Mom dsyregulated for 24 hours

[Depression = 72% of members]

I confronted my mother about 8 weeks. I just came out and said "What you did was not OK", and that I would not tolerate being shamed any more. Nor would I tolerate being treated poorly.

She did not speak to me for 3 weeks after that, even saying that she could not have a relationship with me any more.

It calmed down when I made an effort to discuss it.

This last weekend, she shamed me in front of my children again, and I calmly said that she had hurt me and that I would be leaving the situation if she continued. She continued by getting angry and abusive,  So I left.

Later she said she had a right to express her feelings, and that I should listen. I got quite forceful and told her I was not interested in the drama, walking away again

She did not speak to me for 24 hours, and wrote me a letter, which I completely ignored and did not read. I gave her a hug after 24 hours and she had calmed down by then.

Will she ever respect my boundaries, or will this go on forever? I do not want my children exposed to it. On the other hand its good for them to see boundary defence, so that they can do so with their mother, my BPD/NPD ex

[Moselle]

I confronted my mother about 8 weeks. I just came out and said "What you did was not OK", and that I would not tolerate being shamed any more. Nor would I tolerate being treated poorly.

She did not speak to me for 3 weeks after that, even saying that she could not have a relationship with me any more.

It calmed down when I made an effort to discuss it.

This last weekend, she shamed me in front of my children again, and I calmly said that she had hurt me and that I would be leaving the situation if she continued. She continued by getting angry and abusive,  So I left.

Later she said she had a right to express her feelings, and that I should listen. I got quite forceful and told her I was not interested in the drama, walking away again

She did not speak to me for 24 hours, and wrote me a letter, which I completely ignored and did not read. I gave her a hug after 24 hours and she had calmed down by then.

Will she ever respect my boundaries, or will this go on forever? I do not want my children exposed to it. On the other hand its good for them to see boundary defence, so that they can do so with their mother, my BPD/NPD ex

[Notwendy]

I think you are doing great with boundaries.

I think you are correct when it comes to demonstrating boundaries to your children. I felt this was a difficult line to walk on. I didn't want to model disrespect for parents, but the alternative was being a doormat and this isn't a good model either.

Over time, my kids were able to realize that my mother has a disorder and see that I was doing the best I could with a difficult situation. I wouldn't expose kids to rages and being in the line of fire, but if mom wanted to not speak to me, they didn't need to be affected by that.

Your mom is who she is and reacts as she does. I would say that this is how mine reacts to boundaries and it is what it is. However, most of the time the reaction is temporary and when over, it's over for her ( and she expects it to be forgotten). This puzzled us kids as Mom could rage at us, then later act as if it didn't happen.

Mom's gotten angry - said things like she is not sending the kids any gifts, then when their birthdays come around, call to ask what they want. We've just come to accept that she is going to do what she chooses to do. Boundaries on our side are for our behavior, not hers. I don't accept abuse, but that doesn't mean she changes her behavior.

What has changed though is the level of drama between us. It takes two to get on that drama triangle. The lessons- not to JADE, validation, have improved the quality of our interactions.

[HappyChappy]

Hi Moselle,

Wow, you confronted  your BPD, I can see why you would want to do that.  I can also see that you got the response we’d expect from a BPD. I.e. they simply won’t accept they’ve done anything wrong, hence the change must come from outside of them – i.e. from us. Did you prepare this ? Did you use systematic communication tool like S.E.T. ?  If I think back to confronting my  BPD she use to get very aggressive, sometimes throwing thing that would break (mainly for effect). So I’d say you got an good response there, well done.

I would also agree it’s good to show your kids that we must stick to healthy boundaries.  You've demonstrated we can maintain boundaries, even if your BPD throws all she has at them. Because as you point out, you can simply walk away from her if she doesn’t accept them. Thanks for sharing I think many members will find your thread helpful. They do say you should pick your battles, so what boundaries are non negotiable ? Are there other issues you want to confront your BPD with, other than boundaries ?  

[Notwendy]

Here's another take on my mother's dysregulations that may help you. When my mother does this, it is a way of getting rid of her bad feelings in the moment.  It can be over a boundary, or anything that makes her feel bad. I compare it to throwing up. If a child has a stomach ache, and they throw up, they usually feel better.

After these dysregulations, I notice that most of the time, she feels just fine. As far as she is concerned, if she feels fine, I should too. Just move on, forget.

I think the problem is that, it doesn't work this way with us. These dysregulations are emotionally distressing. I think we can deal with them in ways- one is boundaries, but we can also choose to ignore them, like we would a tantruming child.

This has helped me not be as reactive to my mother. I don't accept abuse, but her emotions don't usually get to me as much. I use the triggers to learn about me. If she can trigger me, then that is a hurt I need to work on.

My mother upset me when she brought up my father. That's a tough one for me, but it wouldn't have been if I was able to manage my own feelings about that. So I know I need to work on the grief. A little while after that phone call, she called me again about a recipe! As if it didn't happen. She felt good, forgot about it, and expected me to go on as if nothing happened. This time, I chose not to react, give her the recipe briefly and go on.

We don't have to accept abuse, but we need to be mindful to not perpetuate the drama. Reacting to her by saying something would have gotten us both back on the drama triangle. Trying to make her see my side in this doesn't work with her. She's not able to. What works is boundaries and working on my own emotions.

[Moselle]

Thanks folks, your replies are so helpful.

Some background to this. Even after being here for 2,5 years dealing with a high conflict divorce from a BPD/NPD spouse, I was still partially blind to my mom's disorder which I endured growing up. And I'm not really sure what it is. There are more Narcissistic traits than Borderline,  but there was alot of shaming me as a child and excessive control/manipulation as well as rages. I found myself, even as an adult, obedient to her. Do this, do that! And I did it for the most part.

I eventually decided to confront her as my primary childhood abuser about 8 weeks ago. I was soo scared of the rages which indeed happened as expected. But I held my ground on behalf of my inner child, who had no choices growing up but to endure this abuse. I said to her "I am an adult now and I choose not for abuse".

It was a crucial point in my recovery, to confront my abuser and say "It's not OK".

It's also lonely and scary because my "safe" haven is no longer there and it means I must face much of life without her, whereas before she played a key role in it. I don't trust her any more because she is unsafe.

I'm learning to individuate at 42 :-( but its better late than never.

Thanks again for your responses! It's not so lonely when there are other fine folks  here who open up, and share their pain, experiences and challenges.

I know it's healthy, but I'm really not that excited about defending my boundaries all the time with my 74 year old abuser. Especially since my view of what I considered a happy childhood has been shattered.

[Notwendy]

If it makes you feel any better, I also didn't come to terms with my FOO until middle age. There were many things that contributed to that. One is that, what we grow up with can feel "normal" as we don't know any other way. The other is that in many families, there was a lot of good along with the dysfunction. My idea of abuse was truly neglecting/physically harming a child. Aside from the dynamics involved with my mother's issues, I did have a good childhood in many ways. We kids were cared for-clothing, education, nice warm home.

Then, there was the fact that Mom's issues were denied and secret- even if they were right in front of us. We knew it wasn't normal to have a raging parent screaming around the house. Then, the next morning Mom would act like nothing happened. If we asked we were punished. Or it was minimized " all parents have arguments" . As I got older and asked more questions- the answers were "because of you". I was told I was the cause of my parents' problems, that my "talking back " to my mother made her this way. I actually believed them.

Once I left for college, I didn't see the dysregulations. My parents told me all was fine. If they happened when I was home visiting, I assumed it was me!.  But until I was an adult, and had a fuller picture of normal behavior, I was not able to see the full picture.

I did feel a sort of shock. I knew she had BPD but not how to deal with it. I was also unaware of the family dynamics involved. I started to pull away from the family, establish boundaries. They didn't like it. They were angry at me for ruining the "happy family".  But "happy" to them meant me pretending all is well while  being Mom's emotional caretaker and doormat. Maybe that made them happy but I couldn't do that. It wasn't easy to set boundaries, but I felt I had to, for me. 

[Fie]

Hello Moselle 

I too have confronted my FOO with their dysfunction and the absue they put me through as a child. I was 36.
I want to copy here what the other members said. What you don't know, you don't know. You were raised with emotional abuse, and you had no idea on how it would be like to be  raised by a normal family. So how could you have known that your situation was abnormal ? It's one of the reasons that made us choose BPD partners.
You are not alone in this situation. So don't be hard on yourself. Better to realize at 42 than never to realize.
And what does a number mean, anyway ? All what matters now, is the life in front of us. And if we are lucky, we still have many many years to make up for lost ones  :-)

xx

[Moselle]

Thanks Fie, it's so good to hear from you

I appreciate your note.

It is a joyful thing to discover new ways of living. Healthy ways. I have some great friends that I have made too.

Safe ones.

Life is good

Prettige dag verder

[letmeout]

This is a good thread, thanks to everyone for adding to it.

I am dealing with my 80 yr old BPD mother, whom I moved into assisted living 4 weeks ago. Her behavior since the move has been a constant nightmare, for the facility as well as myself. I am surprised they have not evicted her due to her behavior.

I don't have siblings to help me with this burden, and I thought by moving her in there that I would get some relief from dealing with her disorder, but she seems to have gotten much worse!

This weekend I have not responded to her umpteen negative voice mails or listened to her BS.  And it is always manipulative BS. Its exhausting. Should I just stay away for the most part, even though she will complain to everyone I am mean and neglecting her?

[Notwendy]

Your mother is being cared for by the staff, so yes, you do not have to respond to her when she is being mean.

You can have boundaries with her.


My mother has painted me black to several people. Over time though, some have caught on to her issues. However, boundaries are about you, not her. She can say what she chooses to say, and others can believe her or not.

My guess is that the professionals who work there have seen this before, and hopefully can handle this. When she calms down, you can visit her if you wish. What's important is that you are true to yourself. You aren't a terrible person no matter what she says.

In the past, when I met an elderly person who seemed pleasant and their children rarely visited, I would think " how can that child leave their parent alone so much?". Now, I am that child, and I don't question that any more.

BPD is a disorder of the most intimate relationships, and so a person with BPD can be quite pleasant with others and show their difficulty with close family. My mother is much nicer to her caregivers than she is with me. She has the funds to hire people to help her, and so I don't think she is neglected. When I visit, it has been to do things for her.

With the nursing home you can step back from caretaking and just visit. When she calms down, go eat a meal with her, bring some favorite take out. Keep visits short and sweet if you need to.

[Notwendy]

I also don't play the triangulation drama when my mother paints me black to others. They may think I am a terrible daughter for not spending more time with my mother. They don't know that this sweet little old lady treats her children differently. If I were to "defend" myself, it would be doing the same thing she did- try to sway them to believe me.

Instead, I let my behavior speak for itself. When I visit, I am pleasant to her family/friends, and I thank her caregivers for their job. If a neighbor did a favor for her, I thank the neighbor and I have sent thank you gifts ( cookies, etc). This is genuine. Thanks to these people, I know that my mother's needs are being met.

Since you are in a continuous relationship with your mother, I wouldn't be reactive to her. This doesn't mean not having boundaries. By not reacting, you stay off the drama triangle. For instance, if she leaves a mean message or says something, and you stay away out of anger, you are reacting. If you say " It bothers me to be spoken to like that, I will be back when you are feeling better" and then, you come back, you are using boundaries.

Change isn't easy, and your mother is adjusting to a new place, new schedule. I can guess her biggest fear- now that she is being taken care of- and you know that- she fears you won't come to see her. This may be the source of her dysregulations and saying mean things to you. Without reacting, you can show that her fears are not true- by visiting on a schedule.

Speak to the staff and decide when a good time is for her and for you. There will be things to be done- dressing, changing, meals, physical therapy, activities. A good time for both of you is when there is something you can both do together- meals, watch a show on TV. Set this up as a routine. That way, when you are gone, she knows that you have a visit scheduled and she isn't wondering when/if you will return. For instance, if every Sunday you watch a favorite show on TV together, she can look forward to this, or every Saturday you call at 4 pm.

One thing I keep in mind is that, when I was little, and helpless, I was a "victim" to my mother. Now, I am not a victim, and she can not harm me, not even with her words. It is the elderly who are vulnerable and while we need to have boundaries, we don't need to be unnecessarily reactive or defensive. What your mother says is more about her than you. Hope it helps to keep this in mind.

[Fie]

Hello Letmeout,

Should I just stay away for the most part, even though she will complain to everyone I am mean and neglecting her?

I sometimes notice that us children of BPD often talk in terms of  'should'. Like, 'should' I visit mum, or can I stay away ? BPD are masters at putting fog in us (fear - obligation  guilt).

Truth is, you *should* not do anything. You can choose to visit, or not. And in case she's abusive, please be gentle to yourself and walk away.

Your nickname tells a lot. Maybe you want some time to yourself, after which you can also resume contact with your mum. Everything is possible, and taking care of yourself is a must.

[Harri]

Hi Moselle.   So good to see you again here, though I am always sorry for the circumstances that bring all of us together.  I think of you and your girls often and still consider myself a part of team Moselle!  Go team!

Will she ever respect my boundaries, or will this go on forever? I do not want my children exposed to it. On the other hand its good for them to see boundary defence, so that they can do so with their mother, my BPD/NPD ex

She might and she might not respect your boundaries.  Over time, the way it worked with my mother, was that she eventually did learn that her usual antics would get a very firm and consistent response from me, whether that was saying stop that hurts, saying no and walking away or calling her on her crappy behavior towards me.  I was fortunate in that very hard and firm lines worked well for me.  The thing is, she was who she was and would intermittently try to push my buttons.  It felt like she was testing the waters with me.  I never softened in my attitude towards her as giving her the slightest out would reset everything and bring me back to square one (I know you know about extinction bursts).  She in no way became healthy, but the drama did decrease to more manageable levels.

So yeah, you will probably have to continue to set boundaries and whatnot, but hopefully with time, it will feel less confrontational and draining to you.

I too felt a loss when having to change the dynamic between my mother and I.  They're still our moms and we still have those emotional ties.  I really believe it is a primitive response/instinct for children to bond with their mothers... .plus, my mother had some really great qualities that I missed having in my life.  What I had to keep reminding myself of is that it was impossible to only have the good parts of her.  PDs are pervasive.  There is no good mom/bad mom, there is just mom.

I think it is great that you confronted her and spoke up when she again shamed you.  Setting an example for your kids is important but what is equally important (more?) is your Little Moselle hearing you speak up and say no to abusive treatment and for you to feel that strength and power.  So many people here talk about not speaking their truth because the pwBPD/NPD will not hear you or will deny things or rage more.  To me, that was never the goal and I knew that betraying myself again and again never worked in terms of stopping her rages.  I realized I had to stand up for me after being beaten down and making myself small so that she could maintain her delusions for 4 decades.  I had to hear me say the words, feel how they felt as I formed the words and feel the ties of abuse and dysfunction break.  Little Harri was finally supported in a healthy way and finally had someone in her court saying no, this is not acceptable and no I do not deserve that.  There is only healing and strength in that.

So good on you Moselle.  I know this is a painful and probably confusing time for you and I am so very sorry for that.  Allow yourself to sit with whatever feelings you have.  Accept them.  Keep forging your warrior of steel (titanium?) and healing Little Moselle.  You are definitely worth the fight.

Be well.  

[Moselle]

Harri, how good to hear from you. And to read how well you are progressing. Wow so much growth, so much has happened. Thanks for your incredibly insightful comments.

It's a daily effort and if we add up all those days, we see an incredible journey.

 

[Notwendy]

I think there is a function to the drama triangle in our FOO's. It seems to be a familiar pattern and a way to communicate and also express stress/feelings. The rages seem to be an outlet, and as I mentioned, they seem to feel better afterwards.

When I began to try to change this pattern for me - it did feel odd. Since the change was in me, mom would continue to relate to me in the only pattern she knew to do. Sometimes it seems she would bait me- to try to trigger me into a familiar argument. When I could feel myself being triggered, it was important to me to stay aware of my feelings and not react. As I learned to take care of these feelings, the triggers seemed to lose their strength, and the pattern changed. Then - I had to learn a different way to relate to mom. She's still who she is, but with me being less reactive, she seems calmer with me now too.

I also had to learn to deal with my feelings when she dysregulated. I needed to walk on eggshells less with her. This didn't mean being outright hurtful, just being more authentic and not as fearful of her.

It is progress- not perfection. Although she triggers me less, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Sometimes I choose to WOE in the moment rather than deal with a reaction. The difference is that, it is less often, I am more aware of my choices and part in this, and I can step away from the dysfunction a bit quicker.

We're all taking baby steps one at a time

[Moselle]

When I could feel myself being triggered, it was important to me to stay aware of my feelings and not react. As I learned to take care of these feelings, the triggers seemed to lose their strength, and the pattern changed.
 

Now this takes talent. I was triggered last night by something in my CODA group. It took me 45 minutes to come back to baseline. (Admittedly this was quite a confronting event)

Typically we don't have the luxury of 45 minutes in a heated discussion, we might have a few moments. How did you learn to stay aware of your feelings and not react? I will have a chance to practice this the coming weekend and I want to be prepared.

Sometimes I choose to WOE in the moment rather than deal with a reaction.
 

What is WOE?

What I had to keep reminding myself of is that it was impossible to only have the good parts of her.  PDs are pervasive.  There is no good mom/bad mom, there is just mom.

This is radical acceptance at it's best. We cannot change them. They are what they are.

I think it is great that you confronted her and spoke up when she again shamed you.  Setting an example for your kids is important but what is equally important (more?) is your Little Moselle hearing you speak up and say no to abusive treatment and for you to feel that strength and power.  So many people here talk about not speaking their truth because the pwBPD/NPD will not hear you or will deny things or rage more.  To me, that was never the goal and I knew that betraying myself again and again never worked in terms of stopping her rages.  I realized I had to stand up for me after being beaten down and making myself small so that she could maintain her delusions for 4 decades.  I had to hear me say the words, feel how they felt as I formed the words and feel the ties of abuse and dysfunction break.  Little Harri was finally supported in a healthy way and finally had someone in her court saying no, this is not acceptable and no I do not deserve that.  There is only healing and strength in that.

I love that you stick up for little Harri. If I can teach them this one thing, I will have done well!

[Notwendy]

You're already in CODA. 12 step groups and a sponsor helped me to deal with triggers. I looked at this from an addiction model. Being triggered to a co-dependent is like an alcoholic feeling they are about to take a drink. Don't pick up the drink  ( or the trigger) - call your sponsor- or a group member.

I may not have been able to call right away, but what I did was remove myself from the conversation. I didn't make it about the other person. A simple- "I don't feel up to this right now, I need to take a break" stopped the drama without being an accusation of the other person. It was not the drama triangle- but taking a step back to take care of myself.

Working the emotions out that were triggered with a sponsor helped.

You got triggered in a CODA meeting? Great! That is a safe place to be confronted- by people who have been in your shoes and can show you how they worked on it.

It can be done, one step at a time ( sometimes a step backwards too) .

[Moselle]

Help?

Some background.

Every two weeks I travel 6 hours to see my 3 children. We stay at my parents house and my mom is either BPD or NPD  or both. My ex is diagnosed BPD/NPD so my children get a smorgasbord of growth experiences

I took all my girls out last night to a rugby match  and they ate hotdogs, sweets and other healthy stuff.

I put them to bed last night and woke up this morning to hear my mother flipping out. My 7 year old had vomited all the aforementioned healthy food all over her bed and apparently slept through the whole thing, judging by her hair being plastered to the side of her head . It was in her hair, it was all over her pillow, duvet and bed and my mother was angry, running around like it was World war 3.

I saw my distressed 7 year old, smiled and said it's going to be OK. I took her in the shower and we washed it all out of her hair.

I got her clean dressed and changed to find that mother had stripped the bed and left the soiled duvet cover on the floor. I picked it up, added it to the clothes and put it all in the washing machine, and started it up.

Mother came screaming in, shouting that I was trying to break her washing machine because I had not cleaned all the vomit off first. I had had enough of her crazy at this point and said rather gruffly. "I won't be spoken to like that. If it continues I'm going to leave"

She has gone to her room in a sulky retreat. What should I do?

How could I have done better? This one caught me by surprise.

[Notwendy]

My first response to your post was to start laughing. Not because of your distress but because this kind of thing has happened to me so many times.

I don't know about the level of housekeeping your mother likes, but mine has to have everything as she likes it. She sees any kind of kid related accident as a willful act to cause her pain. This isn't logical. She tells stories about how I threw up on her floor on purpose as a toddler! She really believes that at age 2, I was capable of such a sinister plot!

One she was angry that we had people over and started screaming about the garbage created from the event- the paper plates, discarded food. I actually drove the trash bags to a dumpster because she didn't want that trash in her trash can!

Over the years, we have had WW3 over: a toilet accidentally getting clogged in her house, the kids putting their feet on the couch, me accidentally leaving a toy out as a child, someone not hanging up a wet towel. A   plumbing issue.

Now, I agree that kids need to be taught to hang up their towels, not put feet on furniture, pick up toys, but these are relatively minor things to discuss with them, not fly into rages over. And when kids are around, things can happen that are messy- they get stomach aches, or they have potty accidents. And things like plumbing issues can happen too.

My solution? I don't stay with my mother. We stay in a hotel. It just wasn't worth it.  I do recall the last time I did stay there and she started to rage at me. I picked up my suitcase and walked out the door and left. No words, just like that.

I still visit, but I felt it was better to leave her place and her things undisturbed. It does cost some more money to visit her, and you can consider that in the budget. Sorry mom, would like to visit more often but we can only do what we can afford. Then find a hotel or Airbnb nearby. This also had the additional benefit of not having to be there 24/7. It's a change in her routine to have extra company and people around her all the time. Although she loves to see the grandkids, this disruption of her usual routine is a stress on her and makes her prone to dysregulating. By staying nearby, we got to relax as a family, and she got some time to herself.

[Moselle]

Notwendy I'm glad I could provide you some amusement

I wish I could afford to stay somewhere else. I fly or drive just to be there every two weeks, which hits the budget already. I might hit the jackpot soon, which will mean a holiday home at the coast as soon as I can build it 

She'll be away in two weeks time, so fortunately I'll get a break from the nonsense.

As I observe her, I'm only now beginning to understand that she is definitely BPD. Your descriptions have helped me , cos I can tick them off too.

Its wierd what I accepted as normal for most of my life.

Just one more example :-) She has this thing about making me breakfast. She comes to me every day asking ":)o I want breakfast?". I don't usually eat breakfast, although I'm indifferent about it. Bizarrely it often catches me off guard. I'm either just waking up, or busy with something else when the question comes and I hesitate, knowing that if I say "no", I often get a lecture about how it is the most important meal of the day and that she is just looking after my health. If I say Yes, she looks put out for having to make me breakfast. No win :-)

Thanks for your support. I really appreciate your responses

[Notwendy]

I doesn't feel right to laugh at a person with a mental illness, but sometimes laughing at the absurdity of the situation was a coping skill for us sibs. Better to laugh than to cry, but we did both. Some of Mom's dysregulations seemed so out of proportion, that laughter ( not in front of her of course ) was a diversion for us.

If you have to stay with her, just keep in mind, it is her turf, and so her wishes rule. At least that was the way it was in my FOO. We chose to basically WOE during those times, to at least have some happy time with my parents and the kids. Now, when I visit her, I basically do the same thing- because then, I go home to my place afterwards.

But with kids - things happen- they may get a stomach ache and throw up, or track dirt in the house and a number of other triggers. So perhaps just rolling with the situation and letting it subside is a good approach.

[Fie]

Hi Moselle 

Here's another girl who smiled while  reading your last story. Hope you don't mind but I could somehow  picture how it all happened  :-)
Thought about couchsurfing ? That's free and you can also meet new people ... if this is your style at least. Just thinking of  ways on how you can break free of this obviously unhealthy environment.