Where my wife is at right now, what do you guys see

[formflier]

Below is what my wife emailed our Biblical counselor.  He had sent the article I previously mentioned in another post about each of us being on the cross with Jesus.  This is her reaction to reading that article.

I just don't understand why God wants me to trust, have sex with, and obey a man who looks me in the eyes and lies again and again. I talked with our social worker yesterday... .left a message with her a couple months ago.  She confirmed FF was indeed asked to leave our home and was not allowed to see the children without another adult present. She said she would be happy to speak with FF and confirm what happened for him but she cannot write anything about our case in an email or letter. I told him this and he still does not admit he is being untruthful about what happened. So dying every day really means I trust him anyway, have sex with him even though he lies to me and about me whenever it gets him what he wants, and obey him happily even when I believe his decisions are selfish and self serving?  The gospel primer was clear... .but I need to know for sure I have this right. FFWife

The only backstory that I will add is that when I made the report to SS we all signed a "voluntary separation agreement" to put in writing what we agreed to.  I believe that my wife believes that SS said "FF is bad... .we order him out of the house... .there is no recourse... .bad FF"

I believe they considered us a "family in need of services" and they were providing services while the looked into things.  Once they looked into things and determined there was nothing "actionable" against either parent and closed the case.

My goal (one of my goals) was to "force" my wife to comply with treatment/evaluations.  As soon as we agreed on the language that "FF and FF wife will continue going to current counselors and COMPLY with their direction"... .I was ready to sign.

The other condition was that I live at my parents house.  

Access to kids was governed by the family therapist, NOT SS.  Family therapist was adamant that for a period of time that I ONLY spend 1 on 1 time with all my kids.  He believed I needed to change focus to from "leading a big bunch of people" to having 8 separate and unique relationships with each of my kids.

He really wanted me to get into their world and understand them.  To hear and reflect back to them their concerns and to wait to "fill in their questions".  I was/still am, bad about jumping in to provide an answer, when I need to provide emotional support (empathy)

FF

[flourdust]

What I see ... .and I don't fully understand ... .is a he-said/she-said rehashing of an event from the past. Has there been a back and forth about this event recently in your counseling? She's saying that she's been following up with a social worker as recently as yesterday to go over those events again and that she's stuck there.

Is your counselor asking you to talk about these things, or is this something she's perseverating on by herself? I don't see any plausible outcome where you guys fight this battle again and somehow come out in better shape. My focus would be to try to get your wife to leave this in the past and focus on the problems that are happening today.

Is this your wife's typical pattern (to brood over and re-fight the same battles)? Has there been any technique that has broken her of it?

[formflier]

Strategies to end it:  Stop talking about it, or "show her the proof".  

Stop talking about it is the kindest.  Yes there has been some kind of rumination that she did on her own.  No prompting from anyone.

Sunday morning she was talking about the power that she and her Aunt have to "tell when people are lying".  I didn't bite or engage.  Gently directed away after listening and being present.  I did NOT reflect this back to her.  Just listened... .

My memory is that she believed I was lying about my thoughts on a book I just read "Cold Case Christianity"  or something related to it.  It was so disjointed, I couldn't follow.  Rest of the day was great.

Then she believed I lied about a conversation when I wanted to leave the grass long and keep spraying for weeds, vice mow right now.  I wanted plenty of leaf to soak up the spray... .versus the cut stalk.   (Backstory:  Have some resistant weeds, been trying different product... .and yes we got them killed... .finally.)  

She believes that I "forbade" her from mowing the lawn.  I believe she asked if it was time and I said I would rather wait, since it was dry, grass not growing, and we had lots of weeds to kill.

She snuck this one in on me.  Normally I wouldn't take the bait, but it was like... ."explain again why we waited to cut grass" or something like that.  No hint of bad or arguing over past events.

After it was clear she wanted to argue about it I said.  "I'm fine with us having different points of view on the conversation"  She said there is no point of view... .there is the truth.  I didn't re-engage.

A day or so later, she tried to bring it up again.  I stayed big picture and said that I respected her point of view and wouldn't debate it.  She stuck with it and ramped up to talking about SS.  I left it.

Biblical Counselor wanted us to read this thing, and that is her response.

That's about all I know.  

FF

[KateCat]

Your poor wife!

The more I read of your experiences, the less practical difference I see between living with someone with a paranoid version of schizophrenia (which is my situation) and living with a person who presumably only has paranoid delusions and not paranoid hallucinations (your likely situation).

The endless return in the sufferer's mind to prior events and situations ("perseveration". My husband probably actually "hears" conversations over and over in his head, and probably actually "participates" in those conversations when he is mumbling quietly to himself. Your wife may not do exactly this. But it might help you to imagine that she's actually reliving some of these things and trying to get a grip on what she thinks happened and what she thinks it means. Trying to find witnesses. Trying to find proof. Over and over.

I'm not sure if you can or should participate in these things. Would love to hear what your psychologist suggests, when she's had time to do her own assessment of your dilemma.

[formflier]

Yep... I'll ask her.

[Cat Familiar]

Strategies to end it:  Stop talking about it, or "show her the proof".  

Stop talking about it is the kindest.  Yes there has been some kind of rumination that she did on her own.  No prompting from anyone.

This is a tough one, FF. Thinking about your wife's paranoia dredges up memories of my mother having similar paranoid ideations about me lying.

Once she was adamant that I was lying about having been at the beach because I returned home and wasn't "browned" or sunburnt. I told her I had worn a hat, covered up and applied sunscreen, and even showed her these items, but she knew I was lying anyway.

Another time when she and my father drove hundreds of miles to visit me, months later she said that I had sent them away. I had done no such thing, though I probably felt like it at the time based upon her behavior. She clung to this version of events for years.

Once she called me and I made the mistake of answering the phone as I was rushing off to work. I ended the conversation rather quickly. Later she claimed that I was "on drugs." I admitted that I was "on coffee" but the "you're on drugs" meme lasted for years after that incident.

So from my experience with a pwBPD with a side of paranoia, showing "the proof" did nothing to dissuade my mother from her skewed version of history, and that history was always fresh, as though it recently happened, even though she would change the details to fit the current circumstances. There was no way for me to refute it and any protestations further underscored my guilt in her mind.

[empath]

Do you have a copy of the voluntary separation agreement?

If there were orders by SS regarding you, there would be documentation of that, and they can share parts of it with permission. My niece is a social worker in child protective services.

For my husband, i think he has difficulty remembering facts properly when he is highly emotional. So, his version of events are distorted, and sometimes he doesn't really recall much. The problem with documentation is that it is invalidating and he feels like something is really wrong with him and goes on attack. I think there are 'big deal' issues that have to be addressed; this is one because it could have legal consequences. Other issues, I would let slide.

He also claims to know what I intend or mean - and it usually has no basis in what I actually say.

[MaybeSo]

I just don't understand why God wants me to trust, have sex with, and obey a man who looks me in the eyes and lies again and again. I talked with our social worker yesterday... .left a message with her a couple months ago.  She confirmed FF was indeed asked to leave our home and was not allowed to see the children without another adult present. She said she would be happy to speak with FF and confirm what happened for him but she cannot write anything about our case in an email or letter. I told him this and he still does not admit he is being untruthful about what happened. So dying every day really means I trust him anyway, have sex with him even though he lies to me and about me whenever it gets him what he wants, and obey him happily even when I believe his decisions are selfish and self serving?  The gospel primer was clear... .but I need to know for sure I have this right. FFWife

This is about her fear and lack of trust.   It's not about grass or the kids or the SS involvement.  This has likely been with her for a very long time.

Any intimate relationship has the potential to rub up against already existing fears concerning trust.

This is about fear that she cannot trust (her partner  to be honest and her) and her own internal conflict about risking a trusting stance in the world.  This is her internal struggle.  How to trust.  She fears what will happen to her if her trust is broken?  Will she be able to survive? Will it kill her if her trust is broken or she is lied to?   This is a painful and scary place inside of her.  

On a more superficial level, you both have your own perspective about shared experiences.  That is normal, my perception of my drive to work this morning will not be the same as my partners perspective who is sitting right next to me in the same car.  That is normal.  When couples are fearful and have low differentiation... .they argue over differences in perception b/c the differences are perceived as threatening. Any differences highlight how this person is separate ... . in low differentiated couples, separation is seen as a threat, and so the details become fodder for ongoing battles.

I would probably stay away from battling about details and try to hear and validate her felt experience.  

When you say you prefer not to cut the grass... .her perception is that she was forbidden from doing something.  She makes mention in her quote above... .about needing to obey her husband even though he lies... .

There are cues to her felt experience here.  

Fear of trusting.

Fear of being lied to/betrayed.

Fearful themes of being in a one-down, subjugated position where she is to "obey" her H, where her husband may "forbid" her from doing something.  These are power themes, where she identifies and fears being in a one-down position to another person who has power-over her.  These are themes and fears that she has come by honestly, even if it doesn't make sense to you.   It's not helpful to personalize anything, but to appreciate that people have baggage and that baggage shows up as themes and fears that get played-out.  If you personalize and battle her on it, we unwittingly hook into and reinforce the themes that were already there... .reinforcing her fears.

Emotional validation keeps us unhooked from another person's themes.

If you were arguing facts in court, your approach of course would be different. But, I don't think you are going to court with her over any of this?

[Fian]

Is it possible that you could agree on a couple of facts and then show how perceptions shape things around the facts?  For example, did the government force you out of the house, or did you both voluntarily sign a document agreeing to it?  If it was a voluntary agreement, you can both explain why each of you signed it.  her perception on why you signed it will differ from yours.  It is probably a long shot with a person with paranoia, but maybe it can help her understand your side better.