I think I've realized it's basically over, no hope for reconciliation

[Mr Orange]

Quickly, for those of you who are unfamiliar with my situation. I separated from my uBPDw of about 2 years back in late February of 2016 (so getting close to 5 months). I could not handle the chaos anymore and felt like my own mental well being was close to a breaking point. I told her I couldn't do this anymore, and left to go stay with my parents. Things were never good since day 1 after we got married. It was like a light switch, and all of those little red flags became blaring undeniable signs of disaster. I told her a few days after our separation that I wanted things to ultimately work out, but couples counseling had failed and there had been no improvements despite hours of talking through things, and I felt like a drastic change needed to take place. She was very very angry, and maintained throughout this whole separation period the point of view that I was the horrible one who abandoned her and it was I who would need to earn her trust back and then maybe she'd consider taking me back. Not once has she given any indication that she realizes her destructive ways may have been what drove me away. No remorse, no responsibility, just all about her pain and suffering at my hands.

I started individual counseling with the mindset that I can only take care of myself, I can't force her to change. I naively hoped that during the time apart she might have a moment or two of introspection, and that me being very candid and honest about the ways I felt I had contributed to our relationship failing might open the door for her to have a lightbulb moment. Needless to say, that never happened. Suggesting she try individual counseling to demonstrate a desire on her part to work on our marriage was deflected as "just another thing I don't like about who she is as a person". She has never during this time once shown any concern over how I've been hurt, or at least a desire to understand my feelings. It's been all about her her her.

Last I spoke to her in mid June I told her that if she doesn't think she is at all part of the problem in our marriage falling apart and does not feel she has her own issues that need to be addressed, then there really is nothing to say at this point. We've now been 24 days without any communication. I deactivated my FB account, but my brother said recently he noticed she changed her last name back to her maiden name. It really sucks, but I feel that the writing is on the wall. I cannot see anything changing, and therefore I only see divorce court looming in approximately 6 months.

She has a few items of mine that belonged to me before I even met her at her apartment now. I was nice to let her keep my TV, but given that I'm going to be looking into moving into my own place soon I want to get those things back. I'm asking for advice as to how to go about this. Should I text her and say that I think we should get together because we need to start discussing where things are headed from here with our marriage. Maybe that would be an appropriate time to bring up getting my stuff back? Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Orange

[rfriesen]

I'm not sure I'm in any position to offer advice, but I did want to write because the way you describe your situation has so many parallels to mine. Except I didn't get married, so I really feel for you there. But I was with my ex for a year and a half. When her anger and jealousy and controlling nature started to show itself, I worked really hard to understand and do my part to fix things. In hindsight, this was a mistake, because she used my attempts as a kind of admission that it was all on me. I mean, she did it so skillfully and thoroughly that I didn't really get it until we were locked in this dynamic where I had to earn her trust back, I had to fix myself for her to accept me - when really, I think her rage and yelling and insults and jealousy were the real issue. But she could never take the least responsibility for her own actions, or make the slightest effort to change.

I've read some of your other posts and, man, I relate to what you're going through. How can someone swear up and down that they love you more than anything, would do anything for you, etc etc ... .but when you put your foot down and ask for just the slightest sign of real effort to change, they completely bail? It's so frustrating and painful.

My advice would be to really know your own heart and mind at this point and if you're convinced it's over, be ready to speak to her from that place of mind. I know my ex could sense the slightest bit of uncertainty or confusion in me and drag me right back into a whirl of emotions and chaos. If you've accepted that it's over and you want your stuff back, then speak to her with that single goal in mind. I don't think that means you have to be cold or callous with her, but just that you have to be firm with her and yourself as to what you want out of contacting her. You don't want to get sucked back into an argument or back-and-forth over the relationship and all the blame and guilt, etc.

So, again, who am I to give advice here? But if I'm going to give it anyway, I would tell you that first and foremost be clear on what you're hoping for in reaching out to her. My experience is that nothing could be worse than thinking, "well, I'll reach out to ask about getting my things back, and just see how she reacts, just see where her mind is at in terms of our relationship." I feel that as soon as you're in the world of ulterior motives and "just seeing what happens" you're back in the world of murkiness and mind games that our exes all seem to thrive in.

Just my two cents. Good luck whatever you do!

[Mr Orange]

Thanks for your input and words of advice, friesen. I really feel for you as well. This stuff can really wreak havoc on your emotions.

I think I can finally say I'm ready to sit down face to face with her and, without being callous, just calmly and confidently state that it appears we are at an impasse and since neither of us are able to understand the other's perspective enough for there to be a way forward, I think it is time to start discussing a plan for how to work out the next 6 months as amicably as possible. She would be free to respond at that point, but I think anything less than showing a genuine desire to accept her side of things, it would just be me letting her talk, acknowledging her feelings, and then letting her know I need to make arrangements to get my stuff back. Basically just establishing that divorce is now the only end I see, and it's time for us to face that and start preparing for that process. I have no desire to "bluff" or scare her into feigning change for fear of the relationship ending. I just think it is what it is. I hate it, it hurts, but there just seems to be no way forward. I can't go on living with her the way things had been. If she doesn't even care to want to know how I've been hurt, and what she's done to me that has damaged me so badly, then I can be at peace knowing she will never love me enough for my needs to have a chance in hell of being met. I think it will need to be a face to face meeting on neutral ground, so I just have to muster the strength to text her and set it up.

[rfriesen]

Sounds like you're as prepared as can possibly be expected. I'm about four months out from the final break-up with my ex, so almost as long as you. It hurts for sure, but every day I seem to see things a little more clearly, and in particular just how little genuine effort my ex was willing to put in. I mean, she put tremendous effort into trying to hold onto me through guilt, shame, desperate expressions of love, hysterical fear of abandonment ("promise me that leaving is never an option, promise me", etc. If she would have put just a fraction of that effort into taking an honest look at her own behaviour and having an open conversation with me ... .could have made all the difference.

How is it possible that she could seem to hurt so much at the thought of us breaking up, that she could seem to want me so bad, that she could pour endless amounts of energy to holding on in destructive ways ... .but can't take a single positive step towards examining and changing her own hurtful patterns of behaviour? It makes no sense, and I think that's part of what makes it all so hard to accept. What a waste of a loving relationship, and an intense emotional connection.

[seenr]

I see so many parallels with both of you in my own story. I was with her longer and have a child with her, but I felt 9-12 months in exactly as you both describe. The extra time I was with her just added to the heartache.

I don’t talk to her at all any more as there is no point. I’m not on social media so can’t see her and I don’t go out where she does. All in all, apart from meeting when handing over our son, there is no contact. If I had to sit down face to face with her I’d be scared s***less as she does make me afraid.

But all three of us are saying the same thing – we have been hurt, we would like to see change, we are not going to get it. I know I was prepared to examine every single thing about me in an effort to keep her and as I fixed each one, another cropped up.

I think your face to face plan to talk is good, but could evoke powerful emotions. I know if I met my ex I’d be thinking ‘reconcile’ all the way. Hence I avoid this like the plague.

[StayStrongNow]

Seenr, I too try to keep as much NC as possible when dropping off and picking up my children daily. (I have full custody so I have them always except when I work.)

It's been articulated well all over this board, we wish it wasn't so, wish this was just all a bad dream but like so many NONs here that seem to be struggling to start, starting or have already realize the r/s will never be the same as it was once in those first phases.

Sometimes I just want to tell her as I see it all so she knows where I am at but then reality strikes in and I realize it's futile.

"The Borderline doesn't accept responsibility, responds with anger to criticism, and is prone to panic detachment reactions... ."

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a110.htm

[ICantFixHer]

Hi Mr. Orange,

I feel for you. Last week I, too, realized the utter futility of continuing contact with my ex BPD girlfriend. It took me almost a year of living apart from her to realize the magnitude of what she'd orchestrated, how absolutely thoroughly and completely she played me, manipulated me, and used me.

These people are fluid; one day she may seem to understand you, the next she's back in her own fantasy. Every day, every moment, they can come from a different perspective in a flash.

For example, Friday night my ex admitted she cheated on me; Saturday morning she'd sent emails retracting her confession.

When I asked her to move in with me 10 years ago we both agreed physical and cyber sexual contact with others was off limits. Two months after she moved in, I found her engaging in cyber sex. She turned it into a huge fight about ME being insecure and unable to trust her. I asked her if it was OK if I participated in cyber sex and she said she didn't want that. Huh? I should have thrown the lying skunk out of my house that day but my soft heart and trusting nature led me to allow her to stay. The following 10 years have been more of the same.

The day after confessing she'd violated my trust, she comes back with "it was just an email, I didn't DO anything, it meant nothing and it's not cheating."

It's this particular BPD attribute that really turns me off, the back and forth with reality. It took me 10 years to figure it out but I've graduated. With honor.

I think it is time to start discussing a plan for how to work out the next 6 months as amicably as possible.

This will never happen, Mr. Orange. "Amicable" isn't a concept a BPD can understand for more than a few moments at a time. I'll bet you $5 right now your ex is going to make the process of you retrieving your property a very painful one. Please have a neutral party present when you go get your things so there is a witness in case she explodes on you.

Wishing all of us NONs the best. We didn't deserve this.

[Mr Orange]

This conversation is basically just to let her know that things are over, so she knows to expect divorce filings come Feb. I'm just not the type to have that conversation over a text of phone call, whether a person has BPD or not. As far as getting my property back, she may give me a whole bunch of attitude but she was the one who had me come get 98% of my stuff a week after I separated from her, and when I arrived it was all neatly packed for me by her, which I wasn't really expecting. There was no drama or fighting, just a quick grab everything and hit the road. I guess it is possible she may be angry about me wanting my TV back, but I could've taken that back months ago. I was being nice letting her keep it. And I'm going to give her 3 weeks so she can make plans to replace it or whatever. If she wants to make a huge issue out of it, I have no problem having an officer escort me over to claim my property back.

[rfriesen]

Two months after she moved in, I found her engaging in cyber sex. She turned it into a huge fight about ME being insecure and unable to trust her. I asked her if it was OK if I participated in cyber sex and she said she didn't want that. Huh?

This - it's the rank hypocrisy of my ex's attitude that made the futility of it all really sink in. At the beginning of our relationship, I was ready for it to be just a fling, just a casual relationship. My ex was engaged at the time (yes, I realise now that was stupid of me) and I thought, well I don't have any claims on her. I had no jealousy or sense of possession AT ALL in the beginning of the relationship, and no expectations or hopes of it progressing beyond that stage. And then she left her fiancé and slowly became more and more possessive of me - slowly, but very surely, until she started exploding in paranoid jealousies, going through my pockets, bags, drawers, etc., building absurd allegations out of anything she could find. And, of course, in the meantime I had fallen desperately in love with the intense connection we had.

It's pure madness looking back on it, but I kept trying to work through it all with her, being understanding of her insecurities and loving her through it all. It genuinely tore me apart to see her hurting like that. THEN her own behaviour with other men became more and more flagrant and eventually it came out she had been lining up replacements and was completely incapable (or unwilling) of not responding to sexual attention from other men. When confronted with any of her many hypocritical actions, she mostly would rage and attack me, or occasionally collapse in hysterical sobs of "regret" and sadness ... .basically anything to avoid actually processing her hypocrisy. But whether rage or tears, as soon as the moment had passed, she had found a way of justifying her behaviour and went right back to making me the bad guy. And I think she believed it herself, or at least found a way of blocking out in her own mind just how hypocritical she could be. It's as though her mind found it impossible that she could both love me so much and treat me so badly without justification ... .so she must have had a justification.

That's what made it impossible to get through to her. If she had just seemed like a flat-out liar who played me, well at least I would have understood the situation. I would have left her instantly, with far less fall-out and emotional pain for me, and probably for her too. But I had never been confronted with someone like my ex -- who I think genuinely cared in moments, those insanely intense and passionate moments where her love and devotion and hope were real, or as real as "love" and "devotion" and "hope" can be when they last only moments at a time. It's a hard, hellish lesson to learn that for people like her, no matter how intense and powerful an emotion is in any given moment, it can be forgotten or used for manipulation in the very next.

[rfriesen]

This conversation is basically just to let her know that things are over, so she knows to expect divorce filings come Feb. I'm just not the type to have that conversation over a text of phone call, whether a person has BPD or not.

I think this will feel best in the long run, just so long as you can handle it in the short term. When I was ready to end things with my ex, my therapist said, "And, you know, these things can be done with a letter or a phone call, if it's just too hard in person." I said, no, I've never broken up with someone that way and I feel I should at least face her and tell her what I'm feeling and going through.

Well, maybe my therapist knew a thing or two, because the emotional chaos that followed and the hysteria and rage and begging me not to go ... .all added up to me promising to work through the pain with her and added about 8 months to our relationship, and certainly the most difficult 8 months. Yet, all that said, I don't regret facing my ex through it all. Now that I'm starting to feel more stable and more myself, I can see how I'm going to be looking back on it all and at least feeling like I never took the easy way out. I gave what I could, went to my breaking point, and finally let go. But I didn't run from the hard talks and that gives me a certain satisfaction now.

So good luck to you! I hope it doesn't turn into 8 more months of torture!
No, you sound much more prepared, obviously, than I was for my first attempt at ending things. I just wanted to say that I understand you wanting to do things the way that feels right for you, regardless of how difficult a person your ex can be. Just be sure to take care of yourself doing so.

[ICantFixHer]

I picked up 75% of my remaining belongings from my ex yesterday, I could not fit anymore stuff in my van, so I have to see her one more time in a month or so.

Yesterday, after I'd packed my van, she asked if we could talk and I said "yeah." In less than a minute I found myself getting angry over her flip-flopping on the cyber cheating incident and she said, "You can go now." So I just got up and as I was walking out the front door I said, "Skunk."

Her last word to me was "___!"

I drove off thinking how perfect an ending this was, both of us still doing the same thing to one another. It was one of a thousand moments over the last 10 years where I knew it would never work.

I am in full NC as of yesterday afternoon and she has already left emails and messages saying she's sorry, then blaming it all on me, then threatening to "tell it all" on social media, then begging me to at least talk to her -- she is suffering, after all --  to asking me for "closure" by calling her back and "ending the interaction" on a "better" basis than we did yesterday.

Personally, there is nothing I can say to give her closure, other than what I already said: skunk.

[Mr Orange]

"Skunk" sounds like the closure she deserved, to be honest. If I were you, I definitely would not offer her the chance to end on a more positive note. In my experience, and from reading the experiences of many others on here, it seems very often that they just can't stand it when they know deep down that they behaved badly and want to get things back to an okay place, so they can bait YOU into being the one to say something nasty in a moment of weakness. Then, they can bail and tell themselves (and everyone else) "See, he really was a total jerk". Probably the best thing for her (not that it will necessarily result in change) would be to have to deal with a relationship ending without her being able to walk away with her own BS story of how she was an angel. Trust me, they are more aware of their awful ways than most people would think. It's just that they live so moment to moment, they really don't ruminate enough to really process and learn from their toxic ways the way us nons have to face and learn from our mistakes. Just my two cents.

[rfriesen]

Trust me, they are more aware of their awful ways than most people would think. It's just that they live so moment to moment, they really don't ruminate enough to really process and learn from their toxic ways the way us nons have to face and learn from our mistakes. Just my two cents.

Couldn't agree more. My ex could even articulate this. In explaining her refusal to reflect on her own behaviour (despite saying she would do anything to be with me), she just said it hurt too much to dwell on things or to try to make sense of what happened. She said, "It's why I always told you I hate to be alone. You love to think things over and try to explain them. You dwell on everything and can't let go. I like to move on. What's done is done. Why should I be alone? I've always just moved on because it feels better than dwelling on the past."

Of course, in her way of seeing things, I'm the one with the problem because I "dwell" on things. E.g. if she screams and yells hysterically for two hours, I try to ask her why once she's calmed down. She would rather forget about it and "move on". If she begs and pleads for me to stay and work things out, then I ask her what she would change about her own behaviour ... .that's me "dwelling" and not moving on.

I mean, I agree there has to be a balance between holding onto the past and moving forward. But, in my humble opinion, my ex has a pathological inability to think through the past (or even her present behaviour). And, in the spirit of letting go of the past, eventually I realised I had to let go of whatever connection it is that we had.

[ICantFixHer]

I definitely would not offer her the chance to end on a more positive note.

She texted me earlier this afternoon saying she will call me tonight so "we can have one last pleasant conversation, I feel bad about the way we left things yesterday, if you have any compassion at all you will take my call."

I understand this is a control move on her part and nothing more; I felt her last word to me -- "___!" -- was totally wonderful, yet one more acknowledgement of the depth of her disorder.

I was flip-flopping about taking her call but I will definitely NOT, now, thanks to you Mr. Orange. Thanks for the reminder my friend, it is much appreciated.

You love to think things over and try to explain them. You dwell on everything and can't let go.

"Stop examining things so closely." - The Skunk

She'd say that all the time: "you are looking for things." I wasn't looking for anything, "things" happened in front of my face. She was living under my roof, of course I am going to examine things if they seem a f*cked up mess or if she is lying to me.

[Mr Orange]

I definitely would not offer her the chance to end on a more positive note.

She texted me earlier this afternoon saying she will call me tonight so "we can have one last pleasant conversation, I feel bad about the way we left things yesterday, if you have any compassion at all you will take my call."

Yep, you're onto her ways my friend. You identified what she tacked onto that statement that probably worked for a long time, just as it worked with my wife on my for a long time. They have a wonderful acronym for it around here: FOG. It's one of their preferred weapons, or maladaptive coping mechanisms if you prefer a more clinical term.

Cheers to your progress.