Telling loved one: You are abusive. How?

[Sunfl0wer]

I always hang out with my younger cousin, and have never questioned her behavior.  I usually quietly sit by as she is emotionally manipulative and controlling to her H, without saying too much.  Sometimes I defend her husband, she actually listens, and considers her behavior.  Sometimes she justifies it, saying well, he cheated, I have a right to be checking in where he is so much.  I have explained, her behavior is "suffocating."

So what is different:  As I am working on being more present, less disconnected, I find myself avoiding her.  The reason is, I cannot stand to see her behave abusively and do not want to be around it vs my usual tuning it out to the point I am in a denial of sorts.

I would like to try to hang out with her.
That means, I am going to be more present.
She will be emotionally abusive to him.  I want to express my "new" views.  

It is not fair to her, if ten years from now, she wonders why I avoided her... . I tell her it made me uncomfortable, then asks why I never shared.  She didn't have a chance to even know any better if no one in her life was brave enough to confront her.

She looks up to me.  She does listen to me.  I do feel maternal towards her.  

So why am I feeling wimpy?

I feel guilty for lying to her to and helping her "normalize" what is not ok.  This is no longer ok for me.

I may just have to be honest.

(Her mom has BPD, so the dynamic and stuff that is "my honesty" will be very foreign to her.  She has mom's habits of "coping" and interacting with him.)

[Harri]

Hi Sunflower, how are you?  Good to see you again.

When you say tell her, what do you mean?  Sitting her down and confronting her?  Or tell her in the moment that you think her behavior is problematic/abusive/etc?

I can't say for sure, but I think the latter method may work better.  Rather than going silent when she justifies her bad behavior you could try saying something like "yes, I know he has hurt you.  You have hurt eachother and nothing is getting resolved and you are not healing the hurts by being abusive in return." and see where that gets you.  I will say I have no idea if my suggestion will work.  You know her best and more importantly, you know what your needs and feelings are.

What do you think?

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you Harri!  Means a lot u ask.  Things are tough.  Had therapy today.  EMDR I have wanted for years.  I often think I can handle anything.  This is mind blowing stuff though!  Off topic tho... .convieniently, , but glad u asked!  I'm in good hands with current T.  

Humm, good question.  I assumed that in general conversation, when I usually express gentle distaste for her behavior, I would make greater emphasis than usual, and if the time seems right, pull out some article on defining emotiinal abuse and how it may seem "normal" as it is what she is most familiar with and no wonder she would have similar dynamics.  And after she swallows that a bit, kind of gradually look for times to continue to point out behavior for her to choose to either discount it or digest.

Humm, maybe being sure to point out something empowering in changing our behavior in a relationship.  Like, we cannot control other, but us, and well, her husband really may respond well to her using tools and show her a healthy means of "control" aka self control and self soothing.  Pointing out that these are things many have, but her mom may not have equipped her with?

I have even thought just making it about me:
It really is hard for me to hear you speak xyz.  That is the kind of thing aunt xyz did to me.  It took me a while to realize how this hurt me and that it is in fact abusive.

Yea, i really didn't think it all through yet so just thinking out loud now.

So ideas are welcome!

By the way, idk if I stated, she has always been very receptive to me and looks up to me so, idk.  I don't want her to feel shame.  I want her to begin questiining her behaviors better.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, Sunfl0wer,

I have even thought just making it about me:
It really is hard for me to hear you speak xyz.  That is the kind of thing aunt xyz did to me.  It took me a while to realize how this hurt me and that it is in fact abusive.

I think framing your feedback in terms of your values, boundaries, and needs sounds like a good approach.  Keep that.

I would ask, though, what do you hope to accomplish by telling your friend you think she is abusive? Is it important to you to use that specific word with her?

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY SUNFLOWER:

Her mom has BPD, so the dynamic and stuff that is "my honesty" will be very foreign to her.  She has mom's habits of "coping" and interacting with him.

I think you are saying that your cousin has some BPD traits ("has mom's habits"?  Do you know if your cousin is  knowledgeable about BPD traits (has she read any books, etc.?).  Is your cousin aware that her mom has BPD?

Sometimes she justifies it, saying well, he cheated, I have a right to be checking in on where he is.  I have explained, her behavior is "suffocating."     

Did her husband actually have a physical affair?  Perhaps your cousin needs some help with forgiving her husband and put the situation behind her? Have either of them had any therapy? (individual or joint).

She looks up to me. . . . . She does listen to me. . . .I feel guilty for lying to her to and helping her "normalize" what is not ok

It is encouraging that she looks up to you and listens to you. You are a good cousin to want to hep her. It would be best if she would get some therapy and then it would be easier for you to share and discuss communication skills with her.

You may want to strive for some balance and set some boundaries. You can't be responsible for how she behaves.  I'm sure you don't want your entire relationship with you cousin to be about trying to fix her.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thanks NN,

There is a lot to think about there.

No, I do not want my relationship to be at all about trying to fix her.

Humm, as I am typing in this thread, my head is wrapping better around my issue.  My issue is that I have been avoiding her as I am not wanting to be around abusive people.  I feel to do so and remain passive about it is in a way, condoning it.  Yet, I do see that I cannot just point out what I do not like all the time.

I think what I need to do is make my thoughts on the matter exist, lay them on the table, then see how that naturally evolves or devolves the relationship between us.

She can deny this, continue behaving abusively. And I will naturally not want to be around her and will want to keep more distance or only want to be around her solo, when she is not behaving abusively.

Or she may consider it and want me to help her understand.  And then I can try some of the approaches mentioned.

I suppose what is happening is in my mind I am setting a boundary to not want to spend time with persons who both behave abusively AND fail to recognize it or deny my reality on it.  So I feel I can more easily spend time with her if she is working on it, even if it is not me helping.

I prefer her to be in therapy and on many occasions steered them to that decision, and often thought they would do it.  For whatever reason, they never follow through.  I think she still sees him as being the issue.  Sure, he is to blame for some things, but uh, this is a drama making thing she does to avoid her feelings on stuff where she perseverates in thoughts of others behaviors to escape her feelings.

We actually had a talk about the forgiveness stuff, and she did come a long way on that and took my advise over quitting punishing him for this, instead RA, but request some needs and reassurances vs punishing him.  She agreed and felt badly when I present it to her and considers it for a time, yet habits seem to come back weeks later.

So I guess the issue is:
How do I engage enough to connect with people, but stay distant enough to maintain my own values. 

I think this situation is an opportunity for discovering a bit of that for myself.

[Naughty Nibbler]

SUNFLOWER:

She can deny this, continue behaving abusively. And I will naturally not want to be around her and will want to keep more distance or only want to be around her solo, when she is not behaving abusively.

If the abusive behavior occurs when you are in the presence of both your cousin and her husband, you could set the boundary to leave or ask your cousin to leave (depending on where you are).  You could say something like, "I'm sorry you are having a bad day. I need to leave now and I'll see you when you are having a better day".  Perhaps if is happens often enough, she might follow through on getting some therapy.

If your cousin behaves okay with just the two of you together, then perhaps you may want to schedule some time for just the two of you to do something together. (lunch out, show, spa, etc.)

 Does your cousin's husband ignore her behavior?  Does it seem to bother him?

I can see how the situation would be bothersome.  Are you embarrassed for your cousin's husband?

[Notwendy]

This is a tricky one because of the potential reactions. For me, I have found that pointing out something in the interest in helping has backfired- as the person was triggered and then let it out on me.

I understand your conflict though, as it got to a point where "normalizing" BPD mom felt like a lie and I didn't want to perpetuate the lie or enable the dysfunction. But I also didn't want to cross the line of bandmouthing her.

Telling her the truth hasn't worked in the past. It triggers her into a rage and I don't think she hears it. I have been able to bring a few things up in a calmer moment- but that depends on my ability to stay calm as well.

I learned from co-dependency work to make the reason for saying something about me- not the other person. If I feel I am lying and enabling, then I have to consider how to stop it. With my mother, it has been about boundaries. In the presence of abusive behavior, I walk out. She seems to "get" that better than words.

As to talking- I try to answer questions as honestly as possible. ( being careful about being "baited" ). But the outcome isn't predictable. A family member who was invested in "normalizing" my mother once asked me about her. I used to just go along " no, she's fine she just had a bad day". But I didn't want to lie anymore. So the next time I said " she has a disorder and I am trying to deal with that". And I haven't heard from that person in years.

I think there can be a tendency to be angry at the messenger, and it is hard to predict how people will react. I think we need to weigh this when we consider speaking to people. Ultimately, if speaking the truth is going to benefit anyone- it is probably us- as we need to be authentic. But I also think there are times when it is appropriate and situations where it isn't likely to be effective.

[Notwendy]

As to more distant relatives. I have one who speaks abusively to her family. I cringe when she does this. But I suspect that when people do this, it extends to others as well. Remember- BPD ( and traits) is a disorder that affects the most intimate of relationships. So the closer one gets to triggering someone, the more likely they can become a recipient of the behavior.

If your cousin's husband cheated, there is probably resentment on her part- and if he cheated, something in the relationship between them needs help and repair- but they have to fix that.

It is really hard when we care about others and want to maintain a relationship with them. Yet they are part of it too. I can't completely avoid this relative at family occasions, but I try to minimize being around her as the way she speaks to her family bothers me. I also have heard her speak like this to others. When it comes down to it, I need to be fair to me, and authentic. I don't like to be around her. I can be cordial in her presence at family occasions, but I don't want a close relationship with her.

If and when you speak to your cousin, do so in a manner that is true to you, and fair to you. It isn't predictable how she could react.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thanks guys,

Part of the issue is that I only see them occasionally and they live out of my area so if I see them, then I would be staying with them for a few evenings.

Simply walking away is not always possible, and tbh, I really am not interested in walking away.  I am ok giving it a try though and expressing my reality and working with that existing.  If I am going to visit someone out of town, and the experience is going to be uncomfortable for me after trying to allow my reality to exist, then, I simply will not be visiting.

I don't have much family.  To loose this one person would be huge.

This thread is helpful though... .
I have options... .

1. I can take a time out
         A. I can walk away. (Leaving for a bit)
         B. I can say "Oh, looks like you guys need private time/to talk, I'm going to get some stuff done online for about 15 mins. (Not physically leaving, but taking a time out)

2.  I can stay present
        A.  Remain silent. (Which is what I am no longer wanting to do)
        B.  Say something that could "smooth" the moment.

Then there are choices after the fact... .
If I did not successfully take a time out but am worried my presence is validating bad behavior, I can mention something.
       - I can mention behavior
       - I can mention my own discomfort and struggle to want to visit but ... .

She does not have BPD.  They are both younger.  They actually act as tho they expect me to give advice on occasion and often listen. 

What I struggle with is expressing shocking news at behaving like her behavior is abusive because it is!  If so, why didn't I mention it before?  Because I am now less dissociated a bit.

Yes, being true to me.  It is what I want.  It is easier said than done.  I switch out and get dissociative and it isn't until after the fact that I realize I normalized something.

Maybe though, instead of starting with responding to HER behavior... .  I can start with me.  i can explain my new therapy and how I am becoming more aware of things and how in the past when things get uncomfy I dissociate a lot.  That could set a foundation for her receiving my new discomfort of behaviors.

[Notwendy]

I think starting with the focus on oneself is the safest- and most effective place. People don't like being called out on their faults.

Another way could be to test the waters. If you are present when she is snapping at her H, asking her something like " I noticed you were upset with him- how are you feeling these days?" may open the door to conversation.

Behind abusive behavior is often pain, hurt. Think of the victim triangle. She could be feeling like a victim and lashing out- which leads to taking persecutor role. If she is in victim mode, then calling out her behavior may feel like an attack.

You want to be true to yourself, but you also want to deliver a message that will work. In general, when someone is in victim mode, they aren't ready to listen. So asking about her feelings, validating that she is feeling hurt, may be a starting point. Approaching her with being abusive when she is hurting may make her feel she is being judged, not emotionally supported.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thanks Notwendy,

I think I agree, that starting with me is safest.  It also starts things off with her having to focus outside of her inner experience and be considerate.  Easier for her to listen after that type of strategy.

She is likely to just tell me how she is feeling.  That she wants out.  Yet, I want to offer her the idea of self work as a path vs just trashing this relationship.  I will not support a black/white view and trash him, like she does when talking to some friends.  She knows that, hence, it takes her a while to come to me as it is harder to hear both sides when all you want to do is slam the dude to the wall verbally with a GF.

Not treating her as a victim will be... .something that will take me effort.  As she explains the r/s falling apart, it will be hard to not feel sorry for her and want to rescue vs empower her. Hummm... .

Thx

[Notwendy]

I think it comes down to us! If we have a tendency to want to rescue or fix, then we risk being an enabler. It is very hard to see someone make a decision or do something we don't think is wise, but sometimes what we have to do is let them face the consequences of that in order to learn.

One of the things I learned in 12 step groups was that letting a friend vent, and agreeing with them may not be helping them in the long run. It helps them to feel better in the moment, but not to take steps to look at themselves. One of the hardest things to get used to was the group and my sponsor turning the mirror on me when I vented. It didn't feel good! but then, I signed on for that. Your cousin, our friends and family didn't necessarily do that when they vent to us. 

In any case, I check in with myself. If I am enabling, it doesn't feel right. Let your inner wisdom be your guide.

This is hard with BPD mom. Your cousin is not a severe as my mother is. It isn't that I make her feel like a victim. She feels like a victim, and so interprets what I say from that perspective. It can even be an innocent comment that starts it. I have learned not to try to say or do things to help her unless she asks, and even if she does ask, I think about it first, as she can hear it as criticism. However, what she feels isn't something I can control , so I say what I feel I need to say to her.



 

[Harri]

Hi again Sunflower.  I see you have received lots of wonderful advice on this issue and I have nothing to add.  I have learned a few things tho. 

Now, while this may be off topic, it is very important:  I admire your courage in seeking therapy and working so hard to be more present.  Reading your posts on the subject has helped me to see that I too often shut down way more often than I thought and sometimes for no apparent reason.  Just re-started therapy myself, so I hope we will be covering some of that as well.

Anyway, consider me an admirer and a cheerleader for ya!  BTW, my opinion is that we *can* handle anything... .otherwise we would not be facing the hard work.  It is just a matter of expanding our comfort zones... .said with a bit of fear and dread about my own stuff!  haha  I still maintain a stiff upper lip, it's just resting on top of my weak wobbly lower one right now.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hearing positive things is hard

I need to digest

Thank you!

There is no emoticon for grateful tears of mixed happy to be heard and reaching sore spot hidden in pain.  Why not?

Thanks Harri

Leaving to digest