Do members agree with the following statement?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Without treatment, BPD relationships always get worse over time, never better. 

[Wize]

Without treatment, BPD relationships always get worse over time, never better. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

Do you mean an individual relationship?  If so, then yes, I agree. 

Triggers crop up over time and only become worse.  The better and more stable a relationship is, the more triggering it will be, because the pwBPD will be looking for something to go wrong.  Stability leads to engulfment fears, but also to the fear that this MUST go wrong because everything else has gone wrong for them.

If you mean the relationships in an individual's life, then . . . not necessarily.  A more codependent or disordered partner can sometimes make a relationship work with someone who is seriously disordered.

[fromheeltoheal]

Without treatment, BPD relationships always get worse over time, never better. 

I wouldn't say always.  Some folks with BPD are reported to mellow with age, the behaviors get less extreme, and some get worse with age, and a relationship depends on both partners and the vibe between them, could be highly dysfunctional, or sort of functional, but if both people are committed to whatever it is, it could last.

Is there a specific reason you ask Wize?

[Wize]

Is there a specific reason you ask Wize?

On a different BPD forum the members do a lot of back and forth, bouncing a lot of different ideas off each other and this was one of the questions posed.  It's a question that I think is important not only to the proposition of closure but also towards understanding that no matter how much we love/d our pwBPD, we couldn't have changed them and made them better.  Like all sicknesses, without treatment it gets worse.

I think a lot of us hope that the relationship with our replacement fails.  Not just to see our pwBPD suffer for their crimes against us but also that they may understand that they need help.  If we know that the replacement relationship will follow the same trajectory that ours did, we may take a little selfish comfort in that.

[fromheeltoheal]

It's a question that I think is important not only to the proposition of closure but also towards understanding that no matter how much we love/d our pwBPD, we couldn't have changed them and made them better.  Like all sicknesses, without treatment it gets worse.

And that would feel good because it means it wasn't our fault, yes?  And it wasn't the borderline's fault either, it was the disorder, we lose, the borderline loses, the disorder is the only winner.

And another way to look at it is the behaviors were either acceptable to us or they weren't, and if they weren't, then the relationship ending is a good thing, regardless of who ended it.  Of course there's the opportunity then for self-blame, wondering if we were good enough, wondering if someone else is "better", all valid areas of focus that we get to deal with, make decisions about, and process, and really have nothing to do with the borderline.

I think a lot of us hope that the relationship with our replacement fails.  Not just to see our pwBPD suffer for their crimes against us but also that they may understand that they need help.  If we know that the replacement relationship will follow the same trajectory that ours did, we may take a little selfish comfort in that.

Yes, the desire for some revenge and a little enjoyment in the suffering of others are normal parts of detachment.  And further down the path of detachment, there comes a point where it just doesn't matter; our exes could bounce from one tragedy to another or they could end up in a relatively stable, long-term relationship and it doesn't affect us one way or the other, we've moved on.  We are where we are, and nice to notice the various stages.

[balletomane]

Not all sicknesses do get worse with time. Some get better without treatment, and others stay the same. Also, the term 'sickness' implies a purely physical condition. It's different when it's the mind. It's not possible to measure recovery from BPD in the concrete way it is to measure recovery from flu. People's BPD journeys vary, depending on all sorts of things that you as a partner had very little control over.

But this doesn't change your point: even if your ex does start to get better (and maybe they will), you couldn't have made them do it. I also wanted to see my ex's new relationship fail as 'proof' it hadn't been my fault. But this just shifts the focus from my hurt to his behaviour, and during recovery we really need to give attention to our hurt. It really doesn't matter if he now rides off into the sunshine with his girlfriend and their lives are roses and cupcakes forever after. What he did to me was still objectively horrible and abusive. Nothing he does or is now will ever change that. It was what it was. And I need to find the self-confidence to stop blaming myself and craving reassurance, and just accept that it was abuse and that now my primary responsibility is to myself.

My ex had been in seven or eight failed relationships before me (and I don't know how many casual sex arrangements) and almost all of them ended in flames. When he was raging at me over how cruel and manipulative I was, I actually told him that the common denominator in his relationship troubles was him and he needed to sort that out. He reacted by saying that like all abusers, we pick and groom the people we want to target, and he's an easy target so he attracts lots of sinister people like me. This is more credible to him than the idea that he could do anything wrong himself. So it's highly unlikely that failed relationship number nine is going to teach him differently. He also won't suffer for what he did to me - he's been suffering for most of his life, since he was an abused six-year-old, decades before he even met me, and he will keep suffering just because he's still trapped in the same vicious cycle he got sucked into as a boy. I can't see it as justice or as a learning opportunity for him, or as anything to do with me. I hope he gets out, for his own sake, but whether he does or he doesn't, it has little to do with me now. I can't shoulder the responsibility for his life, and carrying grudges and hoping for him to get his comeuppance is just another way of me trying to maintain a stake in his life.

[StayStrongNow]

I cannot answer this from my experience or reliable sure from my research.

I do think in order for the BPD to improve from this horrible disease they need to 1) recognize they have these traits and 2) be willing to work at helping themselves.

My stbxBPDw has been misdiagnosed IMO for other anxiety disorders including PTSD without the Ts knowing her true past. Despite the Zanax, Celexa, Cymbalta, Trazodone, etc, countless therapy sessions, in-patient / outpatient clinics and other counseling, she still does what BPDs do best, convince people she is not responsible and other people are to be blamed for her perpetual drama.

Perhaps there are success stories but there has been no success with my stbxBPDw and the generations before her.

[Wize]

And that would feel good because it means it wasn't our fault, yes?  And it wasn't the borderline's fault either, it was the disorder, we lose, the borderline loses, the disorder is the only winner.

I've heard you say this a few times.  I don't necessarily disagree, but I haven't come to that realization and I don't think I ever will.  I am not willing to accept that any adult with an active volition is unaccountable for their choices and actions against others. I am currently embroiled in a nasty divorce with my pwBPD.  She will be held accountable for her behavior. 

[Wize]

she still does what BPDs do best, convince people she is not responsible and other people are to be blamed for her perpetual drama.

The absolute sh!t show that my ex has made out of her life is miraculously everyone else's fault.  How in the hell can an intelligent person actually believe that?  It's truly mind boggling.

[fromheeltoheal]

I am not willing to accept that any adult with an active volition is unaccountable for their choices and actions against others. I am currently embroiled in a nasty divorce with my pwBPD.  She will be held accountable for her behavior. 

Yes, I understand.  To clarify, a borderline is not responsible for their disorder, it wasn't their fault, but they are responsible for their behavior, as all adults are.  And all behaviors have consequences, like a drunk needs to hit bottom to have that moment of clarity and decide it's not working anymore, and seek help.  Does a borderline have a bottom?  With a disorder that exists to deny itself, and the corresponding habit of not taking responsibility, hard to come by.

I'm sorry you're embroiled in a nasty divorce, that must be very painful and difficult.  There is some peace to be found in connecting with how difficult it would be to live with this disorder, when you're no longer emotionally attached to it; that could be a worthy goal yes?  It helps to have something to aim for as we work through the emotional minefield that is detachment.  Take care of you!

[ArleighBurke]

Without treatment, BPD relationships always get worse over time, never better.  

Define "treatment"... .

I think my BPD relationship will get better if *I* employ the validation, SET and no JADE techniques on this site, and change my expectations. She may never change, but if I use the techniques then *I* will feel better, and there will be less friction between us, and things may not escalate as much, so the relationship is better.

And I think *any* relationship will get worse over time with no "assessment/tweaking/review".

[Wize]

Does a borderline have a bottom?... .There is some peace to be found in connecting with how difficult it would be to live with this disorder, when you're no longer emotionally attached to it; that could be a worthy goal yes?  

Thank you for the response and the insight.
I believe we all have a bottom.  That place at which we arrive when we know that our lives depend upon us making some different choices.  

As nasty as my ex has been in this divorce with false allegations of abuse, etc... .I still miss her and love her.  And yes, I'm looking forward to no longer being attached to the sickness.  I looking forward to no longer being emotionally attached to her.  

More importantly though, I look forward to growing as a person through this and becoming free of my codependency so that I can stand on my own without needing another person to make me feel complete.  I long for just one day where I'm not desperately lonely.  I've never had a day like that, except the few I spent with my ex.  After the idealization phase was over... .I was lonely again. My greatest fear is that I will always feel alone.

[Wize]

And I think *any* relationship will get worse over time with no "assessment/tweaking/review".

Indeed.  However, relationships with pwBPD don't just get worse, they become more abusive, more toxic and more dangerous.

[snowmonkey]

I believe there is probably a period in life for pwBPD where their disorder is at its worst. My instinct from being on this site is that it is probably whilst they are in their 30's and 40's. However, we are dealing with a very biased sample here; the type of partners that are mature enough, care enough, and possibly desperate enough to come on here possibly reflect that age group.

My feeling is that while they believe that they are still able to attract new partners they will continue with their BPD behaviours. Once they have come to the view that what they have is as good as they are going to get they will mellow and even without therapy their condition will gradually improve.

[fromheeltoheal]

More importantly though, I look forward to growing as a person through this and becoming free of my codependency so that I can stand on my own without needing another person to make me feel complete.  I long for just one day where I'm not desperately lonely.  I've never had a day like that, except the few I spent with my ex.  After the idealization phase was over... .I was lonely again. My greatest fear is that I will always feel alone.

Nice!  Those are worthy goals, and you might come out the other side of this being grateful for the relationship, because of the growth it inspired.  There is a difference between being alone and being lonely yes?  It depends on our beliefs around it and our rules about what has to happen to not feel lonely.  And that idealization phase must have felt great, like a dream come true, as it did for me, until the dream became a nightmare, like what the hell happened?  Mental illness happened, but we did get to experience the contrast between great and same-old, one, and two, we got to show ourselves that we're capable of great, so as we heal and grow we can take that with us as an empowering belief.

[Wize]

 Thankfully I'm coming to a lot of those realizations.  Talking to my sister today, I confessed that I was grateful, in many ways, for what I've learned about myself after my relationship with BPD wife was over.  I've learned to accept that desperately wanting something doesn't mean that acquiring that something will make me happy.  With my ex I had everything I could have ever wanted right there in front of me.  The beautiful house, the pretty lawyer wife, the money, the sex and never having to be alone again.

 When those things were ripped away from me I felt like my life was over.  But now, I'm accepting that none of those things = happiness. It's a paradigm shift for me. What will make me happy is becoming a whole, healthy person who is confident and doesn't let that voice inside my head-the voice that says I'm not good enough- dictate my emotional state.  I'm not there yet, but at least I want to be there now.   I know I need to get to that place.  I'm looking for the way.  

[fromheeltoheal]

What will make me happy is becoming a whole, healthy person who is confident and doesn't let that voice inside my head-the voice that says I'm not good enough- dictate my emotional state.  I'm not there yet, but at least I want to be there now.   I know I need to get to that place.  I'm looking for the way.  

And every human on the planet feels 'not good enough' at some point, it's how we're wired as social animals.  The key is with our rules and beliefs, how we make it easy to feel enough and hard to feel not good enough.

One thing that has been working for me is to live in accordance with my values, live my values.  If we say we value health, yet we smoke, for example, we're violating our own values, which is the best way to make our self esteem plummet.  So the answer?  First, determine what our values are and where we got them, enlightening in itself, and then prioritizing them and looking for conflicts, and then coming up with rules that make it easy to live by our values, like what do I have to do to KNOW I am living healthfully, in accordance with my value of health, and make it easy to do that.  That's a grand adventure in itself, and when we start living by our values, self esteem and confidence skyrocket.  It's a brand new world... .

[Wize]

 Excellent.  

It's amazing how easily we compromise our values, even discard them in order to get what we want.  Standing firm upon our values can give us that positive sense of self.  It's funny that you mention cigarettes.  That one is really tough for me right now. They help with stress so much but they make me feel terrible.  

[thrownforaloop]

I hope he gets out, for his own sake, but whether he does or he doesn't, it has little to do with me now. I can't shoulder the responsibility for his life, and carrying grudges and hoping for him to get his comeuppance is just another way of me trying to maintain a stake in his life.

balletomane, just wanted to say, that seems like a really smart outlook to have in this situation. 

[drained1996]

I believe we all have a bottom.  That place at which we arrive when we know that our lives depend upon us making some different choices.

I hear your logical explanation of this wize, problem is, this illness's bottom occurred long before we came in the picture.  It happened when they were merely children in most cases, and that was their bottom.  They had no help, no understanding, and really no conscience decision on how that was to be handled.  It just happened, and that's how their defense mechanisms came into place.  The shame, hurt, and abandonment they felt led them to the defenses we all see and discuss here.  It was their innate reaction to distresses that us non's... .really cannot relate to... .their emotional development became disordered, which is the product we see.  Their defenses soothe them... .and those are now what we must navigate.  Their defenses have become honed... .as to never allow them to feel the way they did as a child... .so most of the time, their bottom has already been met, and they will bail before they ever allow themselves to feel that way again.