Trying to make sense of last night and I cannot do it.

[jrharvey]

I want to start off by saying I acted very wrong. I am actually scared of myself now. I let her get to my emotions and hurt me and I reacted horrible. I became a monster. I let myself down terribly and did something I never thought I would do. Im lost and scared of what will happen now.

It was a good day. My girlfriend was having a good day and we were loving and sweet to each other. Because she is very paranoid she wants me to tell her when anyone text me. Its kind of an absurd rule but its something that made her feel better and I agreed long before I knew what BPD was. My friend asked me to hang out that day but me and my GF had plans to cook. I just ignored the text. I told my GF about my friend texting me and she was ok. Later that night we were about to cook. She left the room to use the bathroom for a while and my friend said "What no answer?". I still didnt respond and went on with washing food and cutting for our dinner. Later she came out and we got into a conversation about something and my friends text was gone and out of mind. We had a good night. While we were in bed and about to sleep after a passionate crazy love making session she asked if my friend texted me. I said "Oh yeah he did but just to say no answer? and I didnt respond". No big deal. To her it was a big deal. She started asking why would I hide it. I knew it was about to start so I prepared.

She started probing and searching for inconcistincies. She asked why didn't I tell her. I said because you weren't around and it slipped my mind. I wasn't trying to hide anything but I got distracted with cooking. She started telling me she never left the room. I said yes you did. You were gone for about 15 minutes. She called me a liar and I was hiding something. At that point I said woah this is going too far. I dont think this conversation is going well and i feel like a fight is coming. Can we please slow down. I asked why is she worried and how can we get to the real issue. She said the real issue is that I am lying. She starts asking again and again. I tell her this is going bad and its not worth fighting and to please stop. She said I was avoiding the question because I was hiding something.

After that I got up and said I have to work in the morning and its already late. I cant fight tonight. Im so tired and Im sorry. This will only be a bad fight that isnt worth it. I said... .Is it really worth it for you? She said yes it worth it. I got up out of bed and went into the living room. She slammed the bedroom door so hard it took the hinges off the wall and got in bed. I tried hard to ignore but I couldnt. I stormed back in and yelled as loud as I could ":)ont ever damage my property or disrespect me like that again"! She got up in my face and said my mom wished I never existed because I was just like my dad. I dont know where this came from or why she said it. At that point I was angry and wanted to hurt her and knew children were very important so I said I will never have kids with you. She looked very hurt. I walked away but she got up and grabbed my arm just scratching and biting. Then she started punching the back of my head. I pushed her off of me. She grabbed a ceramic vase and hit me in the head with it. I lost it. I turned into a monster. I pushed her down. She spit on me. I spit on her. I held her down and slapped her in the face. Not just once but I kept doing it until she started crying. Then I realized what I had done and tried to walk away. I was shaking I had never done anything like that before even though she has physically attacked me about 6 times like this.

She was just fake crying. She got up and started kicking and screaming and punching me with so much rage. I actually picked her up and slammed her down and held her down until she calmed down this whole time screaming at her to never touch me again and never lay a hand on me again. She struggled for a few minutes calling me names and trying to hit me. She almost broke her hand trying to hit me so hard. I held her down until she stopped and was too exhausted to fight anymore.

Then suddenly a switch flipped. Her rage was gone. She was calm and appologized. She acted like nothing happened. She was trying to hug me and kiss me and trying to clean my wounds where she bit me on the arm and made me bleed. I was just in shock. I didnt know what to do. I was so confused I just went along with it. She said please dont hate me. I didnt mean to fight tonight. I asked why she acted so extreme. She said i wasnt making sense and it made her upset. All this time she was hugging and kissing my arm. WTH! In the past I would have been very angry but now that I know about BPD I just felt sad. I felt helpless and I ACTUALLY FELT BAD FOR HER! Why? Why do I feel bad for her? I just dont know.

Ive never let myself get violent before. And now when I think I am understanding BPD and I should be able to control myself better I lose control. How is this possible? How can I let myself lose control like this knowing that this is the BPD?

Im scared of myself now. Im not a safe person like I thought I was. Im not in as much control as I thought.

Now I am at work. She has been texting me all day apologizing and saying how much she loves me. I dont know what to do. I dont know where to go from here. I promised her I wouldn't abandon her a month ago. I promised Id never throw her out. I love her but Im clearly not myself with her. Im clearly not sane or in control. Im sorry.

[Lifewriter16]

You've been courageous posting this here. It's important to own our own contribution to these situations.

You say that you don't know what to do. What are you thinking the possibilities might be from this point and what does each have to recommend it?

LW

[schwing]

Hi jrharvey,

... .She said the real issue is that I am lying.

The episode you described above, I believe, is an example of her acting on her disordered fear of abandonment.  I've noticed that for people with BPD (pwBPD), their disordered fear that we will leave them can be triggered by feelings of familiarity (family) and intimacy.  So in my opinion, it is not a coincidence that this started up after what would otherwise have been a very nice night together.

You did not behave in any manner that should cause her to fear that you would leave her.  But this is the disordered fear that she is reacting to.  This is why she insists on knowing who texts you -- because she is afraid that there will always be someone who will cause you to abandon/leave her; and she is trying to avoid this *imagined* abandonment.

The problem is there is nothing you can do that would assuage these feelings.  Even worse, she is inclined to believe that her disordered feelings are there because of your behavior.  This is why she chooses to believe that the "real issue" is that you are "lying."

I would argue that the more effort you put into trying to quell her fear, the more you try to commit to her, or prove to her that you have no intention to abandon her, the more she will become triggered to experience this fear of abandonment.  This is part of the nature of this disorder.

... .She got up in my face and said my mom wished I never existed because I was just like my dad. I dont know where this came from or why she said it.

This oblique comment might be an example of "severe dissociative behavior" which is one of the criteria for the diagnosis of this disorder.  Even though she's talking to you, she's probably projecting and really talking about herself.  She probably blurted this out because she is in the middle of having an overwhelming experience which really has nothing to do with you, but she is choosing to attribute to you because the truth behind why she feels this way is perhaps way more than she can emotionally handle.

... .I walked away but she got up and grabbed my arm just scratching and biting. Then she started punching the back of my head... .She grabbed a ceramic vase and hit me in the head with it. I lost it. I turned into a monster. ... .She got up and started kicking and screaming and punching me with so much rage. I actually picked her up and slammed her down and held her down until she calmed down this whole time screaming at her to never touch me again and never lay a hand on me again... .She almost broke her hand trying to hit me so hard. I held her down until she stopped and was too exhausted to fight anymore.

Then suddenly a switch flipped. Her rage was gone. She was calm and appologized.

I wonder if this episode of violence had the equivalent result of self-injury that some pwBPD use as a means of calming.  In any case, this "switch" is perhaps yet another example of "severe dissociative behavior."  Suddenly she was disconnected from what she was feeling.

She acted like nothing happened. She was trying to hug me and kiss me and trying to clean my wounds where she bit me on the arm and made me bleed. I was just in shock.

And here's where you really really need to watch out.  This time she reconciled with you.  You don't know if she will reconcile with you next time, if you allow for a next time to happen.  There have been members of these forums who have been potentially set-up in a domestic violence situation where it looked really really bad to a police officer... to an attorney... to a social worker... to a judge.  The situation you were in would look really really bad if a police officer had been summoned for any reason.  You could have been locked up.  You could have lost your employment.  It can always get worse.  And even though you reacted in self-defense, she could just as easily "disconnect" that information from her memory and from her sincere (albeit distorted) perspective, you just attacked her and she's just a victim.

And the aftermath of that scenario will not end well for you.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[jrharvey]

You've been courageous posting this here. It's important to own our own contribution to these situations.

You say that you don't know what to do. What are you thinking the possibilities might be from this point and what does each have to recommend it?

LW

Im thinking... .

Should I give in to her biggest fear and abandon her? Has this gone too far? Should I leave or end this torture before she gets me in trouble? One day will I lose control again and seriously hurt her by accident? Will it happen again? Will she have me arrested? Will she hurt me? Will she hurt my dog? When she destroy my career?

Should I stay? Should i try to learn more about the disorder and somehow make it work? Should I read more and more and more until I cant read anymore and learn ways to make this a success story? Is there really such thing as a success story?

Thats what I am thinking the possibilities are.

[schwing]

Should I give in to her biggest fear and abandon her?

You don't "give in" to other people's fears.  If you choose to end the relationship, it will be for reasons associated with how the relationship is progressing and/or not working for you.  It is only abandonment if you just pick up and leave for no justifiable reason.  Unfortunately, no matter how much you try to explain if/why you would go, how much you try to soften the pain of separation for her, she will *still* react to it as if it was an abandonment.  Don't expect her to take it well.  Then again, don't underestimate her ability to take care of herself. 

If you start to contemplate that you want to leave her, she will know days or weeks before you even decide.

Has this gone too far?

Hasn't it?  How much more do you need to see of yourself before you decide it's too much?

Should I leave or end this torture before she gets me in trouble?

This is something you will need to decide for yourself.  But if I had your experience, I would consider it a very serious wake-up call.

One day will I lose control again and seriously hurt her by accident? Will it happen again? Will she have me arrested? Will she hurt me? Will she hurt my dog? When she destroy my career?

I don't know if any of these things will happen.  But I know that many of these things have happened to others who are involved with people with BPD (pwBPD).

Should I stay? Should i try to learn more about the disorder and somehow make it work? Should I read more and more and more until I cant read anymore and learn ways to make this a success story? Is there really such thing as a success story?

Whatever you decide.  Get help.  You should get a therapist for yourself.  It's up to you to decide if you have enough wherewithal to help her as well as yourself.  Then again, you cannot help someone who is unwilling to help themselves.

[jrharvey]

Then again, you cannot help someone who is unwilling to help themselves.

We did see a counselor before. We got 3 sessions in. I didnt know about BPD. During session 2 he started asking a lot of questions about her past and focused more on her. After session 3 she said he was not helping and wanted to leave.

[Black Dog House]

There is not a lot I can add that doesn't echo the observations made by schwing. I would like to provide you with something to ponder.

I'm not sure where you live, but in the US especially, there is an unfortunate and misguided gender bias concerning DV, as you may well know, if that is where you live. It's quite scary. Even in a situation where you are protecting yourself, the law is not on your side.

Do not beat yourself up about this. Although I've never been in a physical altercation to the degree of yours, I've been in a few scraps with more than one female. You must also keep in mind that this was not an isolated assault on you nervous system. You are continuously stressed out in that relationship, guaranteed. I mean, she's monitoring your text messages? That's pretty stressful and controlling behavior, and you must know that, right? I don't know all the details of your relationship, but the fact she attacked you with that degree of ferocity she has says everything. And you cite 6 physical fights. Think this one was your last?

Disordered women are pushing your buttons all the time. If you stay in a relationship long enough, you become increasingly aclimated to the tension until it becomes background noise. There are those varieties of disordered women who are looking for a fight, intentionally taking emotional body shots and sucker punches until they get what they wish for. This is for real. And no matter how much self-control you may have in other areas of life, with other people, it is not uncommon for men to snap sooner or later if provoked enough. My ex attacked me once and I never tried to shame her for it. But after a crazy-making episode where I threw a couple wine glasses at the wall she was shaming me for having a violent temper. They do not fight fair, and most will blame you. That's why they call them disturbed, right?

You are naturally freaked out right now, and rightly so. I've been there, as well. My adrenaline pumping for hours afterwards and I couldn't believe the absurdity of what I had been through. Most men do not want to hit a woman, it's culturally engrained in us, making the experience that much more shaming. However, is this healthy for you? Do you see it ending? One reason I left my ex is the degree of her anger and insensitivity was escalatng over time. I began imagining what she might become capable of if I stayed too long. A few months back she threw me out during an argument in a dissociative state, saying she would call the police if I did not leave, screaming she hated me. Then she ran over to her neighbors behaving like she was out of her mind. That put real fear in me. What version of events had she explained to them after I left? If they were ever called to testify ... .?

[Grey Kitty]

  I feel for you; I've let myself get spooled up and out of control and regretted it myself too. Not quite that bad, but it is a pretty awful feeling.

If you want to stay in this relationship, you need to enforce better boundaries and prevent yourself from staying in a situation that escalates that far. I'm going to go back to the beginning, and highlight two early signs.

We had a good night. While we were in bed and about to sleep after a passionate crazy love making session she asked if my friend texted me. I said "Oh yeah he did but just to say no answer? and I didnt respond". No big deal. To her it was a big deal. She started asking why would I hide it. I knew it was about to start so I prepared.

She started probing and searching for inconcistincies. She asked why didn't I tell her. I said because you weren't around and it slipped my mind. I wasn't trying to hide anything but I got distracted with cooking. She started telling me she never left the room. I said yes you did. You were gone for about 15 minutes. She called me a liar and I was hiding something. At that point I said woah this is going too far. I dont think this conversation is going well and i feel like a fight is coming. Can we please slow down. I asked why is she worried and how can we get to the real issue. She said the real issue is that I am lying. She starts asking again and again. I tell her this is going bad and its not worth fighting and to please stop. She said I was avoiding the question because I was hiding something.

First, you *knew* she was spooling up and it was going to be bad, early on. One of my mantras at times like that was "nothing good can come of this." (your feeling that you knew it was going to start)

She's not going to resolve this gently or gracefully. She's going to keep pushing your buttons and attacking 'till you are ready to fight. You can't stop her from doing this.

At any time after that, and certainly before you say "please stop" it is time for you to leave the fight. Tell her clearly that you aren't discussing it anymore. Leave the room if you need to. If you are in bed, and she won't let you go to sleep, go to the couch. If she keeps following you around the house, leave the house. If you need to sleep elsewhere (a friend's couch, a hotel room, your car, whatever), do so.

Asking her NOT to do this doesn't work at times like that.

But if you had walked out at that time, you she wouldn't have busted a door in your presence, and this fight wouldn't have happened.

The key here is to know YOUR limits. Make sure you get out before you are that upset, and willing to fight back like you were.

If you aren't *sure* you can handle it, it is time to be already gone!

[jrharvey]

At any time after that, and certainly before you say "please stop" it is time for you to leave the fight. Tell her clearly that you aren't discussing it anymore. Leave the room if you need to. If you are in bed, and she won't let you go to sleep, go to the couch. If she keeps following you around the house, leave the house. If you need to sleep elsewhere (a friend's couch, a hotel room, your car, whatever), do so.

Yes I knew it was going bad. I did try to leave the room and sleep on the couch. I wanted to ignore and cool down. When I left and she slammed the door and broke my door thats when I lost it. She was destroying my personal property and I felt like I couldnt just lay down, sleep and ignore that she was destroying my house. I felt like I had to put my foot down and tell her its not acceptable. Of course she got what she wanted. She got me mad. She got me yelling and at that point she knew she could explode on me and blame me for yelling at her. She actually still says the whole fight is my fault because I yelled at her first.

[HopefulDad]

What a cluster####.  Sorry this happened between you and your GF.

I've recommended this in other threads: Practice scenarios in your head... .awful scenarios like property damage, theft, pulling a knife on you... .whatever.  Things escalating beyond your "normal" conflict resolution attempts.  Practice in your head the response you want to give, not the response your fight-or-flight instinct provides you when unprepared.  Hopefully with a prepared response, you will not have a repeat of what happened that night with your GF... .or worse.  Don't beat yourself up over what happened.  It's done.  It cannot be changed.  Instead, learn from it.

All that being said, you can become the perfect responder to such situations and that doesn't change the fact that you have zero control over her behavior.  All you can do is set boundaries and enforce them.  And those boundaries will be tested with escalating behaviors each step of the way.  We hope that our pwBPD isn't so far gone that eventually they'll hit their limit on how far they are willing to test the boundaries and back off.  But if they continue to test them, eventually the enforced boundary becomes "You are no longer welcome in my life".  Are you willing to escalate your boundary enforcement to the point of ending the relationship?  Think about this.

[Skip]

Im thinking... .

Should I give in to her biggest fear and abandon her?

Be smart. Don't end up in jail.

All she has to do is call the police and describe what happened and you could end up looking through bars. Read around we have a lot of members that lived it.

In general, you probably need to lose this idea that you are going to scare her or frighten her into treating you better. If you truly kick her internal shame and fears into gear, you will destroy any hope of having a reasonable relationship.

I dont think this conversation is going well and i feel like a fight is coming. Can we please slow down. I asked why is she worried and how can we get to the real issue. She said the real issue is that I am lying. She starts asking again and again. I tell her this is going bad and its not worth fighting and to please stop. She said I was avoiding the question because I was hiding something.

After that I got up and said I have to work in the morning and its already late. I cant fight tonight. Im so tired and Im sorry. This will only be a bad fight that isnt worth it. I said... .Is it really worth it for you? She said yes it worth it. I got up out of bed and went into the living room. She slammed the bedroom door so hard it took the hinges off the wall and got in bed. I tried hard to ignore but I couldnt. I stormed back in and yelled as loud as I could ":)ont ever damage my property or disrespect me like that again"! She got up in my face and said my mom wished I never existed because I was just like my dad. I dont know where this came from or why she said it. At that point I was angry and wanted to hurt her and knew children were very important so I said I will never have kids with you. She looked very hurt. I walked away but she got up and grabbed my arm just scratching and biting. Then she started punching the back of my head. I pushed her off of me. She grabbed a ceramic vase and hit me in the head with it. I lost it. I turned into a monster. I pushed her down. She spit on me. I spit on her. I held her down and slapped her in the face. Not just once but I kept doing it until she started crying. Then I realized what I had done and tried to walk away. I was shaking I had never done anything like that before even though she has physically attacked me about 6 times like this.  

This is the courts definition of male on female domestic violence. I highlighted a sentence that you should read and think about - I was angry and wanted to hurt her.  You are trying to manage the relationship with physical and emotional control - the screaming, the comment on no children, etc.

I'm not judging you. I'm trying to have your back.

It might be smart to book 2-3 therapist sessions right away and get in and talk this out.  One, you probably need some conflict management tools and two, if the DV get brought in the future to a third party, having the counseling will be helpful. These things tend to resurface. Three, you can start a boundaries / safety plan discussion and use the therapist as a third party reference - "The therapists says we should... ." ;

Establishing values and their accompanying boundaries is all altering the environment and reconditioning the response.

Then suddenly a switch flipped. Her rage was gone. She was calm and apologized. She acted like nothing happened.

You losing it provided her some relief. She knows she was heard.  She emotionally took you apart.  

And then she felt better.  The universe was balanced.

Please know that this was a high level fight - a little more escalation and someone could have been hospital bound. Fights tend to escalate over time if you don't nip it in the bud. Its often best to get daylight on it.  

Others can help you with this.

[Matt]

Good ideas from everybody - very hard to take but I sure wish I had these inputs when I was where you are Jr!

Background:  I was married 12 years to a woman with BPD, and we have kids together.  She was abusive but not violent... .til she got violent a couple of times, and then accused me of violence... .and I went to jail.  16 hours of hard time.  I got a lawyer and he quickly figured it out, and told me never to be alone with her again without a "non-family adult third party" present - or get myself another lawyer.

I got the charges dropped - the police had caught her lying and put that in their report - but the marriage couldn't be saved.

A few observations - what you and I and a bunch of other guys here have in common:

* Not a violent guy... .but she's so good at pushing your buttons that she breaks you.

* We sure do want to figure out a way to fix this situation!

* Our main reaction when confronted with this behavior isn't anger... .or fear... .it's confusion.  We really can't get it through our heads that someone is actually acting like this... .it's just... .so... .crazy!

In 20 states (including mine) the federal Violence Against Women Act is interpreted to mean that any time a woman accuses a man of domestic violence - even if he has bruises and she doesn't - even if the police know for sure she's lying - they are obligated to arrest and charge him.

In the other 30 states, the legal situation isn't that bad... .but in practice it's probably about the same.

Yes, you can theoretically plead innocent... .but juries are often biased against the man, and prosecutors know that, so you'll be given a plea agreement that admits guilt... .and that will follow you forever.

And in many states - like mine - even if you're acquitted, or the charges are dropped, what the internet shows - like if a potential employer does a background check - is that you were charged with Domestic Violence - and that may be enough to keep you from getting a job.  (I haven't been able to work in my previous field since that happened, even though the charges were dropped - I wasn't convicted of anything and didn't take a plea.)

The only sure way to avoid all this is to never be around the person who might start a fight with you, or make a false accusation.  That might sound extreme... .but it started making a lot of sense to me when I was in jail.  I'm hoping you can see the sense in it now, before you go to jail... .because if you stay with this woman, I think it's very likely that's where you will end up, either because you lose your temper again, or because she accuses you of something whether you did it or not.

It's very hard to give up the idea that you can fix this situation, but you can't.  There is zero chance you can have a healthy relationship with someone so disordered... .and zero chance her behavior will improve without extensive therapy.

[waverider]

Always remember your boundaries and your actions to reinforce them early.

The problem is once we know a little about BPD we tend to have too much faith in our ability to manage our responses better, so we let things go further before we act on our boundaries, by then it is too late, we are overly triggered. Onto this we are even more angry because we thought this wouldn't happen again as we should know better. We get angry at them because they have caused us to be angry and it is all channeled into an over the top reaction.

Going back to the beginning of this is you have allowed a precedent of always promising to tell her every time you get a text, this is unrealistic and you have compromised your basic rights from the get go. it is an infringement you are bound to commit sooner or later. The rest is a predictable escalation. You just lost sight of your own trigger point.

Even now I will pass my trigger point occasionally and end up at the Mr angry voice point. But i quickly recognize this and have set a precedent of making myself scarce to prevent escalation while at the same time flicking my switch off. It does take time for that to become second nature though.

Totally understand how scary it is when you take yourself somewhere like this.

Also be very aware that she now knows how to trigger you into a blame situation, and it could be done deliberately in the future, regardless of how sorry she is now. So you really need to work on stopping yourself going there ever again.

You might not get a second free pass for responding like this again. You were lucky

[Matt]

Jr,

A couple ways of thinking about this that helped me... .

* Three sources of support that can help you be stronger are family and close friends (who might not have a clue about what you're going through... .but who care about you);  professionals (like a counselor or a wise member of the clergy);  and peers (like us here - people you know who have been through similar stuff).

Do you have all three going for you?  Or do you think you could figure out how to do that?

* Distance can help.  Is there a way to establish some distance between you and your girlfriend, so you can get your feet under you and get some perspective on things?

[Herodias]

So sorry you are going through this. I have been in your shoes on the other side... luckily my ex would not try and accuse me of anything, but he did go to jail and other times, the hospital.He also told me he could tell the police I did it and I would go too. He did not which I am grateful for.  I was told to have keys and a suitcase in the car ready for me if I had to leave quickly. You have to have an exit plan. Eventually the police told me it was time to separate. They were tired of being called out. I never did anything. Most situations they say don't fight back because it will make it worse. I noticed with my ex it didn't matter. He kept on with what ever sick idea he had in his head. I could just stand there and he would still react. Several times I went running out of the house and left. Eventually I could come back when he calmed down. It's all very scary and it's awful to feel like you have to leave your own house. I would tread very carefully here. You could very well end up in jail. Then she will "feel so badly" that she put you there. How will you deal with that? Have you prepared someone to help get you out if/when that happens? I also noticed when you tell her that you will not put up with something, you do not have a consequence attached to it. Are you afraid you won't keep it? In all abuse situations, the abuse gets worse and worse. The more you put up with, the more they will try and push... .they lose respect for you. You need to respect yourself. I know this is a horrible situation you are in... .what are you going to do to protect yourself? You absolutely have to stop yourself from fighting back. Just leave and if you can not, then stand there and take it, I am sorry to tell you this, but it is the only option- no fighting back. There is talk this is what Johnny Depp has gone through with Amber Heard... .Do you see how that is turning out? We don't know for sure what happened, but she is running a smear champaign against him in what should have been a private divorce. You have to be very careful.  

[jrharvey]

Jr,

A couple ways of thinking about this that helped me... .

* Three sources of support that can help you be stronger are family and close friends (who might not have a clue about what you're going through... .but who care about you);  professionals (like a counselor or a wise member of the clergy);  and peers (like us here - people you know who have been through similar stuff).

Do you have all three going for you?  Or do you think you could figure out how to do that?

* Distance can help.  Is there a way to establish some distance between you and your girlfriend, so you can get your feet under you and get some perspective on things?

I definately agree with you. I need to spend time with family and friends. I just need to prepare for her rage of fear, accusations and anger that I am doing something without her. God forbid I spend time with my mom. She thinks Im gonna leave her forever. I just need to suck it up and deal with what she will say when I tell her Im going to visit family. I know she will ask me why about 20 times. Its not enough to just say I want to see my family. She will ask why do I want to see my family? Then she will say I am selfish leaving her alone etc... .

[Matt]

Jr,

A couple ways of thinking about this that helped me... .

* Three sources of support that can help you be stronger are family and close friends (who might not have a clue about what you're going through... .but who care about you);  professionals (like a counselor or a wise member of the clergy);  and peers (like us here - people you know who have been through similar stuff).

Do you have all three going for you?  Or do you think you could figure out how to do that?

* Distance can help.  Is there a way to establish some distance between you and your girlfriend, so you can get your feet under you and get some perspective on things?

I definately agree with you. I need to spend time with family and friends. I just need to prepare for her rage of fear, accusations and anger that I am doing something without her. God forbid I spend time with my mom. She thinks Im gonna leave her forever. I just need to suck it up and deal with what she will say when I tell her Im going to visit family. I know she will ask me why about 20 times. Its not enough to just say I want to see my family. She will ask why do I want to see my family? Then she will say I am selfish leaving her alone etc... .

Would you consider leaving her a note... .doing her the courtesy of telling her you're OK but taking some time away... .maybe not even specific about where... .and just going?

If you engage with her, there is high risk for you.

[jrharvey]

Jr,

A couple ways of thinking about this that helped me... .

* Three sources of support that can help you be stronger are family and close friends (who might not have a clue about what you're going through... .but who care about you);  professionals (like a counselor or a wise member of the clergy);  and peers (like us here - people you know who have been through similar stuff).

Do you have all three going for you?  Or do you think you could figure out how to do that?

* Distance can help.  Is there a way to establish some distance between you and your girlfriend, so you can get your feet under you and get some perspective on things?

I definately agree with you. I need to spend time with family and friends. I just need to prepare for her rage of fear, accusations and anger that I am doing something without her. God forbid I spend time with my mom. She thinks Im gonna leave her forever. I just need to suck it up and deal with what she will say when I tell her Im going to visit family. I know she will ask me why about 20 times. Its not enough to just say I want to see my family. She will ask why do I want to see my family? Then she will say I am selfish leaving her alone etc... .

Would you consider leaving her a note... .doing her the courtesy of telling her you're OK but taking some time away... .maybe not even specific about where... .and just going?

If you engage with her, there is high risk for you.

Oh no that will not go well. Just leaving without any notice or saying where? She will absolutely flip out. I mean that is like a volcano in new york. The anger from that would be uncontrollable. She lives at my house. I would fear what she would do to my stuff.

I can already see what she would say. I am going to meet a bunch of girls for some huge orgy or even worse.

Just today I talked to her for 20 minutes trying to calm her down. She was upset I got a random friend request on facebook from some random girl that doesnt even live in this country. I never have seen or heard of her. My GF was convinced I knew her or met her before and she was requesting me because she knew me. Its rough.

[Matt]

So... .how can you see things getting better?

[waverider]

You cannot negotiate your way out of this. You need to take action, and unfortunately there will be collateral damage. The fear of collateral damage is keeping you justifying and defending, ultimately undermining your own resolve.

[Matt]

You cannot negotiate your way out of this. You need to take action, and unfortunately there will be collateral damage. The fear of collateral damage is keeping you justifying and defending, ultimately undermining your own resolve.

Waverider, I'm not sure I understand - what do you mean by "collateral damage"?

[waverider]

Results of a pwBPDs "tantrums" spiteful and willful damage to property, tarnishing reputation, and all the ripples and consequences that occur as a result of saying "no", for example.

These things are always going to occur and it is difficult to fully predict, but the fear of the unknown, yet imagined, consequences stays our hand in making effective choices.

Eventually it happens anyway without even had any say in the course of events. The later we leave it the worse it is.

It started in agreeing to notify her of all texts received. That should have been the first "no". No doubt along with many other likewise deferrals in an attempt to not upset her. It increases the the spoilt sense of entitlement which creates the justification someone has to victimized outbursts with accompanying "payback" behaviors.

[Matt]

It started in agreeing to notify her of all texts received. That should have been the first "no". No doubt along with many other likewise deferrals in an attempt to not upset her. It increases the the spoilt sense of entitlement which creates the justification someone has to victimized outbursts with accompanying "payback" behaviors.

OK... .let's talk about that.

Girl says to Guy:  "Tell me about all the texts you get."

What should Guy say to Girl?

And no matter what he says... .isn't Girl likely to be upset if he doesn't do what she wants?

(In my own marriage I had this problem - Mrs. BPD Matt gave me orders constantly and if I disobeyed her orders she punished me.  I never figured out a solution!)

[waverider]

And no matter what he says... .isn't Girl likely to be upset if he doesn't do what she wants?

Yes, and there will be fall out, the longer it goes on and the further the goal post are allowed to go back the greater the consequences, the greater the feeling of injustice and the more the non reacts feeding the aggressors feeling of victimization.

You cant stop the girl being upset, it is trying to avoid it that feeds the fury. Aggressors want you to react so they can project the anger onto you in order for them to switch to aggrieved mode. You are now the bad guy, and your own conscience agrees with them. You hate yourself.

The text issue itself is most likely only symptomatic of an established sense of entitlement. I also had this issue and now only let her know if she hears a text arrive as I wont hide anything, but I refuse to have to "report in" .

If you cant establish things like this then you have to question if the relationship is worth having. It is just ongoing conflict waiting happen as expectation and resentment builds.

[jrharvey]

I really do understand the importance of setting boundaries. I also understand that I can only change my actions. The biggest thing for me is Im confused about what the best thing for me to do to set and hold a boundary when she crosses them.

I can say I think I made progress last night. She was amazingly sweet and loving all night and cooked this amazing dinner. She was loving, touching and affectionate torwards me without me doing anything. Then while we were eating randomly started saying that if she knew things would be like this when she started dating me she wished she never met me. I was very confused and stunned. I thought maybe she was thinking something and didnt mean to be so hurtful but it did hurt so I got my keys and told her Im going to the gym. Both of us were very calm. While I was driving I thought about it a lot and decided to shoot her a text saying "Ive decided I want to start dating someone who actually wants to be with me". She apologized and said she does want to be with me now and she didnt mean it the way I thought etc... .I actually agree with her that If I knew how hard this would be I would not have continued either so i kind of understand. Id never just come out and say that though because I know it would hurt her feelings.

Point of the story is that simple and very hurtful statement would have made me angry in the past and I would have argued with her but I decided its not worth it and I just left. Even if she didn't apologize I felt like I was ready to be done if she continued to be hurtful. 

I still dont understand how someone that is so sensitive to every word I say can be so reckless with her own words. The hypocrisy kills me

[Skip]

She has no filter.

Think about it. You have had serious questions about going forward - maybe more serious and focused than hers - you just don't say it.

The only difference is that she has no filter. You do.

If you had no filter, you would have said, "yeah, I'm on a website talking about how I can't be in a relationship with someone like you".

You are doing the same thing. The only difference is you have a peak into her vacillating human thoughts - she does not a peak into yours.

[jrharvey]

I agree. Is this common for BPD? Is it normal for someone with BPD to not have think about how it will make someone feel before speaking? At the same time she is so sensitive about what I say. I can say something non hurtful and she can twist it into something hurtful but she can say something very hurtful and doesnt think about how that may hurt me. Is that normal?

[Skip]

It would help to start reading the educational material on the site - even if only for 10 minutes a day.  Start with the main page.  

To answer your question... .at its core, BPD is about rejection sensitivity and lack of executive function.

The rejection sensitivity is what is driving all the accusations and more importantly, defenses. You have suggested threatening rejection (and used it - I won't have a baby with you) as a way to manage her.  This is like throwing gasoline on a candle in your living room to put it out. You need to be going the other way - building trust. She needs to know you have her back even when she is off center.  This is complicated thing to do - but just get the idea in your mind for now. Her feeling of a lack of trust will drive the end of the relationship. Building trust is not about doing as she says - its about understanding how to build trust and doing that.

The lack of executive function is explained here. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0  When your boss comes in and says, JR, that report wasn't so good - you probably think "what a jerk" but your executive function kicks in and you say - "thanks for the feedback sir - I want to do well here". If you had no executive function, you would have said "what a jerk".

[jrharvey]

The rejection sensitivity is what is driving all the accusations and more importantly, defenses. You have suggested threatening rejection (and used it - I won't have a baby with you) as a way to manage her.  This is like throwing gasoline on a candle in your living room to put it out. You need to be going the other way - building trust. She needs to know you have her back even when she is off center.  This is complicated thing to do - but just get the idea in your mind for now. Her feeling of a lack of trust will drive the end of the relationship. Building trust is not about doing as she says - its about understanding how to build trust and doing that.

I know what I said was wrong. The problem was I was so upset by what she did and said I didnt care in that moment. Thats a hard thing to change but I can do it. I know I can. I feel like that's similar to telling someone not to hit back when someone is punching you in the face. You know at that time that the smartest thing to do is leave the situation but something takes over and you start thinking how messed up it is that someone wants to hurt you that bad for no good reason and you fight back. Ughh self control. Ok I can do this.

[Matt]

I really do understand the importance of setting boundaries. I also understand that I can only change my actions. The biggest thing for me is Im confused about what the best thing for me to do to set and hold a boundary when she crosses them.

Let's talk just about boundaries... .super important and for me very difficult.

A boundary isn't a way to control the other person's behavior (though in time your boundaries might influence her behavior).

A boundary is a way for you to reduce the amount of chaos her behavior causes in your life.

Here's an example from my own experience:

I travel a lot, and my wife used to call me in the evening, and start in on me - long rants.  It upset me, kept me from working in the evening, and hurt my sleep.

Over time I learned to abruptly change the subject - "How are the kids?" - as a way to tell her, "I'm done listening to your rant."  Then if that didn't work - click!  I just hung up the phone.

My boundary was - and I never stated this to her, just put it into effect - "If she starts in on me I will hang up the phone."

Now I'm not saying that's the right boundary for you to set - your situation is your own and you have to figure out what boundaries will work for you.

Some examples might be, "If she gets violent or threatens me I will leave the house for 24 hours.";  "If she keeps me from sleeping I will lock myself in the other bedroom and sleep there.";  "If she yells at me I will leave the room." etc.  What you will do.

You can tell her your boundaries... .or just put them into action.  It's important to be consistent, and it helps to decide in advance what your boundary is... .so you're prepared.

Won't fix her.

Will help you.