How do you live with a BPD?

[ArleighBurke]

We were chatting about trying to be more social - one of my stated desires to my BPDw is about doing more things with other families. There are a million reasons she says we can't socialise more. Today's excuse was "she didn't trust me enough". (After 15yrs married, 3yrs ago I posted an ad on a dating site, then took it down 24hrs later and instead put all my efforts into improving the marraige. She found out 3 months after that and has never really got over it)

BPDw: (trust... .) You could be doing online dating now, and hooking up.

   Me: I can understand a feeling of distrust. Like when you talk about (hot male coworker) and say he hugged you and kissed you on the cheek, I get a feeling right then of distrust - perhaps you're having an affair - but almost immediately that feeling is replaced by the love i feel for you, and my trust of us. When you say just now that you feel i may be cheating on you, do you really believe that?

BPDw: Yes. Well, jsut to clarify, I don't think you're having sex with anyone else, but YES I believe you are chatting up people online - because you wouldn't see that as wrong.

How can she live like this? If she truely believes that I'm doing that, then how can I possibly repair the marraige? Of course she blames ME for not doing enough to re-instate her trust in me. I agreed 3yrs ago to stop porn, which i have, but she also said she still firmly believes I'm still watching it. How do I prove I'm not? My laptop is in the lounge room, unlocked, 24/7. My phone is unlocked in the lounge 24/7.


On Sat I said i was thinking of taking our 12son on a run Monday morning (i would have to drive to the park i wanted). She said "yes - I don't care". No discussion at all. Then I arranged to bring his friend as well, and since I would be right next door, to pickup a large package on the same journey - all she knew. Then Monday morning, 5 minutes before I'm leaving she says

BPDw: I just want you to know I feel annoyed that i'll be stuck here now (she'll be home with 2 daughters - we only have 1 car).

   Me: Where did you want to go?

BPDw: Nowhere. But we were home all day yesterday and I don't want to sit here all day.

   Me: We'll be back by 11am - we can go out then.

BPDw: No. You have so much work you want to do. (Actually it's housework SHE wants me to do - but actively prevents me from doing it)

   Me: No - I can do that tomorrow no problem. But if I wasn't going out now, WHERE do you think we'd go before 11am in (the small town we live in) on a public holiday?

BPDw: It's not a problem - i just want you to know how I feel.

So she never said anything when i arranged it 2 days ago. So today she wants me to either cancel my plans, or to feel guilty the whole time i'm out? I actually think she felt crap - not because of why she said, but because she recognises that she has no life - that I am going out enjoying life and she is at home miserable alone.

A common conversation topic over the past week is her trying to figure out why I am not sad/guilty about HER emotions. She's come at it from every angle. She just sees me as uncaring.



How do I respond to all this? I almost want to say "i don't care about how you feel" - especially if you put yourself there - but that feels very rude. If she has these bad feelings all the time, and projects them onto me, how can i stay married? Is there a way I can live with them? Live with her accusations and guilt all the time? I've given up thinking that she may get to a point of owning her own emotions. I can't see it. But then if *I* don't own them, she's going to think I'm an uncaring jerk all the time. That can't help her state of mind, and the marriage will still be sh1t.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

BPDw: It's not a problem - i just want you to know how I feel.

So she never said anything when i arranged it 2 days ago. So today she wants me to either cancel my plans, or to feel guilty the whole time i'm out? I actually think she felt crap - not because of why she said, but because she recognises that she has no life - that I am going out enjoying life and she is at home miserable alone.

Dont extrapolate, she feels what she feels, acknowledge that feeling and move on. You dont have to fix that feeling by feeling guilty or cancelling anything.

"yeh its a pain at times only having one car,  I get like that when I'm stuck at home too... It wont be long, let me know when I get back if you want to go anywhere... "

She is seeing your "guilt " reaction as a sight of acknowledging her feelings,. You have to find a different method of acknowledging them.

[ArleighBurke]

But what can she gain by telling me how she feels?

I understand that she has to tell me every little feeling she has. Sure. I try to listen, validate the feeling, and no longer try to problem solve. Perhaps I just want her to take some responsibility in vetting what she says. I guess that'll never happen for a BPD... .


Imagine this:

I come home with a big box of stuff and say that this is my new hobby - there's $50k of stuff in thte box.

She reacts (rightly) and says how she feels that i spent $50k on junk without talking to her, worried about finances, etc.

Then I say - wait! That's a misunderstanding. I didn't spend $50k - actually it's *worth* $50k but my friend gave it away to me for nothing because he didn't want it anymore.

She's already been triggered, and still has her feelings about money and me spening poorly etc. So she keeps talking to me about how irresponsible I am, how money is tight etc. How do I say: I accept your feeling if you thought I'd spent that money, but i havn't! So there IS NO PROBLEM. She'll just keep working through that emotion because feelings=facts.

This happens to me all the time - normally because I've said something which has been mis-interpreted. Rather than clarify, she goes off into feelings world. When the "truth" comes out (because i can clarify), she's so stuck in whatever feeling she has, that's all I hear about. I TRY to validate what she feels, but then she starts "blaming" me or talking about me doing the wrong things (which I havn't done!). I'm not sure how to validate at that point.

[ArleighBurke]

My BPDw and I had a day off together yesterday with no kids - went to a small local town and wandered, shopped, ate. 

At the end of the day we were chatting. She was again trying to work out why I left her (a few weeks ago for a week) - it occupies her mind a lot. I was saying there was a lot of good in the relationship, and some bad, and that made it difficult to balance.

Her: You are a negative person - in that you always see the negative side of everything. How am I supposed to be relaxed in our relationship if you're just pointing out all the problems. (We'd had a great day with no negativity)

Me: Didn't I say - just an hour ago - I put my arms around you in the kitchen and said "thank you for the day - It was great being together"?

Her: yes, but you didn't say why. I'm sure you had a great day but you never said "I enjoyed being with you", or "Today gave me great memories of us", or "I feel close to you after today".

Me: Oh!

Her:  I also remember you complimented me this morning. You said "I love your figure in that dress". I know that was a complement, but it doesn't count because you didn't say "I love YOU in that dress", or "YOU look good in that dress" - you said you love MY BODY - and that's not me.

Me: Oh!

Her: I don't want you to think I'm telling you that you are wrong - it just needs tweaking... .



I'm trying to work out why these things bug me - why i want to share these conversations with you all and what answer I'm wanting. Actually, I'm really trying to work out what question I'm asking? I think there are 2 things:

1) How can she live in such a horrible place? She thinks so poorly of me, yet wants to stay married to me. She can't accept anything good I do or say - but yerns it. Living like that would drive me crazy. But ultimately I cannot do anything about this. I can try to understand, but I'm sure I never will, and if she wants to live this way then that really is her choice.

2) How do *I* live with this? I can accept that I'm doing good - that i treat her well and that I'm a good person despite what she thinks. I can listen to her, and validate her feelings, but then I just need to shrug and go on? Is that the path? She'll still feel crap because I'm not changing my behaviour to make her feel good (and even if i do chage my behaviour it STILL doesn't make her feel good anyway). Is this radical acceptance? Seeing her pain, seeing her struggle, hearing her blame me, knowing I cannot do anything different, knowing that although she'll always SAY she loves me but also that I annoy her with everything I do but she'll never leave me - I think it's the opposites in her that I cannot grasp - that what she does and says and feels are at complete opposite ends - the 2 halves that never line up that I can't work out.

I got to the point last night where I saw that perhaps I am still trying to fix her, to solve HER problems - and because *I* couldn't live like her, I'm struggling because i can't just let her live that way - I'm trying to change her.

Maybe.

Can anyone tell me what my question is? So that I can try to find an answer for it?

[waverider]

Your question is why do I feel like I have to JADE? Even if you don't go there, you feel the pressure to.

Validation doesn't solve everything, it just oils the works. If it doesn't work then shrug it off and let it go.

pwBPD have a million and one unanswered questions, many of them simply don't have any answers, non the we can supply satisfactorily anyway. There are a lot of conversations where you simply wont get closure.

Asking questions is a process to them and you can't fulfill a process it keeps going. That is the neediness, or black hole you hear about

[flourdust]

Me: Didn't I say - just an hour ago - I put my arms around you in the kitchen and said "thank you for the day - It was great being together"?

Her: yes, but you didn't say why. I'm sure you had a great day but you never said "I enjoyed being with you", or "Today gave me great memories of us", or "I feel close to you after today".

Me: Oh!

Her:  I also remember you complimented me this morning. You said "I love your figure in that dress". I know that was a complement, but it doesn't count because you didn't say "I love YOU in that dress", or "YOU look good in that dress" - you said you love MY BODY - and that's not me.

Me: Oh!

Her: I don't want you to think I'm telling you that you are wrong - it just needs tweaking... .

I think this is a classic BPD no-win game. I used to call it the "scripts" I was supposed to memorize or intuit. It didn't matter what I said or meant; there was a post hoc explanation from her that I hadn't used the proper wording that would have made everything better, therefore her sour mood and abusive behaviors were my fault.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is bulls***.

If she is feeling sad, abandoned, depressed, or empty, it must be because you've done something to fail her. Even if your surface behaviors appear positive, affectionate, or affirming, they must be wrong somehow, because she still feels bad. So your feelings are her fault.

For a while, I tried to memorize these scripts, only to either fail because I couldn't remember the precise wording, or because there was a brand new script that she informed me of, or because the script didn't really matter -- she was still able to go off on me regardless of what I said.

If I may quote the WOPR in War Games, "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

[ArleighBurke]

OK. So I guess my question then is ":)o I need to do anything about this?". She lives her life feeling bad about me, the relationship, our interactions - but stays married to me. She complains *all the time* but stays. So is there actually a problem I need to fix? Or do I just live my life and kind-of ignore her (listen, validate then ignore). Do I treat all her negativity and nit-picking as just "the way she is".

[waverider]

OK. So I guess my question then is ":)o I need to do anything about this?". She lives her life feeling bad about me, the relationship, our interactions - but stays married to me. She complains *all the time* but stays. So is there actually a problem I need to fix? Or do I just live my life and kind-of ignore her (listen, validate then ignore). Do I treat all her negativity and nit-picking as just "the way she is".

I wouldn't say ignore, rather just dont take it to heart. Live your life alongside her, not around her.

Dont allow yourself to be dysfunctional by association.

If you can't do that then that is for you to decide if it is enough for you.

[ArleighBurke]

I've certainly felt very different since I left (for a week before I came back). I though I was detached prior to leaving, but I am really detached now. Affectionate, loving, caring, but not tied to her. But unfortunately still trying to make her life better if I can... .

[waverider]

I've certainly felt very different since I left (for a week before I came back). I though I was detached prior to leaving, but I am really detached now. Affectionate, loving, caring, but not tied to her. But unfortunately still trying to make her life better if I can... .

Sometimes its easier to make someones life better simply by being there rather than trying to lead them. That can make them feel lesser and resentful.

[ArleighBurke]

She keeps telling me that to make her life better I need to change. So I need to "hear that", validate it, and then ignore it!

[waverider]

She keeps telling me that to make her life better I need to change. So I need to "hear that", validate it, and then ignore it!

pwBPD struggle with the difference between "need" and 'want'.

She needs you to be you so she knows who you are, so do you. She wants to try to change you because she doesn't know what she needs, but is constantly searching for a quick fix and believes that is to be found by changing things and people.

Her problem is from within not from her environment hence she never reaches a resolution as she is changing the wrong thing, believing what she wants is what she needs.

Confused? ... .not half as much as she is

[Cat Familiar]

To answer your original question of how to live with a pwBPD: OBSERVE, DON'T ABSORB.

Not my own thought--don't know who to credit, but the concept works for me!

[Bpdsupporter]

Sounds like you think she's ridiculous and wish she would be more logical. But she has a mental illness. Her logic won't make sense sometimes. Your going to have to accept that and be more compassionate and loving. I know it's hard. But you didn't really validate her reality you just were defending your case and renforcing her fears. When someone with BPD expresses their feelings they usually start quiet and only get louder and more frantic when they aren't heard. If you take her feelings more seriously and really see where she is coming from early on it will help you so much. Have more compassion she's the one with the illness and is suffering more than you can imagine.

[Cat Familiar]

Sounds like you think she's ridiculous and wish she would be more logical. But she has a mental illness. Her logic won't make sense sometimes. Your going to have to accept that and be more compassionate and loving. I know it's hard. But you didn't really validate her reality you just were defending your case and renforcing her fears. When someone with BPD expresses their feelings they usually start quiet and only get louder and more frantic when they aren't heard. If you take her feelings more seriously and really see where she is coming from early on it will help you so much. Have more compassion she's the one with the illness and is suffering more than you can imagine.

It's easy to tell someone to "be more compassionate and loving" when you're not married to a pwBPD and have children with them. So many of us nons are at the end of our rope and we've been trying to be compassionate and loving for years and we're entirely burned out. There is no more "more".

Yes, we do need to validate and accept our pwBPD's feelings, but it's also important that those of us here need to validate the non.

[ArleighBurke]

Cat Familiar: Thanks for jumping in and defending me, but I take BPDsupporter's comment. I *DO* struggle with her lack of logic - and I keep looking back at conversations and thinking that I really wasn't validating.

Validation is difficult. DIFFICULT. I have had a lot of success validating the children - I can hear their feelings, and validate them, empathise and "live" in their emotion for a little while - then talk about a solution/moving on. I'm quite proud of my ability to do that now.

But with my BPDw it's different. I think I really struggle to validate because she puts the blame for all her pain and suffering on ME. When the kids say "You did X - I hate you" I can understand that they don't really mean it. But when my wife says it - I truely feel she fully 100% believes it! And in my struggle to not JADE, I lose the ability to validate.

I am torn. I know she suffers much more than me everyday. I know she has an illness. It's not fair that she has it. And it's not fair that I am subject to it. But why should I suffer to ease her suffering? How much of my suffering is too much? I want to support her - but I cannot do so at my own detriment.

[sempervivum]

I believe many of us nons share this feeling of injustice from enduring the BPD´s "tantrums". We endure children because we know it´s a stage in their growing up, but in spite of more or less knowledge about a BPD´s  way of functioning, we keep seeing grownups in front of us and are baffled with their immaturity.

That is one of the hardest things to cope with.

[waverider]

I believe many of us nons share this feeling of injustice from enduring the BPD´s "tantrums". We endure children because we know it´s a stage in their growing up, but in spite of more or less knowledge about a BPD´s  way of functioning, we keep seeing grownups in front of us and are baffled with their immaturity.

That is one of the hardest things to cope with.

You have authority over the kids so dont feel powerless. You have no authority over another adult, added to which it is entrenched behavior.

[flourdust]

This is what has led me to divorce. I can understand, intellectually, that my wife is suffering and her only (maladaptive) strategy for relieving the suffering is to project it on to me with verbal and emotional abuse.

But the abuse still hurts me and it takes up a giant space in my life that should be occupied by love and partnership.

The choice is mine -- sacrifice my life to make hers less painful or put my life first. I chose not to make that sacrifice.

[sempervivum]

I believe many of us nons share this feeling of injustice from enduring the BPD´s "tantrums". We endure children because we know it´s a stage in their growing up, but in spite of more or less knowledge about a BPD´s  way of functioning, we keep seeing grownups in front of us and are baffled with their immaturity.

That is one of the hardest things to cope with.

You have authority over the kids so dont feel powerless. You have no authority over another adult, added to which it is entrenched behavior.

You are right, only, I was thinking more about the always present feeling of disappointment of not having an emotionally supportive partner. At least that is how I feel. I really searched and found other firm things and people in my life in order not to be too obsessed with BPD-ism .   Some people find other partners, I don´t want to, so I miss a big component of my relationship. Compensations are just compensations. I am not interested in power, quite the contrary.

I see the flourdust´s reply in the meantime. This is exactly how I feel, that maybe all this is too much. I am still not on the divorce path, but maybe I might be redirected for the sanity/health sake.

[waverider]

The important thing is before you make the decision to stay or not, you need to find that level of acceptance of what you can change, what you cant, and what you are willing to accept. Until then it is not an educated choice that you will be able feel comfortable with.

Just to reach that point at least needs a good commitment to try and improve things.

[Bpdsupporter]

[quote author=ArleighBurke link=topic=293077.msg12759473#msg12759473 date=146241486

But with my BPDw it's different. I think I really struggle to validate because she puts the blame for all her pain and suffering on ME. When the kids say "You did X - I hate you" I can understand that they don't really mean it. But when my wife says it - I truely feel she fully 100% believes it! And in my struggle to not JADE, I lose the ability to validate.

I am torn. I know she suffers much more than me everyday. I know she has an illness. It's not fair that she has it. And it's not fair that I am subject to it. But why should I suffer to ease her suffering? How much of my suffering is too much? I want to support her - but I cannot do so at my own detriment.[/quote]
My pwBPD blames me alot for his pain. We went through a really rough patch a few months ago and he still will bring up every insensitive word I said all these months later. It's usually triggered when he's really afraid or experiencing some type of stress.  I mean he will start to go on and on about how much I hurt him and I use to wish he would just get over it. But that was only making things worst.

So the best thing to do is treating her emotions the way you do with your children. It's hard the position your in because you ultimately are like the only adult in the house. But I will tell you this the more she feels validated the happier you will be and when she gets illogical just know that she's really suffering a whole lot.

It's not easy this type of relationship and we all can get fed up for sure. But I've just learned that the more compassionate empathetic and validating I am the easier it is living with my pwBPD.

Remember this is a legitimate mental illness not someone trying to intentionally drive you nuts. I'm sure she loves you so much and it  scares her to death the very thought(literally) of you leaving her or abandoning her. If she blames you try not to take it personal... I know easier said than done. Because even though she's blaming you outwardly she really isn't blaming you at all she just feels so worthless and  hates herself.

[sempervivum]

We all share the same experience but with individual differences. The top question here is "How do you live with ... .?"

For myself I can say I live with a daily coping.

The strange thing is that I somehow felt at the beginning that my (then future) husband is mentally not completely, let´s say, standard. That awareness is present from then on, but it simmered as a mixture of  denial and belief that life will change some traits, in both of us. That was just an instinct, prior to any knowledge.

After I started gaining knowledge, I accepted all this as a life challenge, not just for the sake of it, but for the sake of commitment. My present flashes about possible leaving come from pure exhaustion and material wear (material here is me).

This is just to illustrate what might happen to anyone. I don´t know will I be able to recover from my present state, but this direction in life is also possible.

[waverider]

For many the turning point towards 'centeredness" and less insecurity doesn't come until they reach a point where they are willing to let it go if their values and boundaries are not respected. It is easier to live with a choice than a default.

In other words total commitment to staying keeps you trying to dodge bullets (living reactively) rather than make a stand and be prepared to let it fail if necessary (proactive living).

It takes a commitment to thrive more than survive.

[Cat Familiar]

I guess it's a bit easier for me than for some of you, because I've had the experience of ending a marriage with a BPD husband. The second time around with a BPD husband, who fortunately is higher functioning and not as extreme in his behavior as the first, I've been more pragmatic.

It's like I have a mental spreadsheet of plusses, minuses and neutrals in the relationship. When I feel irritated or overwhelmed, I look at the sum total, and so far it always adds up on the plus side.

It would be really easy for me to pontificate and advise others to really consider the totality of the relationship and how it's affecting you, but everyone has to come to terms with that on their own. After I left my first husband, so many friends told me that they couldn't imagine how I could have stayed with him for so long. I told them, "Why didn't you say something?" But of course, until I was ready to make changes, I wouldn't have been able to hear what they had to say.

[ArleighBurke]

I know she's hurting - all the time.

But in her mind, *I* am causing her the pain, and if *I* would just stop those behaviours then she'd feel better. I can validate her FEELING, but ultimately I am disagreeing with her statement. So she's sees that I am NOT changing. (I'm not sure how she keeps feeling love for me given that - but I know she does).

Should I be vocally disagreeing with her? Is that the T in SET? Listen, acknowledge her feeling, empathaise, but then say "I'm not doing that". The vibe I get from everyone is that every technique needs to be tweeked - we need to find what actually works for our particular partner. I know mine responds VERY well whenever *I* admit blame, or not being strong enough, or not supporting her enough. But I can only do that in very rare situations or I will lose my mind.

I'm still trying to work out "How to live with her"

[waverider]

I know she's hurting - all the time.

But in her mind, *I* am causing her the pain, and if *I* would just stop those behaviours then she'd feel better. I can validate her FEELING, but ultimately I am disagreeing with her statement. So she's sees that I am NOT changing. (I'm not sure how she keeps feeling love for me given that - but I know she does).

Should I be vocally disagreeing with her? Is that the T in SET? Listen, acknowledge her feeling, empathaise, but then say "I'm not doing that". The vibe I get from everyone is that every technique needs to be tweeked - we need to find what actually works for our particular partner. I know mine responds VERY well whenever *I* admit blame, or not being strong enough, or not supporting her enough. But I can only do that in very rare situations or I will lose my mind.

I'm still trying to work out "How to live with her"

Truth is every victim needs a persecutor, the more her world shrinks the less players she can assign that role to, so you are it.

The goal is to deflect that role away from you on to something external, even if its only  "the system" "the government', "the neighbours" " her family" or some other third party where it has no real impact.

At the moment my wife is on the warpath wanting to sue a hospital she went to 4 years ago for a whole bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with them. It will fizzle out and go nowhere, buts she will have her fill of victim drama in the meantime, then it will be back to pouring on her family again.

Each drama is a runaway train heading for a cliff, I stay off that train and I no longer stand on the tracks trying to stop it, i'd just get run over

[sempervivum]

As Waverider wrote, avoiding bullets is not a recipe for success. I found myself a lot of times doing exactly that. Later on when my h and me calmed down, I always knew I should not have done that, but too late. It seems he has some knowledge or sense to catch me in my weak moments.

God, its a really long and painful road!

Yesterday we had a conversation when I told him some things, in a really calm manner. These "things" were an attempt of setting boundaries where I told that I understand him, his feelings and fears, but I cannot endure being addressed the way he does it, it damages my sanity. During the conversation he accepted all this without special reaction, but later in the afternoon he got drunk and asked me directly do I have "another solution for my life", meaning do I want to leave him.

I guess he thinks it is only natural to have me as a punching bag, that I am a god who has to be here to provide him with his needs, but at the same time be ready to take any possible blame or criticism.  His need to humiliate me between the lines is bigger than anything.

[Cat Familiar]

I guess he thinks it is only natural to have me as a punching bag, that I am a god who has to be here to provide him with his needs, but at the same time be ready to take any possible blame or criticism.  His need to humiliate me between the lines is bigger than anything.

I think lots of codependents feel strong enough to handle the first insults and verbal abuse in a relationship. We can ignore it or rationalize it. Problem is, it then starts to become a pattern and we've find that we inadvertently signed up as doormats. That certainly happened in my first marriage. My ex-husband was so accustomed to yelling at me and saying abusive things, he even behaved that way in front of his mother when she was visiting. She would catch my eye and I could tell she was mortified that her son was being so unkind.

When the nastiness started happening in my second marriage, I was feisty, having gone through hell in the first and finding my spine. However, nothing was accomplished by my directness and calling him out on his nasty attitudes. We did counseling for a year and little was accomplished there, other than slowing down some of the ugliness. What was extremely beneficial for me when I began individual therapy with the same psychologist almost two years ago, was that she confided that my husband had a personality disorder. She also told me recently that he had been abusive to me back then when we both were seeing her. That caught me by surprise. I had been the recipient of such extreme abuse in my first marriage that I wouldn't have even classified the verbal nastiness from my second husband as "abuse".

I think we codependents get used to some really ugly behavior and feel like we can "take it".

[byfaith]

I think lots of codependents feel strong enough to handle the first insults and verbal abuse in a relationship. We can ignore it or rationalize it. Problem is, it then starts to become a pattern and we've find that we inadvertently signed up as doormats.


I think we codependents get used to some really ugly behavior and feel like we can "take it".

Great observations Cat. After five years of being a doormat I realize I can't take it anymore. I am working on changing my behavior (seems like it is taking forever but I am getting there)