Another Phone Call

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

It was at first to talk business about the kids.  Not to sound cold,  but my internal boundary is to treat this like a business relationship,  the business of raising the kids. We're also in counseling,  the kids,  too, for other reasons,  so I see her at least once a week. 

The guy she left me for 3 years ago, though she officially moved out 2.5 years ago and married and co-habitated with him a little over a year ago,  is closer in age to our 6 year old son than I am to the guy.  The age spread is 10-10-10. 26 to 36 isn't as much of a spread as 31 and 21, especially considering he was still an undergrad at the time.  She used to take our kids to visit him on campus.  Embarrassing,  IMO.

She started crying.  I stepped back and put on my Turkish hat.  I asked if she was OK.  She got it together.  Told me she felt overwhelmed.  That she was the primary breadwinner in their house. I guess his jobs don't bring in much,  despite him having a 4 year degree,  unlike us. I make more than them combined by a long shot and she may be regretting leaving financial security.  I know that this factor isn't the end all be all in a r/s, but it's not insignificant unless you both are teenagers. 

The kids ask her why they are in a 1 bedroom apartment now.  We live in one of the most expensive areas in the USA. Their rent is more than my mortgage,  property taxes,  insurance and mortgage insurance  (which I can thankfully stop paying soon). She feels guilty about not providing for the kids.  S6 told me dealer this year that mommy was going to get them a two story home with a pool.  That's at least $700k to start in our area. No way.  Reminds me of all the promises my BPD mother used to make to me about living on a farm,  but when I was 12, it turned out to be a 2000 sf uninsulated barn shell, no electricity,  plumbing (or even an outhouse,  so we were like bears), a mile hike down the canyon to haul unfiltered water in gallon jugs, living with 50 dogs (along with goats,  and chickens) in a hoard and animal filth, eating cold food out of cans,  being a lumberjack's apprentice feeling trees and chopping wood by hand (maul)... .no tv, no Atari. Lots of poison oak.  That sucked.

My point is that the kids have it far better than we ever had.  She came her a child,  then an unorthodox papered immigrant,  but ended up legal.  Initially living in a studio with both parents and multiple siblings,  her parents bought a house by the time she was in high school.  Our kids aren't hurting in the least,  but she's projecting.  I told her that when S6 told me he wanted a new house,  that we were here for the next 14 years,  that houses cost way more than he could fathom,  and that he was free to move out at that time.  He didn't ask me again,  I passed this onto her.  Don't let the kids guilt you. 

She mentioned about a month ago when I said something about karma catching up to her. I don't remember saying exactly that,  but I didn't argue or disbelieve her.  I said so.  I also said that I may have been rude (rescuer mode!), and she said that she senses that I'm still angry about how everything went down.  Rescuer mode again,  I told her that while that was true,  I needed to move on from it as well.  We have the business of raising the kids.  I did get one mean jab in,  perhaps,  when I said that if we didn't have kids,  we wouldn't even be talking.  She didn't respond to that.  I had also said that there were so many things I had wanted to say when she was still living here (things suggested by my T), but that I didn't think them helpful.  I just wanted her out of the house with minimal drama and conflict.  I told her that. 

I heard her H get home. I let her go.  It was almost an hour conversation.  I suppose I am past desiring for everyone seeing what I see,  what I've always known.  She will keep the facade of function because otherwise would be to admit to the world (family and IMO dysfunctions enabling friends) that all isn't well,  not by a long shot.  It hasn't been for a year. 

I can detach,  or not,  or something in-between. It's our kids which most worry me.  D4 who is suddenly this year very attached to her mom, and what my Ex shared with me last week about how she's been answering our son's questions about how she and their step dad met (she's been doing it wrongly). I suppose I'm just going to take it one day at a time. 

[Turkish]

It was at first to talk business about the kids.  Not to sound cold,  but my internal boundary is to treat this like a business relationship,  the business of raising the kids. We're also in counseling,  the kids,  too, for other reasons,  so I see her at least once a week. 

The guy she left me for 3 years ago, though she officially moved out 2.5 years ago and married and co-habitated with him a little over a year ago,  is closer in age to our 6 year old son than I am to the guy.  The age spread is 10-10-10. 26 to 36 isn't as much of a spread as 31 and 21, especially considering he was still an undergrad at the time.  She used to take our kids to visit him on campus.  Embarrassing,  IMO.

She started crying.  I stepped back and put on my Turkish hat.  I asked if she was OK.  She got it together.  Told me she felt overwhelmed.  That she was the primary breadwinner in their house. I guess his jobs don't bring in much,  despite him having a 4 year degree,  unlike us. I make more than them combined by a long shot and she may be regretting leaving financial security.  I know that this factor isn't the end all be all in a r/s, but it's not insignificant unless you both are teenagers. 

The kids ask her why they are in a 1 bedroom apartment now.  We live in one of the most expensive areas in the USA. Their rent is more than my mortgage,  property taxes,  insurance and mortgage insurance  (which I can thankfully stop paying soon). She feels guilty about not providing for the kids.  S6 told me dealer this year that mommy was going to get them a two story home with a pool.  That's at least $700k to start in our area. No way.  Reminds me of all the promises my BPD mother used to make to me about living on a farm,  but when I was 12, it turned out to be a 2000 sf uninsulated barn shell, no electricity,  plumbing (or even an outhouse,  so we were like bears), a mile hike down the canyon to haul unfiltered water in gallon jugs, living with 50 dogs (along with goats,  and chickens) in a hoard and animal filth, eating cold food out of cans,  being a lumberjack's apprentice feeling trees and chopping wood by hand (maul)... .no tv, no Atari. Lots of poison oak.  That sucked.

My point is that the kids have it far better than we ever had.  She came her a child,  then an unorthodox papered immigrant,  but ended up legal.  Initially living in a studio with both parents and multiple siblings,  her parents bought a house by the time she was in high school.  Our kids aren't hurting in the least,  but she's projecting.  I told her that when S6 told me he wanted a new house,  that we were here for the next 14 years,  that houses cost way more than he could fathom,  and that he was free to move out at that time.  He didn't ask me again,  I passed this onto her.  Don't let the kids guilt you. 

She mentioned about a month ago when I said something about karma catching up to her. I don't remember saying exactly that,  but I didn't argue or disbelieve her.  I said so.  I also said that I may have been rude (rescuer mode!), and she said that she senses that I'm still angry about how everything went down.  Rescuer mode again,  I told her that while that was true,  I needed to move on from it as well.  We have the business of raising the kids.  I did get one mean jab in,  perhaps,  when I said that if we didn't have kids,  we wouldn't even be talking.  She didn't respond to that.  I had also said that there were so many things I had wanted to say when she was still living here (things suggested by my T), but that I didn't think them helpful.  I just wanted her out of the house with minimal drama and conflict.  I told her that. 

I heard her H get home. I let her go.  It was almost an hour conversation.  I suppose I am past desiring for everyone seeing what I see,  what I've always known.  She will keep the facade of function because otherwise would be to admit to the world (family and IMO dysfunctions enabling friends) that all isn't well,  not by a long shot.  It hasn't been for a year. 

I can detach,  or not,  or something in-between. It's our kids which most worry me.  D4 who is suddenly this year very attached to her mom, and what my Ex shared with me last week about how she's been answering our son's questions about how she and their step dad met (she's been doing it wrongly). I suppose I'm just going to take it one day at a time. 

[Leonis]

A personal question for you, Turkish:

How do you think your children will turn out with a clueless guy and semi-functional mother based on your current observation?

[heartandwhole]

Turkish I think you are handling this with grace. Especially considering the fact that you have two lovely children with your ex, and she seems to need your brand of comfort. Not easy to handle, taking your own feelings into account, and having to be reminded--weekly-- of what happened between you.

It does seem like all is not as well at it seems in the new-ish relationship. A bump in the road, like most relationships go through? Or maybe a sad testament to decisions made in the throes of a disorder? I guess time will tell, and I very much understand your main concern being the kids.

It's so hard to standby and watch things happen that we don't agree with. What feelings are coming up for you around this, Turkish? Are they being addressed in the family therapy?

heartandwhole

[Turkish]

A personal question for you, Turkish:

How do you think your children will turn out with a clueless guy and semi-functional mother based on your current observation?

My boss,  whose known me for 24 years (since I was a kid,  basically) said that I was the best chance that the kids had of turning out normal.  I told him about the phone call,  and he said I was too nice.  :)o did a coworker who divorced a likely pwBPD 15 years ago, but then he said that I was doing it for the children.  I also explained that by listening sometimes,  my ex volunteers information.  He said he had more choice words on what he would have dune with his Exw, but she was worse: DV, driving them into bankruptcy.  Then he said,  "well, this is who you are." Then he said that my ex at least has some self-awareness,  unlike his,  who is angry and blames him to this day.  Their son just entered college,  so he has to maintain some contact.

I'm thinking back to what my T said when my ex expressed regret back in October,  "if I knew then what I know now,  I never would have left you.  I would have tried harder. " He said,  "that is a highly narcissistic statement to make. No comment a about how she hurt and betrayed you.  No comment about how she hurt the kids." To be fair,  she's indicated before that she knows she hurt me,  though when when she was still living with me. It was, however,  in terms of "maybe it had to happen" "it happened" "I wish things could have been different" and the classic,  "we had a good six year run, " with an uncomfortable laugh on her part,  and me stupidly hugging her.  

This feels similar. She's only expressing regret because it's hurting her,  similar to 2.5 years ago when she reached out to me,  trying to understand why our son was so angry with her.  Only when she was in pain an art a loss did she reach out for answers.  

    'n whole,  it was on my side in therapy.  I made the comment last week about spending so much money on it,  and she replied,  "you're not the only one." I'm positive hers was centered around herself.  Mine was at first, but then months of advice about the kids.  Mine was $165, then $185/hr. Hers was a $20 copay per session.  I didn't say this.  JADEing, and why would I try to elicit validation anyway?  

We have the kids in therapy.  D4 for the past sexual abuse (it wasn't severe,  and she's doing well), and S6 for various behavioral issues,  including evaluating him for ASD, which I think is ludicrous.  The elephant in the room is everything else which isn't thus far addressed.  If look bad for bringing things up.  It may get to this point though. 

I know people here struggle with,  "if I only could have been better? " I did.  It still crosses my mind on occasion.  Yet every time I've seen them together in the past year,  I sense her anger,  coldness, and disrespect towards her H. No matter how much I think he deserves it,  no one does.  Who tells their SO or spouse,  "I don't know what I was thinking when I got together with you! " it reminds me of my BPD mother telling me more than once, "sometimes I wish I'd never adopted you!" My ex would bismirch my manhood on occasion,  but she never told me something like that. More power to him if he endures.

[ScotisGone74]

Besides therapy Turk what are you and the kids doing together to keep it as normal as possible between you and them?  Do you all go to the park, church, or have some routine favorite restaurant you all visit together?   It is a really neat relationship that you have with your boss that he knows what you are dealing with and you the same with him.  It's been a few years now since your divorce , have you been out with any ladies that are worthy of your time?  I m glad to hear you are doing ok brother

[Turkish]

Thanks ScotisGone,

Since it's TFCBT for D4 and behavioral therapy with S6 and the ASD evaluation in progress (and his sister, too... .we're all also taking parenting classes concurrently while the kids are in their rooms), I see a lot of my Ex. The good thing about D4 is that at the end summary of the first class, there were no behaviors that needed to be addressed socially, while the other 4 boys in the class did have some. I think it may be us.

For me and the kids, we do all of the above that you listed. We have specific parks, a noodle soup place that we go to almost  twice a month on weekends (they've known us since S6 was a baby). I've tried to engage in more family activities with the church family groups. Seems like I may be the only single single parent. I see some ladies with whom I never see a husband or father, but they wear rings. The younger single ladies are very much younger than me, 10-15 years. Middle aged, I'm over the hill. So no, no ladies. Not sure if I want to get back into the volunteering thing, since that's how I met my Ex.

Honestly, I'm not sure I have time. No kids until Monday evening, the first day of school for them. Lots to clean and organize in the house this weekend. It might be good to come into work as well (sometimes it's nice when it's quiet). For the first two years, I'd get very depressed when out with the kids, being angry and sad that things we did we were supposed to be doing as a family with their mom. What I don't miss is the anxiety I developed being around her. Maybe it was me, not sure how to break that down, or even if it is possible.

For example, this week we met at school for S6's orientation. I had the kids, she met us there. S6 had been a little sick. She touched his neck and said, " did you check his temperature, it feels like he has a fever!" I touched his cheek and said no, and pointed out that while it wasn't hot, we had been standing in line in the sun for the past 20 mins. I checked him an hour later when we got home and he was 98.8F. I didn't text her. I've been detaching from feeling responsible for her anxieties.

This next part might be a bit immature. I had mopped the floors and we were waiting for them to dry before we went to the orientation. I hadn't yet dumped the bucket, and D4 grabbed the mop and was swishing it over the tile. I took a picture, making sure to show S6 watching tv, and also a part of my leg relaxing. I showed this to my Ex and said something like, "S6 and I had a hard day being men, so we had D4 do chores." My Ex instantly started into a quasi-feminist lecture to D4 with an indignant tone, saying how as a girl that she wasn't to do stuff like that while men sat around, etc... ." Yes, she was serious. Every woman I showed those pics to thought it was cute and one said, "it was obvious that D4 wanted to do that." They all thought it was funny, too.

I know my Ex was parentified, and was also a caretaker for her four younger siblings. but those are her issues. It's also as if she doesn't know me after all of this time. I felt like I could hardly lighten up around her, and our kids are very silly (sometimes a little too much). That's one thing I focus on when I'm with them, that we can be ourselves.

[ScotisGone74]

It is good to hear you are out with your kids doing things you want with them as their dad.  Alot of things can change, go up and down, but your kids will Always know that you were there for them.  You stated earlier that she is soo  cold and nasty to her now husband... .my question is why should you care now?  It is what the both of them signed up for.   I realize you are involved with contact with her for the kids, but at some point you have to ponder your own future in moving on relationship wise, I'm not saying go run out and get married or anything but having some female companionship for a nice dinner or going out for a movie night with just a friend would probably help you maybe decompress, relax, pump up the old self esteem a little bit maybe?  All I'm saying is at some point you have to let people, in this case your ex wife, be Who They Chose to Be , and I know that hurts.       

[Turkish]

I guess I'm also ambivalent about bringing someone else into the drama,  which isn't bad considering a lot of the stories here.  This is despite the awesome step moms I see on the CP board. 

I was starting to clear the third room this afternoon.  I want to move D4 into there by the beginning of next year.  She still Co sleeps with either get brother or me (at around 3am, I feel this little heater against my back). I found a bag of their mom's stuff in the corner of the closet. I separated the checks,  account info,  and student loan apps to take to work to shred.  I found some waifish love letters from a boyfriend she broke up with.

This stuff was from 13 to 15 years ago or more.  Maybe it was the one boyfriend she broke up with who she said was really great,  it scared her,  and she never knew why she broke up with him.  It went into the recycle bin.  She left over 2.5 years ago,  and left a whole lot of stuff in my house (to flee to her new and improved life I imagine). I kept some of her high school pics I'd never seen.  I'll file them away and show them to the kids much later.  I felt a little angry at first,  but not sad,  and then neutral.  My feelings have no bearing on changing anything except me. 

[ScotisGone74]

Everyone moves at their own pace and I can understand not wanting to complicate the relationship with your kids by bringing in someone else.   On the flipide of my earlier post I've seen several guys with my own eyes who just got shockingly divorced scramble to replace their former exBPD or at least Bpd like former spouses, and guess what they find amid that scramble, you got it, another BPD and geeze before you know it it's divorce number 2.   So yeah man move at your own pace and just keep doing everything to make your kids safe and happy and yourself well.   Everything will eventually work out one way or another. 

[Turkish]

She invited me to go to the beach with her and the kids (and her sister and her son) yesterday. I politely declined. Moving on... .