Is she/Isn't she?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've been separated from my uBPDw now for 4+ months. I think one thing I'm struggling with at the moment is that she ticks off many many BPD traits, but there are also some which are not there. I know there's no one size fits all and no one here can diagnose anyone, but it's that lingering question in the back of my head, that desire to know if she is in fact BPD, or if she's just a very high conflict person who has some traits, but ultimately would not be diagnosed as mentally ill.

The ones I'm thinking of that I haven't seen really are self harm, threats of suicide, being physically abusive toward me, extreme rages (though she has had outbursts of anger, just not a super common thing) and extreme fear of abandonment. I think the last one is what's on my mind at the moment because I would think if she was BPD, the fact that I left her to be separated would have provoked a panic on her part as a result of feeling abandoned. We didn't speak for several days after I left. There were no text bombs or tons of desperate voicemails. When we did have contact, I explained that I ultimately hoped we would reconcile but that we both needed to do a lot of work on ourselves, and the relationship for it to continue. Since then there have been no efforts on her part to do any work, though I have done some counseling and other work on my own. Perhaps my assertion that I hoped to reconcile prevented the abandonment fears to kick in fully? We've almost been no contact two weeks now - the longest period of no contact since I met her a few years ago. I do recall a couple of instances where she seemed panicked over perceived abandonment or my disengaging.

One instance was right before we became engaged, she was texting me and I had fallen asleep early that night as a result of being tired. Probably was like 10pm and we were texting back and fort. I woke up at like 4am and saw a barrage of texts from her. She had made some comment and when I didn't respond, perceived it as I was upset with her. She sent many texts making assumptions about my feelings and apologizing; never once considering maybe I just fell asleep. Anyway, the other instance was she kicked me out after several months being married. I came home from work to find my bags packed out of nowhere, and her sitting nicely dressed with a prepared letter. I now believe it was a bluff to get me to say, "This is all my fault, I'll do whatever to make this marriage better and make you happy". However, I took my stuff and left to go stay with my parents. I ignored her texts and she went into a full on panic; saying she just wanted to know if I was okay and she didn't really think I was going to leave, etc. Those are the two that stick out in my mind. But like I said, I feel surprised that she does not seem to feel panicked over me leaving and us potentially heading for divorce.

Any insights or comments would be most appreciated. Thanks.

[Mr Orange]

I've been separated from my uBPDw now for 4+ months. I think one thing I'm struggling with at the moment is that she ticks off many many BPD traits, but there are also some which are not there. I know there's no one size fits all and no one here can diagnose anyone, but it's that lingering question in the back of my head, that desire to know if she is in fact BPD, or if she's just a very high conflict person who has some traits, but ultimately would not be diagnosed as mentally ill.

The ones I'm thinking of that I haven't seen really are self harm, threats of suicide, being physically abusive toward me, extreme rages (though she has had outbursts of anger, just not a super common thing) and extreme fear of abandonment. I think the last one is what's on my mind at the moment because I would think if she was BPD, the fact that I left her to be separated would have provoked a panic on her part as a result of feeling abandoned. We didn't speak for several days after I left. There were no text bombs or tons of desperate voicemails. When we did have contact, I explained that I ultimately hoped we would reconcile but that we both needed to do a lot of work on ourselves, and the relationship for it to continue. Since then there have been no efforts on her part to do any work, though I have done some counseling and other work on my own. Perhaps my assertion that I hoped to reconcile prevented the abandonment fears to kick in fully? We've almost been no contact two weeks now - the longest period of no contact since I met her a few years ago. I do recall a couple of instances where she seemed panicked over perceived abandonment or my disengaging.

One instance was right before we became engaged, she was texting me and I had fallen asleep early that night as a result of being tired. Probably was like 10pm and we were texting back and fort. I woke up at like 4am and saw a barrage of texts from her. She had made some comment and when I didn't respond, perceived it as I was upset with her. She sent many texts making assumptions about my feelings and apologizing; never once considering maybe I just fell asleep. Anyway, the other instance was she kicked me out after several months being married. I came home from work to find my bags packed out of nowhere, and her sitting nicely dressed with a prepared letter. I now believe it was a bluff to get me to say, "This is all my fault, I'll do whatever to make this marriage better and make you happy". However, I took my stuff and left to go stay with my parents. I ignored her texts and she went into a full on panic; saying she just wanted to know if I was okay and she didn't really think I was going to leave, etc. Those are the two that stick out in my mind. But like I said, I feel surprised that she does not seem to feel panicked over me leaving and us potentially heading for divorce.

Any insights or comments would be most appreciated. Thanks.

[rfriesen]

Hi Orange,

I want to qualify everything I say by noting that I've only been reading up on BPD for four months and am no mental health professional! That said, I think it may be misleading to ask whether a person "is in fact BPD". A professional diagnosis of BPD is made on the basis of a person exhibiting a certain set of behavioural patterns. You can read some of the details here, for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder#Diagnosis

To say that someone "in fact" has BPD is just to say they exhibit a certain number of the relevant behavioural patterns. Contrast this with saying someone "in fact" has avian flu. That person might have a fever and other symptoms, but to say they have avian flu means more than just that they have the symptoms -- it means they're infected with an underlying virus causing the symptoms. In the case of BPD there is no currently accepted underlying condition (e.g. genetic or neurological condition) -- so saying someone "has" BPD doesn't tell us anything more than that they tend to exhibit certain behaviours.

So, that said, what do you feel it would do for you to decide one way or another whether your uBPDw "has" BPD? You mention your desire to know if she is in fact BPD and mentally ill? What do you hope this knowledge would bring you? Are you hoping to know better how to handle conflict with her? Does it influence how you'll move on? Or?

Believe me, I more than understand the desire to know just what on earth is going on! I would love to have some insight into what makes my ex tick, just what underlies all the hurt and anger and jealousy (and love and passion!) she unleashed on me. I'm only asking whether deciding "BPD or not" will truly give you any such insight.

[Meili]

I struggled with the same question. To me, whether she is or is not, she exhibits enough of the traits to cause concern. But, more importantly, she was abusive to me either way. So, I will join in asking what difference does it make in your mind? Would the abuse that you experienced be any less real? Would it be excusable somehow?

[Mr Orange]

Believe me, I more than understand the desire to know just what on earth is going on! I would love to have some insight into what makes my ex tick, just what underlies all the hurt and anger and jealousy (and love and passion!) she unleashed on me. I'm only asking whether deciding "BPD or not" will truly give you any such insight.

^Pretty much this.

I understand what you're saying in regards to ultimately what would a BPD diagnosis do for me. I guess it's that desire for some sort of insight as to what is driving her bizarre behavior and the turmoil of this relationship. But I agree that ultimately, BPD or not, the relationship is unhealthy and I cannot continue on without some drastic changes happening. So as to how it affects my decision going forward, I don't think a BPD diagnosis makes much of a difference. Maybe being engulfed in this madness for the past two years has resulted in me questioning my own perception, and a diagnosis on some level would reinforce confidence in my instincts and perception as to what is really going on.

[schwing]

The ones I'm thinking of that I haven't seen really are self harm, threats of suicide, being physically abusive toward me, extreme rages (though she has had outbursts of anger, just not a super common thing) and extreme fear of abandonment.

I think you're referring to the DSM IV criteria for a BPD diagnosis which only requires five or more of the qualities.  So you don't need to express all the criteria for a BPD diagnosis.

I think the last one is what's on my mind at the moment because I would think if she was BPD, the fact that I left her to be separated would have provoked a panic on her part as a result of feeling abandoned.

In the DSM V (current DSM) description there needs to be impairment in interpersonal function in either (a) Empathy or (b) Intimacy.  Under "intimacy" there can be "anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment... " but under "empathy":

Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities.

Those are two very different interpersonal function impairments, but I think it suggests that BPD can be diagnosed without the fear of real/imagined abandonment.

That said, I think it is very possible for someone with BPD to attached to someone else before they are "abandoned."  That is, they can be so sensitive to the possibility that someone will leave them that they leave first by attaching to someone else and thus avoid the "abandonment."

Perhaps my assertion that I hoped to reconcile prevented the abandonment fears to kick in fully? We've almost been no contact two weeks now - the longest period of no contact since I met her a few years ago. I do recall a couple of instances where she seemed panicked over perceived abandonment or my disengaging.

If she has expressed fear of abandonment before, I think she has just attached herself to someone else now.

In any case, I don't think your decision to leave her should hinge upon whether or not you get a BPD diagnosis.  You decision should be based on whether or not you are hopeful that the dynamic you have together can ever be healthy for the both of you.  You have expressed a willingness to reconcile.  What has she expressed?  Nothing?  What does that tell you?

[Mr Orange]

Schwing,

She has expressed a desire to reconcile as well. The problem is, she has refused my bottom line of her getting into individual therapy, as I have, before I would consider us trying couples therapy again, which was useless the last time we tried. I need to see effort to change on her part, and that's just step 1 on the road to us potentially living together again. I basically put that out there as an ultimatum, so we've been at an impasse for the past few weeks. I'm not budging on this, so it may be that the writing is on the wall regarding an inevitable divorce.

Still, even though it's been a really tumultuous couple of years, it doesn't make it any easier to deal with the probable outcome of divorce because I still love this woman. Knowing about the trauma she's experienced, of course I feel for her deeply and I know she really just needs help. But I feel like staying with her without her and I both getting counseling to address all of the unhealthy issues within our relationship, I'll just end up as collateral damage; another wrecked soul left in the wake of her (likely, IMO) BPD madness. No thanks.

[Leonis]

Still, even though it's been a really tumultuous couple of years, it doesn't make it any easier to deal with the probable outcome of divorce because I still love this woman. Knowing about the trauma she's experienced, of course I feel for her deeply and I know she really just needs help. But I feel like staying with her without her and I both getting counseling to address all of the unhealthy issues within our relationship, I'll just end up as collateral damage; another wrecked soul left in the wake of her (likely, IMO) BPD madness. No thanks.

As long as she has the desires to reconcile, you should stand your ground on what needs to happen. You are correct when you said that it'd only fall apart later down the road if you took her back no questions asked.

My ex had trauma issues from childhood too, but she refuses to believe they cause issues in her relationships. She's convinced herself that she's much happier as a spinster because she can't trust significant others, but still longs for that affection and love. She also believes that they help her identify "bad" relationships and get her out.

The funny part is, when she starts to list the reasons why we weren't good together, you'll feel like you are reading some middle school girl's obscure check list of little insignificant things of what she wants (or don't want) in a boy.

[Mr Orange]

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Leonis.

The bit about "reading from a middle school girl's checklist" rings especially true. I always felt mine was stuck in 7th grade in regards to her attitudes and expectations toward romantic relationships. On her worst days, she had the emotional maturity of a 7 year old. I suspect that's why she gets along so well with my nieces. They're at a similar stage in the emotional development process. Except that won't be for long because my eldest niece is about to turn 8.

[seenr]

Interesting discussion.

I have written how in our house my ex was particularly tough on her daughter. When her daughter's friends used to call or stay for sleepovers, I noticed my ex joining in their conversation as though she was also 16. The girls would have food treats, I might have a glass of wine as did my ex but she would 'leave' the adult conversation and join in with the youngsters.

In many ways I think she was jealous of her daughter. She would regularly 'bring her down' when the daughter came in happy from a meeting with friends. She had her daughter at a young age and I think blames the girl for taking away her youth. I have often heard them row where the daughter has asked her mother 'why didn't you abort me so?'.

I don't think an emotionally mature adult should be engaging in conversation with children like that.

I always felt mine was stuck in 7th grade in regards to her attitudes and expectations toward romantic relationships. On her worst days, she had the emotional maturity of a 7 year old. I suspect that's why she gets along so well with my nieces. They're at a similar stage in the emotional development process. Except that won't be for long because my eldest niece is about to turn 8.

[rfriesen]

Orange,

I really feel for you. I was in the same basic standoff with my ex -- except that we weren't married and the relationship was only about a year and a half from start to finish, so it's not quite the same scale as you, I recognise.

After a tumultuous several months with my ex -- break-ups, professions of undying love, her rifling through a bunch of possible replacements, etc -- we reached a point where we both acknowledged we had incredibly intense feelings, but that we were a dysfunctional mess. She said, "Can't you see I would drop anyone in a second to be back with you? I would do anything to be with you." Sure sounded heartfelt when she would always tell me that she would do "anything". And yet anytime I asked whether there was anything she would have done differently in our relationship, anyway she felt she had contributed to the mess, she would give me some version of, "You know, I haven't done that much introspection. It just hurts too much" or "Can I have some time to think about it? I don't want to give you some half-assed answer" (and of course she never got back to me) or "I think we're just at different stages in life - I'm not where you are, ready to think deeply about my emotional issues".

So she was willing to do anything ... .so long as it didn't involve a basic minimum of self-reflection and possible change. It's so heartbreaking and infuriating. She's so incredibly unhappy inside, which she often enough shows in rage and tears, and sometimes even acknowledges openly. But if pushed to make any changes, she reverts to "You know, I'm really happy with my life now. Playing hard, working hard. I don't have time to delve into personal issues."

It kills me, because it seems like it really is just too hard for her to face her issues now, and I think she's headed for more and more heartache. But what more can I do? Like you, I think I would just end up collateral damage. When she has to deal with conflicting emotions, she can turn so callous and cruel and treats everyone as disposable. I reached a point where I decided I have my own life to live and won't sacrifice myself to no end. Somehow, though, I still find myself obsessing over the fact that she'll turn the page on us believing that I abandoned her. For me, that's what lack of closure means. She'll never recognise just how much I gave her and how hard it was for me to deal with conflicting emotions too -- I sometimes think she feels she's the only one who has to struggle with them! Well, yes I can be angry and hurt too (especially when faced with her insults, lying, hunting for replacements, guilt-tripping, etc), but I always held on to the fact that deep down I love her and care for her and wouldn't just erupt and discard her the way she would me.

Bah, still hurts! Good luck to you. Like I said, I really feel your pain.

[seenr]

I really enjoyed this post.

I think this post sums up what it is like loving someone who is very damaged. I know that the first time I realised something with my ex didn't add up was about 18 months in. I had suspicions up to that point but ignored them when things improved.

Another 6.5 years down the road and nothing has changed. She did go to counselling and improved in some areas but just doesn't seem to have any empathy, cannot feel anyone else's pain and even as late as last night was blaming me for her actions.

Loving this person has been the most difficult experience of my life. Orange, you might be finding the same thing now.

So she was willing to do anything ... .so long as it didn't involve a basic minimum of self-reflection and possible change. It's so heartbreaking and infuriating. She's so incredibly unhappy inside, which she often enough shows in rage and tears, and sometimes even acknowledges openly. But if pushed to make any changes, she reverts to "You know, I'm really happy with my life now. Playing hard, working hard. I don't have time to delve into personal issues."

[rfriesen]

She did go to counselling and improved in some areas but just doesn't seem to have any empathy, cannot feel anyone else's pain and even as late as last night was blaming me for her actions.

Somehow or other, they need to summon up the genuine will to make a change. In hindsight, I don't think my ex ever came close. She did go to counselling too, but gave up after two appointments, saying, "I didn't really like the lady." And that was that.

[Meili]

Can't that be said about anyone though? Doesn't anyone who wants to make a change in their life need to summon the courage to do so?

[seenr]

100% yes.

But aren't many of us on this board simply because we want to change? I want to change. Even if my ex & I re-United, I don't want to be the man who battled against her. I don't want to battle anyone. I just want to get back to enjoying life. It feels like the last time I did was 2007.

Can't that be said about anyone though? Doesn't anyone who wants to make a change in their life need to summon the courage to do so?

[Mr Orange]

So she was willing to do anything ... .so long as it didn't involve a basic minimum of self-reflection and possible change. It's so heartbreaking and infuriating. She's so incredibly unhappy inside, which she often enough shows in rage and tears, and sometimes even acknowledges openly.

It kills me, because it seems like it really is just too hard for her to face her issues now, and I think she's headed for more and more heartache. But what more can I do? Like you, I think I would just end up collateral damage. When she has to deal with conflicting emotions, she can turn so callous and cruel and treats everyone as disposable.

rfriesen,

Thanks very much for your post. You hit it so perfectly, especially the bits I quoted above. Our only face to face meeting during the now 4 month separation was about a month ago. I really felt hopeful about her realizing and agreeing to do her part, which would be doing therapy as I have been. However, that meeting was a real eye opener. We spent a good 3 hours talking about things. I went on for much of the time about the areas I needed to work on, where I had failed, how I had hurt her, and how I was addressing my issues. She told me it meant a lot that I acknowledged all the pain I had caused her and that it would take a while to earn her trust back, but that she was more hopeful.

Then it was time for me to say, well do you see how you have hurt me and contributed to this messed up relationship, the way I just outlined how I have? She claimed to not understand what I was asking, and changed the subject to "if I want certain aspects of her to change, aspects of her that are who she is at her core, then it's not going to work, blah blah". I said, no you're changing the subject. We can talk about those things but first I'm simply asking do you acknowledge that you've caused me a significant amount of pain they way you see that I have caused you pain (which I openly acknowledge)? It's like she realized she was caught in a bind. She has never been able to accept fault or responsibility, but I think even she realized to claim that she had not hurt me or been part of the problem would be ridiculous. And that is what I've found over and over again happens with BPD which is one of the most frustrating and agonizing aspects of the condition. That you can catch them with their hand slammed shut in the cookie jar, have photographic evidence, clear cut indisputable proof of them being in the wrong, yet they still will not accept their fault. Change the subject, deflect the comment, just up and leave. Whatever it takes. And so perhaps this realization that they will never see their flaws or take responsibility for their side of things that confirms no harmony can be reached, unless they have some miracle moment where they realize they have problems and need help. Otherwise, you have to be able to accept this absurdity and be okay living with the situation as is, or accept the reality and if you can't be okay with it, move on.

It sucks, and it's been miserable, but I think I've finally realized that if she cannot see her side of it and accept that she needs to change too, as hard as it is, I must ultimately move on with my life without her.

Orange.

[rfriesen]

Orange,

yes, I can picture the scene you describe so clearly. My ex was the exact same way. The furthest I ever got was her acknowledging in a general sense that, "no doubt I've done things that have been hurtful and that I would do differently if I could go back" ... .it was just always followed by "but I just think there's no point in rehashing it all now". Again, she can say these things while in the previous or next breath saying she would do anything to make it work. Agonizing is the right word for the feeling I would get trying to deal with it all.

You know, I realize I should be grateful that she could go as far as she did. It seems many posters here have dealt with much worse. It just remains incredibly frustrating to have someone seem so genuinely desperate to make it work, yet unable to make even the slightest meaningful effort in that direction.

And, Meili, yes I agree completely that it can be said of everyone that they need to summon the courage to change. As seenr says, that seems to be what has led many of us here. Walking away from the relationship with my ex has been the most challenging thing I've ever done - certainly on a personal, emotional, gut-wrenching level. And I really do hope to come out changed for the better. Time will tell, I suppose!

[asphyx]

I'm not sure, but she might have Histrionic Personality Disorder ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder ). It's similar to BPD but a bit less extreme.

HPDs are solely focused on garnering attention, are more seductive/flirtatious, and are far less prone to raging or self-harm. BPDs are more manipulative, and are unable to regulate their moods and emotions.

[Leonis]

I'm not sure, but she might have Histrionic Personality Disorder ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder ). It's similar to BPD but a bit less extreme.

HPDs are solely focused on garnering attention, are more seductive/flirtatious, and are far less prone to raging or self-harm. BPDs are more manipulative, and are unable to regulate their moods and emotions.

Funny that you mention that. I find my ex a bit more HPD now that I have read through the entry.

[rfriesen]

I don't care too much for the diagnosis as such, especially since it's a diagnosis made solely on the basis of exhibited behavioural tendencies. So it doesn't add any deep understanding, in my opinion. Though it's certainly a relief to know other people have faced the same relationship dynamics, and that I'm not *simply* losing my mind ... .

That said, my ex was prone to extreme rage. Not physical violence, but extreme expressions of hatred and desire to see me suffer and to inflict as much anger and hurt on me as possible. I had never dealt with anything like it before. She never exactly apologised for it (since she always said it was warranted by something or other I did), but she did acknowledge she loses control and sometimes wishes she could control her explosions. She also did acknowledge that she's extremely manipulative. As I've said in other posts, my ex could actually be very insightful about her behaviour. Which made it all the more frustrating that she had no inclination to try changing ... .

[Meili]

RF is right, the diagnosis really isn't important, and all that we can do is try to apply a label based on external observations. None of us is qualified to make such a determination anyway. I think that most of us are happy to to apply the label so that we can make some sense, have some understanding, and feel some reminder that we aren't crazy. We do it to comfort ourselves. That being said, keep in mind that Cluster B disorders are a spectrum and not everyone ticks every box on that spectrum.

Ultimately, the is she/isn't she should only be important at the beginning of detaching. We can use it to center and ground ourselves. We should not use it as a crutch so as to place all the blame our the other person.

Orange, I can truly relate to owning your responsibility in the r/s and not have the other person accept responsibility or even acknowledge their part. It does suck and is miserable. What I have found was that accepting that pwBPD, or any Cluster B disorder for that matter, cannot, because of the shame, fear, and pain, accept accountability for their actions has made it all a bit easier. It took the sting away.

I was then able to take the anger away from her deflection. Like you, when I finally spoke up about things, my ex didn't want to look at or address them. They were things that she always wanted to deal with later. Sadly, it wasn't util "later" that I realized she it was so difficult for her to deal with the things that I saw problems with.

So, keep your head up and know that you're not the only one who has experienced this. It probably isn't a lot of comfort, but it might be some.

[Mr Orange]

That's interesting about the HPD. I can certainly see some of those traits in her. I can also see a couple NPD, in addition to the clear BPD, which seems most prevalent. I sort of feel like you could take all the symptoms of the various cluster B disorders, put them in a hat, draw out 8-10 and you would have my wife. Makes me wonder what purpose these sub labels (HPD, NPD, BPD, etc) within cluster B have in regards to diagnosis/treatment? Maybe I'm wrong, but the most prevalent and damaging aspects, 1) being incapable of having healthy interpersonal relationships and 2) being unable or unwilling to admit fault or take responsibility for personal flaws, are pretty much across the board with cluster B. Anyway, as others have mentioned, the diagnosis is not the real issue. It's clear to me that she has some combination of these symptoms, and those symptoms have wreaked havoc on me and destroyed our relationship. Putting a clinical label on it doesn't change any of that one way or the other.

Truthfully, I believe I've accepted the reality of the situation. I'm mainly here seeking comfort, empathy, and validation from others who have been through similar experiences. A lot of days you don't really need advice per se, more like you need someone to say, "Yeah, I've been through this with someone too. It's f*cked up and it sucks". So thanks for the replies everyone. It helps me to keep putting one foot in front of the other on the path toward better days.