when is it time to quit?

[Oncebitten]

Ladies and Gentlemen

I have a question for those of you on the detaching board.  When do you quit?   I love my gf dearly, and have always been able to bring her back to me when she walks out because of whatever.  But when is enough, enough?  We are happy for a while... .overjoyed even.  But then something minor takes us into a tailspin.  I try and validate, try to be mindful of her feelings.  But something always causes her to push me away. I want so badly to love her and care for her. I appreciate and feel like I understand her condition. And yet I am not sure how much more of myself I can pour into the r/s when its seems as if the smallest slight is enough to discard me completely.  As if all of the love, care, and concern was for naught.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[bus boy]

Hi Oncebitten, if your posting this you probably have the answer all ready. You all ready know it never gets better. We fool our selves thinking it will be different next time, if we try harder.

[Stripey77]

Hi Bus Boy... .

I know you are being genuine in your answer, and that there is a lot of truth in what you say - that's why we're all here, and it does feel like a relentless merry go round, with no hope.  I daresay that sadly, for the vast majority of us, things sadly don't 'get better'.

However, I would like to gently point out that there are other boards on this forum, e.g. the 'improving' board, where there are lots of other people who are working on getting to a better place with their BPD SO's... .some have achieved a degree of success. Others are, I'm sure, a work in progress.

I think we need to  be careful not to apply blanket rules, or definitive black and white thinking, such as saying something 'never' gets better. This hasn't been everyone's experience on the forum, and we have to remember that we are dealing with individual people, who all bring their own individual traits and way of thinking... .so for all of us 'nons', our experiences will also be different.

[bus boy]

Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I'm thinking of my own situation. Actually I didn't think it was possible for them to change or bet better. All I saw was the getting worse side. My apologies.

[patientandclear]

The big lesson of the Improving Board is that while it's not reasonable to expect the BPD person to change (for lots of reasons), we can change what is in our control (our own reactions, feelings and behaviors) and when we do so, sometimes, the r/ship dynamics get better. Also, sometimes when we get healthier, we necessarily stop doing the dysfunctional accommodation we were doing that was keeping the r/ship going. (That was my experience.)

[fromheeltoheal]

But when is enough, enough? 

When you say so.

It can be helpful to consider a few questions as you work through your decision-making:

Do you trust her?
Can you depend on her?
Does she treat you with respect?
Does she meet your emotional needs sustainably?
Is a long-term stable relationship possible with her?
Does the good outweigh the bad?

If the answers to those questions are no, then maybe enough is enough, up to you to decide.  And when you do decide, make a real decision, which is a decision that cuts off any other possibility, when you're done you're done, no waffling, it will hurt both people less that way.  Are you at a point that you're ready to make that decision?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Oncebitten,

It's such a difficult place to be. I can relate to your feelings and wish there were a direct and simple answer to your question.

As FHTH says, enough is when you say it is. 

I encourage you to think about what it is costing you to stay in the relationship, and what you think it will cost you to get out. Make a list if you have to. Then look closely at the reality and beliefs you are living with.

What stands out to you? What step(s) can you take to move toward fulfillment—whatever that means for you?

heartandwhole

[Rayban]

But when is enough, enough? 

When you say so.

It can be helpful to consider a few questions as you work through your decision-making:

Do you trust her?
Can you depend on her?
Does she treat you with respect?
Does she meet your emotional needs sustainably?
Is a long-term stable relationship possible with her?
Does the good outweigh the bad?

If the answers to those questions are no, then maybe enough is enough, up to you to decide.  And when you do decide, make a real decision, which is a decision that cuts off any other possibility, when you're done you're done, no waffling, it will hurt both people less that way.  Are you at a point that you're ready to make that decision?

Thank you for that.  It's something I should have at hand everytime I start to ruminate about her. I  want to get to the point where I don't care what she's doing andfor what reason. 

[quoteDo you trust her?
Can you depend on her?
Does she treat you with respect?
Does she meet your emotional needs sustainably?
Is a long-term stable relationship possible with her?
/quote]

I can't trust her.  She lies, cheats and manipulates me.

I can't depend on her as her reality will always differ from mine.  I remember getting back with her after an argument, and her friend texted her to see if they were still on for dinner. She showed me the text and I told her if she already made plans she should go. I was hoping for her to say she wanted to spend time with me seeing we were back together.  She hasitated and told me she didn't know what to do. I saw her disorder that night as she ended up staying with me but she became resentful for not going later that same night.

A long term relationship is not sustainable with her.  I've tried and gotten hurt multiple times for wanting to believe this. It's not possible as she has made it clear that the sole attention of one man is not enough. 

[Oncebitten]

thank you all

i love her
I trust her... .i know thats not the norm but I do
long term possible yes
respect yes for the most part.

my biggest issues with her truly is the meeting my emotional needs sustainably... .she is wonderful as long as she is good... .but if she has an off day I cant count on her to be there for me... .I am not needy but right now I need her... .I am hurting and she is giving me the silent treatment bc she  is upset with me... .my needs never outweigh hers... .

[Lil Rocky]

I have to agree with everyone one. Only you know when its time to quit. Also, write down the pros and cons of the relationship and/ or the person. If the cons outweigh the pros then there's the answer. I did this and couldn't believe how many cons were in my friendship with an ex friend. Hope you are doing ok, oncebitten

[fromheeltoheal]

i love her
I trust her... .i know thats not the norm but I do
long term possible yes
respect yes for the most part.

my biggest issues with her truly is the meeting my emotional needs sustainably... .she is wonderful as long as she is good... .but if she has an off day I cant count on her to be there for me... .I am not needy but right now I need her... .I am hurting and she is giving me the silent treatment bc she  is upset with me... .my needs never outweigh hers... .

OK then.  So it sounds like you're not ready to make a decision, so you might try starting threads on the Deciding, Improving and/or Saving boards, to get some input from folks who are where you are as well.  And it sounds like you can't depend on her and she doesn't meet your emotional needs sustainably, so there's that, and is giving you the silent treatment treating you with respect?

[Oncebitten]

thats why i said respect for the most part.  I find the silent treatment to be the worst.  Get mad and yell at me fine, call me a name ok.  Tell me you love me one day, then refuse to speak to me the next... .thats hurtful

[heartandwhole]

thats why i said respect for the most part.  I find the silent treatment to be the worst.  Get mad and yell at me fine, call me a name ok.  Tell me you love me one day, then refuse to speak to me the next... .thats hurtful

It is hurtful, and can you live with it? This pattern is not likely to change, unfortunately. As you know, the only thing you can do is change your attitude and behavior toward the relationship—so that you can find it more satisfying. I've read your past posts and it seems like this pattern has been set up between you and it "works." I mean by this that your ex can control the amount and intensity of engagement from a distance, as a way to soothe her emotions. When she needs you, she responds to your attempts at contact, when she is afraid to lose you, she pushes you away again. You know the what and why of it all.

I was in a LDR, too, and found that the controlled contact of not seeing each other in person regularly helped pwBPD regulate his emotions toward me. Ultimately, however, I became his trigger, and the closer we got, the worse things got. That was my situation; it doesn't have to be yours.

You keep trying to "fix," the problem, and I do think that the moment that you give her space, she will reconnect, as she has in the past. The problem: when that happens, it doesn't mean things are better or she feels more trusting or ready to change her behavior. It just means that you are both starting the pattern up again.

I don't see any of it changing until one or both of you steps out of the cycle. Have you thought about taking some space for yourself Oncebitten? Time to rebalance your heart and mind so that you can feel what it's like to let go of the drama, worry, striving for a bit?

I have to detach, even if in the end we end up together. Even if she is my forever, my true love.  I can't, won't let another person decide if I am happy with myself.  I was a happy strong independentan before I met and fell in love with her.  He wasnt perfect but I liked him a hell of a lot better than what I am now.

It's not an easy situation, and I know you love her and want her to trust you and feel loved. I think every one of us on this site can relate to those feelings.    Remember, this is who she is. It's possible that she may never be able to fulfill your needs, or be there for you the way that you need her to. Can you accept that?

heartandwhole

[Leonis]

When do you quit?

Right now before you an innocent child to the equation.

[Oncebitten]

Heartandwhole

I she told me yesterday we were done and she was moving on.  I have chased and pursued. Done everything a man can to try and make up for the mistakes I have made.  And our r/s has improved. But one little thing triggers her mind and the mistakes of the past are all to fresh once again.  Not sure how to move forward here.  with or without her?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Oncebitten,

Maybe taking her words at face value this time (she's done and moving on) is an opportunity for you to move forward in your life. No one can predict what the future holds, but as you said, you did your best to right the wrongs. Your happiness is as important as anyone else's.

What do you think?

 

[Oncebitten]

I think I love her and still want to fix us.  I think if she could really feel whats in my heart, she wouldn't  say the things she says and she wouldn't walk out like this.

[drained1996]

Oncebitten,

It's easy to note your confusion about how to move forward at this crossroad in your life.  Seemingly you have two paths before you, both of which include some pain and suffering.  On the one hand, you have the comfort of knowing what you have, and also what the future holds (some good, some bad) if you continue down the road of staying.  The other it seems is fairly scary to you, as you may not be sure of what future pain and suffering may confront you if you choose the detaching path.  
I'll ask you this, down the current path you've been leading, can you see a place where there is no more pain and suffering?... .do you see happiness?  
I saw your answers to FHTH's questions... .any chance those answers may be influenced by the FOG?  Any chance that given some time and distance from your current situation... .that your logical mind may answer these same questions differently?  The FOG is a powerful force that disorients the mind and soul.  
Let's play a little game for a second... .just be creative and play along.  Close your eyes and imagine you've taken the detaching path... .and some time down that path you find you've detached and you're ok with being out of the r/s... .what do you see in that future?  How do you think you will see YOURSELF?  
We all have to make these decisions on our own.  I guess the answer in my own mind when faced many times with this very dilemma was which path was to my own happiness.  Through many recycles and frustrations, I finally saw that path did not lead to my own happiness, and I finally chose the discomfort of facing a road I did not know.  I chose the path that led me... .back to ME.  I'm happy now... .as happy as I can ever remember being.  What do YOU want for YOU Oncebitten?  The paths are before you... .it's your choice and yours alone... .but either way, you will always find love and support here.  

[patientandclear]

I think if she could really feel whats in my heart, she wouldn't  say the things she says and she wouldn't walk out like this.

From all your knowledge of BPD and where the impulses come from, what supports this belief? How many times have you shown or explained what is in your heart?

The fear reactions and bad feelings aren't coming from what she's seeing from you. The stated reason is rarely the reason. These patterns were set long ago in reference to other experiences and her feelings in reaction to closeness are not likely to change.

Paradoxically our efforts to explain ourselves can make the situation worse. Someone on here long ago counseled that I show my person with BPD my love rather than talking about it, and I think that WAS valuable advice. Often too, saying and doing nothing is the best posture. Giving up the illusion of control and seeing what happens.

Her feelings and reactions are unlikely to change. She probably at some level already knows what is in your heart. My ex knows I truly love him. It is in fact part of the problem for him in being close to me.

[Oncebitten]

Drained

Fear of the unknown perhaps.  All I can tell you is that with her its been different.  I have dated plenty, good ones and bad ones.  Walked away from good perfectly healthy relationships because we just didn't fit.  There wasn't enough to sustain it long term.  Walked away from bad ones too, and had women walk away from me.  Not once did I have the love that I do for this woman.  Not once did I have the desire to do everything humanly possible to fix it.  So that's the crux of my problem. Never been this in love before. Despite the pain I love her, despite the hurt she inflicts I can't stay mad at her.  Despite the rage directed at me I have never had it in me to say a hurtful thing to her. 

[Oncebitten]

Patientandclear

I would love to "show" her everyday that I love her.  Unfortunately in and LDR I can't be there everyday.

I show her whats in my heart every chance I get.  And when we can spend that time together its amazing.  I feel like if we can get through this and get to the point where we are together on a daily basis so many of our problems would go away.

[JQ]

OnceBitten, "OB",

You've received some interesting & good feedback from the group here and we've interacted several times on several threads. You're question to the group opens up pandoras box. As I've said, NO 2 people are alike regardless of they have BPD or not. So to ask this question of the group in order to get polling average isn't really a fair question to YOU.

When is it time to quit? Well ONLY you can answer that question in regards to YOUR situation. I nor anyone here can tell you when the time is right. You need to absorb all the avenues of information available to you, therapist, counselor's, books, this website, your own independent thoughts and think what is best for you. What we can do is give you all the available information to you as we know it, possibly from our own experiences so that YOU can make the best choice for "OB". We might not agree with it but if you make the choice based on ALL the available information & facts as you know them that is all that counts.

P&C points out some things in their post. "The fear reactions and bad feelings aren't coming from what she's seeing from you. The stated reason is rarely the reason. These patterns were set long ago in reference to other experiences and her feelings in reaction to closeness are not likely to change." / "our efforts to explain ourselves can make the situation worse." AND probably a VERY important point, "The big lesson of the Improving Board is that while it's not reasonable to expect the BPD person to change (for lots of reasons), we can change what is in our control (our own reactions, feelings and behaviors) and when we do so, sometimes, the r/ship dynamics get better. Also, sometimes when we get healthier, we necessarily stop doing the dysfunctional accommodation we were doing that was keeping the r/ship going."

What they are telling you is that nothing you say or do is going to change the situation. Their behavior is due to severe mental behavioral illness that YOU have NOTHING to do with & her behavior as much as it hurts & affects you was set in place decades ago before you were ever in the picture. P&C point out that things in the r/s get better when YOU look inward at yourself & find out why you react & act in the manner that you do. Once you address those issues, then you'll see the r/s from a very enlightening position that leads to STOPPING the dysfunctional accommodation from your new found sense of self, love of self.

Do not try to apply logic of your actions, words or behavior to a r/s with someone who has a severe mental BEHAVIORAL illness. Look at healing yourself, improving yourself, your behavior. Learn to take care of yourself first, that your happiness in life is important too. Apply the 51% rule here OB. Is this a 2 way r/s or are you providing the majority of it? Would you like to be in a r/s that provides you with the same level of care, love, friendship, honesty, mutual respect, communication that you are providing?  I get that "some" NONs have a level of "SOME" success of the "Management" of impulse control along with other behavioral issues of their respective BPD. But are you achieving this success with a compromise of your self, your values, your goals, you as a person in order to what? Maintain the awkward dance of back & forth drama / chaos / hurt?

If you are honest with yourself, then as someone points out, you don't need to ask the question to the group either either way. To stay or go ... .the choice has been & will ALWAYS be YOURS to make.

I wish you the peace & strength that you need on your journey OB. 

J

[Oncebitten]

JQ

thank you so much for your input and support.  Everything you have said I have known for a long time.  I can't force her to reciprocate or forgive me.  And the further I have gone down this path of apologizing and chasing the worse things have gotten.  She thinks she can treat me like S**t and get away with it.  Well Despite my sins against her, I don't deserve how she has treated me. 
The whole line about me not being sorry enough is ridiculous.  I am sorry, but i am not the type to pour my feelings out and cry and appear upset.  And honestly I wont pretend to be.  I am sorry and will do what I do to show it, which is trying everyday to make up for the mistakes and remind her that i love her.  But I wont be someone I am not. 

[myself]

But I wont be someone I am not.  

So... .Are you someone with more reasons to stay or to walk away?

[Lilyroze]

OB,

I think you are a kind, caring individual. I am sorry to see you in so much hurt and pain. I can understand, believe me. Though this is not about me it is devastating, heartbreaking and soul crushing to keep trying to silent treatment, no feedback or worse. If you really need the person and they are doing that it says a lot. Though this is not about me, it is about you.

I think it sounds like your situation is different then mine. My silent treatment has been days and months. Many calls and texts, letters unanswered. Where if you have been giving calls, flowers and planning a trip different. You have been having lots of daily calls, I have not for going on 4 months. That doesn't lesson your hurt, or pain, or make it right. Just saying yours might be salvageable with some other things to work through.

Either way if you talk to her again, she needs to respect that she can't just hang up phone, turn it off for hours or days without at least letting you know she loves you but needs time. Time is OK, as said 12, 24 hours etc if more then that then should let you know she is going NC for awhile, and pick an agreeable time.

Being that you mentioned a few more things in there, then again if you start other thread, would love to comment on a few of your thoughts.

If you decide to stay would give you advice like have been, or on another thread.

If detaching can tell you it is hard if you love someone.

[JQ]

OB,

it sounds as if you've put in some major boundaries for yourself and this is VERY good thing. Now that you put in those boundaries you need to keep them in place by enforcing consequences for breaking those boundaries. As hard as it is, this is a sign of self respect and if she doesn't respect you then you need to do it for yourself.

Do NOT look at things such as "sins" against her, there is NOTHING to forgive you for. You two were in a mutual r/s that required mutual respect, friendship, love, caring, etc. Once one partner gives more than the other on a constant manner, then you have to ask yourself why are you in this r/s to begin with? Why is it ok that you give and give and the pwBPD can constantly take and take & never give back in return. I think this is one major area that NONs have a problem with. They believe some where in their core that if they love hard enough, if they give more of themselves then is healthier to do, if they constantly apologize for things that were never their fault or beyond their control, if the NON continues to try and be perfect for their pwBPd then they will eventually be loved.

If this is the case, then the NON really needs to stop what their doing, look in the mirror and really evaluate what they're doing. Really look back at their past and see why they do these things? Why they behave this way? You might not like what you find PJ but trust me it will be the key to opening the door to a whole new life of self respect, self love, and a complete and total sense of self. Once you do this you will truly be on a path of enlightenment and only good things will follow.

J

[Oncebitten]

JQ

I think that right now she is upset and hurt... .but I am sure that my neediness and current lack of self respect aren't helping things.  I am going to do my best at fix me. I can't fix her, no matter how hard I try or how much I love her.

[JQ]

OB,

I'm sure that your exBPDgf is hurt, confused, upset, question a lot of things in her life. You're on a good path to "fixing" yourself. It'll be filled with potholes along the way but we're here to help pull you out of them.

j

[fromheeltoheal]

I am going to do my best at fix me. I can't fix her, no matter how hard I try or how much I love her.

Is that the start of a decision to disconnect and detach emotionally Oncebitten?

[Oncebitten]

JQ


thank you for your support... .I really appreciate it and need it.  yes many potholes to come.