waif to queen to witch and back again

[earlgrey]

recently picked up on these terms.

I met the waif... .gentle and willing, a sadish story that she couldn't understand, and the littlest of little girl's voice on the telephone.

Slow morf into queen/witch (is that a b or w?)... .r/s runs its course and now we are dealing with divorce.

And I'm back with the waif (last few days).

Lost little girl victim to the nasty old world.

Is this lasting, how best to deal... .anyone been here?

Thanks EG

[VitaminC]

Is this lasting, how best to deal... .anyone been here?

Hi EarlGrey,

It's useful to have identified this pattern. Once you see the behaviours through that filter, it looks a little bit different - less confusing, I think. Although, obviously it's still confusing.

I have been there, yes. To answer your question, in my experience, it is not lasting. Not any one of the modes. What is lasting, is the switch from one to the other to the third. What is confusing is the timing of the switch. Trying to figure out if it's a switch and what might have caused it - what the trigger was, to use the language we use around here - is what keeps us nons in a state of alertness and low-level anxiety.

As for your question: "how best to deal" - as you are on the Detaching Board, the best way to deal is to not deal. What is it you want to accomplish? If it is to minimize its effect on you, then to keep yourself as grounded as possible, would be my answer. Keep reminding yourself that this is a pattern that is going to repeat endlessly for this individual.

We are none of us doomed to endlessly repeat our patterns of behaviour and thinking (we all have some, nons or not) and how we do that - not repeat - is by identifying what they are, working out why we have these mechanisms, and learning ways to cope with those things in us that free us from the auto-reactions.

Becoming aware of them is the first crucial step. Accepting that there are reasons for them and committing to getting to the bottom of those reasons are the next steps. And then the real work begins. Someone who has not done those three things above will repeat them.

How I dealt with it, and it was a long road, was first recognizing that there was a pattern of behaviour. Then slowly taking myself out of the equation (this is the part that took nearly as long as recognizing the pattern) - trying to see clearly what I was doing and checking my motivations for those things. At the point that I could honestly say to myself: "I have not caused this switch. I have tried to understand the switch by gently engaging my pwBPD and got nowhere." - at that point I was free.

By "free" I mean that I no longer felt I had any power or responsibility to stay engaged in a fruitless engagement.

Does that help? 

[enlighten me]

Hi EG

yes been through this with both my uBPD exs.

identical pattern as yours.

What ive worked out is the personality depends on the circumstances. With both my exs the waif was when they where unsure of their future. Beginings of relationships, might break up on them, the no mans land between their next relationship.

The queen was when they where getting lots of attention be it friends or lovers or potential lovers.

The witch normally comes out when theyre in another relationship but not happy. You become their punch bag. Theyve got everything they wanted but are not happy. They cant understand why it doesnt make them happy so get angry and upset.

Just my thoughts on what ive witnessed first hand.

[married21years]

wow you have been through it 

i see reading is helping you understand.

they try any role to get what they want

we fall in love with a chameleon

they become what ever we want to get what they want but it is all false.

and that is what is so hard to take.

they distort reality to save their feelings, and the charade that they ever cared for you at all is ruthlessly exposed as we are discarded

i feel for you but you are getting better 

[earlgrey]

As for your question: "how best to deal" - as you are on the Detaching Board, the best way to deal is to not deal. What is it you want to accomplish? If it is to minimize its effect on you, then to keep yourself as grounded as possible, would be my answer. Keep reminding yourself that this is a pattern that is going to repeat endlessly for this individual.

I like this answer - thanks VC.

Yep I am am on the detaching board - a very conscious decision - but I'm very new here and get spooked easily!

The waif spooked me. 

[VitaminC]

Yep I am am on the detaching board - a very conscious decision - but I'm very new here and get spooked easily!

The waif spooked me. 

 

The more you understand the patterns or mechanisms of someone with BPD and, very importantly, the effect they have on you and how you react to them, the less spooky it will be.

That's the way to stay grounded too. Understanding and being more alert to your own reactions and feelings and needs. Putting the focus there after having it on someone else for long time can take a conscious and repeated effort. It becomes more natural the more you do it. Practise makes better! And it's very worth it.

[woundedPhoenix]

Waif, Queen, Witch.

I have seen all, probably a forth one. Whore.

Cruel to say that but probably the Gigolo/Casanova runs in the male BPD equivalent just as much. How does this translate in a male BPD btw, what states do they have?

[enlighten me]

Waif, Queen, Witch.

I have seen all, probably a forth one. Whore.

Cruel to say that but probably the Gigolo/Casanova runs in the male BPD equivalent just as much. How does this translate in a male BPD btw, what states do they have?

I think the four types are seen in both sexs. I think its a bit more obvious in women (dont beat me up for saying this) due to hormones.

I witnessed massive fluctuations in my exs behaviour due to hormones. Not just a little more tetchy but full blown raging.

I also wonder if the four types relate to co morbidity with another dissorder. Perhaps BPD witch is co morbid with ASPD. Or BPD queen is co morbid with NPD.

[stimpy]

Yes, I've seen all four at different times.

Waif at the beginning - charming, easy going, victim (of her exes and her mother)

Queen - into the relationship - wanted to be in control, sexy, confident, sure of herself

Witch - after she dumped me - punishing, angry, manipulative, insulting

Hermit - 1 year after the dumping - completely vanished, and no contact with me or any of my friends at all, I think lost her job, and moved in with her adult daughter.

No doubt the cycle will start all over again with the next guy. I miss her, but in truth I miss the waif and part of the queen, after she dumped me she dysregulated for months, quite scary.

[woundedPhoenix]

I only miss the waif. The queen was already way to controlling and emotionally aloof for me...

[Leonis]

What ive worked out is the personality depends on the circumstances. With both my exs the waif was when they where unsure of their future. Beginings of relationships, might break up on them, the no mans land between their next relationship.

The queen was when they where getting lots of attention be it friends or lovers or potential lovers.

The witch normally comes out when theyre in another relationship but not happy. You become their punch bag. Theyve got everything they wanted but are not happy. They cant understand why it doesnt make them happy so get angry and upset.

My ex isn't with anyone right now, not that I would know anyways, and she's very bitter and insulting in all of our limited conversations. Basically, she talks about how interacting with me reminds her of why we didn't work out and how she's in the situation she is at the moment due to me. You know, the whole voiding responsibilities on her part thing.

[married21years]

the waif was my nemesis with my past i just wanted to remove her pain

[Mars22]

Yes, I've seen all four at different times.

Waif at the beginning - charming, easy going, victim (of her exes and her mother)

Queen - into the relationship - wanted to be in control, sexy, confident, sure of herself

Witch - after she dumped me - punishing, angry, manipulative, insulting

Hermit - 1 year after the dumping - completely vanished, and no contact with me.

No doubt the cycle will start all over again with the next guy. I miss her, but in truth I miss the waif and part of the queen, after she dumped me she dysregulated for months, quite scary.

Stumpy... WOW! — This is unreal. This describes exactly what happen to me. I was saving this childlike waif female. ... mostly her mother and the world! So crazy but true. I love my little waif... this is where i get stuck thinking about that poor helpless girl and thats who i get stuck missing... but then — >>> she changes so fast into the rest of them, Queen,  witch, Hermit... Its the waif i miss... thats all. Too bad she couldn't balance that sweet person with normal emotions on the other side...

[stimpy]

  Mars22

Yes, I was crazy in love with my waif ex, funny and charming and interested in me and my life.

But quite soon into the relationship, the controlling queen came out, and this caused a series of arguments and fall outs and splits. The lack of empathy also started to become evident as well. During the queen stage I also saw her develop a much more sexy, confident, self assured persona that was fun to be around. I think she was a mix of NPD and BPD and the NPD over inflated ego was beginning to get out of control. 

Then what I would call the REAL person emerged after she dumped me. I have never seen such hate and anger in someone, the only way I can describe the look of rage I saw on one occasion was that she looked like an animal, it was the most scary thing I've ever seen.

Then the waif sort of re-appeared as she tried to get me back, but by then it was too late and I refused to re-engage with her.

And finally the hermit. I'm pretty sure she lost her job and got her adult daughter to move back in with her. Her daughter has massive issues with depression and social services wanted to take away her kids, so I think my ex went back to a very small world where she could control these people around her, her daughter and her grand kids.

Very sad. All of it.

I so miss the waif and the sexy queen, but they were both illusions, not the real person, the real person is very very scary, controlling, petty and spiteful.

[woundedPhoenix]

I don't know really... .I think all 4 are somewhat part of their character.


If you look at Schema Therapy, it explains these states somewhat.

The relationship starts with a borderline living mostly in an ABANDONNED CHILD mode -> the waif essentially.

And as the relationship progresses, you cannot avoid to trigger their inner PUNITIVE PARENT, low self esteem and their inability to trust anyone.

So with these narcistic wounds being reactivated, defensive modes like DETACHED PROTECTOR and ANGRY CHILD kick in more and more.

That probably triggers the Queen into existance, finally evolving towards narcistic and totally selfish behaviour and eroding all empathy.

Devaluation is their inner PUNITIVE PARENT being flipped outwards towards you, all their selfblame and selfhate gets now projected towards you -> Witch.



So... .Who is this person really? All I can say is that i fell in love with an ABANDONNED CHILD that was expecting me to be a PERFECT PARENT with no margin for error.
 
And ofcourse i would fail in that as i was expecting that a grown woman could take care of herself once in a while.

[earlgrey]

I found the waif to be just my type too, but just a passing phase.

All the phases would seem to be in response to what is going on around them, and as a r/s develops they morf to their "natural" state.

As Stimpy said "the real person is very very scary, controlling, petty and spiteful."

This is definitely a good description, but not natural and real, but the character traits of the bordeline/narcissist.

[earlgrey]

Hi woundedPhoenix - solid post.

Explains my experience too.

[stimpy]

Great post woundedPhoenix. The wide variety of behaviours that I saw over a remarkably short time left me utterly bewildered and hurt and I can see that each of the behaviour styles that you describe were present in my ex at some point. 

I suppose the reason I say the real person was the witch, is that when I saw this side of her, she no longer needed or wanted anything from me. The gloves were off as it were and her actions towards me were straight from her gut, there was no ulterior motive, just straight hurt. Her actions came from her inner self, no modulation, no thought, just her - deep, deep, down.

At the beginning, the waif was in my opinion an act (maybe subconscious) to get what she wanted, sympathy, attention, for people to like her and also to get me.

The queen was a little closer to her real self, but still an act in my view because she was over confident, it was from an inflated ego, it wasn't really her, it was an ego state that could never last. And her behaviour set the seeds for our road to destruction. It was here that her lack of empathy, the emerging selfishness, the thoughtlessness became apparent. It was a bit closer to the real her I suppose, but not really her in my view because it was her narcissistic ego beginning to get out of control.

And yes, the hermit is maybe the real person too when I come to think of it. For her by this time the world has become way too scary again and she wasn't trying to get anything. She is bunkered down and only dealing with people under her total control.

It's an interesting question and one I think about sometimes. Who did I really go out with? I don't think I'll ever know. I've got a feeling she doesn't know who she really is either.

[VitaminC]

I found the waif to be just my type too, but just a passing phase.

That insight can teach you a lot about yourself, EarlGrey.

I liked the waif because it made me feel powerful and special, I also liked the King because that mode made me respect him. I didn't like the Warlock, because he was evil to me, and I have soft spot for the Hermit, because I think I see pain and loneliness in there.   

Why did you like the waif?

[married21years]

they are chameleons. they change to fit into their environment.

we will never know who they are, and if we did we would never be able to trust that it is the real them.

pwBPD have a serious problem when they do get help. as everyone wants to tell them what they did to hurt people.

NC protects everyone, it is not a punishment, just an acceptance of the best course of action  

[VitaminC]

And in my view, all those are equally real in that they are wholly emotional responses to external and internal pressures, confusions, and fears.

Everyone has that in them - a selfish / innocent / needy / magical child and an adult who either is self-aware or not or sometimes yes and sometimes no. The difference between nons and someone with a personality disorder is how extreme the differences are, how much we are in charge of them, how aware we are of them, and the degree to which we consider our selves responsible for them, not someone else.

[earlgrey]

I liked the Waif because... .

she is gentle, non threatening, no conflict, easy-going, so all the stuff I am NOT good at (dealing with conflict etc) is far away.

Yep that is my kind of r/s!

[earlgrey]

Ooops... .kind of interesting.

My attraction was for an absence of conflict, not for the attraction of something good that was present!

(At the time, I could never put into words the reason for my attraction to this person).

[married21years]

where does the aversion to conflict come from ? 

[woundedPhoenix]

I suppose the reason I say the real person was the witch, is that when I saw this side of her, she no longer needed or wanted anything from me. The gloves were off as it were and her actions towards me were straight from her gut, there was no ulterior motive, just straight hurt. Her actions came from her inner self, no modulation, no thought, just her - deep, deep, down.

At the beginning, the waif was in my opinion an act (maybe subconscious) to get what she wanted, sympathy, attention, for people to like her and also to get me.

the waif is their little child mirroring the good in people, so they can feel a good person too. something they tried to do as a child, but without any consistent and caring figures around to mirror good from.

Their relationships are always turning out to be some re-enactment of their childhood attachements, sometimes they seek out narcistic and sadistic partners to do that, yet when they seek out generally good partners, they will eventually project their childhood traumas around with much the same result.

[VitaminC]

My attraction was for an absence of conflict, not for the attraction of something good that was present!

Whohoo!  Isnt it great to know this now?

What next,?

[stimpy]

the waif is their little child mirroring the good in people, so they can feel a good person too. something they tried to do as a child, but without any consistent and caring figures around to mirror good from.

Their relationships are always turning out to be some re-enactment of their childhood attachements, sometimes they seek out narcistic and sadistic partners to do that, yet when they seek out generally good partners, they will eventually project their childhood traumas around with much the same result.

So this ties in with other things I've read, that they are emotionally maybe 3 or 4 years old, maybe even younger. And so like most kids of that age, there is limited empathy, limited self awareness, limited if any introspection.

For me at the moment thinking about this, it is quite upsetting. The emotional and inter-personal tools at her disposal would be so limited as to make any normal adult relationship nigh on impossible. What kind of life must that be? What if anything can make sense to her?

I think I am feeling more compassion and sadness now than at any time since she dumped me, about a year ago. I have just shed a tear or two, but those tears are not for me, they are for her.

[married21years]

So this ties in with other things I've read, that they are emotionally maybe 3 or 4 years old, maybe even younger. And so like most kids of that age, there is limited empathy, limited self awareness, limited if any introspection.

this clinched it for me i watched her console a friend that had been dumped.  i had to tell her to hug her, she was like a fish out of water. she had absolutely no empathy!