Progress

[Meili]

I completely agree LR!

Finding your own self-worth is critical if the non is going to maintain any sort of relationship with a pwBPD. If you don't, then you will continue to be abused.

Once the non has found his/her self-worth, the non can start to establish and maintain healthy boundaries and stop the continued abuse.

To get to that point, the non stop looking at the relationship with any sense of delusion and see things as they really are. Having a disorder is not a "get out of jail free card." These are adults that we are talking about and they must be held accountable for their actions. Even a three year old gets held accountable for whatever he/she does.

Once the non stops taking it personally and stops believing the accusations and criticisms of the pwBPD, the non can then start to rebuild his/her self-worth and not allow the verbal and emotional abuse to impact and control his/her life.

All of this starts with self-care. As a non, we all need to look at ourselves without the filters also. We must see who we truly are and why we have allowed ourselves to be treated as we have. Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

But, you're also correct, if the pwBPD is not also willing to work to improve the relationship it's doomed. The non can start the process of rebuilding by his/herself, but eventually, the pwBPD is going to have to work also.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[icky]

. Oh, there's no argument that many of the stories are the same, or at least very similar. But, not every pwBPD will cheat, become violent, etc. Yes, some do, but not all. In fact, it only takes five of the nine criteria to diagnose someone as a pwBPD. If the other four are not present, then it is just as unlikely that the pwBPD will do those things as it is any other person as far as I know. I've never seen any study that supports the idea that a pwBPD is more likely to develop the traits that are not present than any other person. It should be noted that I'm in no way looking at any of this through rose-colored glasses. I've radically accepted my situation and all that comes with it.

. yup, i agree with this very much. . i think there's one exception to this:. if someone has gone through major abuse from a BPD partner, they need to exaggerate the bad traits of the abusive person, in their mind, to help them finally walk away from the abuse and to be strong in knowing that they didn't deserve to be abused. so i think as a stage in recovering from abuse, sometimes you need to focus on how horrible the abuser is, and that means you end up exaggerating. while you're recovering from abuse, you're not very objective/ neutral/ fair in your descriptions. . so i think if some people here are still recovering from abuse, it's kinda valid for them to talk about the BPD abuser that way ("all BPD ppl are horrible". even if those comments are not very useful comments for a general, calm, informed, insightful, healing discussion about BPD. . so i think both points of view are valid/ useful, at different stages of the recovery process of having been exposed to abusive BPD behaviour.

[Lilyroze]

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Once the non has found his/her self-worth, the non can start to establish and maintain healthy boundaries and stop the continued abuse.

.

Once the non stops taking it personally and stops believing the accusations and criticisms of the pwBPD, the non can then start to rebuild his/her self-worth and not allow the verbal and emotional abuse to impact and control his/her life.

All of this starts with self-care. As a non, we all need to look at ourselves without the filters also. We must see who we truly are and why we have allowed ourselves to be treated as we have. Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

But, you're also correct, if the pwBPD is not also willing to work to improve the relationship it's doomed. The non can start the process of rebuilding by his/herself, but eventually, the pwBPD is going to have to work also.

Thank you Dear Meili, ( wise sweet one). That was the key for me and many I know. Always appreciated your thoughts and help. Spiritually your soul is beautiful friend.

[Meili]

I'm not saying that the bad traits actually expressed by a pwBPD should ever be downplayed or excused in any way.

I would even argue that even those of us who work to save and improve our relationships with pwBPD need to fully recognize and understand (even exaggerate sometimes) the actions of their pwBPD in their own minds. If you try to ignore the traits and the actions that result from them, you will also ignore healthy boundaries that must be in place to sustain a relationship that won't drain the non to the point of being an empty shell of a person.

[icky]

: ). sorry, i may have muddled things further, while trying to help make them less muddled . i guess what i meant was that if northface is focussing heavily on the negative traits of BPD, that might be an important part of his healing journey right now, to recover from abusive BPD behaviour. (didn't mean to suggest you were downplaying/ excusing anything, meili)

[Meili]

Gotcha. And, yes, it may be necessary for northface, and everyone else for that matter, to do that. I think that it is helpful to look at what the pwBPD did; but, it's far more helpful to look at what the non did and the non's role in all of it. The pwBPD isn't solely to blame for the relationship and the state of it. It took both parties to get it where it's at.

Looking at, and even exaggerating, the traits and behaviors of a pwBPD is essential for the non to understand why the non accepted the abuse and behaviors. That is why looking at it is important in the healing process. Otherwise, it really doesn't do much good to dwell on what the pwBPD did.

That being said, we all dwell on it in the beginning, that's natural. But, if we allow ourselves to get stuck there, that's not good.

[icky]

yup : ) totally agree. as a phase it's very healthy. getting stuck in it would be totally counter-productive

[Kelli Cornett]

Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

Certainly the non can help minimize some of the craziness in a BPD r/s by not escalating/reacting to the behaviors of their pwBPD and practicing validation and such, but "saving" a BPD r/s without having the pwBPD in T learning specific behavior therapies to deal with their actions (and hopefully working through their core issue(s) is usually just a delusion of the non that the next recycle is going to 'take'.
I'd love to put this to the test and start a thread with a poll, and see how many non's have managed to 'save' their r/s once it's broken down due to the behaviors, actions, and dysregulation of their pwBPD. Untreated, BPD dysregulation is cyclical and the cycles tend to become more rapid, drastic, and hurtful as the r/s goes on, so 'saving' a BPD r/s (without the pwBPD in treatment) generally means getting on board for another cycle of the same.

It's like saying you're going to 'save' your r/s with your raging alcoholic partner, even though the partner won't stop drinking. They may drink a little less and you'll convince yourself that it's 'under control' and you're practicing techniques that minimize the impact of their drinking on your life , but their destructive cycle with alcohol will always return and you'll be in the middle of the craziness.

[Meili]

Maybe I need to clarify something?

The non is the one who can start to save the relationship. It only takes one to end the cycle. Since the pwBPD is not going to end the cycle, the non must be the one to do it.

Once the cycle of abuse and conflict has been ended, then it may be possible to help the pwBPD to learn to do things differently; much like you'd teach a child.

Will this fix the relationship and make it into a healthy, safe, and stable one? Probably not. That will take the pwBPD getting into and doing therapy.

We are not talking about fixing the relationship here though, we are talking about saving it so that an attempt to improve the relationship can be made. If you can't save it, you certainly can't improve it.

[Kelli Cornett]

I guess my question is, if the pwBPD isn't in T dealing specifically with their BPD issues, what r/s are you really saving?

If there are children involved I totally understand factoring that into the equation, but if it's just two people cycling through a typical BPD r/s with all the destructive behaviors that pwBPD will always bring with them to their intimate r/s, other than the non holding on for dear life, what are you really saving?

[icky]

speaking of having a balanced, calm, useful take on BPD... i have started a thread called "Good qualities of a BPD person? Separating the truly good from the fake good" in the "deciding/ conflicted relationship" part of the board. i'd love your input, meili. i think it's quite a tricky question. and possibly an important one, considering how addictive the good (or the supposedly good) traits of a BPD person can be for us nons

[Meili]

I guess my question is, if the pwBPD isn't in T dealing specifically with their BPD issues, what r/s are you really saving?

If there are children involved I totally understand factoring that into the equation, but if it's just two people cycling through a typical BPD r/s with all the destructive behaviors that pwBPD will always bring with them to their intimate r/s, other than the non holding on for dear life, what are you really saving?

That is up to each of us to decide. It isn't up to you, me, or anyone else to decide what is right for another human being.

As stated earlier, the destructive behaviors that you are talking about can be made non-existent or reduced with maintaining healthy boundaries. If I don't want my x calling me a liar, I establish the boundary that I won't talk to her when she does that.

By not personalizing the accusation, it is no longer abusive because it has zero effect on me.

Once the effect has been removed and the boundary is in place, the pwBPD loses that power over the non for that particular thing. Once the power has been removed, the pwBPD will reduce or cease the behavior. Much like when a three year old learns that throwing a tantrum is ineffective; they stop doing it.

You can read the SUCCESS STORIES posted by people who were not only able to save their relationship, but they also improved them.

[icky]

northface. i think everyone here is aware of just how difficult a relationship with a BPD person is, or how (almost?) impossible. the question is whether it's helpful to describe BPD ppl as a kind of monster. or alcoholics as a kind of monster. we humans are ALL flawed. ALLLLLLL of us. not just the BPD's and the alcoholics. it's soo easy for us nons to take the moral high ground when we're talking about BPD's. when we stand next to a BPD person, it makes us look soo sane and healthy and mature and balanced and pefect, in comparison. : ). but stand us next to someone else, and that's a great reminder that we're just as flawed as everyone else. so unless you need to see BPD ppl as kind of monstrous right now, for your healing, the question is whether viewing BPD more neutrally and gently might be more useful.

[Lilyroze]

hmmmm Personally I see no reason to be so involved or take personally the way northface sees it. That is reality. No offense but 2 years in does not make a BPD relationship expert nor a long term BPD relationship. In fact most BPD relationships end at 18 to 24 months, or ironically the 16 year mark. Big difference but there is a reason for both. Many have dealt, been kind, worked with, saved, shared, cared for a BPD for many years. Some going on 20... . We have experience and are not cold, hurtful, nor not trying people. To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  Just saying. I think you need to practice a little more kindness and less judging of other nons. Build up your BPD and all others you want don't tear down other nons please.

I have helped my BPD, and also was on committees for Domestic violence, mental ill abuse advisor and court advisor for CASA. I have seen and heard it all. But to minimize someone else's abuse all to deny the reality is wrong. Good luck on your relationship and all it entails. Knowledge is power, you are seeking it, may you use it and be blessed on your path.

[Meili]

To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  

I don't think that is exactly what was said, and I certainly don't believe that is what was meant.

I think that what was meant, and I know it is what I meant, is that from time to time, people will exaggerate the BPD traits to help them cope and move on.

There are some who convince themselves that anyone with BPD exhibits all 9 traits so that they can help heal themselves. They think things like "Well, it would just be a matter of time before my pwBPD cheated on me!" When, the pwBPD may have never cheated ever.

[Kelli Cornett]

hmmmm Personally I see no reason to be so involved or take personally the way northface sees it. That is reality. No offense but 2 years in does not make a BPD relationship expert nor a long term BPD relationship. In fact most BPD relationships end at 18 to 24 months, or ironically the 16 year mark. Big difference but there is a reason for both. Many have dealt, been kind, worked with, saved, shared, cared for a BPD for many years. Some going on 20... . We have experience and are not cold, hurtful, nor not trying people. To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  Just saying. I think you need to practice a little more kindness and less judging of other nons. Build up your BPD and all others you want don't tear down other nons please.

I have helped my BPD, and also was on committees for Domestic violence, mental ill abuse advisor and court advisor for CASA. I have seen and heard it all. But to minimize someone else's abuse all to deny the reality is wrong. Good luck on your relationship and all it entails. Knowledge is power, you are seeking it, may you use it and be blessed on your path.

Thank you very much. Really appreciate the kind words in your last several posts here.
Two decades into my r/s with my BPDw, so I've been through the cycles more times than I care to recall.

Without specific T that teaches behavior therapy, the cycles will continue. If success is equated with being in a r/s that due to the herculean efforts of the non is not quite as unhealthy as it was before, I guess that's success for some. But if there are no children involved, why would someone seek to rekindle an unhealthy r/s (which is what this thread really deals with, from the beginning)?

Don't misunderstand my posts as telling anyone what to do with their lives or r/s, but trying to get clarity on why. The understanding why part of the equation, really helped me start moving forward in my own journey and helped me see things and actions for what they really were. Being non's/codependents/white knights frequently entails a certain amount of delusion about our own current situation, and is very much helped along with conditioning from our BPD partner.

[Lilyroze]

Hugs Northface,

Feel free to pm for support, and friendship. I totally understand and from just two posts could tell you were a long term person to this, tried, therapy was probably involved and you knew the drill. You are very compassionate, caring, and can tell someone who has tried, but are in reality and facts. Ignorance of abuse, implied, other otherwise is never acceptable in my book. I will always stand with someone who is trying to show concern, and the reality they faced vs rosy this is how I want it. Been there in the rosy window as well, so no judging implied or otherwise. Boy those rosy glasses served me well as an optimist all these years and will still always be a glass half full person, but same time no denial is not just a river either.

Keep the faith all, believe in yourself, self love, and keep to the path of happiness. Try your best each day and bring love into your life. At same time try and see the good in all, and your partner, but be willing to walk away from any and all abuse until therapy or a change from abuser is instituted. Your health will greatly benefit. Be love and see love, see abuse and face it. the two are not on the same path, once you acknowledge that you will be out of the FOG, truly.

Should also clarify yes there are some BPD that are wonderful, some never cheat and never hurt, or abuse. Wonderful that is out of the way. But truly some break up and fight to cheat, move on, move in and use the excuse we are broke up. No that is not right if a pattern and a way to hurt, control, exert power, cheat in the name of you made me mad that day. Seen and heard it all. Again some will deny, defend, be upset or take the BPD side as they had a right to do that to me. You are right, you set your own boundaries, wishes and standards, but in some peoples world it is not right to not talk things out, work things out and just plain abuse in many emotional or physical ways. Just the fact of diseases today I chose not to work with some that would run to others till the sun comes down and not work with me, that being in medical filed means health problem. Again we all have our own boundaries, but sometimes boundaries or not abuse is abuse folks, end of story.

[Meili]

I think that we all agree with this:

Without specific T that teaches behavior therapy, the cycles will continue.

I don't think that anyone is saying this though:

If success is equated with being in a r/s that due to the herculean efforts of the non is not quite as unhealthy as it was before,

What we are saying on this board is that we want to save the relationship so that it can be improved. As noted above, that takes work from both parties.

Don't misunderstand my posts as telling anyone what to do with their lives or r/s, but trying to get clarity on why. The understanding why part of the equation, really helped me start moving forward in my own journey and helped me see things and actions for what they really were. Being non's/codependents/white knights frequently entails a certain amount of delusion about our own current situation, and is very much helped along with conditioning from our BPD partner.

The "why" is the first thing that we try to get everyone to look at. Why do you want this relationship? The answer is as unique to the person as the person is the rest of the world.

[icky]

sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. i grew up with a very violent mother and i know that in my 20's during the therapy-and-recovery phase, it was vital for me to see her as a monster, so that i could finally break free from her toxic hold on me. now, at 40, i realise she was a damaged and flawed person and i certainly remember how violent she was, but i no longer have the emotional need to see her as a "monster" in order to protect myself and to heal and to run to somewhere safer.

[Kelli Cornett]

Hugs Northface,

Feel free to pm for support, and friendship. I totally understand and from just two posts could tell you were a long term person to this, tried, therapy was probably involved and you knew the drill. You are very compassionate, caring, and can tell someone who has tried, but are in reality and facts. Ignorance of abuse, implied, other otherwise is never acceptable in my book. I will always stand with someone who is trying to show concern, and the reality they faced vs rosy this is how I want it. Been there in the rosy window as well, so no judging implied or otherwise. Boy those rosy glasses served me well as an optimist all these years and will still always be a glass half full person, but same time no denial is not just a river either.

Keep the faith all, believe in yourself, self love, and keep to the path of happiness. Try your best each day and bring love into your life. At same time try and see the good in all, and your partner, but be willing to walk away from any and all abuse until therapy or a change from abuser is instituted. Your health will greatly benefit. Be love and see love, see abuse and face it. the two are not on the same path, once you acknowledge that you will be out of the FOG, truly.

Will do, Lilyroze.
Your assessment of me and my situation is spot on, as is your description of these types of r/s.
That's the kind of insight that's made my own personal growth and journey possible, and started me down a better road for me and my children.

Thank you.

[fromheeltoheal]

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