New tactic

[foggydew]

I've changed boards from improving... .because my feeling is that I have been more or less replaced in my friendship role, by two not very pleasant young men. Maybe temporarily, maybe not. Whatever, I pay uBPD person a sum towards the monthly rent and I also paid the deposit for the flat. He lives a few hours' drive from me, in an area I always liked. His silent treatment and abuse over the last 2 months (interspersed with better days) has caused me to think he wants out. I asked him if he wants to continue the relationship and he said he's not sure. We've had this before and it always resolved itself.
Well, I've always been considerate about what he wants. Including keeping out of his way when I'm staying with him. But why should I not go there - I pay for it? Keep it merely business-like - a place to stay? I don't want to give up my friends and activities there. I've always asked him what he wants - he doesn't really know. So, no emotional questions, respect his space, SET. But also a clear position from me... .
Anyone think it could work?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[livednlearned]

Your approach sounds very logical 

And pwBPD tend to be less logical, more emotional.

What might be some of the feelings you would have if the roles were reversed? That could help identify feelings he will have if you arrive and stay over.

[foggydew]

So I could just text and say... .coming this week, when is the best time for you? But there is no guarantee he will answer... .I really do have to go and pick up some stuff and bring him his mail.
This is like doing a jigsaw puzzle blindfold.

[foggydew]

Well, I have new information. He's more friendly now, I met his neighbour with whom he is starting a relationship. He wouldn't speak to me alone, so I talked to him with her. She says she's just a neighbour (but she isn't). She is much less intelligent that he is, lies (he told me that in front of her in a language she claims to speak but can't understand a word of) but has a flashy sex appeal. It won't last, I know. So - do I extracate myself somehow (there are financial connections between us too) or do I sit tight and play the motherly bit again? Or still? Honestly, I just wish he would get out of this milieu of drunks, political agitators and down-and-outs before he has to join them. Conflicted? I am. But he is too, he said so.
I'm just fed up of life in general. There seems to be really no place for me in the world.

[foggydew]

On the way home he called me, and talked for an hour. Said he knows he's in the wrong company, is not sure about neighbour, wants me to come whenever I want and not pay anything. That he enjoys it when I seem possessive (I'm not possessive), doesn't know what he wants... that my losing things gets on his nerves (I do misplace things)... .And I told him that his friendship is important to me (it is, and he is a friend not a partner) and that I do not stand in the way of his relationships. We've been through this bit often before. Even he said that... he always brings his new girlfriends to me to see... .the relationships don't last long (a few weeks). And he's keeping contact with me again.
I also told him that I had been on the verge of giving up, that I felt he saw me as an enemy, not a close friend. And that even I have my limits.
So, I feel a bit better, but I know that everything can change tomorrow. Now he says that about himself too.
If you read this, you may wonder why I need this relationship. It isn't a 'relationship' in the standard way. But for me he is my family as I don't have close family. His contact and his problems make me feel useful and alive. When he doesn't have a relationship he is very much alone. For both of us our friendship has often been a substitute for family and partner during the 'alone' times. And I want this to continue...
I'm going there today.

[foggydew]

Just have this feeling of impending doom. Couldn't sleep last night. I don't want this to be so important, but apparently it is.

[lar, laris]

Hi, foggydew,

I'm sorry to hear that you are going through a time of struggle with your loved one.  It seems as if he may use a parade of shady "girlfriends" as a stay-away-come-close  tactic (towards you), and that must be very difficult, especially since you care for him so much.  I can understand why you feel nervous about seeing him, given all you've said.  How did your interaction go?

lar, laris

[foggydew]

Thanks for asking... that means a lot to me. When I arrived he was drunk and ignored me, but agreed to drive with me to an event at his parents where he had to be there at a certain time. We could talk then, he said. Then he went off to his girlfiend's. I got up, waited, called... his phone was in my room. I went and knocked, rang the bell, tried to phone her, tried later... then went alone, furious. They were furious too. He contacted me later to say he had set the wrong priorities, might see me later, but had to talk to girlfriend to see if they could have a relationship because she was in one of her lucid moments. Result- he wants to try but isnt sure.
Later I insisted he came and talked to me for a while, and it became better. He told me I was important to him. I got rid of all my anger and said I would scream loudly if he did that kind of stuff again - he said he couldn't promise he wouldn't. He asked for my forgiveness but didn't understand the difference between that and  saying sorry.
He came again today and we talked more, hampered by the fact I became ill yesterday. But he looked after me, and wants things to continue as before. Well, defused it is, at least. I have to recover before I can think or act more.
What astonishes me still is that he sems incapable of considering any other view but his own... and yet somehow realises there is something not ok with him.

[foggydew]

Girlfriend is gone, he just left her somewhere and refused to answer her Calls. They had visited her relative in Hospital- and he had been very shocked because she is in the end stages of alcohol abuse. Girlfriend is almost there too. She lies about that and everything. Good result... He sees where he could end up and has drunk nothing since. Bad result - I'm back to being at fault if he even drops something himself. But I will no longer take this seriously or personally. This is going to be a long hard pull and I'm going to Post on here whether  anyone answers or not. I need it.

[Meili]

Hey FD, that all sounds completely exhausting.

Am I reading your posts correctly? Is he engaging in a push/pull dynamic? I ask because on one hand it seems that he pushes you away with his actions, but then pulls you back in with his words about wanting to try, but not being sure.

What do you think would happen if you just stopped being pushed or pulled?

[foggydew]

Thanks for answering ... it is exhausting, and I feel exhausted. There are things going on here that I'm not sure about. Half the time I feel we don't have any kind of relationship at all, not even a friendly one. Then he says I am important. Now I have an unpleasant feeling about this very unpleasant woman... and his
role in the dynamics. His family have washed their hands of him, more or less.
He said at first he wanted to try and have a relationship with the alcoholic woman. I'm kind of family. Though I often don't feel it. Sometimes I feel like throwing in the towel, too... .

[Meili]

Unpleasant feelings should not be ignored. They exist for a reason. But, is this unpleasant woman anything that is within your control? Or, is the feeling more about how she will effect your relationship with him?

[foggydew]

This unpleasant woman is not within my control, lies consistently, may have hallucinations, is known and convicted for threatening someone with a gun, drinks 6 bottles of wine a day... .is his neighbour... and I share the flat with him a few times a month. I'm afraid of her influence, of her presence - I don'tr want her using my things... he says he wants a sex relationship with her if nothing else, as it is cheaper than going to a professional... .He said he was going to collect his things from her flat and end things ... .and when I called was just having his second shower of the day (where he is not usually so picky). He was doing so well yesterday - unless his not answering the phone (she rang 11 times) was just a ploy to make her desperate. Sometimes I have no faith.

[Meili]

It's really hard to maintain faith in the best of circumstances with pwBPD. It's even worse when things like you describe are going on. 

I must admit that I'd find it extremely difficult to believe in much of anything if I were experiencing the things that you've written. What would you like to see happen from here?

[foggydew]

What I'd really like is for him to stay away from this woman and find a relatively normal girlfriend. And to do something about his alcoholism. Honestly, he seems to be on a downward spiral and I really wanted to provide some stability to stop this. I gave him a link to a singles activity and he said he will do this. He's always difficult but the milieu he is in now really seems to bring out the absolute worst in his behaviour.
I think what I'm going to do is have little contact at first and hope his preoccupation with this woman will become less. Yes, for a young man sex is important and he hasn't had a girlfriend for over a year now - and that one only lasted 3 weeks. My sis in law, who knows him too, says she thinks he is intelligent enough to keep himself out of trouble and I should trust him. She also often works with personality disorder people. But I'm just horrified that he seems to have been manipulating this woman by not answering her calls and asking for his things back - and yet was obviously expecting to have closer contact with her (shower x 2) before he met up with her to get the things.

[Meili]

Watching someone self-destruct is difficult. Hopefully, he'll make the best decisions for himself.

Since you can't save him, or control what he does, what do you want at this point for yourself?

[foggydew]

Trying very hard to work that one out. I want a little less stress, but I want to feel I belong somewhere. I can travel, yes, and I will probably go away for a month to my home country, as I do every year. That will be in about 10 days. I have a few good friends there, and the culture is more friendly than here. It's very lonely here at the moment, because the couple of friends I have, and old colleagues, are all away on holiday. That is always the problem - I miss having a family now, and uBPD person filled this gap. At least travelling and hiking I don't miss anyone. Believe me, I really have tried to make other contacts - courses, volunteering - but everything is so non-commital, although I enjoyed it.
I think I'll write him a letter saying his choice is his choice, and I respect that as always. That I'm available if he wants to talk about the difficulties, and that I would appreciate some signs of life occasionally. That I can complain about his actions, but, as always, I appreciate the person he is and tries to be.
I'll be going there again next week, I decided, because I like the area and I want to go walking. And meet a couple of friends there. And defuse myself.
Thanks for letting me talk about it; it has been really difficult this time and has actually made me ill. How stupid of me.

[Meili]

Less stress is always good in my book!

I get the feeling of wanting to belong somewhere. I experience that as well. I'm sure that it's even more difficult when you are not in your home country. I can only begin to imagine what that's like. 

[foggydew]

Meilei, thanks. I generally don't mind being alone, like a lot of time for myself. But at the moment the loneliness is terrifying. Even uBPD person in any condition is better than this. Sis in law calls me when she has time, otherwise everyone is busy or just not around. It is always like this in summer, but when my husband was alive or Person was here or in contact, it didn't matter.  Been ill, so couldn't really go out. On Tuesday I'm meeting a friend/ acquaintance. That's not life. Tried contacting people on social media, they don't answer. Too busy.
I seem really to be getting depressed again. And everything seemed so good a few weeks ago. What happened?

[Meili]

Hey FD! 

I hope that you're feeling better today.

I can completely relate to how different it is when you have someone in your life and spending time alone versus when you don't. For me, it's a real struggle. It sounds like it is for you as well. Am I right?

Feeling depressed seems to make it all worse as well. I believe that you've said that you've been doing all the things that you're "supposed to do" when feeling depressed (like getting out into the sunlight, taking care of yourself, etc.). That's good, and I hope that you're keeping it up.

What are your plans for the weekend?

We're thinking about you!

[foggydew]

Meili, I'm sorry to hear you struggle too. Yes, at the moment it is really tough. I'm not used to being inactive, and in the past life was more about how to fit everything in and working and caring all my waking hours. UBPD person really fitted the bill after my husband's death and my retirement. If I can get myself on an even keel again praps I can go back to my caretaking role. Plans for the weekend? None, really. If it stops raining and I feel ok I'd like to go walking and mushroom hunting on Sunday; tom orrow evening a band I know are playing - but I'll probably have to go alone. Maybe I'll make some chutney tomorrow. Next week I'll go down to where Friend is... he'll be at work most of the time but I have other contacts down there, and I can go out and explore.
Thanks for the contact. It's a life-saver.

[Meili]

Thank you!

I too usually fall into the caretaker role. Not having someone to take care of has been difficult for me, but I'm learning to use it to my advantage to learn to take care of myself. It's been an interesting and fun transformation.

That doesn't sound like a bad weekend at all! I've discovered that I actually like going to see bands or dance clubs alone. I don't have to worry about what anyone will think of me and I can act as stupid as I want. It's quite liberating.

[foggydew]

I'm usually pretty good at taking care of myself, but I seem to have holes in my system! :-) Just been reading back in my BPD journal... .he just can't take any closeness, and this has been proved again and again over the last 6.5 years. Neither with me or anyone else, though I seem to be the most stable point. I have to back off and make myself stable, whatever the consequence. But that is the big difficulty. Well, if I can get me under control, and stop getting triggered, it would be good for both of us.

[Meili]

We all have holes in your systems; you certainly aren't alone in that regard. I chose to look at mine as great opportunities to learn and better myself.

Difficulty with closeness and intimacy is one of the hallmarks of BPD! From what I understand, firm boundaries and consistency are ways to reduce the fears pwBPD feel on that front. That's part of the way that we help them feel secure.

[foggydew]

I'm not used to having holes in my system; I grew up dealing with problematic situations and people, and they have followed me all my life. I'm not used to getting emotional or having a fear of abandonment - how did you manage to deal with your weak points? Meili, you sound very stable and capable.

[Meili]

I'm learning to be stable and capable. It's been a hard change to make.

I've had to go back and look at my life. Much like you, I've spent my entire life dealing with problematic people and situations. I used to thrive in chaos because it was what I've always known. I didn't realize the toll it had taken on me and the behaviors that it created.

I've been undertaking intense therapy and work on myself. With specific regard to my fear of abandonment, I can actually give my x credit for helping with that. I had to learn to love myself. Before her, I didn't believe that I was worthy of love before I could start to quash the fear of abandonment. When I was able to start loving myself, it became clear to me that I would never actually be abandoned because I was always with myself. I know that sounds trite, but it's true. It allows for a bit of self-confidence that I had been lacking.

I'm still working on these things in my life and still building them to make them stronger and more resilient. I'm also having to learn that the things that brought me to this point can no longer hurt me. It's not an easy task, but it is so completely worth it!

[foggydew]

Fear of abandonment came with my husband's death ... .therapy I tried long enough, but I have a professional persona that kicks in when I have a role and I don't seem to process anything there really. I liked my therapist and we laughed a lot... .I like the person I am usually, when I have a role, but I don't like this vacillating person who can't make her way in life any more. I can't accept the usual bounds of society, though people don't realise... I'm good at fitting in, for a while, but then I just can't take it any longer. My students always told me I was chaotic... seems to be how my brain works.
I don't know how to get back to the state of not getting hurt, as you describe it. Often I think it's ok... but then... .
Thanks Meili. Really. You are very kind.

[Meili]

You're most welcome!

I went through about 10 counselors before I found a therapist who specializes in the sorts of things that I've been through. She has done wonders for me. In my second session with her, she instantly stopped me from doing what I normally do. Historically, I was always able to give my counselors the "right" answer. They never thought anything was really wrong because I always knew just what they needed to hear. This one doesn't allow me to play that game.

So, can you find a role to play for yourself? I know that might sound odd, but give it some thought. It's a form of self-love and self-soothing.

[lar, laris]

Hi, foggydew,

I'm sorry to hear that you are struggling with your depression right now.  I'm a chronic sufferer, myself, and find that reaching out to others (here and irl), taking care of myself (exercise, balance in my day, etc.) and putting one foot in front of the other, can often mean more energy for me, or a better day the next day. 

That's a pretty solid strategy for me.  I hope you are doing as well as can be expected, today.

 

lar, laris

[foggydew]

Thanks, Meili and I.I. You really don't know how important your support of me was yesterday. It was one of the worst days I've had in a long time. I don't want to think about it too much today - today needs to be a day of action, not introspection, to keep the balance - but I will do so when I've organised myself a bit and there's not so much danger of falling into the pit. Don't need the Black Dog. I honestly think he comes when chemical changes take over after stressful periods.
I'm so sorry you are followed by the Black Dog, Iar Iaris. Your strategies sound pretty good to me!
I'll think about the role later, Meili - but I see you understand what I mean. That alone is soothing.