here in 6 months.

In terms of the traits you listed, I can see at least three in her behaviour.

[gotbushels]

I cared about her, her daughter, happiness and our son. But if I spoke to her about finance it was a sure bet that the next row would see money crop up as an issue.

I feel you. Cash issues aside, there seems to be a significant communication issue here. Trying to care for people we care about is sometimes very difficult with such issues. While you're trying to resolve that and you've taken steps to protect yourself and your children from violence, I'd encourage you to have a look over at validation. If you can have a peaceable conversation with her, it could significantly clarify your options.

She became physically aggressive and I had to leave the house for my safety and to avoid upsetting the kids.

Please be aware of the DV protocols in your area as well as on here. If it's reached this point, it's a big signal that there is something that clearly needs to addressed.

[seenr]

Thanks gotbushels.

We are no longer together so I can't do anything about her attack. I didn't see the police or a doctor in the aftermath so I have no evidence. I did take a photo of me in a distressed state but it proves nothing. Besides, she told me I had no witnesses and as part of the aggressions she hurt her own hand and claimed I hot her.

But in terms of the money, I told maybe 5 trusted people the sums involved and they called them 'crazy', 'lunacy' etc. I have read articles about how some people think giving up their job and having their partner provide for them is linked to childhood, they want to go back to when their parents provided for them. My ex's Dad worked in another country for a lot of her childhood so I have thought was she looking for someone to replace that feeling she didn't have as a child.

In the aftermath of the aggressions I told her some home truths and I think because of that she ended things. It is almost like she had seen that I had connected to the real her and it scared her. I think she nuked everything to prevent me coming back - saying she no longer loved me etc. But the fact I didn't just giver her full access to my bank details was also a factor. Ever since I came into some money it was almost like she was fanatical about getting it spent asap.

[JQ]

H seenr,

you're story isn't much different then a lot of people in the group including myself. My 1st exBPDgf (20 yrs ago) was incredibly impulsive with money and still is to this day. My most recent exBPDgf is a very highly educated woman with an Ivy league education with 2 Masters. She is INCREDIBLY impulsive with money and I'm glad I'm out before I lost all my money to her severe mental illness.

She is tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no signs of ever getting out of it. She makes 6 figures a year in a Fortune 500 company but has nothing to really show for it. As asphyx points out, those who suffer from this Cluster B Mental Illness in a lot of cases have severe impulse control to include the things they point out, sex, alcohol, reckless driving, binge eating. She did all of those and more and then try to justify her actions to me in an attempt to control & manipulate me and the situation. When she drank, it was in excess and just amplified her impulse control issues. Certainly a no win situation for her or myself. There were unopened boxes of things on her counter for months, in her garage among many other examples of out of control spending. It's a coping mechanism for them, at least in part. It is part of the mental illness that is difficult at best to explain even by the some of the best mental health experts.

You said, "I now feel so guilty alone that buying anything even a gift for my son makes me feel guilty." Do NOT let her manipulate YOUR feelings into a guilty state. They're very good at this as most of us in the group would testify too. On your journey of education of BPD and healing yourself I and others in the group would highly recommend a really good therapist experienced in BPD & codependent r/s to help you sort through all of this. Help you work through all your thoughts, feelings and emotions and learn why you were attracted to a BPD in the first place.

My stepmother is BPD and she has ALWAYS had money spending issues even up to recent spending sprees that involved thousands of dollars when only a few months ago she was wondering how she was going to pay the electric bill. She has declared bankruptcy more than once and growing up in that kind of house is why I'm as frugal as I am.

Take a deep breath and know that her behavior is the result of a Very Serious Cluster B Mental Illness.  Learn to take care of YOURSELF. Learn to be happy with yourself.

J

[adventurer]

I begged my wife on and off for 10 years to find a job and she never would. No kids, no reason to sit around, I did far more than half the housework as well.

I got into debt making bad choices, I kept trying to provide for her, was afraid to say 'no' because of the emotional abuse that would follow, I wanted to just keep the peace, keep everyone happy. Nothing I did for her was recognized or appreciated, it was always immediately onto the next thing she was lacking and she was being denied in her massive entitlement.

Once I finally took responsibility for my bad financial decisions and stopped blaming her for not working, I was able to say 'no' a lot more often. Then she was able to resent me, reliving the childhood wounds caused by narcissistic parents who constantly criticized her and berated her for the 'expense' she caused by requiring things like shoes or braces. I also think that, as the waif stereotype, she felt that the more helpless she appeared, the more obligated I would feel, and the less likely it would be that I abandon her.

Through radical acceptance, not only did I stop blaming her for not working, I embraced the fact that was just how she was going to be. I stopped complaining about or discussing my problems about finances with her, as this would just trigger her and cause circular arguments that went nowhere. Nothing I could do would ever change her or the fact that she just was not going to work. I realized that with such a person, there would be no possible way for me to build the future I wanted, afford any sort of retirement, accomplish my goals in life, while supporting her as a dependent child. So I left.

Now come the accusations, the guilt tripping, the smear campaign, the rage, and the harassment of my workplace and family as I refuse to engage her any longer. I am not even going to JADE my decision to divorce her, why bother trying to explain anything to her any longer? It will only provide fuel for arguments and further contact and drama. I have stated it's clear we want 2 different types of lives, they are incompatible and I am simply done trying to discuss it with her.

We tend to think of financial abuse as a narcissistic type person controlling all of the money and doling it out or withholding it from their victim on a whim, as a method of control. That is the person I would have had to become if I wanted to continue with her.  But there is a flip side to financial abuse that is not as often discussed, the abuser who makes themselves completely reliant and financially dependent on another person with no good reason such as staying at home to raise a family or some sort of relevant disease or disability. They wear you down with entitlement and emotional abuse, or straight out stealing, secret credit cards and debt. They refuse to contribute and participate in the relationship as an adult who takes any responsibility for themselves. And every day we stay with them we enable this low achievement and negative behavior of theirs.

[seenr]

Thanks again for your replies.

Adventurer you hit one interesting point. Several times my ex said that as kids their parents had little or no interest in them. She said each was left to their own devices at 18, to do as they wished. My parents were different, they asked us to get an education & to see the world. They did their best for us that way.

Recently my ex saw someone with electric gates at the front of their house and said she would like those in our next house. She had a sum in her head about how much it would cost to get a house into a state she was happy with. This sum was fixed no matter what house it was. I suggested we could do it cheaper one day as a workmate had renovated a house recently. My ex told me 'go live with her so' and stormed off crying. It had to be this fixed amount spent or nothing at all.

The ironic thing is that by ending our relationship she has left herself in financial poverty. It is like unless she had access to my money then she would be alone and tell people I left her. I begged her to stay together hut she refused.I do think she was financially abusive as she flipped the controller aspect - unless she was controlling the money side of things then we couldn't be together. She also made it very clear before the split:if money crops up once more we are done. Then when she initiated a conversation about money, once I questioned her that was enough for a physical attack to be launched.

I am not a victim here - money is an area where I left my boundaries down and allowed someone take take take.

[gotbushels]

My ex told me 'go live with her so' and stormed off crying. It had to be this fixed amount spent or nothing at all.

Oh dear. I'm sorry to hear you went through this. I can definitely relate to this. Basically whenever I held something out as an example to consider--if there was a female--I would get a response like this. My variation would look something like:

Ex: <opens some conversation about an ex of mine>

<discussion>

Ex: <extreme profanity> GO FIND HER → KABOOM dysregulation episode.

I learned that whenever an ex before her comes up in conversation--helmets on, sandbags out, send a message to the general.*

Now, I recognise that I could have handled those much better. Even the most innocent remarks would trigger my ex. Nevertheless to balance the information here--recognition of my part doesn't invalidate my experience of this conversation.

On a separate issue seenr--I know some people may get upset with the whole investment vs return space of thought (this moves close to the concept of reciprocity, which is another way to look at this)--it might help you to explore if you got anything in return. So I want to emphasise the facts and absence of judgment here. My thinking is that a discussion in this area might soften the blow. I have heard in intimate conversation some people use this to soften the blow for them. If this is a sensitive topic feel free to decline to answer. Again, I ask casually and not from a position of judgment.




* Also a bad idea. If you're finding may have been doing this, please see here.

[seenr]

The thing is I didn't want any return apart from not having to up & up the contribution all the time and for us to have a solid stable relationship.

I was well aware that families cost money. I was giving the money. But then I would be asked to leave the house. By both her and her daughter. I'd be gone a day when I'd be asked to pay the rent. Her daughter threatened suicide once as I was being thrown out unless I paid the rent. I did pay the rent and two days later was thrown out again. If I spoke she said I was abusive, if I said 'look I think we all need to calm so I'd rather say nothing for now' she would say I was giving her silent treatment.

Her point was that controlling the finances was abuse on my part. My view was 'you said x was enough now you want y'. 80% of my income was going into the household and I was fine with that but was getting nervous thinking that 80 could become 90.

There were other problems too in that for birthdays, mothers day, Christmas, if I bought a gift she always returned it. So I started giving cash presents and she told me I was not romantic. A few years back I was going to the city and left 400usd for her to go shopping. 'Thanks for your guilt money' she screamed. I wasn't guilty I just wanted her to have enough.

The more I think of it the more I think it was her issue. She told me how she once had to live with a relative who took money from her to pay for her upkeep. I said how I had lived with relatives too and vice versa and there had always been even modest contributions and she accused me of taking their side. She told me of an ex who took her on holidays and was 'watching the pennies all week'.

So I expected no return, never asked her to do anything. On Valentine's day I again gave a cash present, card and champagne and she gave me ... .Nothing. She said 'I don't like Valentine's' and I just thought fair enough it is about how you feel about your partner and I was happy to spoil her.

Possibly I have very low expectations of a partner which is a problem I need to address.[/quote]
On a separate issue seenr--I know some people may get upset with the whole investment vs return space of thought (this moves close to the concept of reciprocity, which is another way to look at this)--it might help you to explore if you got anything in return. So I want to emphasise the facts and absence of judgment here. My thinking is that a discussion in this area might soften the blow. I have heard in intimate conversation some people use this to soften the blow for them. If this is a sensitive topic feel free to decline to answer. Again, I ask casually and not from a position of judgment.[/quote]

[gotbushels]

Okay seenr.

Her point was that controlling the finances was abuse on my part.

That seems like a good interpretation of her feelings. This seems to be an issue in all sorts of relationships. Even those without pathologies. These issues also seem to have more reasons to exist when one member doesn't contribute to the expenses--that's just my observation of situations I've seen in general.

The more I think of it the more I think it was her issue.

You could be right here. I know people on both sides of the issue that you share. It's not fun when money is used as some sort of tool. It's also not fun when money is used without the earning member getting a fair hearing. I'd love my wife to shop--but I'd like to keep my right to complain.

Possibly I have very low expectations of a partner which is a problem I need to address.

Sometimes when our exs don't meet our expectations in some areas, it does feel like we have generally low expectations. I'd consider caution here. One "underperforming" apple doesn't the barrel spoil. Also, you could well be right.

The thing is I didn't want any return apart from not having to up & up the contribution all the time and for us to have a solid stable relationship.

Okay, you didn't want any return. I've felt the same way. I still do. I'd consider than return may not strictly be monetary--did you get anything from the relationship itself? I'd like to clarify that the rightness of mixing money and feelings isn't at issue here--if it describes the situation, then it would be beneficial to work from there. 

[seenr]

One other point to add is that when we met she had a substantial balance and I didn't. This was whittled down by her actions (moving in with me then moving out - having to pay for new accommodation) and also after a major traumatic experience (her decision) she gave up her job and went on a three week holiday that cost a lot of money. I was just trailing along trying to keep up. She left the job as a workmate advised her on a decision and in the aftermath of the decision she decided that the workmate was responsible for the decision so packed in the job.

This was all a long time ago and when I stepped up to help financially that is when comments like 'guilt money' came in. Over 8 years I think our relationship squandered approx 60,000 dollars which could have been avoided had we been able to sit down, talk and agree expectations.

The ironic thing is at the end I told her she could have everything if we could stay and be a family but she said no. It seemed that rather than talk and iron out difficulties she decided to take a step backwards alone. I can't rule out this lady returning again in the future at which point if we could try again we would be gone backwards in many respects especially finance but more importantly trust and love.

I am told I am a generous person but time and again when I was generous, shortly afterwards she would pull the plug.

That's the part I don't get.

[adventurer]

I am told I am a generous person but time and again when I was generous, shortly afterwards she would pull the plug.

That's the part I don't get.

If the money stuff is really tied I to love/acceptance for her this strikes me as very much the typical push/pull dynamic of disordered individuals.