Possibly first BPD weirdness since Biblical Counseling ended

[formflier]

The quick version:  My wife is being weird about me being home with a child while she is working.  Sigh... .I thought this was solved.  Tonight I'm going to get together with her and "listen to her concerns"... .no other agenda... .will do my best to be empathetic and not-prejudge... .and then hopefully pivot to solutions.

The long version:  Last night I thought things were fine with me keeping D3 today and tomorrow since I was free of medical appointments for those two days.

This morning I get back home after Bible study with some men and she and kids are nowhere to be found.  30-45 minutes before I would expect them to get on bus and my wife to go to work.

I text that I am home and some about Bible study.  Texts below

Me: Just got home from Bible study. Got loaned a book... .if he wants to marry my daughter 6:57 AM

Me: You'll never guess what I talked about for furthest and closest 6:57 AM

FF wife phone: Would like to hear about it. About you keeping ":)3 name" all day... .lets be wise in making this decision and talk about this more tonight when I get home. I have some concerns I would like to discuss. "FF wife name" 7:11 AM

ff wife phone: can you call my phone and see if you find it? I will swing by and grab it if you do... .7:11 AM

Me: K... .will talk tonight 7:11 AM

Again... .no indication last night that this was a big deal.  I've kept her many times over the summer, so my guess (just a guess) is there is something in her mind about her going to work and me being home.  She wasn't working over the summer.

I have a social security disability claim in process (now that I am 100% permanent and total at VA).
She would rather me get a job at a local factory.  She hasn't directly said it, but it's clear she isn't happy with me "trying" for SSDI... . 

Who knows, could be something totally different on her mind. 

My plan is to "be there for her"... .see what it's like in her world and make sure I can reflect that back to her... .before even letting my mind go to solutions.  Of course... .if blame starts up or BPDish stuff... .I'll either redirect... .or exit.

She has a meeting with her female "mentor" this afternoon right after work.  The biblical version of an individual counselor. 

Hopefully that will have her in a decent... .stable mood when she gets home.

Thoughts?  No shock... .on my end.  Sure I am disappointed, but feel confident I can get the conversation started well this evening.

FF

[byfaith]

My plan is to "be there for her"... .see what it's like in her world and make sure I can reflect that back to her... .before even letting my mind go to solutions.  Of course... .if blame starts up or BPDish stuff... .I'll either redirect... .or exit.

That sounds like a good plan to me... .You sound pretty confident that you can steer it in the right direction.

When you say reflect back to her... .do you mean repeat back to her what she was saying to you so she knows you listened and cared?

I am working on communication skills so I just wanted to make sure that is what you meant.

I hope the conversation goes well

[formflier]

When you say reflect back to her... .do you mean repeat back to her what she was saying to you so she knows you listened and cared?
 

Yep... .for "intense" things, I have about a 50% success rate at reflecting back and getting to a solution.  Sometimes it will fall apart because she keeps "shifting" her idea that I am trying to reflect back.  She has admitted to doing this and "being mean to me" when I was trying to be kind and following the "rules"... .but it's been several months since something (potentially) of a big magnitude has been handled.

That's good for me because I'm not raw about anything.  Potentially bad if she has "forgotten" ... .

FF

[KateCat]

I think you've got this, and you may not even need to break a sweat.

New school year? Your wife's back to teaching? This puzzling conversation took place at 7:00 a.m.?

I could be wrong, but I think you've been down this road many, many times and can guess what's coming. (One of two things, maybe? Either that you are a lazy slacker or that for some reason your wife is unwilling to name, your children are not safe around you? These are guesses based solely on your posting history here.)

The clinical paranoia with which I am familiar is exactly like this. It's a chronic condition with periodic flare ups. Flare ups typically happen during times of stress. For your wife, this is likely one. The reprieve you've had was likely a summer break for the whole family.

If anything, I think just being calm and not trying to fix something right away may be your best bet.

And here's some editorializing on my part: Unless your financial situation is truly worrisome, I think your presence in your home for your children is a more powerful force for good than any office or factory position you might be offered.

If your wife didn't suffer from mental illness, how might she feel about having a partner in parenting like you? A husband who goes to a men's Bible study group and takes an active interest in books on raising healthy sons and daughters?

Keep doing this good work even if your wife can see it only intermittently.  Your children will certainly see it.



 

[formflier]

KateCat,

I'm 99% sure you are right.

That being said... .I have been making a conscious effort today to keep my mind clear about this and "set it aside" until it is time to discuss this.  I was friendly with my wife we she came home... .little peck on check.  She wasn't as weird as this morning... .but it was still there.

So... .I didn't push it.  Went on about making dinner and that kind of thing.

Later she wanted to talk about her day at school... .and we had a good conversation about that.   It was a frustrating day.  She actually broke up a fight between 4th grade girls... .both girls have been suspended over it.  Not enough radios on playground... .so they had to physically restrain both girls and help them calm... .while a runner went to office to get principals.  When she seemed done talking about it... .I was done. 

The goods in this... .she wants to be "wise" about this and she has asked for time to discuss concerns.  Vice blazing away via text at whatever is on her mind. 

My plan... .listen and reflect.  Make some comments about how glad I am that she wanted to discuss and make decisions together with wisdom about our kids.

My goal is to avoid making any judgments or sound "judgmental" this evening.

1.  I don't think it would do any good and likely would harm "the long game"...
2.  It's not about what happens with D3 tomorrow.  It's about gently nudging the process along in the right direction and avoiding "reacting" to her detours. 


FF

[formflier]

Pretty standard drivel.

she kept claiming I was getting mad... .I disengaged. 

The basic concept is that I am mentally unstable and not able to relate to people in work situations (disability claim plays part of this, in her mind... I suppose)... .therefor I can't be trusted in childcare situation.

I listened... clarified a few things.  Did fair on validating... but basically listened.

Plan of action:

She is going to go with me to psychologist visit to discuss her concerns... .was very vague on if there were more... .but insistent that the psychologist "here all of it".

If it gets her in the room with psychologist... for several visits... .I'm OK with it.

FF

[KateCat]

You're doing great.

I'm pretty familiar with how this paranoid need to find "confirmation" works. My husband's calls to police about a series of  neighbors and his attempts to secure employment law representation for work situations always meet swift dead ends, but any time he is under particular stress, they revive out of nothing and nowhere.

I think the psychologist has already indicated that she sees your wife's paranoia as striking.

Will your plan of action be to observe the psychologist in order to develop even better methods of responding to your wife's fears?   

[formflier]

Definitely want to take my ques from Psychologist. 

The P had been discussing ways to get her to come in. 

Step 1 is to get her in.  Step 2... .me keep my mouth shut and let P do her thing.

Thoughts on plan?

FF

[KateCat]

Your plan is perfect, in my view.

It's a rare thing to get a person with paranoia in front of the right audience, so to speak.  

If there's more than one session, so much the better.

You are definitely doing something right to find yourself at this point. (At the point where your wife only thinks of you as "mentally unstable" in a non-specific way and is willing to come in and talk about it with a counselor.)

[formflier]

Tomorrow I have to be extra careful with my self care.

I just woke up... .and I'M wide awake.

While I am handling this well... .there are impacts. 

The earliest that we can possibly get in is this coming Tuesday. 

I certainly will try to keep things calm and not discuss this further.  I also need to be ready for my wife to "push it" and try to get a reaction.


She tried several dysfunctional tactics this evening.  I don't think she got much from any of them.   At end of walk she stuck with tried and true... ."you are mad" and other attempts to poke at me.


FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I think Kate's opinion is correct.

Your wife seems to be basically high functioning in many ways- holds a job, seems to be able to take on the role of mother in productive ways. FWIW this is more than what my mother could handle, so from my perspective, I see your wife in a basically positive light.

Yet, she has recurrent episodes of paranoia. Also, fall- back to school for her, and the kids is a transition and most transitions are stressors to some extent. I think teachers can feel both anticipation, and anxiety at the start of a school year, as well as the loss of some free time - even if they like their jobs. For moms ( I know I get this feeling ) the start of a school year is both liberating and a bit sad- school comes with some free time, but we miss the kids, and- the signal that they are one year closer to that empty nest.

The difference between a mom with poor emotional regulation and one who can emotionally regulate is that, while I get a little melancholy about another school year, I know these are my feelings and I deal with them. A mom with BPD may feel resentful ( you get to stay home and I don't) and just agitated or weird.

What if some of your wife's weirdness is just her way of coping with these feelings? You see it as a heralding of something brewing- something for you to take action on- take the bull by the horns and correct this. But what if you just let her deal with it- even if it progresses to some crazy stuff- without you taking part to fix it?

I don't disagree with the P plans, I'm just wondering if this is something that you have to fix or just something she has to go through. To be honest, I too get a little stressed and melancholy at this time of year. This also triggers my H who is very sensitive to changes in my mood and attentiveness to him. But this isn't about him- I am adjusting to the new changes in routines- getting the kids up early, new schedule, new teachers and yes, more time for me, but I miss them... .

Perhaps your wife is on the verge of a big dysregulation - you know this best, but however, what if she is just dealing with this kind of mom stuff and the change in her mood is distressing to you? Just food for thought here.

[KateCat]

I won't repeat Notwendy's above post because it reflects my thoughts entirely.

I don't see a need to meet with the psychologist on an emergent basis. In my mind, the visits to the psychologist with your wife will be valuable mostly to you. To help you come to terms with the nature of your wife's condition and the best ways for you to be the leader of the family and move forward.

The best rx for this holiday weekend may be to relax as best you can.  (Unless your wife is calling the police on you or something.)

[formflier]

Clarity on my concern:  Last year, as I was calming things down I chose not to "fight" my wife's desire for childcare to be "only" done by her parents and for me to have ZERO role in that, because of my "mental instability" and my "danger to the kids".

Once her job was over, she "repented"... .was fine with me being the leader... .blah blah blah.

I traded time with my daughter for "relative" stability.  I traded 6 months of walks to the park, daddy playdates... etc etc.

I'm certainly not setting a deadline or drawing a line in the sand (yet) but there is a very small chance I will trade more than a month  to allow for some meetings and action.

Luckily:  Her concerns were also presented with a solution and I'm going to move forward with that.  Solution:   Discuss with Nurse Practitioner and Psychologist (they are deciders about my "safety" around kids)

Obviously I will discuss with P, but I see no reason to continue allowing another person to define my parenting time. 

Since biblical counseling has fallen apart, P and I have been discussing how to best approach getting her in for a couple sessions "to assess how things are".  Basically, since P is teaching me things, she is looking for feedback from my wife on "changes" in me.

The obviously other motive is to build rapport to keep checking in monthly... .or every two weeks... ."to make sure we are on the right track"



FF

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't tolerate someone interfering in my relationship with the kids either. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it may also not come to that.

I respect the idea of repentance, but the idea of having to repent to one's spouse kind of irks me. Apologies are a good thing. Personally, I think repentance is between us and the Creator. I can grasp the idea of you being the leader in the home as a model of this, but I don't know how much of this position involves you keeping your wife in line. The Creator made her as she is, and she has a mental illness. You don't have to tolerate her behavior as a result of this, but wanting her to repent can cross the line of thinking she was somehow made wrong. The design of the Creator is not the same as ours.

(For people in 12 step groups- the higher power is as one understands it. Having a higher power means we don't get to decide to fix people- cause we didn't make them.)

She's going to have her episodes of paranoia. This time, if she brings it up, don't agree to day care. The only way to really get the kids away from a parent is to prove them to be incompetent in court. Hope she doesn't try this, as she doesn't have a case.

FF, I know you've got this, and you have made amazing progress in your marriage and as a father. I'm giving feedback because I have noticed that fall is an emotional time for me. It is something I have to take note of, and also that I need the space to take care of my own feelings during this transition. I might not respond too well to someone else's attempts to fix that ( so long as I don't hurt anyone else in the process).

[SamwizeGamgee]

You're a saint.  I don't know or understand all your relationship and history, but, I'd not put up with someone separating, or presuming the ability or authority, to separate me from my daughter. 

[Cat Familiar]

Whatever it takes to get her into meeting with your P is worth it. It's irritating to be the identified patient yet it's a good strategy for dealing with a pwBPD. I think most pwBPD have a touch of paranoia and they all seem to not want to take responsibility for their contribution to relationship issues IMO.

I wore the mantle of "identified patient" in order to get my husband into MC. The problem for you, FF, is that you don't want to emphasize this since you're already considered "disabled" and somehow in your wife's mind this morphs into a mental disability.

My longterm boyfriend had service-related PTSD, but that certainly didn't keep him from being an excellent parent.

[formflier]

The basic "pickle" (for me and many of us) is are you better of to have court ordered and (relatively) protected time for "unfiltered" access to kids, which she would get as well.

So, I would not be there to "protect" them but I would gain a level of freedom from crazymaking.

Right now, it is a clear "net positive" for everyone (including me) for me to be in the home and focusing on relationships with kids as my primary responsibility in life.

I'm a metrics guy, and if you set a timer to D6s "meltdowns" they are generally trending shorter, she is identifying her emotion and we are making progress talking through things ahead of time.

"It's ok to be sad that (fill in the blank) is leaving, Daddy will be with you while you are sad.  We can be sad and still go (fill in activity we need to do).

So, then as things start to turn  ":)o you think that you are getting excited about the next time you get to see (person that left)?  Wow... .that would be great if we get to do (fill in) with them when they come back later. 

Sure the meltdowns still happen... .but they don't take over large 30 minutes chunks of time. 

Last couple nights I've put girls to bed and there has been no crying.  Last night we "thought about pretty rainbows" as we were quiet in bed.

The balance I am attempting to strike is to be "fully aware" of the impact of what is going on, without "getting sucked in" to the drama.  I need to be aware to be able to make the best decision possible.

Thoughts? 

I agree, it can be hard to explain the dynamics.  If you have never been around a truly paranoid person and see how charming and engaging they are one day... .and then... ."poof"... .the other one shows up.  It would be much more interesting to discuss... .if it wasn't happening in my life.

FF

[formflier]

Whatever it takes to get her into meeting with your P is worth it. 

Yup... .and if "giving up things" keeps here there for rapport to be built.  I'm all over that.

It used to bug me to be "the identified patient", but I'll be honest.  I like a lot of the stuff I have learned in the past few months.  I feel more confident.

FF

[empath]

The basic "pickle" (for me and many of us) is are you better of to have court ordered and (relatively) protected time for "unfiltered" access to kids, which she would get as well.

So, I would not be there to "protect" them but I would gain a level of freedom from crazymaking.

Right now, it is a clear "net positive" for everyone (including me) for me to be in the home and focusing on relationships with kids as my primary responsibility in life.


That's where I had to come to in my own thinking with my daughter. She is scared to be with her dad alone (he might hurt himself or her), so I knew that I needed to step up my end to make sure that she feels safe. The best way that I can do that right now is to be in the home with her and not have legal entities deciding that he can have long periods of time with her by himself. He is okay with that, and I have always provided the majority of the parenting guidance for the kids.

[Notwendy]

FF, I can recall my own childhood growing up with an unpredictable parent.


I will say that I think it was in our best interests for my Dad to have been a constant presence in our lives. I think that if we were with Mom alone, she would have been stressed to a higher level. Maybe all would go well if we were behaving, but one stomach virus, or squabble over a toy could have disregulated her, and with kids that can happen at any time. Kids' behaviors and antics and needs don't occur on schedule.

Even if one parent is at work, the other one knows that he/she will be home eventually. There is more flexibility when both parents are not on a custody schedule.

Another consideration is that you have 8 kids! and that is a level of child care that takes a lot of parenting skills and as many hands as possible.

So, I do see the benefits of what you are doing. That said, my father did not have access to the information about BPD and co-dependency that we have now. The way we all coped was for him to enlist us as caretakers, enablers and eggshell walkers. That was the best he knew to do at the time. You know better.

If abuse were to occur at the level of serious harm to you, I imagine that this would affect a custody arrangement. Also, if the relationship is so toxic that it is affecting everyone, then this would have to be factored into the welfare of the children. .

[KateCat]

If abuse were to occur at the level of serious harm to you, I imagine that this would affect a custody arrangement. Also, if the relationship is so toxic that it is affecting everyone, then this would have to be factored into the welfare of the children. .

As the psychologist becomes more familiar with your family and its history, do you think she will be key to helping you determine the if-and-when of this decision? After everything you've been through over the past half-dozen years, it seems a tall order to anticipate that you yourself can objectively gauge what "serious harm to you" looks like.

So far it sounds as though you have a valuable guide in this particular mental health care professional. One who is both compassionate and not easily confused. One with decades of experience.

[formflier]

 
Yes... .the P knows what I "want" but also realizes... .and advises me... .that it is not all "just about me"

Step 1:  Stop letting kids see the wowzer dysfunction.   Mom screaming through door at me... .with door locked, kids watching her asking "why did Daddy lock the door"

So... .obviously I don't totally control this.  But I have to be the adult that nips this stuff way early... .

Step 2:  Realize that the influence from my wife's side is "neutral at best"... .toxic at worst.  When you count the numbers of divorces, affairs, estrangements... .and other whacky behavior... .it's incredible.  The P had me draw a "family tree of dysfunction"... .it really made me sad for my wife.

Also made me realize how blessed I was.  The weirdest thing on my side was an aunt that passed away from lung cancer because she smoked.  That's it... .smoking was the biggest vice.

On my mom's side there were some elderly women that were pretty grumpy/demanding in their old age.  Several went over 100 years old... .so that lasted a while.  That was the "boundaries" thing my parents did.  Those women didn't like to be told no (for instance "you have to come over and see me"... .we say no... .they try to use guilt)  

Anyway... .back to main point.

Yes... .I want a functional marriage... .but I also have a family to look after.  Hehe... .the Psychologist asked me to ponder the choice of lots of therapy for me... .versus lots for all 8 of my kids.  

Especially when I have the example of 3 nieces and nephews from my wife's sister... .she is divorced times 3... single mom.  1 is ruined at 18 years old... .drugs... arrests... etc etc.  1 is on fast track to ruin.  1 is still up in air.

So... .direct answer:  Yes P will be involved in helping me understand and evaluate any change in family structure... .certainly that is initiated by me.

More later.

FF

[KateCat]

Hehe... .the Psychologist asked me to ponder the choice of lots of therapy for me... .versus lots for all 8 of my kids.

Excellent! This lady really cuts to the chase. And she seems to do it in a compassionate way.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .imagine a grandma giving advice to her adult son... .

[empath]

Good parenting goes a long way. Thankfully,  my husband is pretty uninvolved in the kids lives, so I've been able to guide them. They still have effects of growing up with a parent who was abusive, but they are reasonably functional. Compared to my husband's brother's kids, they are ideal children.

[formflier]

Compared to my husband's brother's kids, they are ideal children.

I know exactly what you are talking about. 

I would suppose that some of what we are dealing with is "normal" rubbing points in a marriage as roles are redefined, add on top of that paranoia and BPDish traits. 


Update.  Tuesday midday I have my normal appointment with Psychologist. 

That evening the psychologist has time set aside for my wife and I to come by.  I'll be going even if my wife backs out.

Things have calmed (in large part) because I have chosen to focus on other things and leave "that" subject alone. 

I'll discuss with P on Tuesday and get coaching on the best way forward to invite her to come.

Wife said that "anytime after 4pm"... .that she didn't need any other advance notice.

We'll see.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Good luck, FF. Fingers crossed for you. And that it's been smooth sailing for a while--thanks to you not taking the bait or trying to have a "discussion," you might very well get lucky and she will go. I certainly hope so.

[Notwendy]

I'm all for flexibility in terms of marital roles. But is your wife receiving any positive feedback for her roles outside the home?

I am not of your religious community but I know several families similar to yours. Large, religious Christian families who prefer to home school their kids. They are mostly members of one church in our area that embraces these values. The model for these families is a stay at home mom, with dad at work.

Yours is different, and I get it- and I realize that this is the best situation for your family in the situation you are in. I have seen all kinds of arrangements work out between people. I know some great stay at home dads, but they are not members of this church. I think your arrangement is fine, but I am wondering if your wife gets any social reinforcement for it- if the main family model in her world, and church is a stay at home mom. With low self esteem, is this new role creating a sense of not being in the right place? Does she have any peers in her church who are also working mothers?

Something to think about- group expectations, family expectations ( if she was raised in a traditional one) may be influencing how she sees herself.

[formflier]

I'm all for flexibility in terms of marital roles. But is your wife receiving any positive feedback for her roles outside the home?
 

From me... .yes.  Lots of it. 

I don't have contact with her family anymore and she has pretty much stopped talking about them to me so I have no idea what feedback they are giving her.  Not my business anyway.

In the past they were open about portraying me as lazy (vice disabled) and her as a savior that is keeping a roof over our head and food on our table.

Yes... .actually have said this to my face a few times and I've heard about them saying this many more times.  Anyone want to guess some of the reasons that I don't talk to her side of the family much... .   

Correct, most traditional Christian families do the Dad working and Mom staying home.  My wife is open about wanting to go back to that.  Has demanding a couple times that I "tell her" to stop working.  I have politely allowed that it is her career and that I appreciate her efforts, I'm proud of her... etc etc... .but that it is not my place to "tell" her to do things about her career.

Generally... .her parents were traditional.  My view is that Dad worked his butt off to stay away from the Mom... .and to feed her insatiable appetite for "something better". 

We are going to Psychologist today after work.  There has been more weirdness this morning.

Will start a new thread about that and my responses to it.

Keep this thread going as well.



FF 

[Cat Familiar]

I think Notwendy is on to something here, FF. I'm wondering who her church peers are and if she has any acquaintanceships with any of the women there. Also since the Biblical counseling fell apart, has that impacted in any way how she might think she is perceived in the church?