Two more weeks

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well, we have 2 more weeks until the hearing.  On Father's Day weekend, when DH sent a text to DSS15 saying he was looking forward to the weekend with DSS15, DSS15 sent an absolutely hateful text back.  Then we saw that DSS was way out of town (social media posts) so I am guessing they had no intention of following the court order for Father's Day.

But, of course, when BPD mom DID come to counseling (to sort of follow the order), she said that DH never even bothered to get DSS15 (um, he was not in town).  I told DH he needs to be more obvious for the July pick up.  :)SS15 refused to go in the counselor's office so the counselor met with BPD mom, DSS15 and DSD19.  BPD mom keeps talking about how she is not alienating DSS15 like the judge said; DSD19 says there is no such diagnosis; counselor says that when a child is refusing contact with a parent, there is generally alienation going on.  I have to wonder what the kids think when they are being told by all kinds of professionals (the judge and two counselors) that their mom is an alienator.  Of course, BPD mom says derogatory things about DH right there in front of the kids without even realizing it.  The counselor kept talking about how BPD mom and DH have "very different narratives" about what is going on.  :)SS15 got uncomfortable a little more than halfway into it and walked out of the office completely.  

But I think THAT is it... .that is the whole problem.  BPD mom has this pretty delusional story she is telling, and DSS15 (and DSD19) has a choice to believe the crazy story OR to lose his mom.  And the inner conflict is great.  The counselor told us that she thinks that mom believes her stories.

What irks me is the counselor asked us after the session why we had alcohol at my DD's graduation party since we knew that would be distorted; I told her we did not have ONE OUNCE of alcohol there.  BUT that is what BPD mom is claiming; in fact, she is claiming we were drinking during the whole party--we were drinking soda, not alcohol.  WOW... .this is beyond ridiculous.  Besides DH getting a alcohol test to PROVE he has not had a lick of alcohol in months, we are now going to have a friend from the party to testify that we had no alcohol there at all.  Was she going to have DSS18 lie and testify that we did have alcohol there?

Now to see what happens when DH goes to pick up DSS15 for July visitation.  I am guessing we will not get DSS15, and there will be drama.

[sanemom]

Well, we have 2 more weeks until the hearing.  On Father's Day weekend, when DH sent a text to DSS15 saying he was looking forward to the weekend with DSS15, DSS15 sent an absolutely hateful text back.  Then we saw that DSS was way out of town (social media posts) so I am guessing they had no intention of following the court order for Father's Day.

But, of course, when BPD mom DID come to counseling (to sort of follow the order), she said that DH never even bothered to get DSS15 (um, he was not in town).  I told DH he needs to be more obvious for the July pick up.  :)SS15 refused to go in the counselor's office so the counselor met with BPD mom, DSS15 and DSD19.  BPD mom keeps talking about how she is not alienating DSS15 like the judge said; DSD19 says there is no such diagnosis; counselor says that when a child is refusing contact with a parent, there is generally alienation going on.  I have to wonder what the kids think when they are being told by all kinds of professionals (the judge and two counselors) that their mom is an alienator.  Of course, BPD mom says derogatory things about DH right there in front of the kids without even realizing it.  The counselor kept talking about how BPD mom and DH have "very different narratives" about what is going on.  :)SS15 got uncomfortable a little more than halfway into it and walked out of the office completely.  

But I think THAT is it... .that is the whole problem.  BPD mom has this pretty delusional story she is telling, and DSS15 (and DSD19) has a choice to believe the crazy story OR to lose his mom.  And the inner conflict is great.  The counselor told us that she thinks that mom believes her stories.

What irks me is the counselor asked us after the session why we had alcohol at my DD's graduation party since we knew that would be distorted; I told her we did not have ONE OUNCE of alcohol there.  BUT that is what BPD mom is claiming; in fact, she is claiming we were drinking during the whole party--we were drinking soda, not alcohol.  WOW... .this is beyond ridiculous.  Besides DH getting a alcohol test to PROVE he has not had a lick of alcohol in months, we are now going to have a friend from the party to testify that we had no alcohol there at all.  Was she going to have DSS18 lie and testify that we did have alcohol there?

Now to see what happens when DH goes to pick up DSS15 for July visitation.  I am guessing we will not get DSS15, and there will be drama.

[ForeverDad]

DH better not go alone.  He can't do anything that might be misconstrued as abusive.  And he should be prepared to have the police come, perhaps having them on standby, either to 'encourage' compliance with the court order or to get a police report on the events.  Yes, it would create or ramp up the incident but documentation is necessary and maybe the police presence might deflate mother's influence.

[Thunderstruck]

It's a party, why couldn't you have alcohol there? As long as you were serving it to adults that were of age then there should be no issue. But yes yes I know, I know. We are dealing with a distorted person who twists having a beer with dinner into a raging alcohol problem. Better to be sober than sorry.

What bothers me is that the counselor knew that mom "distorts" things, but you still feel you have to go out of your way to prove what you said was true. That's garbage. The burden of proof should be on her!

I agree with ForeverDad, it might be a good idea to have an officer with DH for the exchange just to cover his rump. What are the exchange terms, is DH supposed to go over to BPDmom's house to get DSS? I think I said this about Father's Day (or maybe I just thought it) but I wouldn't expect July visitation. BPDmom has this alternate reality that she is living "It's all DSS, I try to get him to comply but he refuses to go". If July visitation happened then that would be against her reality and she just can't have that happen.

The kids probably think all the professionals are being manipulated by DH or on his side or paid to lie? Whatever story BPD mom gives them. So basically the counseling session was BPDmom badmouthing DH and her and DSD telling distorted truths? How is that supposed to help the alienation? DSS needs to be away from them so he can be deprogramed.

[Nope]

It'll be interesting to see what the judge does. She should be completely out of chances at this point. I'm sorry SS15 chose his mom over reality. I can't help but think something more should have been done on the front end with counseling to make the boys less susceptible to their mom's distortions. But that ship has sailed. Getting the kid back and getting him back in touch with reality is critical, if at all possible.

[sanemom]

It'll be interesting to see what the judge does. She should be completely out of chances at this point. I'm sorry SS15 chose his mom over reality. I can't help but think something more should have been done on the front end with counseling to make the boys less susceptible to their mom's distortions. But that ship has sailed. Getting the kid back and getting him back in touch with reality is critical, if at all possible.

Thanks for the suggestion about the police--I don't think we would have thought of that; I am sure at this point the story would be he showed up drunk to pick him up or something;

I agree with you about the counseling--I don't think the counselor saw the manipulation at first at all--BPD mom is so subtle.  The boys' complaints about our house seemed realistic so she saw them as genuine.  But yes, that would have been good.  DSS18 just last week was trying to tell me that we didn't go to a national landmark that we DID go to just last year... .it is like his mom somehow started a conversation about what WE did on vacation and tried to convince him we didn't go.  I don't get how she manages to do that with an 18 year old, but today I reposted the picture of all of us in front of that landmark last year on facebook.

[bravhart1]

I don't know how you hold it together with all these lies. And I agree, why is counselor asking you why you had booze at the party. Shouldn't she be asking BPDm how she knew there was alcohol, was she questioning the kids?

I think I would have (wrongly) just replied that the only person who was drinking at your party was BPDm who brought her own.

[bravhart1]

And if you remember a couple of years ago BPDm was "claiming" my DH was drunk at every exchange.

We were also being put under the microscope with the counselor because of her lies. We just stated to the counselor that if BPDm truly felt DH was drinking when he picked up or dropped off SD, and she didn't call the police immediately then we worry about her ability to protect SD.

We also INSISTED that BPDm make her accusation right then and there so that DH could call the police and get a breath test to dispute her claims or she should cease and desist making them.

She never brought it up again 

[sanemom]

As a pre-emptive strike, we sent DH’s recently taken 3-month hair alcohol test that shows him as being in the “teetotaler range” to the CPS investigator. 

I am sure I sound paranoid to most, but I could see both BM and her attorney telling the CPS investigator right before the hearing how we were all drinking at the graduation party causing her to doubt her testimony that BM is making stuff up.

Since we are petitioner this time (a first for us), our side goes first so I guess we are going to have to talk about the accusation  and defend it before she accuses us.

[Nope]

As a pre-emptive strike, we sent DH’s recently taken 3-month hair alcohol test that shows him as being in the “teetotaler range” to the CPS investigator. 

I am sure I sound paranoid to most, but I could see both BM and her attorney telling the CPS investigator right before the hearing how we were all drinking at the graduation party causing her to doubt her testimony that BM is making stuff up.

Since we are petitioner this time (a first for us), our side goes first so I guess we are going to have to talk about the accusation  and defend it before she accuses us.

Honestly, I think that's better. If you can nip everything in the bud before she gets a chance to say it then she'll stand there and make her emotional claims with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back any of it up and then you have a better chance that it will be actively ignored as it's coming out of her mouth, rather than listened to and considered first and then you are on the defense against it. However, that being said, don't take up too much of the court's time defending yourself because that leaves you with less time to make your actual case, which is that kiddo needs moved. Now.

[PinkieV]

I don't know how you keep it together!

My SS16 (just turned) is just now coming into his own, after 2.5 years of living with us

and weekly, then biweekly, counseling.  Just last night, we were celebrating his

successful DMV driving test, and he really started opening up about just how much his

uBPDm had screwed up his young life, and that in all honesty, he never wants to see

her again.  That is a huge admission from a kid who "presented like an abused foster

child" per his counselor, and would never talk about his mom at all.

We are incredibly lucky that she lives two states away and has limited funds for flights

(we share the cost).  He just might squeak through summer without having to visit.

We also "gave him permission" to not answer his phone when his mom calls.  We've

found that she rarely texts, and we assume when she calls there is not-so-subtle

alienation and abuse still happening, but no one can prove anything.  His eyes opened

wide, he obviously had never thought of not answering. We want him to start setting

his own boundaries with her so that he can manage his relationship on his own as he

grows older, and also learn how to manage his younger half-sister, who is a chip off

the old BPD block.

I hope your stepkids are able to move on from this somehow.  It was 10+ years of

severe alienation for my DH.

[sanemom]

BPD mom just responded to DH's email about his summer possession tomorrow, and she is sounding like she is going to be cooperative for once.

I hope the judge doesn't ignore all of her misbehavior just because she decides to behave 5 days prior to the hearing.

Any words of wisdom for having a 15 year old over whose last words to his dad were insanely hateful via text?  This will be interesting.

[ForeverDad]

Even though our High Conflict days are, hopefully, in the past I recently bought myself a voice recorder that can record hundreds of hours.  My old recorders held only a few hours.  I really chose it because it can record FM broadcasts but I purchased it with both purposes in mind.

However, it's a touchy issue to record a minor.  Perhaps you could phrase it as David and others have written, "I record myself to prove I'm not misbehaving and if others are also on it and misbehaving, well... ."

[Thunderstruck]

BPD mom just responded to DH's email about his summer possession tomorrow, and she is sounding like she is going to be cooperative for once.

I hope the judge doesn't ignore all of her misbehavior just because she decides to behave 5 days prior to the hearing.

Any words of wisdom for having a 15 year old over whose last words to his dad were insanely hateful via text?  This will be interesting.

DH is supposed to have him for how long, the whole month? BM is probably promising DSS15 that he'll only have to stay until the hearing.

With the crazy accusations lately, it might not be such a bad idea to record yourselves. Or make sure there are witnesses around.

[sanemom]

Oh my... .BPD mom is asking for DH to pay athletic fees that are due today for DSS.  No wonder she is being nice.

[bravhart1]

^^maybe take a page out of her playbook, and don't respond. Maybe you didn't read you email yet.

Our BPDm fires her therapist then hires her back( promising to try to work the program set out for her) the days before any court action and then fires her the day after. She's done it so many times the therapist just takes her money and tells the truth.

[Thunderstruck]

When is the exchange? How is it looking?

[sanemom]

When is the exchange? How is it looking?

Looks like he is coming... .don't know much yet, just that he got in the car.  We are planning to go out to eat tonight.

[sanemom]

Just kidding---DSS15 just came to the car and said he was not going.  My DD18 was so mad that she texted him (and told me later).  Part of her text was "as someone who has a father who has missed my graduation, missed my last dance recital, and a ton of other stuff this past 18 years, your actions are pissing me off. You have a dad who loves you and is trying to be a part of your life and all you can do is be angry and full of hate... ." and she ended with "Maybe if you actually showed up instead of creating a false reality in your head, you'd realize how utterly stupid you're acting."

Part of DSS15's response to her was "I am selfish and apathetic and couldn't be happier... .You're not worth my time."

My DD18 is so upset... .they used to be so close just a few months ago and now this.

To me, all it does is prove our point.  To be honest, I was a little worried about him coming to our house before the judge instituted some kind of court protection.  I didn't want him to make up any more crazy stories for CPS.

[Thunderstruck]

Figures. 

The same thing happened to us tonight. Not very happy times in the Thunderstruck household. Ugh.  :'(

[sanemom]

Figures.  

The same thing happened to us tonight. Not very happy times in the Thunderstruck household. Ugh.  :'(

What happened?  You can't leave it at that, Thunderstruck, after I spill my guts out.  LOL!

The only good thing about it is it further proves our point that he is being alienated AND we don't have to worry about any crazy stories he may create.

DSS18 came out and talked with DH.  He said he would get off work for our family trip, and he asked if grandpa was mad about "all of this."  Clearly he knows this is messed up.

[Nope]

Selfish and apathetic and couldn't be happier? Poor kid is completely emotionally shut down. He doesn't want to deal with what is real so he just simply won't.  :'(

[Thunderstruck]

Oh, , I didn't want to hijack your thread with our drama. Here the whole story is: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295884.0

Short term loss, long term gain for you guys. Lack of cooperation even with a hearing in a few days. This won't go well for BPDmom.

[sanemom]

Oh, , I didn't want to hijack your thread with our drama. Here the whole story is: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295884.0

Short term loss, long term gain for you guys. Lack of cooperation even with a hearing in a few days. This won't go well for BPDmom.

I hope you are right, and the judge does something, but what can he do when an almost 16 year old is this off the rails?

[Thunderstruck]

How is it going? Have you had the court date yet?

[ForeverDad]

I hope you are right, and the judge does something, but what can he do when an almost 16 year old is this off the rails?

Maybe it's time for the judge to meet your son and lay the law down?  After all, family court is the Real Authority.  It's called an in camera interview, though typically it's to get a feel for the child, since judges seldom (need to) meet the children.

[sanemom]

We got to present our side today... .BPD mom's side will be presented Friday.  DCFS testified that BPD mom keeps calling; counselor testified that alienation is way worse now, and that kids really work hard at protecting their mom.  DH got to testify and admitted he did fall apart and wasn't coping well after losing DSD but he has picked himself back up this year and is doing much better.  Judge was clearly not paying as much attention when opposing counsel was talking in general--I happen to be aware through other channels that the judge does not like her lawyer.  I don't think her lawyer prepped really--it was more like she wrote questions, he asked them, and he repeated himself over and over again.  The judge rolled his eyes many times when he was talking.

We got the court appointed counselor on the stand, and when she testified that BPD mom's lawyer threatened to sue her, I could almost see smoke coming out of the judge's ears.  That is when he decided to stop for lunch, and I think he had an ex parte chewing out of the lawyer, but I am not sure.  All I know is her lawyer was not pushing the counselor too much when he returned.

One weird thing the other lawyer did was go through DH's affidavit to point out that DH didn't know all of the information in there directly, but by going through it point by point, he was presenting our case.  For instance, in the affidavit DH talked about how BPD mom convinced the boys to go through our room, take pictures of our prescriptions, and text the pictures to her.  The lawyer read how all of that happened to make the point that DH did not know directly that BPD mom is the one who convinced the boys to do that.  Maybe I am missing something, but I thought that was a dumb move (especially since it is likely the judge didn't read it in the first place so now his attention is brought to her alienating tactics--and I am thinking that taking pictures of medications in our room and texting them to mom is a pretty huge red flag).

The other thing was that opposing counsel kept saying that this was all about money for us... .and I kept wondering if the judge could tell that really, with all of their talk about money, that it is all about money for her.

And you remember how they never signed it, but then they tried to get the case transferred to another county?  Well, apparently, there is a 6 month residency requirement to transfer it; judge had also given our side a 6 month requirement to modify if not going well.  So when our attorney pointed that out to the judge, and how we couldn't file anything until we reached the six month mark, the judge got this big smile/smirk of realization on his face.  Judge said, "So really, there is no order here." 
Her lawyer:"Your Honor, you rendered an order in November." 
Judge: "But did I sign it?" 
Her lawyer: "No, but you made a final order." 
Judge: Big smile--"But it's not signed, is it?  So there is no order."

I think he was catching on to their games.

Still have no clue what he will do, though.

[Nope]

There needs to be an eating popcorn emoji. You have to keep us up to date on how this plays out. My bet? She's gonna get her ass fried

[Thunderstruck]

Sounds good so far! 

I really don't know what BPDmom can say that will help her case at all. You have experts who already testified that her claims (drug, etc allegations against DH, DSS is the one who doesn't want to go, etc) are bogus.

[sanemom]

Sounds good so far!  

I really don't know what BPDmom can say that will help her case at all. You have experts who already testified that her claims (drug, etc allegations against DH, DSS is the one who doesn't want to go, etc) are bogus.

I know!  And she brought all three kids to hang out in the hallway at court with her... .two are supposedly going to testify (DSS18 and DSD19), but I can't see anything they could help with either.  Her lawyer claimed that DSS18 was going to testify that he didn't like counseling and counseling was all about DH.  Ummm... .ok... cuz none of that makes you look like an alienator.

[FamilyLaw]

   
Sanemom, you deserve all the hugs and support out there.  No one should have to put up with what you and your husband have.  I truly hope the Judge sees the forest for the trees and really helps out your DSD.