Untangling myself from parents' fear/overprotectiveness

[eeks]

For those of you who have not read my prior posts, I don't think my parents have personality disorders (although I think my father has narcissistic traits).  This theme is mostly about their having adopted various forms of control (of themselves, others including me, and life) as a survival strategy in response to unhealed abuse and trauma.

Even though I rarely call her anymore unless it's necessary, which is a positive behaviour change (since I used to call to talk about my childhood), I have realized that I still want validation from my mother.  More on that later.

The last time I visited my parents, I wanted to get the juicer down from the cabinet above the fridge and I pulled over a chair to stand on.  My dad yells ":)on't do that, it's dangerous, I'll go get you the stepladder."  I didn't think it looked that dangerous.  The juicer was close enough to the front of the cabinet that I could reach it without standing on tiptoes (which would be unstable) and my mom was right there so I could hand the heavy base to her without bending down to reach the countertop (also unstable).

So, I did that, and gently stepped off the chair to my dad walking back in the room and yelling (or was it growling?) at me, "Aaagh!"  He yelled, ":)o you know where most accidents happen?"  (The answer he probably expected or would give was "at home"  But I said "Yeah, people who put ladders on carpets."  (This was a reference to a time a few years ago when he had been using a ladder to reach... .to paint or install something, don't remember... .leaned the ladder on the wall and the ladder's feet were on a large area rug over the wooden floor.  He got on the ladder, the carpet slid, he fell and broke his ankle.)  He did not say anything in response, and left the room.

I went over to my mother, and I told her that I didn't have to reach far, or bend down, so I assessed the risk and decided to go ahead.  I was hoping she would validate me.  She said, "It's risky."  (as in, standing on a chair is risky, period.)  Every time she just steps in with her own rational assessment of things.

I don't even really ask for validation from my father.  At first when I thought about the reason for that, just now, I thought it was because I just don't have a good relationship with him, or I know he can't give it... .and yet some of my mom's rationales are just as bizarre as his?  Maybe because she at least professes to care about me.  Anyways, that's a separate question.

But with my mother... .this has happened before.   The pattern is... .I experience a situation with a third person in which I feel invalidated, defeated, treated unfairly.  Some situation in which I feel I had a legitimate point of view or feelings that weren't heard or were actively opposed.  I go to my mother for validation, as many of us would do in that situation, go to a trusted person for that.  And she explains to me why what the other person did was valid.  Or some hypothetical positive motivation that they might have had.  Or why I have to do what they want me to do.

Like the time when I said I had had suicidal thoughts and my sister said "That's not my problem" and my mother said to me "She doesn't know how to help."  I said, "Why does she get a free pass, such a benevolent interpretation of her actions?", I had to press and press my mother before she finally started crying and said "I can't understand how she could say something that cruel." 

It isn't that I want my mother to always agree with me, tell me what I want to hear or say the other person is a villain.  I want her to grant some validity to my emotions and assessments of situations, and maybe, as someone in a closer relationship to me than whoever the other person/group is, grant me some of the empathy that the other person did not.  I think in some situations I may also be looking to her to help me mourn that my desires/expectations in the situation were not met, so I can feel fortified enough to give it another try.

So, there's a few things I'm puzzling over here.

Even though I understand intellectually that my mother is not capable of giving me the attuned response I want, and almost never call her like I used to to talk about my childhood, i.e. my behaviour has changed... .I still want her validation.  I asked myself, why?  And the answer that came was "Then I would know my needs at the time were legitimate".  Yes, I know some of you find the "inner child" caring for yourself exercises helpful... .but for me it just feels really important to have someone else recognize it.  That's all I can say.

I'm not able to validate myself in the presence of my parents' anxious demands (current, or internalized ones from the past).  You'd think that my life experiences in which I act and bad things do not happen (or they do, but they're not things that I could have anticipated anyway) would be enough to prove to me that I can trust my own body and mind's response to life.  I somehow get sucked in to the "rational debate". 

I get the sense that my parents may get triggered by something I'm doing, dump their trauma fears on me and want validation from me... .the attunement they never got from their own parents.  Even when I've said, "I'm an adult, if something bad happens I will face the consequences," they have kept on trying to explain to me why what I did was wrong.

I apologize if this seems muddled.  I feel muddled!  What I really want is freedom, including freedom from the kind of fear that obstructs my life, self-expression or actions towards the things I desire.  All my rehashing of the past is out of a desire for that freedom. 

I know, some of you are probably thinking boundaries, and don't JADE.  It actually never occurred to me till now that I could tell my parents if they are concerned about something I'm doing, I won't listen unless they speak about their own experience and feelings (i.e. "'I' statements".

[Notwendy]

Your family reminds me of my in laws. I don't think either of them has a personality disorder, and they have been good parents in many ways, but they are invalidating. My FIL is also very critical.

It's similar to your parents- not very overt, but defeating. If one of his kids wanted to do something, my FIL's first response is to be critical of the idea. MIL was also the traditional type who wouldn't dare negate his role- of authority in the home- so she wouldn't speak out differently if it was the case that a child then went to her to be validated.

There's a sense of underlying control in the home, with people not daring to speak out, and some WOE around the parents. Some kids have not moved away from home and others have underachieved- something I wonder is the result of someone invalidating their aspirations.

I recall encouraging one of the younger kids to apply to a college a short distance away and getting an angry response from other family members. It's like you don't dare do something different. There isn't a lot of BPD/NPD in that family, but there is a co-dependency from what I can observe.

I can relate to your longing for validation, not from my mother but from my father. It's almost as if we can't give up on that- wanting it- and no matter how many times we try, we still have hope. I held on to this hope and kept trying, until he passed away.

One thing that has helped is not that I could stop wanting it, I don't need it as much, not from anyone. Dealing with co-dependency has helped that. I think that you have been able to identify your parents' behavior as coming from their own fear- but it isn't about you. Being able to not take their comments as personally isn't an impossible goal, even if we don't stop wanting their validation.

[schwing]

Hi eeks,

Even though I understand intellectually that my mother is not capable of giving me the attuned response I want, and almost never call her like I used to to talk about my childhood, i.e. my behaviour has changed... .I still want her validation.  I asked myself, why?  And the answer that came was "Then I would know my needs at the time were legitimate".  Yes, I know some of you find the "inner child" caring for yourself exercises helpful... .but for me it just feels really important to have someone else recognize it.  That's all I can say.

I think it is perfectly normal for a child to seek validation from his/her parents. And typically, children might turn towards one parent more than the other. In theory, as children, after receiving consistent nurturing/validation we internalize this behavior; that is, we learn to give it to ourselves. Issues come up for us, when our parents for one reason or another are unable or unwilling to provide what we, as children, naturally seek from their parents.

You understand "intellectually" that your mother "is not capable of giving [you] the attuned response [you want]. And you don't seek validation from your father.  :)o you understand that as an adult you are perfectly capable of deciding whether or not your own needs are legitimate?  

I know if "feels really important to have someone else recognize" your needs, because it is important. But do you understand why you seem to require that this come from your mother? Why not get it from someone else who can be depended upon doing so? The best solution, however, is to seek it only from yourself. But if that doesn't feel right, then what can you do?

I'm not able to validate myself in the presence of my parents' anxious demands (current, or internalized ones from the past).  You'd think that my life experiences in which I act and bad things do not happen (or they do, but they're not things that I could have anticipated anyway) would be enough to prove to me that I can trust my own body and mind's response to life.  I somehow get sucked in to the "rational debate".  

Who are you debating with? Your parents? or yourself? If your parents are incapable (or unwilling) to validate you, then are you trying to squeeze water from a rock?

I get the sense that my parents may get triggered by something I'm doing, dump their trauma fears on me and want validation from me... .the attunement they never got from their own parents.  Even when I've said, "I'm an adult, if something bad happens I will face the consequences," they have kept on trying to explain to me why what I did was wrong.

Maybe they just choose to use you as an emotional scapegoat. That's the lazy way out; instead of facing your own issues, just dump them (unconsciously) onto your children. Seems to me that's what your parents might be doing. Bottom line though, is they are incapable of giving you want you still from them.

I apologize if this seems muddled.  I feel muddled!  What I really want is freedom, including freedom from the kind of fear that obstructs my life, self-expression or actions towards the things I desire.  All my rehashing of the past is out of a desire for that freedom.  

The fear isn't yours is it? I thought it was your parent's fear. If it's their fear, then it doesn't belong to you; you do not need to be responsible for their fear. You only need to be responsible for your own feelings.

And if you feel like you still need something (even if it's from your mother), you might considering finding a way to give it to yourself.  I'm of the "inner child" camp, but I know you don't want to hear about that. But I will say, I chose that camp because I caught myself seeking these needs from other people who emotionally resembled my parents, which really didn't give me what I wanted (i.e. freedom).

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY EEKS:  

It actually never occurred to me till now that I could tell my parents if they are concerned about something I'm doing, I won't listen unless they speak about their own experience and feelings (i.e. "'I' statements".

Do you have some other examples of what your parents are concerned about (other than standing on the chair)?

I just thought I'd add some thoughts from perhaps a different perspective.  Please don't take this as invalidating.  It isn't meant to be critical, only to offer a different perspective.  It can be interesting how different people can look at the same situation from very different perspectives.

Why did you have a need for validation in regard to the situation of standing on the chair?  What would you have liked your mother to say, that would offer validation? 

Would it have been possible for your mom to validate you, if she agreed with your father's logic that it was an unsafe situation?  Perhaps you father was concerned for your safety?

One prospective is that you and your dad had a difference of opinion. I used to work for a very large corporation, where safety and accident prevention were important.  In accordance with my training, I would have probably joined your dad in pointing out that you shouldn't stand on a chair.

There is a day of reckoning  with accidents, we escape many of them until the day we don't.  The "standing on a chair" situation has been a frequent example in many safety meetings I've attended over the years.


My sister is my pwBPD.  My dad had some BPD traits, mostly anxiety, depression and emotional dysregulation.  He was generally grumpy, angry and nitpicky.  My dad would have yelled at me, If I stood on the chair.  I remember a time when I was in my early 20's and still living at home.  I was in a car accident.  Someone ran a red light and clipped my rear qtr panel, as I completed a left hand turn.  When I got home, my dad yelled at me and told me it was my fault. 

That was my dad, and he was who he was.  Although, I occasionally got validation, I grew to never look for it or expect it.  Many times my motivation was to NOT get yelled at.

This website had a lot of great tools to enhance emotional intelligence.  Unfortunately, the average person is more apt to be lacking in emotional intelligence (and communication skills, like validation).  Unless they enter therapy or venture into reading self-help books in psychology, people usually mimic what they know and what they were exposed to. 

Are you currently in therapy?  There are different styles of therapy.  If one style doesn't work, then another style might.  If you haven't read the book, The Happiness Trap, by Russ Harris, it might be worth a read.  It is based on ACT Therapy.  My therapist recommended the book.  ACT Therapy is her preferred style.

What is Acceptance & Commitment Therapy? 
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) gets it name from one of its core messages: to accept what is out of your personal control, while committing to action that will improve your quality of life.

The aim of ACT is to help people create a rich full and meaningful life, while effectively handling the pain and stress that life inevitably brings.

Have you tried journaling about your childhood experiences?  How would having your mom validate certain things about your childhood make a difference at this point in your life?  Your reality may never match her memory or perspective. 

I know that some people find value in looking into the past, but sometime there can be more value in putting the past behind us and moving forward.  We can't change the past, but we can change our future and how we interact and react.  We can choose to forgive someone without an apology.

[Notwendy]

Your parents may have difficulty with boundaries and managing their own feelings. As a parent, I admit to having fears once my children are past my ability to protect them. That's basically when they outgrow the playpen. Then, I have to get a grip on my fears when I realize that I can not keep them in the playpen their whole lives.

As a parent, it is my responsibility to both protect them from harm and also "let go" as they take steps to becoming individuals and competent adults.

It means letting them walk to a friend's house in the neighborhood by themselves when they are old enough, even though I sat anxiously by the phone to hear that they got there OK. Because, at some point, they need to be able to do this on their own.

Parents cringe the first time their kid rides off on their bike, goes to kindergarten, high school.

Then college- where we can't see if they are climbing on chairs and so on.

But we have to recognize that these are our feelings- a kid isn't "doing " this to us. It is us reacting to letting our kids grow up which we know we have to do. If we squelch this- in order to manage our own fears, this is selfish, but a co-dependent (or NPD/BPD) who has trouble with boundaries might not knowingly cross this line.

I believe this is what is going on in my H's family and why so few family members leave home- it makes the parents sad and uncomfortable. The empty nest does make parents sad and uncomfortable, but it is our job to let the kids leave the nest. They are not responsible for our feelings about it.

Perhaps a way to help you is to see that this isn't about you. It's about your parents and their feelings- and how they manage them. While you wish they were different, they are who they are. That's sad. I know that not being validated by my father was sad for me, but if I saw this as not being about me, it helped.

[Sunfl0wer]

Even though I understand intellectually that my mother is not capable of giving me the attuned response I want, and almost never call her like I used to to talk about my childhood, i.e. my behaviour has changed... .I still want her validation.  I asked myself, why?

Maybe it is possible that there is nothing "wrong" with desiring your mom's validation? 

I recall learning about parental alienation around these boards.  There is the guy famous for his work regarding PA called Craig Childress.  I was trying to fathom how the dynamics work.  How does one parent gets a child to turn against the other and resent them. 

Well, (without going off into PA details) part of what is happening requires us to accept that the child is biologically driven to love and bond with both parents.  It is how we are evolved, made, wired, however you want to think of it, just that it is in our biology to desire this with our parents.  This is the case even in the face of abuse.

[I have to say, I am aware that I am outside of this norm as when a baby, I believe I had RAD.  Therefore, I do not have same bonding desires inherent in many others.  (Or maybe they were squashed, whatever) I have often been quite satisfied without my parents validation.]

My point is... .
Maybe it is a natural thing and "ok" to desire validation from your mom?

I see how in the face of her not being capable to return validation may cause pain, disappointment, yet maybe this desire is still an "ok" fact of you?

Sounds like you are aware of it and making rational decisions tho, which seems important.

[Notwendy]

What is validation? It is knowing someone sees us for who we are, and when we grow up with disordered parents, it feels like they can't see the real us. It could be from their projections, or their seeing us as extensions of ourselves, or that we are WOE and not being authentic. I think we all want to be validated this way.

But we can validate ourselves- see ourselves as who we are, and be as authentic as we can be - and this includes with ourselves. It is sad if our parents can not give us the validation we wish for. But there isn't anything wrong with wanting it.

I wanted my parents' validation. At one point, I gave up trying to get this from my mother as I don't think she is capable of it, but it doesn't mean I don't want it. I didn't give up wanting, or trying, with my father.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY EEKS:   
I revisited some information today about validation and invalidation. 

Just wondering if you might be getting some invalidation from your parents? 

Here are links to a couple of articles on Validation versus Invalidation.
www.eqi.org/invalid.htm#Validation and Invalidation

www.psychopathsandlove.com/invalidation/

What do you think?

[eeks]

Thank you, all, for the replies.  Lots to think about, I am drafting a response.

www.psychopathsandlove.com/invalidation/

I was looking for this website!   I knew I had read an extensive list somewhere of invalidating responses, and I wanted to find it again but hadn't bookmarked it.   

[Notwendy]

Wow I heard a lot of those statements growing up from my parents, and my H did too. As kids, we accept that kind of response as normal - even though it is hurtful.