I feel so cruel (NC related)

[chillamom]

Hi, I've been struggling with NC versus LC for a while with my dBPDexbf.  I am having a very difficult time not responding to his texts and messages, and my T actually said leaving a channel of communication open was probably a good idea given the possibility he might become physical.  His messages vary from heartbreaking to abusive (e.g.m I only want to get along and be close friends at least because I have no one, to you're a useless f*****g c**t for leaving me).  It's hard because when he tugs at my heart,,which has has done in b/us before, I eventually give in and start another ride on the roller coaster.  I obviously value his feelings more than mine, because 8 years of this is enough and 95% of me wants OUT FIR GOOD.  Can anyone tell me if they have experienced stuff like this and what they did?  I don't think a friendship of any sort is possible, and I think it would be terrible for him as well.  Plus he still has a lot of stuff at my house and wants to come get it, I'm frightened to let him in because it will be a very ugly scene.  Any advice or support in how I should completely pull the plug would be welcome, because I feel so damn MEAN doing so.  He also quite literally has no friends and no support, and I still have strong feelings for him and need him out of my heart, although he is begging to be "let back in". Sorry if this is incoherent, this is just such a mess!  Thank you.

[kc sunshine]

Stay strong chillamom, we are with you! You are doing the right thing both for you and for him. Could you bundle his things at and leave them outside at the door? Or have a third (or fourth or fifth party) there when he comes over?

[fromheeltoheal]

I obviously value his feelings more than mine, because 8 years of this is enough and 95% of me wants OUT FIR GOOD.

I feel so damn MEAN doing so.

Good awareness CM.  Those of us predisposed to put other people's needs ahead of our own are good choices for borderlines, people in continual need.  So getting from 95% to 100% only takes a real decision, a real decision being a cutting off of any other possibility, and that starts with putting your needs first, vehemently so, which will feel weird since you've been putting his first for so long.  And do you get mad at him?  Anger and extreme selfishness are your friends right now, and there will be strong emotions to go along with that, but it's the way out.

Do you trust him?
Does he treat you with respect?
Does he meet you emotional needs appropriately and sustainably?
Do you enjoy his company most of the time?
Is the relationship stable and grounded?

Answers to those questions, which are likely no, can help you create the emotional state to make a real decision.  And add to it that changes like this hurt less when done quickly.

Regarding his stuff, don't be there alone, have at least one friend who knows the situation there with you, and set a definite date and time, no compromises, and a higher level would be call the police and have an officer there, which would ensure your safety, and also send a strong message of your intent.  There will be emotions involved, but if you focus on doing what's best for YOU right now, the hardest part will be at the beginning and it will get easier.

Take care of you!

[drained1996]

"Can anyone tell me if they have experienced stuff like this and what they did?  I don't think a friendship of any sort is possible, and I think it would be terrible for him as well."

Chillamom,

Yes, like you I recycled many times, and it took ME being drained of all I had to give to begin NC.  I had to go NC, because like you, I would give in when any contact was made.  The FOG is not a place to make good decisions... .and NC and time let the FOG clear.  Taking this step essentially saved my life, and helped put me on track to focus on ME.  
I would probably suggest the police in your case as you've straight out said you were afraid of violence, and as heeltoheal said, it will send a strong message of intent.  
This was one of the hardest things I've had to do in life... .but it was also the best decision I ever made.  It was the beginning of taking ME back.  It's hard and there will be pitfalls, just learn from each event and be quick to re-implement NC if/when it does get broken.  Nobody is perfect, and a goal of keeping 100% NC is probably unrealistic.  We look forward to being here for support throughout your process.  
And no... .friendship is not possible... .not from what you've shared... .nor from my own experience. 

[Larmoyant]

Hi Chillamom, I’m having a similar struggle. Can’t quite rip that band-aid off and still responding to some texts. However, I’ve set myself a rule that I won’t respond to anything remotely abusive and any response is minimal and to the point. If he contacts me in a civil, respectful way I’ll reply. His texts are getting less and less.

Like you, I don’t want to be his friend. He’d only want to be fwb anyway and probably triangulate me with other women. No chance. I can also understand you feeling mean for not talking to him. I remember times when my ex seemed vulnerable, and I feel so sorry for him, but decided to turn that compassion towards myself. Whenever I hear from him now I take a big step back and ask ‘what’s best for me here’. HH questions are great, maybe print them out and put them on the fridge. My therapist suggested I do something similar and I have a big sticker saying ‘YOU MATTER’ on mine. You matter too, very much. As HH says “Take care of you”. 

[chillamom]

Thanks, kc sunshine, I appreciate the suggestion of leaving things boxed up on the porch.  My T suggested that as well, and even though I think it will enrage him more, it's probably safer than letting him in the house, considering especially that most of his stuff is in my bedroom closet.  I've also thought of just boxing it up and leaving it on his parent's porch (still lives with the parents).  Good ideas, thank you!

[chillamom]

Hi, fromheeltoheal, I appreciate you posting the questions you did, and the answer to every one is a resounding NO.  I need to work on that last 5% to get to be 100% sure of going NC, and that's my issue.  I need to "find my anger" and stay with it, although I am so easily swayed from anger to empathy, and I don't like to deliberately put myself in an angry mood.  But one thing that I'm noticing is that I AM more angry than I have ever been before... .I think I tried to suppress it for so many years and now when the  "lid comes off", i can rant and rave as much as he does.  This is one of the main reasons why I have to get to that 100%, I don't like the person I become the I am with him.  Thank you for your help!

[chillamom]

Hi, drained1996, it sounds like you and I have had a similarly FOGgy past. I am going to try and summon some of the "extreme selfishness" that fromheeltoheal notes I should cultivate, but I hate feeling like a bad person, because that in my mind confirms all the awful things he has said about me over the years.  I am seeing that the roots of this (obviously) are in self-worth, and my T has helped me see that exdBPDex acts precisely like my father acted when I was a little girl, so none of this is a surprise.  I just have to stop thinking and rip off the proverbial band-aid, which I seem to be congenitally unable to do yet... .I'll get there I HOPE.

[hurting300]

Did you express too him you wanted no more contact? Or did you just one day start it? And honestly just imagine if you were being ignored, you don't have too be a pwBPD too feel hurt. I think you should respond and tell him too move on.

[chillamom]

Hi, Larmoyant, I've been following your tale on here and my heart goes out to you too... .I think both of us left someone we loved because it HAD to be done, and even though we were the ones to sever the relationship, it sometimes feels that we were "left" because our hearts are still with them to an extent.  Thank you for your comments, and yes, absolutely, my ex's idea of friends is indeed FWB, which I refuse to lower myself to (although I am ashamed to admit that sometimes it sounds like "something" is better than "nothing".  What's kind of helping me is to think of the fact that this back and forth situation would not help HIM either - if I can couch things in terms of not hurting HIM I seem to be more open to the idea than if I focus on not hurting ME.  I've always been the kind of person who would rather hurt myself than hurt anybody else.

 I have to get that moment in my head (someone referred to it as the BAM moment) that reminds me of what he's "really" like.  One of my BAM moments is remembering how one night a few years ago I actually DARED to go out for a drink after work with some female friends.  I literally had no sooner sat down to order a (rare for me) glass of wine when I received a call from the exbf saying he had been "messing around" with my daughter's chinchilla and now he was bleeding.  Long story short, I left the restaurant immediately, and came home to a poor bloody little fuzzball that had to be rushed to an emergency exotic veterinarian in order to amputate what was left of his tail.  The little guy didn't heal properly, and for almost 6 months required weekly vet visits and special antibiotics and ointments.  Ex didn't pay a PENNY towards the chili's vet bills, and insists it was an accident.  I personally think it was too much of a coincidence that I had actually broken free for an evening, and that's when said accident occurred.  Now I have a chilla with a very stumpy little tail (why my name is chillamom, )... .point being, I dared go against his wishes and saw friends and he found a way to punish me.  AND he always hated the chilla... .called him a f******g rat and actually GOT JEALOUS when I played with the little guy and called him "my boy".  

Thanks for listening, and I "hear you" on the feelings.  How is your grad process coming along, BTW?

[chillamom]

Hi, hurting300, I did indeed tell him over the phone and also in a lengthy letter about the need to go NC and how that would ultimately benefit us both.  I do intend to speak with him about it again, and reiterate what I have said.  You have hit the nail on the head here... .I wouldn't want to hurt ANYONE by ignoring them, particularly a person I was so close to for so long, but when I do speak with him the verbal abuse is typically quite extreme and he will not listen to reason.  I think I have to give up on trying to convince him that NC is needed for both of us and just do it, but you are right, it is something I wouldn't want to do to anyone. I would hate it being done to me.  It's a dilemma for sure.  I have told him repeatedly that moving on is his best interest and I wish him well, but so far disengaging is not in his repertoire.  Thanks for your comments!

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey CM-

I need to work on that last 5% to get to be 100% sure of going NC, and that's my issue.  I need to "find my anger" and stay with it, although I am so easily swayed from anger to empathy, and I don't like to deliberately put myself in an angry mood.  But one thing that I'm noticing is that I AM more angry than I have ever been before... .I think I tried to suppress it for so many years and now when the  "lid comes off", i can rant and rave as much as he does.  This is one of the main reasons why I have to get to that 100%, I don't like the person I become the I am with him.  Thank you for your help!

And to clarify, you don't need to get mad at him especially, try getting mad at yourself for putting up with what you have for so long.  How does that feel?  At some point you'll say ENOUGH, and that will take you to 100%; there's no "working on" it, there's fully associating to what putting up with that behavior has cost you, and continues to, making a decision NO, this stops here, and then acting on it.  It's simple, but it's not easy, and when would now be a good time to go there?

[chillamom]

hi, fromheeltoheal, I AM very angry at myself, and the list of things this has cost me is quite extensive.  But I'm currently looking at texts telling me how depressed he is, how lonely he is, please please please be my friend, and I'm finding it really hard to be the "manipulative b***h" he always claims I am.  He just acts so pathetic... .and I know he's had a rough time and I'm just making it rougher.   I don't want to be cruel and heartless, but it seems it's what I have to be in order to get myself to a place in life where I can breathe.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey chillamom

I'm finding it really hard to be the "manipulative b***h" he always claims I am.  He just acts so pathetic... .and I know he's had a rough time and I'm just making it rougher.   I don't want to be cruel and heartless, but it seems it's what I have to be in order to get myself to a place in life where I can breathe.

So a few things:

Acting in your best interest openly and honestly is not manipulative, even if it's contrary to his interests.
Are you making it rougher, or is that a distortion caused by him blaming you for things he doesn't want to feel or take responsibility for?
You've got a belief that says acting in your own best interest is being cruel and heartless.  Is that true?  Where did that belief come from, apart from him?  Selfishness gets a bad rap, but really, if we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give, yes?

[drained1996]

Chillamom,

I see exactly who the manipulative one is on your merry go round... .
They know our weak spots and engage them anytime they feel the need in order to get the response they desire. 
I feel your pain as I was subjected to years of fear, obligation, guilt, and seduction.  It caused many many recycles because like you, I couldn't see my hand in front of my face in the FOG.  My cognitive thinking when it came to her was shot... .and she knew I wouldn't be cruel... .it's not in my nature. 
Protecting myself wasn't cruel, what I was subjected to all that time... .now that was cruel and unusual punishment. 

[hurting300]

Hi, hurting300, I did indeed tell him over the phone and also in a lengthy letter about the need to go NC and how that would ultimately benefit us both.  I do intend to speak with him about it again, and reiterate what I have said.  You have hit the nail on the head here... .I wouldn't want to hurt ANYONE by ignoring them, particularly a person I was so close to for so long, but when I do speak with him the verbal abuse is typically quite extreme and he will not listen to reason.  I think I have to give up on trying to convince him that NC is needed for both of us and just do it, but you are right, it is something I wouldn't want to do to anyone. I would hate it being done to me.  It's a dilemma for sure.  I have told him repeatedly that moving on is his best interest and I wish him well, but so far disengaging is not in his repertoire.  Thanks for your comments!

Why feel bad? You did the ADULT thing. You was honest. I wish my ex would have been as open as you.

[Larmoyant]

Hi chillamom,

Thank you for your comments, and yes, absolutely, my ex's idea of friends is indeed FWB, which I refuse to lower myself to (although I am ashamed to admit that sometimes it sounds like "something" is better than "nothing".

.  

Lol. I miss the physical intimacy too (a lot!), but I take great pride in not allowing him to downgrade me from fiancé to FWB.

.I have to get that moment in my head (someone referred to it as the BAM moment) that reminds me of what he's "really" like.

.

I think it’s a great idea remembering the ‘BAM’ moments (thanks Gotbushels & Goingback20C). Some of my memories are really quite shocking especially now I’ve had space and time to reflect. Your experience sounds horrific and I’m so sorry you went through that and your poor beloved chinchilla. I can’t bear cruelty to animals. Keep that memory alive, it might help you detach.

Thanks for asking about my PhD plans, in fact that was a much needed nudge this morning . I'm still working on my proposal, but it's taking shape. It's been difficult getting going, but I'm beginning to trust the peace I've created in my new place and with it my mind is clearing. I'm calmer and beginning to write again. Wow, never thought I'd say that again!

[Larmoyant]

But I'm currently looking at texts telling me how depressed he is, how lonely he is, please please please be my friend, and I'm finding it really hard to be the "manipulative b***h" he always claims I am.  He just acts so pathetic... .and I know he's had a rough time and I'm just making it rougher.   I don't want to be cruel and heartless, but it seems it's what I have to be in order to get myself to a place in life where I can breathe.

Hi Chillamom,  it might help to look at his texts as ‘manipulation’. He’s trying to guilt you into being his friend, keeping his attachment. It’s another tool in his kit bag just like the abusive texts he hurls at you. Maybe it’s time he needs to take responsibility for having a rough time. You (we) are not responsible for their troubles. What is it I read on here? Something about us not being able to control it, cure it, or causing it (BPD that is). You’re not responsible. And you’re not being cruel and heartless. You are taking care of yourself and that's not selfish. He’s the one who makes the choice to send you abusive texts and then expects you to be friends with him. Time to show him it doesn’t work like that (I’m getting stronger  ). I know it’s much easier said then done. I’ve got to stick by these words now!

[Leonis]

He also quite literally has no friends and no support, and I still have strong feelings for him and need him out of my heart, although he is begging to be "let back in".

He brought it upon himself. I stopped having sympathy for my ex when she told me horrible things about how I never really loved her, etc.

You may still have strong feelings for him, but it will soon replaced by burning disdain during your recovery.

[GoingBack2OC]

As you mentioned you wavered from LC to NC, did you have a final conversation with him? Where you basically closed it, explained you were going NC, its over, etc?

I only ask, because my ex literally ghosted me, we were talking, I found out she had been cheating, not from her, but from him actually- and I never heard from her again.

I'd only say it's been crushing.

That said, if he keeps reaching out, was it not made clear it's over? He still has things of his he needs back... .having those items, is a reason for him to contact you.

Just some thoughts, but maybe a conversation, if only on the phone, where you explain no more calls, texts, etc, and make arrangements to get him his things, might be a good idea?

[chillamom]

Hi, Larmoyant,
Thank you for your comments - I am indeed trying to look at this as manipulation at some level.  I don't doubt that he is indeed very sad, and I don't blame him for trying as sympathy has worked all 9,652 other times ( slight exaggeration) that he deployed these weapons upon me. I have to remain resolute, because I know in the long run this will somehow be best for him and unequivocally best for me to go NC, but yes, I miss him.  Maybe I was addicted to the drama at some level too - it's interesting that a lot of material about my NPD father keeps coming up in therapy and I'm somewhat amazed at the parallels between my exdBPD guy and my dad (who at 96 is every bit the NPD he was when I was growing up!)  I hope that you can get to that proposal a bit and not let the events of your morning affect you too deeply (although it's understandable that they would... .).  Getting that PhD proposal done is massive, I remember, and even if you can get 5 pages out a day, it is going to feel fabulous and you will feel that sense of accomplishment that will make the ex less of a moment-to-moment factor in your life!

[chillamom]

Hi, Goingback20C, I have indeed had a final conversation with him, but it has turned into final conversations[[/i] because he doesn't take no for an answer.  And that's probably my fault, because I keep responding to him because it just feels so awful not to.  So I have to take responsibility for that and let the next conversation be the last one.  I am going to keep my email account open to him so that he can communicate with me there about arranging to get his things back.  He is going to push to get them back this week, but because of my schedule it's going to have to wait until next (not that he needs the stuff anyway, it's been in my closet for about 5 years, ).  Another conversation, as you suggested, will indeed take place, but I don't expect that will stop him from using any avenue possible to continue to contact me for quite some time.  I'm expecting a few carrier pigeons to arrive if all other methods are blocked!

[chillamom]

Hi, Leonis,

Lord, I look forward to feeling some of the "burning disdain" you mention, or ultimately, just a sense of bland indifference!  No matter what awful things he says to me, and there are MANY, I seem to focus on the fact that HE'S sad, HE'S lonely, HE'S bored and hungry.  I have noticed that there's NEVER any attention to my feelings, and indeed there never really was, so I have to keep that in mind to eventually reach that stage of indifference... .right now I'm vacillating between wistfully sad and flat out ANGRY. 

[pjstock42]

Chillamom,

I've think about the same thing every day in regards to disdain or indifference. Everything I've read and everyone that I've talked to about this has said that true anger is a part of this healing process yet I have only had small glimpses of it. Part of the reason for this may be that I'm just not an angry person and never have been, so it's not a normal emotion for me. I also told myself very early on into this process that I don't want to carry around a hatred in my soul for this person. Basically, if I were to just vehemently disdain this person and carry that with me, I would be replacing the love I had for her that dominated my life with hate for her that would also dominate my life. I don't want her to have any free rent in my head and I am very very slowly going through the eviction process and reclaiming my own sanity. True indifference is my goal, I would love nothing more than to walk down the street, see her and then look away and keep walking as though nothing had happened. I know that will take time but that to me is what will freedom from this will feel like.

Your feelings are normal because people like us are caring / empathetic individuals and unfortunately that causes us to feel pain when things like this happen. Think of this in a different way, would you rather be able to move past this instantaneously and just be totally callous/cold to the whole situation? I know that the idea sounds tempting sometimes but at the end of the day, you're having these feelings of empathy/care/love because you're a good person and even though it hurts now, those traits that you have that make you a good person are a gift not a curse and they will stay with you & prove their benefit once you have healed from this.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey CM-

Lord, I look forward to feeling some of the "burning disdain" you mention, or ultimately, just a sense of bland indifference!  No matter what awful things he says to me, and there are MANY, I seem to focus on the fact that HE'S sad, HE'S lonely, HE'S bored and hungry.  I have noticed that there's NEVER any attention to my feelings, and indeed there never really was, so I have to keep that in mind to eventually reach that stage of indifference... .right now I'm vacillating between wistfully sad and flat out ANGRY.  

Good!  Angry good.

You can wait for that stage of indifference, or you can actively create it; sometimes the best way to fight something is don't fight it, create something new.  If you consciously shift the focus from him to you and from the past to the future, he will fade into indifference, not that you will forget, and you get to keep the lessons, it just won't matter because you're too busy living a life of your own creation, a life worth living.  A way to get there is to develop a vision for the future, the life of your dreams, and make it big and bright and compelling so it pulls you towards it, and then take one step in that direction.  And then another.  And you'll be going on faith initially, but after a while you'll notice progress, which builds momentum, and using the vision as a guide, not the goal, since it's the journey not the destination and life is right now, you'll look back one day and be amazed at how far you've come, one, and two, how distant your relationship with him seems and how the memory has no impact on your current emotional state.  And then you will be free.

Detachment is a project, the best kind, it's your life, and if you treat it as such you can hasten it's progress.  And of course part of that is removing his input, which doesn't help, at all, and you're well on your way to eliminating that, and another part is grieving and processing the relationship, which you can do while focusing on your future so you have direction if and when the emotions get strong.  And then, once you get some time and distance, you can start to look at why you put his needs ahead of your own, where that impulse came from, what it's cost you, and how you can resolve it now, along with looking at the addiction to drama, where that impulse comes from; digging there and using the pain of grieving the relationship as motivation can provide profound growth, which you may eventually consider the gift of the relationship.

Take care of you!