Suffering in a relationship (Christian Discussion)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, I'm trying to put together some thoughts on how I approach scripture and apply that to being in a r/s with a pwBPD.

Today I was quite frustrated with the Biblical Counselor because he was calling on me to "repent" of my "sin" of not "aligning with the cornerstone" (I Peter 2:6) of Jesus and focusing on suffering well.  I did not repent and honestly didn't think I was doing anything wrong.

The basic question is what to do when my wife starts acting up.  I think there are other options than "suffering well"

Below are some of my thoughts.  Hoping some of you can help tweak them or if you see error in the way I am reading and applying scripture, please let me know.


Start of a proposed email.


I'm trying to understand better how it is that we can read the same wonderful scripture and come up with very different prescriptions for an issue in life that needs to be solved.

I have no interest in arguing or trying to box anyone into an extreme position.  My interest lies in trying to better understand when to apply different parts of the Bible.  Perhaps to make the question more accurate, in what order do I try to apply scripture.

No intent for this to be a comprehensive list but an example of how I approach scripture, specifically scripture regarding suffering in a relationship or when a wrong has been done against me.

My hope is that you can point out other ways for me to look at or approach this that I can prayerfully consider.


So, during prior conflict, I think we established today that I was not primarily focused on aligning with Jesus as a cornerstone.


Proverbs 4:23 says that Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.     I take this as something I'm supposed to be doing, vice just saying God has put me in a destructive circumstance, so I'll just suffer well.  If there is an option, such as walking away from a bad conversation, then I think that would qualify as "guarding my heart".   Because I know from experience, that the longer I am exposed to bad conversations, stuff will start to flow from my heart that is bad.   If bad stuff starts to come out of my heart, that is not the fault of the person next to me that is saying bad things... .NO... .it's my fault, I am responsible, because I did not guard my heart.

I would say this is another way of saying that I am responsible for having healthy boundaries around the type of conversations that I will or won't engage in.  If I only applied this standard to my wife, I would certainly say those are unhealthy boundaries.   But I set a standard of "guarding my heart" and hold myself and everyone else to that standard.

Now, if the situation plays out where there is no way out, then I absolutely agree that focusing on suffering well is appropriate.  Even Jesus checked to see if there was a way to let the cup pass as he declared his readiness to do the Father's will. (Mat 26:39)


Acts 22 Shows Paul's reaction to being mistreated.  I don't see where he focused on suffering well or aligning with Christ.  I see him calling out to those that are mistreating him for the law to be followed.  I see much the same when I am mistreated.  It's me calling out to follow the rules.  Especially the rules that we have agreed upon.

Romans 13 talks about submitting to authority and structures of government that God has set up or allowed to be set up.  I am in a disagreement with a government authority in (place where legal action is) and I'm submitting to and appealing to the rules that are in place to right what I consider to be an injustice there.  I think Acts 22 and Romans 13 could both apply.

Now, if I appealed and used the rules and it all goes against me, then absolutely I am called on to sufferer well, no argument at all.  It just seems to me there are better places to go in scripture first for many of the issues that I am trying to solve.


When Romans 12:18 talks about "as far as it is up to you", I get a picture of a Christian trying different things to live peaceably with their neighbors.  I get a picture of an idea that it may not be possible to live at peace with everyone.   Certainly follow on scripture makes it clear not to take revenge, but I don't get anything in here that says the ONLY answer that avoids sin is to align with Jesus and suffer well.

Certainly we should be ready to suffer well, but I don't think that is the only God honoring choice to make or that by choosing a path that avoids suffering that I have a sin to repent of.


Thoughts? 

[formflier]

So, I'm trying to put together some thoughts on how I approach scripture and apply that to being in a r/s with a pwBPD.

Today I was quite frustrated with the Biblical Counselor because he was calling on me to "repent" of my "sin" of not "aligning with the cornerstone" (I Peter 2:6) of Jesus and focusing on suffering well.  I did not repent and honestly didn't think I was doing anything wrong.

The basic question is what to do when my wife starts acting up.  I think there are other options than "suffering well"

Below are some of my thoughts.  Hoping some of you can help tweak them or if you see error in the way I am reading and applying scripture, please let me know.


Start of a proposed email.


I'm trying to understand better how it is that we can read the same wonderful scripture and come up with very different prescriptions for an issue in life that needs to be solved.

I have no interest in arguing or trying to box anyone into an extreme position.  My interest lies in trying to better understand when to apply different parts of the Bible.  Perhaps to make the question more accurate, in what order do I try to apply scripture.

No intent for this to be a comprehensive list but an example of how I approach scripture, specifically scripture regarding suffering in a relationship or when a wrong has been done against me.

My hope is that you can point out other ways for me to look at or approach this that I can prayerfully consider.


So, during prior conflict, I think we established today that I was not primarily focused on aligning with Jesus as a cornerstone.


Proverbs 4:23 says that Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.     I take this as something I'm supposed to be doing, vice just saying God has put me in a destructive circumstance, so I'll just suffer well.  If there is an option, such as walking away from a bad conversation, then I think that would qualify as "guarding my heart".   Because I know from experience, that the longer I am exposed to bad conversations, stuff will start to flow from my heart that is bad.   If bad stuff starts to come out of my heart, that is not the fault of the person next to me that is saying bad things... .NO... .it's my fault, I am responsible, because I did not guard my heart.

I would say this is another way of saying that I am responsible for having healthy boundaries around the type of conversations that I will or won't engage in.  If I only applied this standard to my wife, I would certainly say those are unhealthy boundaries.   But I set a standard of "guarding my heart" and hold myself and everyone else to that standard.

Now, if the situation plays out where there is no way out, then I absolutely agree that focusing on suffering well is appropriate.  Even Jesus checked to see if there was a way to let the cup pass as he declared his readiness to do the Father's will. (Mat 26:39)


Acts 22 Shows Paul's reaction to being mistreated.  I don't see where he focused on suffering well or aligning with Christ.  I see him calling out to those that are mistreating him for the law to be followed.  I see much the same when I am mistreated.  It's me calling out to follow the rules.  Especially the rules that we have agreed upon.

Romans 13 talks about submitting to authority and structures of government that God has set up or allowed to be set up.  I am in a disagreement with a government authority in (place where legal action is) and I'm submitting to and appealing to the rules that are in place to right what I consider to be an injustice there.  I think Acts 22 and Romans 13 could both apply.

Now, if I appealed and used the rules and it all goes against me, then absolutely I am called on to sufferer well, no argument at all.  It just seems to me there are better places to go in scripture first for many of the issues that I am trying to solve.


When Romans 12:18 talks about "as far as it is up to you", I get a picture of a Christian trying different things to live peaceably with their neighbors.  I get a picture of an idea that it may not be possible to live at peace with everyone.   Certainly follow on scripture makes it clear not to take revenge, but I don't get anything in here that says the ONLY answer that avoids sin is to align with Jesus and suffer well.

Certainly we should be ready to suffer well, but I don't think that is the only God honoring choice to make or that by choosing a path that avoids suffering that I have a sin to repent of.


Thoughts? 

[Turkish]

I'm not sure what I see as your sin is here vis-a-vis that chapter.  If you were the wife and she was the husband,  would he say the same thing?

[formflier]

I'm not sure what I see as your sin is here vis-a-vis that chapter.  If you were the wife and she was the husband,  would he say the same thing?

Right... .I don't see it either.  Especially since he is implying I was sinful by "failing" to apply a part of scripture, when I ws being intentional about applying another part of scripture.  

Full disclosure:  Could I have said at the time that I walked away from a bad conversation that I was applying Proverbs 4:23.  No... .I couldn't have quoted it at the time, but I have read it and I'm familiar with it enough to know that I am responsible to myself and God for making decisions about what I will and won't expose myself to.

The BC and I don't see to be communicating very well in session because when I ask questions I'm told that I'll have to wait until "I can clearly see scripture" (which I see as him saying agree with him) to get some of my questions answered.  When I asked if he was saying that the Biblical answer to an abusive conversation is to remain in the conversation and "suffer well", he declined to answer and said something about not going to be defending extreme views.

So, I asked lots of questions and got vague answers because I "don't see clearly"

Sigh... .frustrating.

FF

[Lifewriter16]

Hi FF. Not sure I've got a great deal to say, but this notion of 'aligning to the cornerstone' doesn't appear in Church of England doctrine and thus seems to be a cultural expression of Christian faith. Each church chooses which aspects of scripture to focus upon and which to ignore. Any church that claims to be 'bibical' is deluding itself because it is impossible to apply all scripture at the same time. It contains contradictions. It's all a matter of preference. What concerns me is where scripture becomes a form of religious abuse.

None of us 'see clearly' FF. Doesn't scripture say that we all 'see through a glass darkly'? That includes your BC who seems to be portraying himself/herself as seeing what you don't see. Are you sure that your biblical counsellor isn't on a power trip?

However, I'm wondering whether you should accept this with grace because you are expecting your wife to accept the scripture that puts you as the head of the family with grace. Perhaps this is a time for humility. If you want to benefit from using the scriptures for your purposes (to improve your relationship), perhaps you need to swallow your need to be right/go your own way to show your wife that you are willing to do for her what she is doing for you (to improve your relationship)? Basically both of you under the authority of your BC (whom you both accept to stand in as the representative of the cornerstone). Otherwise, perhaps this isn't the route for you both.

I hope you can accept this feedback as given in good faith.

Love Lifewriter

[Verbena]

FF, if your wife were physically abusing you--or cheating on you--it would be more clear cut Biblically where you stood.  Still, you're in an abusive relationship due to a mental illness that you didn't cause, you can't fix, and that your wife won't deal with on her own. 

To me, that is just the bottom line.  All the therapy and counseling in the world will not change that fact. 

[formflier]

I hope you can accept this feedback as given in good faith.

Yes... .please keep it coming. 

I am willing and able to love my wife when she has no interest in reconciling perceived sins (such as calling the other side in legal issue).  I've laid out my concerns to her lovingly.   She says there was no breech of trust, I dropped it.  It's up to the Holy Spirit now.  I didn't and wont' "withhold relationship" because I believe she has done wrong.

What I don't think I am willing to do, and what I'm looking for feedback on is this idea of suffering well and focusing on the cross while she is saying horrible things.

More later.

FF

[thisagain]

Jesus had boundaries... .no money lending in the temple, etc... .and enforced them in ways that we here would not approve of!

He seems to think that there is one Biblical truth, which he is more in touch with than you. (Rather than a collection of verses and stories that can be interpreted different ways, some are applicable to a situation and some are not, etc). Do you agree with him?

I'm not sure it's worth it to just go back and forth citing verses... .he's always going to be able to find verses that suggest that you're too prideful and should just suffer rather than try to change the situation. Like Lifewriter says, those verses are in the same book as the verses about wives submitting to husbands' authority. If you're going into this hoping the BC will tell wife that Jesus is on your side, so she has to accept that without questioning... .I'm not sure what you can do when BC says Jesus is on her side.

If the genders were reversed, I'm not sure female-FF would bat an eye at being told she just has to suffer and submit to biblical authority. It's a pretty common mindset among (abused) Christian wives.

[Lifewriter16]

Could you re-construe it as: stepping back, not taking it personally, detaching from her comments so they have no effect on you whilst you listen to her rants? Personally, I'm all for walking away from abuse but walking away from someone with abandonment issues is probably going to aggravate matters rather than make them better. That is the one big issue that I have with the teaching on this website. I can't figure it out. Is it a matter of defining where exactly the line is when too much has been said so she understands exactly why you are walking away?

No idea what will work for you. I walked out of my marriage because I no longer wanted to suffer a marriage that was cold and devoid of love (and had some violent elements thrown in). I chose to ignore the biblical teaching and take the repercussions. One day, I may be standing in front of God and I may just regret the decision I made - only God knows that. However, I chose to be true to myself. So, I'm no authority, I'm just chucking some ideas your way.

LW

[formflier]

I'm just chucking some ideas your way.

And I thank you for that... .keep chucking.  I have, over the past few months, moved the line so that I listen to more, especially if I think I am finding validation targets.  Such as last night, she came right out and said that she was scared.  No projection or any of that... .she said it and owned it.  I stayed with her, validated... .and the temp did come down.

But it was never outright abusive, her tone didn't get explosive.

I don't get enough airtime to talk about any of this in session, and any mention of "tactics" in session is said to be focusing on my wife's sin... when I should be focused on suffering well.

Hard to explain exactly, but I can tell when the "race is on" and blather is coming out of my wife's mouth, I shift my mindset to removing myself and I believe that she "burns out" quicker by doing that rather than letting her keep looking at the object of her rage, or see me and then believe that I am ignoring her.

So... .when the race is on... .validation attempts are over and I "protect my heart".

Lifewriter16... .I'm not arguing with you... .just showing my point of view or how I "interpret" the situation.  If you missed what you are after... .please come back to your point.

As others will readily attest... .I can sometimes... .lots of time... .be hard headed!   

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have seen the Bible used to justify pounding innocent and well-meaning believers.  Sadly.

I wonder what your own personal convictions say about your alignment to Christ.  There is a range of interpretations that you outline.  I wonder if there is an excessive effort on the counselor's part to apply one portion over another in an effort to get a result.

Have you spent time in personal communion and reflection?

Has God's Spirit touched you, so that you know what is right - for you?

Although a devout Christian, I have gone deeper into Buddhism thanks to the suffering I am in with my marriage.  I believe all truth is eternal, and leads from whence it came - God. 

In this life, suffering is necessary.  As is the eventual salvation and end of suffering.  You are given one life, what would God want you to be with it?

[Wrongturn1]

Looking at the Bible, I see three main types of suffering that Christians experience due to external causes that we are called to endure with grace and hope (so this is setting aside suffering as a consequence of our own sin, which is self-inflicted):  1) suffering that comes with living in a sinful and broken world, e.g., Genesis 3:17-19; 2) suffering due to difficult circumstances that God allows in our life to build our character and hope, e.g., Romans 5:3-5; and 3) suffering from persecution by an unbelieving world against Christians, e.g., 1 Peter 4:12-13.

1) Genesis 3:17-19 ESV

"And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.  By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust,    and to dust you shall return."

2) Romans 5:3-5 ESV

"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

3) 1 Peter 4:12-13 ESV

"Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed."

So off the top of my head, I do not see anyplace in scripture that compels us to accept abusive behavior, particularly from other Christians, particularly from a spouse.  I think the most applicable verse here is Proverbs 21:9:  "It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife."  This speaks to removing ourselves from abusive circumstances in the context of marriage.

So would scripture have us forgive our abusers?  Yes.  But does it compel us to continue to accept abuse?  No way.

[Lifewriter16]

I am a great believer in the idea that if God is speaking to us through someone, we recognise it the minute it's said... .so if it doesn't resonate, it's not 'of God'. So, if anything I say doesn't resonate, leave it and if anything your BC says doesn't resonate, leave that too. However, that's my brand of faith, listening to the inner voice rather than the voice of religious authority whether it's a book or it's a person interpreting the book.

However, you have always struck me as someone with a very definite outlook on life and I think your wife might struggle to be heard by you on occasion. You may be encountering a lot of frustration on her part muddled in with BPD tendencies. I don't deny for a minute that you need to be heard or that your wife's behaviour is inappropriate, even abusive at times. However, asking your wife to accept a subservient position in relation to you is pretty old testament and barely appropriate for the modern day. I'm surprised she even goes along with this. I wouldn't. To me, a marriage should be of equals and using the Bible to enforce a hierarchy is, I think, out of order. I'm really saying, that if you are imposing something undesireable on your wife, you should be willing to have something undesireable imposed on you, ie suffering. Otherwise, it's one rule for her and another for you. Either submit fully as you are asking her to do, or choose another way forward.

LW x

[Waddams]

Full disclosure - I'm a Christian.  I don't do a great job of it always, but I try. 

That being said, I absolutely hate the way some "Christians" portray what the bible says.  They just plain get it wrong.  In terms of marital counseling, I've seen over and over the counselor basically telling the abused spouse they have to "turn the other cheek" and tolerate the abuse.  It's just plain wrong and they way they use portions of the bible to justify it makes me mad.

I'll link an article that describes it better, but the Bible is clear - you not only don't have to tolerate abuse, you shouldn't.  If someone is sinning against you, you have a duty to protect yourself.  If you don't, you are enabling their sin to continue, and in a way, you are then participating in it and condoning it.  It's not right to retaliate, you simply follow the steps outlined to confront them alone, then with witnesses/close friends or family, then in front the Church body, then separate yourself from them if they won't stop. 

The link is here:  https://dannimoss.wordpress.com/articles/abuse-in-the-christian-home/does-god-want-me-to-stay-in-an-abusive-marriage/

Any person, counselor, preacher, or other that advocates having to stay and tolerate abuse and twisting scripture as justification to me is someone that is sinning against me and will be sent away from me post haste, and I recommend that stance to everyone I've ever spoken with about the subject.  One of the big criticisms I've heard from non-church people is their belief that the church advocates positions that lead to having to stay in abusive, controlling situations, and that's because of morons in the church that spout off twisted interpretations like this, and it also contributes to the perception that women are supposed to be subservient to men, which is also a position that is taught as biblical but I don't believe is correct.

Paul writes in Ephesians for wives to submit to husbands and husbands to love/serve their wives, as most translations present it.  If you go back to the original Greek, the words used for "submit" and "love/serve" are the same word, and in other contexts was used to denote a service similar to a soldier serving at the command of an officer.  I believe the original intent was both men and women should serve each other as equals in the relationship, in a manner that puts the other spouse's needs first.  Neither was intended to be subservient to the other.

The English language has something like 60,000 words.  Ancient Hebrew and Greek have far less.  To understand true intent of some aspects of the Bible, you really need to delve into the original languages, it's nuances, how the same words were used to denote different ideas in different contexts, etc.  It's not a direct word for word translation to English, and I do believe in the past that certain things were translated to justify certain cultural and/or social trends of our own societies instead of to convey the true meaning intended. 

[formflier]

 

To be clear... .I'm not asking her to submit.  The BC she has picked is telling her to.  She is agreeing.

And writing all kinds of weird emails asking if that means she has to have sex with a liar.  (check other thread)

He mentioned that for 1 minute and then focused on me for a long time because I wouldn't "repent" of using the wrong part of the Bible.

Note:  Another irksome thing is that one of his methodologies in session is to ask, FF do you see this in the scripture, then flip over and ask if I see something else, then saying "so God wants you to suffer well", and the quick answer is yes... .at that point if there is any pushback or questions by me he reminds me that I've already agreed to what I see in scripture and asks if I'm going back on what I said... .almost like breaking my word.  

So, I've been much more reluctant to agree with him, because the "mousetrap" falls shut later in session or a couple sessions later of "FF, you've already agreed to this so you can't go back... ."

The methodology seems more focused on agreement and compliance as opposed to having the person he is counseling actually understand what he is saying.

Sigh... .anyone tell I'm frustrated by this?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well said, Waddams.

FF, not only is this guy doctrinaire IMO, he comes across as mightily arrogant. Just what you need--a narcissistic BC!

[Waddams]

A bad counselor can do more damage than not seeing one.  This guy doesn't sound like he's doing anything other than setting up traps for you. 

I won't tell you what to do, but I will say if I were dealing with these issues with him, I'd simply find a new counselor.  This guy might be great for some couples, but in a situation involving a potential pwPD like your's, what he's doing is making it worse from the sounds of things.

[formflier]

Waddams,

Bit of history.  This is only one the wife will go see.  She does listen to him and some good has come from this.  We are at 15-16 weeks into weekly counseling.

But, somehow... in the last few sessions... he is pushing to drive down a road that I don't understand.

I have Psychologist visit today, hoping she can help guide a good response.

FF

[empath]

Today I was quite frustrated with the Biblical Counselor because he was calling on me to "repent" of my "sin" of not "aligning with the cornerstone" (I Peter 2:6) of Jesus and focusing on suffering well.  I did not repent and honestly didn't think I was doing anything wrong.

Honestly, this is a really poor application of that verse and a poor understanding of our call as believers. The context is suffering of Christians at the hands of unbelievers who sin because that is what they do. Jesus suffered because he was calling people to repentance and speaking the truth of who he was; he also chose when he would 'suffer' and ultimately give up his life to redeem us. He also chose to disengage sometimes; Mark 1:29-39 and there are other examples, like after the feeding of the 5000 when the people wanted to make him their king, he 'withdrew'.

Do you have the book, 'Boundaries' by Cloud and Townsend?

I see some red flags with the BC that are more clear as you describe what is happening.

[formflier]

Do you have the book, 'Boundaries' by Cloud and Townsend?

So, as he was poking at me to repent.  I said "So... the Christian authors Cloud and Townsend (I love their books by the way) and Dobson (focus on  the family guy) all use scripture and talk about respect and boundaries being the basis of a healthy and loving relationship.

He said... .and I assure you I am quoting "I don't care with Cloud, Townsend and Dobson say"  I care what the word of God says... "   End quote

Now... I will tell you that I attempted to keep poker face and  not engage on that point.  Once I saw haw far he was going with this, to dismiss other guys that use scripture to inform their writing and often quote scripture.

I just don't think that these guys are taking the word that far out of context.

Sigh... .

FF

[KateCat]

Do you have the book, 'Boundaries' by Cloud and Townsend?

As someone who is not a Christian but is yet a huge fan of this wonderful Christian team and this wonderful book, I keep thinking about this too when you describe your Biblical Counselor.

From what I recall of your story (quite a lot, I think), you really, really tried throughout your marriage to be utterly transparent to your wife. To be "one flesh." To share everything with her, including information others might keep private.

This (principled) lack of boundaries, in the past, might even be one of the things that led to the delicate legal matter you are currently facing.

It seems to me that this BC is asking you to go back to the ways that have proven harmful to the family. Townsend and Cloud propose a different path.

That said, I like the ideas that Grey Kitty and Flourdust are floating here. And am curious yet again to see if your personal psychologist thinks there is a way to manage the Biblical Counseling such that it does not cause harm.

ADDED: Cross-posted with formflier.

[empath]

He said... .and I assure you I am quoting "I don't care with Cloud, Townsend and Dobson say"  I care what the word of God says... "   End quote

Now... I will tell you that I attempted to keep poker face and  not engage on that point.  Once I saw haw far he was going with this, to dismiss other guys that use scripture to inform their writing and often quote scripture.

Good job at not engaging it... .  I thought that was probably the case; bc tends to discount anything psychological. In their books, they do quote scripture; I think that might be some resources for you as you look for scripture to describe your position. If he wants the word of God, use it to communicate what you are doing - speak his language.

[formflier]

 

Off to see P... .

Odd how excited I am to go to her sessions... .and... .not so much the BC.

Sigh.

FF

[KateCat]

That's 'cause she's a Godsend! 

[formflier]

That's 'cause she's a Godsend! 

Finally... .something we all agree on.!

[Waddams]

I used to enjoy seeing my therapist before he retired.  The guy was great.  These days, I don't see a therapist, life is rather good, and I'm doing well keeping it on track on my own.  Obi Wan has taught me well!

Hope your session goes well.  Good luck.

[SamwizeGamgee]

This reminds me of what I read a while back, something like: that should a BPD sufferer agree to submit to therapy or counseling, it can lead to the highly emotionally savvy BPD sufferer winning-over said counselor and using that to beat you over the head with.  I wonder if you're not going down that road right now. 

Aside: I'm partly looking forward to trying counseling with my wife - just to watch the story unfold. She is very emotionally charged and persuasive.  I bet I'll be to blame for everything in two visits.

[Fian]

"The BC and I don't see to be communicating very well in session because when I ask questions I'm told that I'll have to wait until "I can clearly see scripture" (which I see as him saying agree with him) to get some of my questions answered."

This does concern me as when one person sets them as an authority about God, and expects others to follow them because they "see further", then they are encouraging people to follow them instead of God.  To be honest, I think he probably only went there because he was losing the argument with you FF, and used this as a defense tactic.

One verse that helps your argument is John 2:24, which I see as Jesus having boundaries.  "But Jesus on His part, was not entrusting himself to them, for he knew all men."

Anyway, to go back to the suffering question, personally I think there is a difference between suffering to do what is right versus suffering because you are unwilling to step out of the fire.  For him to say you just suffer through your wife's tirades, he must first convince you that there is something worthwhile to be achieved through doing so.  Based on what you have said, it appears that the only result is negative:

• Nothing gets resolved when she dysregulates



• At best, you are only hurt, at worst you also get angry and worse things happen

I also find it strange that he wants you to suffer well, while she is in the room with you.  Isn't the better option for him to instruct her to stop her tantrums?

One final thought, I think men instinctively step away from situations when they are angry so that they can cool down.  When men lose control of their anger, really bad things can happen.  For the BC to suggest that you should stay in such a situation is really dangerous advice.

[formflier]

One final thought, I think men instinctively step away from situations when they are angry so that they can cool down.  When men lose control of their anger, really bad things can happen.  For the BC to suggest that you should stay in such a situation is really dangerous advice.

I have another post about the way forward after meeting with my P yesterday.  Basically, I need to push him to get specific and what his advice "looks like" vice letting him stay abstract.

To be clear he has never said exactly that I should stay, he hints at it, and when I try to pin him down, he evades.  Almost like he is saying if I really knew scripture and "aligned with the cornerstone" that the answer would be obvious to me.

P gave me coaching on how to not "pin him down" but to invite him to "teach me thy ways... ." 

And stay centered and humble and just say that I don't understand the abstract part, but I'm interested in what it looks like.  What is the behavior you want me to exhibit?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

What hold does this BC have on you?

From the sections I have read of your posts, I ask if you're getting anything good out of this at all?

I would have hit the bye-bye button by now.

[formflier]

What hold does this BC have on you?

From the sections I have read of your posts, I ask if you're getting anything good out of this at all?

I would have hit the bye-bye button by now.

This is only place my wife will go.  No other options.  So, I decided to give it a shot.

She sees him as an authority figure and she does what she is told.  I tend to not do that, especially when I'm being told to do it on blind faith.

Goods:  I sleep now.  For now, sleep deprivation is gone.  We have structured discussions, (meetings) each day to discuss what will happen the next day and plan things for future, grudingly she sees me as the final decision maker.

There have been lots of other, very useful things that have improved our relationship. 

With guidance of my P, nothing so far seems harmful to me or to my wife.  Frustrating... .yes. 

I have clear vision in my head that wife will not be fixed.  We may develop better relationship habits that improve our quality of life.


FF