Sucked back in, sort of...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I didn't respond to BPDh for about a week. I guess he was going crazy about it. Not that I cared after all he'd put me through. I finally, finally decided I had to stop worrying about him, and focus on ME. I gave him what he said he wanted: freedom from ME. He threatened, I left, filed for divorce, I was sad, but so proud of myself. Still am.

Well, I was afraid he wouldn't feed the parakeets, as I hadn't been there in three days. I'd been going and getting loads of my stuff in my SUV, but he's home weekends, and I didn't want to see him. I texted "please feed the birds". Well, he said he really needed to talk to me, and I told him I don't see what we have to talk about. He begged. That's a totally new one for him. I agreed he could drive to my hometown, we'd meet at a restaurant, and talk. Now, before this though, I'd texted him just what I thought of how he'd treated me for years, and how good I'm feeling, and that I'll hear him out, but I know exactly what I want now, and what I will no longer stand for.

We meet, and I got the typical abuser crocodile tears I've always heard of, but never saw from him. He said he didn't mean it when he threatened(I think this is a lie), and that he regretted it and missed me even the night I left. He cried, and said he couldn't blame me, that he knows he's been awful to me. He asked what it would take for me to give him a second chance. I made a six point list.

He agreed to all of it, but I made it clear he needs to do it for HIMSELF, not for me. He asked me to move home, and I flat out refused. No way will I go back to living like that! Top of my list was for him to get into extensive therapy(not just his DBT he's blowing off and not working). There is a local place that is highly recommended where they do a full work up therapy wise, and adjusting your meds. It's a full day, but you go home at night. It's about a 5-7 day program, with doctors, and it's a mental health hospital. That night, he was all "sounds great". The VERY NEXT DAY, he was saying "I think you need to change too". I was calm, but I wanted to rip his head off. I told him I'd "changed" as much as I was going to, and while I'm all about compromise, the things he wants of me are never actual things. One thing I did modify/stop doing almost two years ago, yet he still says I didn't(which is pure craziness because I did). I used to call his angry, mean daughters "b*thces" to him when I was hurt due to being excluded, but I stopped doing that cold turkey, but it's like he can't even acknowledge that I stopped!

I told him I was done "changing" for him, as he's never happy even when I do. If I develop an annoying habit or something, of course I'd modify it for him, but that is NOT the sort of thing he's talking about. Then, the next day he's threatening to change the locks. We'd had a nice conversation, but he demanded I bring something back(an item he'd told me I could have), and when I said no, the exploded.

THIS was why I knew I had to leave. THIS was why I doubted his crocodile tears. Today, he asked his DBT therapist about this program I found, and she said he can't and shouldn't do it. He admits he really not working his DBT, so what sort of DBT therapist is this? This place even teached DBT, and he woulnd't have to miss his normal DBT session. He's stuck, and I almost feel that his DBT therapist is helping him stay stuck. What would getting his meds adjusted and more extensive therapy hurt? We all agree his meds are not helping him AT ALL, yet he won't go back to his psychiatrist to have them adjusted. He just says he doesn't want to try a different drug.

He says he wants to "work on the marriage" and "please give him a chance", but his ACTIONS prove that he's not willing to do much of anything on the list. He won't do anything to help himself get to a better place, and I'm not going to let him drag me down with him anymore. He's back to feeling "controlled" by this list he asked for! He wanted to know what he could do to save the marriage, but he resents it. I'm just disgusted.

This all came at the worst time too, as I'm training for a new job. He's been given a "chance" he doesn't deserve, yet he's blowing it.

He never does any of the other things his DBT therapist advises, but this time, because it suits him, he's saying he "can't go against her advice".

How do I handle this? I'm already living away from him, and now I fear he'll change the locks if I don't meet his childish demands. My attorney says he can change them, but I can break in, or have them changed back.

He's acting like I'm forcing him to do these things, which is total crap, because HE asked me what he could do to save things. I don't even for a minute think he can or will, but you'd think he'd have at least made a sight attempt?

I wish I'd never met with him to "talk". He seemed so sincere, but that didn't even last a day.

[Ceruleanblue]

I didn't respond to BPDh for about a week. I guess he was going crazy about it. Not that I cared after all he'd put me through. I finally, finally decided I had to stop worrying about him, and focus on ME. I gave him what he said he wanted: freedom from ME. He threatened, I left, filed for divorce, I was sad, but so proud of myself. Still am.

Well, I was afraid he wouldn't feed the parakeets, as I hadn't been there in three days. I'd been going and getting loads of my stuff in my SUV, but he's home weekends, and I didn't want to see him. I texted "please feed the birds". Well, he said he really needed to talk to me, and I told him I don't see what we have to talk about. He begged. That's a totally new one for him. I agreed he could drive to my hometown, we'd meet at a restaurant, and talk. Now, before this though, I'd texted him just what I thought of how he'd treated me for years, and how good I'm feeling, and that I'll hear him out, but I know exactly what I want now, and what I will no longer stand for.

We meet, and I got the typical abuser crocodile tears I've always heard of, but never saw from him. He said he didn't mean it when he threatened(I think this is a lie), and that he regretted it and missed me even the night I left. He cried, and said he couldn't blame me, that he knows he's been awful to me. He asked what it would take for me to give him a second chance. I made a six point list.

He agreed to all of it, but I made it clear he needs to do it for HIMSELF, not for me. He asked me to move home, and I flat out refused. No way will I go back to living like that! Top of my list was for him to get into extensive therapy(not just his DBT he's blowing off and not working). There is a local place that is highly recommended where they do a full work up therapy wise, and adjusting your meds. It's a full day, but you go home at night. It's about a 5-7 day program, with doctors, and it's a mental health hospital. That night, he was all "sounds great". The VERY NEXT DAY, he was saying "I think you need to change too". I was calm, but I wanted to rip his head off. I told him I'd "changed" as much as I was going to, and while I'm all about compromise, the things he wants of me are never actual things. One thing I did modify/stop doing almost two years ago, yet he still says I didn't(which is pure craziness because I did). I used to call his angry, mean daughters "b*thces" to him when I was hurt due to being excluded, but I stopped doing that cold turkey, but it's like he can't even acknowledge that I stopped!

I told him I was done "changing" for him, as he's never happy even when I do. If I develop an annoying habit or something, of course I'd modify it for him, but that is NOT the sort of thing he's talking about. Then, the next day he's threatening to change the locks. We'd had a nice conversation, but he demanded I bring something back(an item he'd told me I could have), and when I said no, the exploded.

THIS was why I knew I had to leave. THIS was why I doubted his crocodile tears. Today, he asked his DBT therapist about this program I found, and she said he can't and shouldn't do it. He admits he really not working his DBT, so what sort of DBT therapist is this? This place even teached DBT, and he woulnd't have to miss his normal DBT session. He's stuck, and I almost feel that his DBT therapist is helping him stay stuck. What would getting his meds adjusted and more extensive therapy hurt? We all agree his meds are not helping him AT ALL, yet he won't go back to his psychiatrist to have them adjusted. He just says he doesn't want to try a different drug.

He says he wants to "work on the marriage" and "please give him a chance", but his ACTIONS prove that he's not willing to do much of anything on the list. He won't do anything to help himself get to a better place, and I'm not going to let him drag me down with him anymore. He's back to feeling "controlled" by this list he asked for! He wanted to know what he could do to save the marriage, but he resents it. I'm just disgusted.

This all came at the worst time too, as I'm training for a new job. He's been given a "chance" he doesn't deserve, yet he's blowing it.

He never does any of the other things his DBT therapist advises, but this time, because it suits him, he's saying he "can't go against her advice".

How do I handle this? I'm already living away from him, and now I fear he'll change the locks if I don't meet his childish demands. My attorney says he can change them, but I can break in, or have them changed back.

He's acting like I'm forcing him to do these things, which is total crap, because HE asked me what he could do to save things. I don't even for a minute think he can or will, but you'd think he'd have at least made a sight attempt?

I wish I'd never met with him to "talk". He seemed so sincere, but that didn't even last a day.

[Fian]

Count yourself lucky.  What if he had waited 30 days before reverting back?  At least you got instant feedback on his willingness to truly change.

[Notwendy]

CB, this is a cyclic pattern. Google "abuse cycle" "rage cycle" and many descriptions appear.

You've been on this cycle before, many times.

Being "sucked in" takes two. It is great that you have come to decisions that suit you best, but these patterns are habitual and familiar. There is an element of hope " this time will be different" but the cycle goes around and around.

Real change isn't quick. You know this. It takes time and work. At this point, the motivation for his actions are about him. If he wants you back, it is because he is uncomfortable. He wants what is familiar back- and you know what familiar is. It is what you have been doing. He's testing your boundaries. If you return back to him, in the same patterns, then this boundary- the steps you have taken to be independent - mean nothing. You would have let yourself down.

This is also about you. These drama relationships have a form of addictive content. Even if you don't want to continue, the familiarity and pattern of the relationship has a way of drawing you in. It is similar to an alcoholic craving a drink when trying to give it up. So you will feel a pull to the cycle when he appears remorseful, or want to go check the birds and so on.

Leaving someone can include losses, unfortunately, but the birds ( I am not trying to be cruel here- I love animals) and the possessions are in his control and set up as a possible triangle- you, birds/possessions/objects. My mother did this with my father's possessions after he passed away. She knew I cared about them, and so she engaged them in the triangle. I finally had to come to terms that they were under her control, and so engaging in emotional discussions about them was being on the triangle with her. This was a "relationship' to her-  and having the power to emotionally engage me was part of it. I had to mourn the possible loss of them too. But to engage over something she has control over: possessions, or in your case, the birds, is continuing drama. They will do what they wish with them- because they have them.

It is hard to shift the focus on to you, your future, job training, and you are doing this. He may try to take the focus back on to him. Moving forward is the path to change.

[michel71]

Cerulean... .you have come so far. I have been following your posts for some time now.
Your cheerleaders here, myself included, want to say DON'T DO IT, DON'T GO BACK. Or at the very least, don't get sucked back in and start to feel sorry for him, put his needs first, etc and get back on the crazy train.
I have no room to talk. For weeks now I have been posting that I am ending my relationship. I don't want to. I need to. I have little hope that anything could change; even if it did, I don't think I can heal from the scars of the past... .too much and too many. And I just don't trust my uBPDw. Yet, I have been asked to try again... .to go to counseling again... .to fix this once and for all or split... .
And I am considering it.
But it kind of makes me ill to think that I am going to sign myself up for more potential abuse rather than just rip the bandaid off. It hurts either way... .to stay or go. Not sure if the pain is worse leaving or staying.
I am out of town right now and weighing things.
All I can tell you is to be true and kind to yourself. Love yourself first my friend. And good luck.

[Notwendy]

Taking note of the don't ask members to stay or leave message- I do want to clarify that this is up to you.

However, I do believe that changes take time - for anyone. For the moment - I believe your H's discomfort caused by your changing is a motivator for him to behave and get things back to where they were before. If that were to happen- then what the two of you have is the same thing you had before.

If at some point - your H is motivated to change- then he will take steps to do so- but change takes time. It also takes time for you to make changes too.

I don't know what the future holds for either of your emotional growing. You always have choices. But should you return now- consider the extinction bursts, how behavior works and the time it takes to make significant changes. You can continue to move forward with the plans you make for your benefit. He has choices to make for himself. If he is in discomfort them that is something he can learn to manage.

[empath]

In another support group, we are encouraged to "change the dance." We are the only ones that we can control, and we can make different choices to change at least our part of the dance. Sometimes, seeing the truth is hard because we know that it is the truth but we have been in the middle of it for so long, we have lost perspective.

Figure out what your options are if he continues to make difficult choices, and make healthy choices for you.

You can do this.

[formflier]

CB,

My quick reaction to this is for you to have a two track plan.

1.  Stay the course to get away and get healthy.  Regardless of what he does... you need that for you!

2.  I think you need to clarify your message to him.  Message goes something like this.

(a).  I'm leaving this marriage the way it is set up now.
(b).  If you want to work on being part of a marriage with me that is very different than the one that we have now,  we should talk more about this.  Make it clear that you are open to a different marriage based on mutual respect, love and kindness.  No threats and no anger. (don't make a list of bad things here... .use broad terms).


Can you give us the 6 point list?

Please stop telling him no or yes to things... .that is triggering him and you are getting into "fighting mode"... .the "I'll tell him/show him".  Regardless of staying or leaving, that mode isn't good for either of you.

When he asks for something (and he will)... .reflect it back to him, make sure you understand his request and let him know you will consider it and will get back to him soon. 

Listen CB... .you are making some big steps but really need to focus on being responsible for you and only you.  (not hubbies, parakeets, in laws, neighbors... .or anyone else)

Those aren't bad things to be responsible for... .but now is not the time  If you are worried about them... .find them a new home.

The only reason you should be contacting him is when you have determined that you have something healthy to say to him.

Thoughts? 

FF

[byfaith]

1.  Stay the course to get away and get healthy.  Regardless of what he does... you need that for you!

2.  I think you need to clarify your message to him.  Message goes something like this.

(a).  I'm leaving this marriage the way it is set up now.
(b).  If you want to work on being part of a marriage with me that is very different than the one that we have now,  we should talk more about this.  Make it clear that you are open to a different marriage based on mutual respect, love and kindness.  No threats and no anger. (don't make a list of bad things here... .use broad terms).

Great advice. CB you seem to have a good support system in place to achieve number 1. and (a)

it sounds like your husband is not in a place to achieve (b)

It sounds like you are on a path to a happier life.

[satahal]

It's the ultimate bait - when they act so genuinely contrite and especially with emotion they've never shown. It looks like they've hit rock bottom, gotten the wake up call they never quite heard before - hope is a natural response because in someone with out a personality disorder all of these signs might signify valid change.

I've been sucked in by it too many times to talk so I can't say what you should do - do what's in your heart and head and if you go back and regret, you can leave again. Sometimes, almost all the time, it takes us many tries.

I've come to the realization that if I stay, I stay as a caretaker. I know he can't and won't change. I stay and it requires vigilantly guarding my own mental health, constantly reinforcing my boundaries and never forgetting I'm his caretaker - not his partner.

[Notwendy]

I think the part about being sucked in is something to consider, because that's a part of us and we can work on us. "Sucked in" can be in different ways, but the sum of that is being sucked into a dysfunctional relationship pattern in a similar way to an addiction. It may hurt in ways, but it seems familiar in others.

We can't change our partner's behavior, but if we feel drawn into situations that are not good for us, it may help to work on why that is.

[formflier]

 if you go back and regret, you can leave again.

One word of caution here... . this assumes there is no more physical violence when she goes back.

That is a big assumption in this case... .and a very dangerous assumption to make.  

If he is interested in a different marriage, where anger and violence is not present, then he will do the work for that and CB can make her decisions after seeing and verifying long term change.  

I obviously lean towards "staying", but that assumes there are some healthy dynamics that can be worked on in a r/s.  CB is beginning to make healthy choices for her... and that is a wonderful thing!  

Time will tell is CBs husband is interested in something different.  Don't take one conversation as his final answer  This advice applies to either answer he gives.  In this last conversation he said all the right things... .got overwhelmed and snapped.  So... it really was a mixed message.  

That is why time and consistency is so important.  

One last random thought.  CB... .I would stay away from suggesting or evaluating his motivations for change.  The key is that he either does or doesn't change and do the work needed.  If he actually does it because he is tired of feeding the parakeets... .does it really matter?  

Would you rather him attempt and fail "for" the right reasons or attempt and succeed for the wrong reasons?  Focus on what matters... .he needs to do the work.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think it's appropriate to talk about the "honeymoon cycle" when we talk about abusive relationships. I got sucked back in so many times by my ex's promises to change, tearful apologies, regret and seeming understanding of how his behavior hurt me. Then, sometimes days, sometimes weeks, sometimes only hours, he'd be back to square one, behaving like the abusive a*hole that typified his usual behavior toward me.

[byfaith]

when they act so genuinely contrite and especially with emotion they've never shown. It looks like they've hit rock bottom, gotten the wake up call they never quite heard before - hope is a natural response because in someone with out a personality disorder all of these signs might signify valid change.

I am in a mode right now where I am participating in trying to restore our marriage. My wife hit the "rock bottom" this past Sunday evening. We will see if it is really what she says it is. She took responsibility for many things which shocked me. In essence what she was saying is that she wants to change to make her life better. She also apologized for all of the degrading things she has said to me in the past. I had told her about 4 days before she apologized how I have never had anyone attack my character and my integrity by anyone in my life as I have been been by her. I told her that I couldn't deal with it anymore.

I am hoping for good things but I am not ignorant this time around. We have separated into separate bedrooms and using separate bathrooms etc...   We are going to MC still. My wife even agreed with me concerning some issues with her son ( which most of you know that situation). Long long way to go.

I am watching to see if all the talk results in actions, and in the mean time trying to listen, validate when I can.

CB your husband seems to be more blatant in his rages and less subtle when he switches gears. In a way that is a good thing because you know where he is a lot quicker.

[Ceruleanblue]

Update:

In the first few days after leaving, I got most of the important things out, including my two cats(I think he abuses the one I've had for 11 years). I couldn't take my parakeets because the cage was too big to haul, and I have a smaller cage, and just need to clean it up. I got it out of the storage unit, and will finally have time to do that this weekend.

My bus driver training is going really well, especially in light of all that's been going on, and all this trauma for years seems to have affected my memory somewhat. I'm actually really proud of how I'm doing.

I think all of you are correct, that this is the "honeymoon phase", and that he's strongly testing my boundaries. I'm still out of the house, and have no intention of going back anytime soon, if ever. He'd have to really, really improve, and even then I would NOT move back all my stuff, I'd just bring a suitcase, and toiletries. I just don't trust him, sadly. I know that he's capable of being fake nice, because that's what he did when we were dating.

He's asked me to move back, and I flat out told him "no", and that I'm never going live with him and be treated like that again. That leaves it on HIM, if he changes or not. I've also made it clear he shouldn't do this just for me or the marriage. He needs to do this to make his quality of life better, and so he stops doing things like almost losing his job, marriage number two, and can have some happiness.

Since he's found out that I'm not backing down, he's now saying he'll call and set up an intake interview for the place I'd heard about. He's still yammering on about how it "goes against the advice of his DBT therapist", which I think it a crock of crap, because I'm sure he lies to her, minimizes things, and I'd bet she fears it will make their DBT center look badly. This is not the DBT therapist's fault, it is the fact that BPDh does not use the skills she's taught him, or actually any real effort. When he does one thing "right" she lavishes praise(as do I), but the very next time, he "forgets" and doesn't use the skill that gave him a better outcome.

I bet he'll change his mind about doing the seven day, more extensive therapy. I think he sees and can feel that I'm okay with letting this marriage go now. I also found out that he changed the pass code to our storage unit. When he got found out, he apologized and couldn't back track fast enough.

I'm going to get this birds this weekend or early next. I think he misses having his target: ME. I do not miss the drama, and I get that some people can get addicted to the chaos, but at least for now, I'm not missing it AT ALL.

I'm giving him a "chance", but I fully expect him to blow it, because it is a cycle, and he's done it so many times. This time, I've changed the dynamics because I'm gone. I'm happy right where I am, which astounds me. I'm okay with seeing him occasionally, but I also now tell him what I am unwilling to do, like attend a family funeral with him on Saturday. I'm sure he's not happy, but I've done way too much of what HE wants just to keep peace, and now that I'm not living there, I no longer have to do that. It's allowing things to be much more balanced.

I'll still likely end up divorcing him, because I truly don't believe he'll change. His brother did, but he is not his brother. I feel like I'm giving him just enough rope to hang himself. He IS capable of change, but I feel he lacks the motivation to do so, and I'm unwilling to live the rest of my life that way.

I'm sure you are all right, and I've thought the same thing: He wants what he had back, which was total control, things all his own way, my radical acceptance(of all but the abuse), and for him to have a narcissistic supply(via me), and to have someone to blame and project his rages onto.

I'm sure he's struggling, and I'm having a really hard time not thinking "you made this bed, enjoy laying in it".

[byfaith]

Hey CB,

Are you going to be driving a school bus?

[MaybeSo]

I suggest you not provide him with lists even when asked. 

Instead, make lists for yourself.

Like... .

#1- Do not engage with abusive people
#2-Do not live with abusive people
#3-Do not provide lists to abusive people about how they should "change" to get back into my life, even if they ask me to do that, because when I do that I am part of and colluding with unhealthy, codependent dynamic with abusive person.
#4-Focus on my own self care and my number one priority and responsibility which is to keep myself safe and healthy no  matter what.

[Cat Familiar]

Ceruleanblue,
You sound strong and happy. It took a lot of courage to leave. Being on your own and not in the midst of the conflict cycle gives you clarity. You go girl! I'm proud of you!

Cat

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I'm going to be driving a school bus, if I can pass the state test! I thought I'd never pass the tests at the DMV, but I did. In fact, I was doing that the same week I was moving stuff out, and all that drama unfolded. I studied when I could, prayed about it, and just didn't quit.

Now, I'm training, and I have to pass the state test that is the bus inspection(this part is a ton to remember, including engine parts, and suspension), and the actual driving test. I'm doing good in training, and have actually sort of amazed myself. I did all the back up maneuvers rather easily, and I've spent most of my adult life trying to avoid backing up in my car.

BPDh is pulling a lot of drama still. I'm going to post a blog about it later. Now that I have some distance, I'm actually finding some humor in it.

I AM feeling quite strong most of the times. I mean, I have my moments, and I can't even take my fast acting anxiety meds due to random drug testing now, but I'm doing GOOD. I don't miss the drama and minefield it felt like I was living in. I can engage as much as I want to, but then go home. And I'm only engaging enough to see how he's behaving, or "working towards getting healthier", which he appears to NOT be doing. Shocker.

My happiness is not dependent on him, and it really never was, but he sure created a lot of drama and stress for me. I'm saddened that he couldn't see we could be happy, or have a healthier marriage, and I'm saddened that he doesn't want to get healthier for his own sake. That's HIS problem now though, not mine, because I'm no longer so effected by it.

[byfaith]

That is awesome!  

It's amazing the things we can do that we thought we might not be able to do.

Keep up the good work

[Ceruleanblue]

#1- Do not engage with abusive people
#2-Do not live with abusive people
#3-Do not provide lists to abusive people about how they should "change" to get back into my life, even if they ask me to do that, because when I do that I am part of and colluding with unhealthy, codependent dynamic with abusive person.
#4-Focus on my own self care and my number one priority and responsibility which is to keep myself safe and healthy no  matter what.

I like this list! I knew it was likely futile to give him a list, but I figured I wasn't out much. I was already resolved to leave him, and I really expected him to do very little. He did even less than little, he did ZERO.

My new list is the one above. I don't regret giving him the "list", and he can't say he wasn't told what the issues were. Well, he can, as he rewrites history to suit his story, but I know better. I actually told him that he'd recently been showing me exactly why I left him. Instead of using the time to show me improvement, he still wanted to volley for control(he is all about control), but my boundaries are strong now. I know what I want, and what I will no longer stand for. I will not be abused, or bullied, and my sense of fairness and compromise again put me in a bad situation at a family event he begged me to attend. I've left him again, and he knew I was only back for the sake of my job. We didn't even share a bedroom.

He knows I've filed, and he knows I'm very angry at him for the way he behaved this morning. He got angry again, and "f" bombed me twice. I barricaded myself in the bedroom away from him when he was raging. I do not want to be around that, so I left. Packed up more stuff in my car, and left.

He's calling and he's clearly very angry. I'm going NC for now. I seem to get the angry BPDh and if I go long enough, he realizes he has to be "nice" in order for me to communicate. I'm hoping that I am strong enough to just never have to deal with him again. I'm betting he gets served the divorce papers at work this week... .